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Mermaid Kassandra
02-12-2015, 12:09 PM
Guys did you saw the new pictures from Finfolk?

polyhymnia113
02-12-2015, 12:12 PM
Just did. Ummm...well, as it is sometimes said, imitation is the highest form of flattery, but seriously!?

Kishiko
02-12-2015, 12:52 PM
Guys did you saw the new pictures from Finfolk?

Its probably something someone ordered so....

Mermaid Evolet
02-12-2015, 12:55 PM
Guys did you saw the new pictures from Finfolk?

haha i KNEW this will be a hot topic.

But I don't think it is "stealing" or "copying" at all. The Mantis Shrimp is a real animal so this design doesn't belong to ANYONE.
And you know Finfolk did the Lionfish design befor Raven and no one said anything. Like the Mantis Shrimp it is a real animal so no copyright here...

So people PLEASE stay calm :group hug:

AniaR
02-12-2015, 01:41 PM
Yeah animals can't really be copied but by golly every new unique thing Raven adds or changes to her tops seems to be copied pretty fast lately. Seems she keeps pushing it to be as unique as possible and once the pics hit the internet there ya go. Until Raven did it people always did the same old things. Now the Atlantis style gets copied, her lace idea, her fins added to tops.

I'm not as concerned with tail colors as people doing everything they can to imitate all aspects of her totally unique style. But that's me. And we all know how the topic of copying goes down on MerNetwork [emoji14]

But yeah it be great if we didn't hop on the whole designed based on real animals = copying train

Kishiko
02-12-2015, 01:57 PM
I really don't think finfolk was copying at all! Like what are you going to say "no I won't make this tail you want based off an animal because someone based a tail off the same animal"


Sent from my shellphone using Mertalk

Mermaid Evolet
02-12-2015, 02:34 PM
Yeah animals can't really be copied but by golly every new unique thing Raven adds or changes to her tops seems to be copied pretty fast lately. Seems she keeps pushing it to be as unique as possible and once the pics hit the internet there ya go. Until Raven did it people always did the same old things. Now the Atlantis style gets copied, her lace idea, her fins added to tops.

^ This!! Totally agree.

polyhymnia113
02-12-2015, 02:44 PM
Definitely, you can't say replication of an animal or other naturally occurring thing is copying, I agree. I also agree that artists being inspired by artists they admire and creating similar things is a very natural occurrence and isn't copying per se. Also, there is much truth in the statement that everything is derivative. It is a beautiful piece of work; FF make lovely tails and designs. I do however find myself raising an eyebrow at the slight familiarity of the general shape of that fluke.

Green Tea Mermaid
02-12-2015, 03:39 PM
Definitely, you can't say replication of an animal or other naturally occurring thing is copying, I agree. I also agree that artists being inspired by artists they admire and creating similar things is a very natural occurrence and isn't copying per se. Also, there is much truth in the statement that everything is derivative. It is a beautiful piece of work; FF make lovely tails and designs. I do however find myself raising an eyebrow at the slight familiarity of the general shape of that fluke.

The fact that the tail was based off a Mantis Shrimp is not what strikes me (I am sure we all remember the manadrain fish argument a while back). You can not expect that no one person can own an animal design, but it's just as polyhymnia stated, it's the fluke design that really got my thinking.

Mermaid Kassandra
02-12-2015, 04:05 PM
Yes totally agree with all of you guys.





But just to take an example thinking about the lion fish design: Raven's was totally different from Finfolk's one.





In my opinion I it's just too similar, too much.


I would love to see the same animal but replicated in the artist's own style it would be much more beautiful don't you think?


It would be just like it is in nature: Plenty of animals of the same kind but all of them unique in their own style.


After all taking two people both blonde with black eye you won't ever say they're the same or similar in something, but they're both humans.





That is something ok I think, it's not the thing that they're making a mantis shrimp tail but the fact that they should be more original.


So I'm not saying that they're copying but they should come up with their own style, it was their new way of thinking a mermaid design that made them popular at the beginning... They should go on in that way.





They made a great shot with their own unique style with the sea dragon so original and one of a kind! (and we all know that Raven made the first sea dragon but they're completely different one from the other and this made both designs spectacular and unique even if both inspired by the same thing!).


I don't condemn anyone but if you want the same inspiration it's ok but do your own design.
I think it's also more fair with the others tail makers.





That's my though.

Kishiko
02-12-2015, 04:13 PM
Definitely, you can't say replication of an animal or other naturally occurring thing is copying, I agree. I also agree that artists being inspired by artists they admire and creating similar things is a very natural occurrence and isn't copying per se. Also, there is much truth in the statement that everything is derivative. It is a beautiful piece of work; FF make lovely tails and designs. I do however find myself raising an eyebrow at the slight familiarity of the general shape of that fluke.

Actually this is their new leafy sea dragon fluke they designed BEFORE they started working on this. It's the same fluke as their entry to the merfest tail competition.


Sent from my shellphone using Mertalk

Mermaidmechanic
02-12-2015, 05:14 PM
I haven't seen the whole tail yet, but so far it doesn't really look too similar to me.

Lily
02-12-2015, 05:27 PM
If you read the comments on FB on one of the images, the person who ordered the tail brings this issue up. She ordered a mantis shrimp tail like a year ago before pics of Raven's mantis came out. I do think it's a little off that FF's looks so similar and was painted so recently, after Merbella's came out... But as others have said, it's an animal so any two things inspired by that animal are bound to look similar. I've seen probably a hundred leopard print fabrics in my life and damned if they didn't all look pretty much the same because a leopard's spots aren't really up for interpretation.

I'll wait and pass judgement after we see more pics, but I find it hard to believe that FF (which has always struck me as a tail maker with a lot of integrity) would intentionally rip off another artist.

Mermaid Kassandra
02-12-2015, 05:37 PM
Yes you both are right it's better to stay and wait for the whole tail to be completed and see how it will turn out! ;)

Mer-Crazy
02-12-2015, 05:40 PM
I agree with Mechanic, they've only released the fluke so far and I don't think it looks anything like Raven's design and I'm usually all aboard the 'they're copying Merbella's train' but I don't take issue with this one. They are very different takes on the Mantis shrimp. They're using the colours in a completely different way and the design is different. Their's is very blue with only hints of the warmer colours and has multiple eyes each in their own section. Raven's is all warm colours with only two eyes placed just on the fluke, the design isn't working around them like with Finfolk.

27334 27335

Merman Arion
02-12-2015, 05:54 PM
I agree with Mechanic, they've only released the fluke so far and I don't think it looks anything like Raven's design and I'm usually all aboard the 'they're copying Merbella's train' but I don't take issue with this one. They are very different takes on the Mantis shrimp. They're using the colours in a completely different way and the design is different. Their's is very blue with only hints of the warmer colours and has multiple eyes each in their own section. Raven's is all warm colours with only two eyes placed just on the fluke, the design isn't working around them like with Finfolk.

^ This! Thank you Selene and MermaidMechanic :clap:

Honestly, can people just WAIT for the tail to be finished before making assumptions?? I would really appreciate that.
This is the second tail already that Finfolk is suspiciously accused of copying Merbella before the tail is even complete and publicly shown... :doh:

Yulia
02-12-2015, 05:56 PM
There are many different mandarin-fish tails too, that look similar, but still are unique.

I honestly don't think these two tails are that similar at all, not even flukewise.


http://utterberg.net/upload/img/201502122254-Skärmavbild_2015-02-12_kl._22.52.27.pnghttps://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10991245_433200373510573_9034811332157146768_n.jpg ?oh=fb107ab22b19029bc4921dfb1a359de5&oe=556013E1&__gda__=1435915659_d955c10f048f6898ccb01f0f1900148 2https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t31.0-8/10710272_788491614540254_1706253786158085541_o.jpg

Elle
02-12-2015, 06:00 PM
Honestly the whole "They're copying me" thing is a thin line. Sometimes if bloody obvious where the design came from and other times there is just a similar colour scheme or appearance.

It's like the fact that Raven came out with this top about a week ago, there was a gold one made back in December also

27336


I also remember that recently someone else on here made a top using the same kind of seaweed, but it was gold (difference being that Raven's is more ....."swirly" in the leafy shape, the mer on here stuck to the original shape). I don't know who made it so I can't go find the image, so I also don't know who did it first, but no one jumped up and down when it happened to say that either the mer from here or Raven was the copy catfish

The "copy" stuff really does get out of hand sometimes.

Merman Arion
02-12-2015, 06:20 PM
Honestly the whole "They're copying me" thing is a thin line. Sometimes if bloody obvious where the design came from and other times there is just a similar colour scheme or appearance.

It's like the fact that Raven came out with this top about a week ago, there was a gold one made back in December also

I also remember that recently someone else on here made a top using the same kind of seaweed, but it was gold (difference being that Raven's is more ....."swirly" in the leafy shape, the mer on here stuck to the original shape). I don't know who made it so I can't go find the image, so I also don't know who did it first, but no one jumped up and down when it happened to say that either the mer from here or Raven was the copy catfish

The "copy" stuff really does get out of hand sometimes.

I'm assuming you are talking about the gold kelp top made in this thread :

http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?9852-Theobromine-s-sea-serpent-silicone-tail!/page3&highlight=kelp

Gotta love the irony of the situation here. It's a gold kelp top made by Theobromine who happens to be... A Finfolk mermaid ;) :p

Green Tea Mermaid
02-12-2015, 06:21 PM
I don't personally think the fluke looks anything like Merbella's Mantis Shrimp. There is a clearly a difference in color arrangement too. The FF fluke actually reminds me of Merbella's take on she creature fluke with a few differences.

Lily
02-12-2015, 06:24 PM
Gotta love the irony of the situation here. It's a gold kelp top made by Theobromine who happens to be... A Finfolk mermaid ;) :p

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/lol_picard_star_trek_tng.gif

Winged Mermaid
02-12-2015, 06:39 PM
I'm assuming you are talking about the gold kelp top made in this thread :

http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?9852-Theobromine-s-sea-serpent-silicone-tail!/page3&highlight=kelp

Gotta love the irony of the situation here. It's a gold kelp top made by Theobromine who happens to be... A Finfolk mermaid ;) :p

Also FYI Cyanea (her mermaid name) talked to me about her making that top when we first met in person over a year ago. We discussed it at length because she wanted to mold it in a way that she could make it for different sized bras, and I was super excited about that becuase most Merbella tops are super cleavage heavy for a D cup mermaid like myself, and would love a kelp top.
I actually had had the exact same idea for a top but am way too timid to work sculpt something like that, haha. I had actually contacted Greg about where to find kelp to mold around the Puget Sound (since he lived here for so long) but he said I'd probably have to ask some divers cause it doesn't really wash up like it does in CA. She and I had a laugh over us having the same idea, great minds think alike and all that.

She just wanted to take it slow with working with silicone, starting out on really small projects and working her way up, which she has been with making her little stingrays and creatures and moving on from there. She was actually really surprised when she brought her top over to my place a while back to show me, and I mentioned that it similar to one Raven made- she had no idea Raven had made a top like that. She was actually really bummed out becuase she was afraid people would think she was copying Raven. But I can tell you that she had this idea and sketches way before Raven came out with hers. She wasn't trying to copy anyone, she just didn't get around to making it until later :)

AniaR
02-12-2015, 06:51 PM
yeah those two tops looks totally different to me. That's not really what I am referring to.

I am talking about people taking specific elements unique to raven.

Like the atlantis molding she puts on the top of the top

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/p417x417/10698463_10205730591923690_843401010317116750_n.jp g?oh=0b78b9388363716c8c1cca00bf9d8d1b&oe=555932DF&__gda__=1431847962_2d3631f23aa95ca079484719c5b21aa 9

Using lace and rope in this specific way and people now doing exactly that. (I ran into someone at merfest who literally said "I just loved Raven's design so much I wanted one myself" and it took me a second to realize what they were implying and it was this)

https://scontent-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10919057_10205710215974304_2243022823703114328_n.j pg?oh=029ed9593fb8556d2123b5fa206136ad&oe=55943A6B

The side fins on tops

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10538479_10205150743827850_5562392652604816365_n.j pg?oh=30812cbabcadc0c6514954939cec57a3&oe=5552FBA5&__gda__=1431674352_b169e5937efcb8d87da5030d1f56388 f

it's not quite the same as making a shell top, she clearly goes out of her way to create things unique to the community and then people just try and make things that look as exact as possible, it's just lame.

but FYI Raven has no beef with finfolk over the tail. When you put the tails side by side it's pretty clear they're different. Like I said to me, more often it's these specific details like the intricate work she puts on her tops that people try to recreate and sell that bums me out.



but since she watermarked it Imma spam this here hahaha

https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t31.0-8/q85/s960x960/10847346_10205913718621743_7514447488604092276_o.j pg


I know people wanted to see the full thing. She has been working on this thing for over a year because it's a personal tail so she could only ever work on it in bits and pieces. Raven does a lot of stuff and just never has time to post things. We chatted about it a lot the past few months and she's been making a real effort (if you havent noticed you should check out her FB page) to post more of her stuff that's she's making :)

Yulia
02-12-2015, 07:03 PM
I do think, that even with all the "copying" and people trying to do things that look that other things...
That each creator do have their own style and look, whatever people try to do to make something look like someone else's, they can't steal someones hands.

The lionfish tail is a true work of art, it's incredible.

AniaR
02-12-2015, 07:15 PM
yup. People ALWAYS try to pin finfolk against raven and it annoys the heck out of her lol. we all know that most tail makers do their best to put their own spin on things, and we all know there's really only one who outright makes an effort to totally copy ;) I think people just like the tail maker wars sometimes. And clients are always going to more protective of their tail maker.

I am just super proud of Raven and happy to have seen her journey since the start. She really had to start from the bottom and the amount of growth is so impressive. She defines this field time and time again. She sets the bar. I am so excited to see some of the projects she's told me about come to fruition.

Elle
02-12-2015, 07:27 PM
I'm assuming you are talking about the gold kelp top made in this thread :

http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?9852-Theobromine-s-sea-serpent-silicone-tail!/page3&highlight=kelp

Gotta love the irony of the situation here. It's a gold kelp top made by Theobromine who happens to be... A Finfolk mermaid ;) :p

YES THAT'S THE ONE. Like obviously the tops are different though, but nothing ever came of it like some drama around copying seems to happen.



http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/lol_picard_star_trek_tng.gif

This GIF :lol: :lol:

Mermaid Nessie
02-12-2015, 07:38 PM
yup. People ALWAYS try to pin finfolk against raven and it annoys the heck out of her lol. we all know that most tail makers do their best to put their own spin on things, and we all know there's really only one who outright makes an effort to totally copy ;) I think people just like the tail maker wars sometimes. And clients are always going to more protective of their tail maker.

I am just super proud of Raven and happy to have seen her journey since the start. She really had to start from the bottom and the amount of growth is so impressive. She defines this field time and time again. She sets the bar. I am so excited to see some of the projects she's told me about come to fruition.

I agree, both Raven and the twins are amazing artists, who both put their own spins on designs. I'm very excited to see the entire mantis shrimp tail, I think it's awesome to see different people's interruptions and designs. I think people should withhold opinions and not jump to conclusions over a picture of a fluke, wait until we can see the entire thing!

AniaR
02-12-2015, 11:32 PM
Raven was the first to make any kind of sea weed silicone top and variations. But honestly to me

http://mernetwork.com/index/attachment.php?attachmentid=27336&d=1423777989

looks nothing like

http://mernetwork.com/index/attachment.php?attachmentid=26384&d=1420607468

Like at all.. lol

when meanwhile there are EXACT REPLICAS of her tops. We are talking down to the detail.

AniaR
02-12-2015, 11:33 PM
ps I think Theobromine's top is SUPER original and amazing and reminds me of the seaweed I played with as a kid and I am sad I somehow missed that thread haha.

Mermaid Harmony
02-13-2015, 01:54 AM
I feel like neither the twins nor raven has time to copy. Like they are both so swamped in work, swimming and being, they just go, things will be similar, just like mermaids might have similar performances, but it's just happenstance. :-)

Elle
02-13-2015, 01:59 AM
I feel like neither the twins nor raven has time to copy. Like they are both so swamped in work, swimming and being, they just go, things will be similar, just like mermaids might have similar performances, but it's just happenstance. :-)


Yes, sometimes these things just happen and I think the catch cry of copying needs to be used less. Admittedly there was the issue of the Russian tailmaker where it was completely and utterly obvious but other wise sometimes I think we all need to give people the benefit of the doubt before we jump on that bandwagon

Meronica
02-13-2015, 02:46 AM
Neither of these tailmakers have any reason to copy one another. I think that it could definitely be argued that Finfolk and Merbella tails are the best tails one can purchase, and they both have very unique designs and styles.

Both of their mantis shrimp tails are lovely, and the only thing I'm butthurt about is that neither of them are for me. [emoji22]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Theobromine
02-13-2015, 03:10 AM
*is late to party, finds picture of self in Merbellas thread* tee hee I'm famous now roffle

Yeah, I made ze Macrocystis pyrifera kelp top, and I'm not bummed about Raven making one, I was just afraid people would accuse me of copying because people always get accused of copying Raven! But now that I see her design, it definitely looks different than mine. Hers is really pretty too, but mine is more Me. I WAS trying to be the first to do a top based on this particular type of kelp, but I'm not naive enough to think no one else would ever think of it. In fact, the summer before last when I visited Abby and Bryn I even talked about it with them then, and they said they'd thought of the same idea too, so I was afraid THEY might get around to it before me. And here I am also trying to work on a tail design that's off the fucking WALL and I'm still afraid other people are going to produce similar tails before I finish mine!!

As for the mantis shrimp tails, I did do a double-take at first, but then looking at them side by side they look very different. Both beautiful in their own ways. Having met Abby and Bryn, I highly doubt they would ever copy a design. I think both the twins and Raven have some of the highest standards in the business. All the tails are pretty.

Mermaid Coralia
02-13-2015, 03:19 AM
MAN i thought my idea for a leafy sea dragon tail was still original and hadn't been done yet. POOP. Oh well, mine will still have my own personal flare ;)

Finfolk Productions
02-14-2015, 11:36 PM
27422


Hey all, we thought we'd post a special preview of our client's mantis inspired tail (it isn't yet completed) to calm any waters regarding "copying" or "imitation." This design was ordered from us on March 28th, 2014, almost five months before Raven released her client's mantis design. (Which was a bit of a bummer for us - we were excited to be the first to release a mantis inspired tail, we just weren't fast enough for our client. Who has been incredibly patient with us over the insanity of our past year, by the way, what with our move to Hawaii!)

We want you all to know, directly from us *that we have an open line of communication with Raven.* She has reached out to us and we have reached out to her on several occasions over the last couple of years. We have the UTMOST respect for each other as artists, and have had two conversations in the last month alone about how harmful and unnecessary it is for our companies to be pitted against each other by the community. We both have plenty of business, loyal clients, and very different styles. We WANT to see the other succeed, and as far as we are concerned, there is no need for a competitive attitude. We all have plenty of stressors on our plate, so the idea that we have to watch our backs is something that none of us need. We think it is loyal and honorable when clients and fans defend an artists work, we simply ask that you consider all possibilities before jumping to a negative conclusion. AND, when in doubt, you can always ASK US. (We are humans too - and nice ones, even!) :)

Please keep a few things in mind...

1) The client is the designer. If we are asked to create an exact copy of someone else's tail, the answer is always "no." But when someone is paying you for a product, and THEY are inspired by a certain design or concept, it is not fair of us to deny them something that the community may perceive as unoriginal. Our client ordered her mantis design far before a mantis tail even existed (as far as we know.) Would it have been fair to her to say "Another company has done this concept now, to save ourselves from backlash, we will not create this for you." No.

2) We are artists first, tailmakers second. Believe it or not, we had no idea who Mertailor, Merbella, or Mike VanDahl, etc were when we first began making tails. We took it on as a project for our creative director at our festival, and that's how Finfolk came into being. (A snip-it of our history for you!) We kept on with tails because we absolutely fell in love with the artform, and the fact that mermaids are a limitless source of creativity. Copying would be downright dull for us, and widely unnecessary, as we walked into tailmaking with blank slates. We have SO many of our own, exciting ideas. Give us some credit, eh, eh, eh? (Our Minnesotan accents have yet to wash away in the Hawaiian waters.)

3) Some "overlap" when it comes to tails is practically impossible. Every tail has scales, every tail has fins, every tail has a fluke. Flukes are generally triangle-ish in shape and scales are generally round or teardrop or pointed. Many tails are inspired by nature, or certain films, books, or characters. When there is so much being produced by several different companies, coincidental similarities DO happen. (Though are avoided at all costs, because it typically ignites this type of wild-drama-llama conversation, which makes us cower in our studio at night and sing to our sad little molds that we worked so hard on.)

4) Again, we have an open door policy with Raven. I won't speak for her, but based upon our conversations, there is nothing but mutual respect and understanding. We approached her just last week about something that a client wanted added (a larger scale belly plate, similar to her dragon scale concept) that we were somewhat uncomfortable with reproducing. She agreed that as long as they looked different, it was fine by her. It is not an upgrade we are currently offering or promoting, out of respect for her. We please ask that you respect our respect for one another.

Thanks for reading, and we hope you guys will watch for the finished mantis design on our page!

Mer-love,
Abby

PearlieMae
02-15-2015, 12:36 AM
Brava, ladies!

Lily
02-15-2015, 12:50 AM
I love that they used the term "drama llama." You go, Finfolk!

MermaidMichelle
02-15-2015, 12:57 AM
Well said and fine work, Finfolk! :mermaid kiss: I especially like what you are doing about the dragon designs; you are showing considerable integrity to resist temptation when they are becoming increasingly popular, and I am curious as to how a Finfolk dragon will turn out!

Vicky Mermaid
02-15-2015, 04:05 AM
*APPLAUSE Well said FinFolk lady's. In the end there is only one thing everyone wants. Happy mermaids and merman

Green Tea Mermaid
02-15-2015, 12:11 PM
:clap: :clap: :clap: Well done Finfolk gals! I just want to say that it speaks a lot about your characters that you took the time out of schedule, which must be endlessly crazy with work, to clear the air. I can not say I am not guilty of raising an eyebrow from time to time, but I can say I will not be doing it again. It's great to know that you guys have such respect for one another. Again thank you! :)

Mermaid Alea
02-17-2015, 09:44 PM
Hey Finfolk great comment! I love the mantis tail you are working on and I think both yours and Raven's are each very unique and I love them both. I can always tell your style apart from the Merbella's style, so don't worry I think you are doing a great job being unique artists. There are bound to be similarities with tail companies just like with clothing brands. Keep up the good work! :clap:

AniaR
02-17-2015, 10:24 PM
I think the comment is great but I think it be best if we could move finfolks post and replies to the finfolk thread? I know it was posted here in response to concerns raised but this is my merbellas thread for merbellas. :) and I think the post works just fine in the finfolk thread.

I started this thread ( and I believe others started other tail maker threads) to post products, updates, and have a place for clients to show their stuff. While we have a finfolk thread and a merbellas thread don't forget they each have an entire board for tail maker discussions. I think it be great if people in future could stick to semi off topic stuff or debates in different threads. No offense to finfolk ladies at all because I believe it needed to be said, it's just now when you come into merbellas threads the most recent pages are all finfolk. I dont think it happens to many other tail makers but people love to stick finfolk in here and merbellas in theirs and it usually just leads to drama or derailing.

Plus I know it really upsets raven when people pin other tail makers against her and shed rather clients come see her stuff inthethread and not pinning her against someone else.

Mermaid Coralia
02-17-2015, 10:25 PM
Hey Finfolk great comment! I love the mantis tail you are working on and I think both yours and Raven's are each very unique and I love them both. I can always tell your style apart from the Merbella's style, so don't worry I think you are doing a great job being unique artists. There are bound to be similarities with tail companies just like with clothing brands. Keep up the good work! :clap:
This. I couldn't say it better :) I can totally tell which is which, and I know you both have too much integrity and not even enough time to copy each other! lol But, getting back on subject, I hope to see more of Raven's work soon. I absolutely love her style and work, I have a great tail design to challenge her once I save up enough money ;) I know Raven can pull it off though, It'll be a few years before I could get it. lol

Mermaid Danielle
02-22-2015, 04:41 PM
Well said, Finfolk!