Tilikum in worse condition

[Jeblily]

Many of you may not like this post, but from a logical perspective I think we may need to evaluate the effects anti-sea world propaganda is having on the orca whales within the park. Currently sales for sea world have fallen by 25.4 million, and trainers cannot swim or be in the water with the whales. Seaworld has stated that they want to expand the orca's habitat and work on improving the conditions for their care. I disagree with the practice of keeping orca whales entirely but to take steps against seaworld in the current manner is only further injuring the lives of the animals. With decreasing funds for seaworld the quality of care for their animals can only decrease. We want to redirect the treatment of the whales not destroy seaworld.

Seaworld has done an incredible amount of good in public education of sealife, it is difficult to promote legislation protecting marine creatures without a personal connection. Seaworld has fostered love and passion in so many individuals for sealife, and has many positive values. They work in rehabilitation programs, provide homes for many shelter animals, and does work in education programs to a large extent.

I don't condone many of their actions but for many employees their intentions are not evil. Unfortunately seaworld is a business and their animal "assets" are a financial burden and cost.
The care of the killer whales is extremely costly and if sales continue to fall instead of relocating the whales to a marine shelter/ sanctuary where they can be integrated back into the wild they will be shipped to even poorer facilities than seaworld and released with poor chance of survival.

I am most concerned about the mental state of the whales. Human interaction is vital to stimulate and maintain the health of these animals within the park. They need enrichment and many whales formed personal bonds with their trainers. Tilikum was secluded from other whales and trainers for a mistake he might not have understood. He is a HUGE whale and needs all the stimulation he can receive in his small environment. These are trained whales and for some of the captive bred orcas human contact and love is something they have always known. Human's are important in their daily lives, and while not natural or as good as wild life, necessary for their survival within the park. Tilikum is in a depression, he is inactive and this could easily lead to mental diseases beyond what may already exist. These whales have known a trained life for so long, that loosing this human interaction is a punishment.

Watch this video and you will see how much the trainers love the orcas and view the enrichment that they provide. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCdE0EcYtc4

I have personally been in the shamu 'pool'... it is small, it is bare, and I wish wholeheartedly they could have something better. I don't view these whales as evil creatures, but any animals under certain stresses can face this. Tilikum's life has been fraught with hardship, and his behavior is unimaginably positive towards humans after these experiences. These animals are huge and powerful, they are predators, and yet they interact very well with humans. Their physical characteristics however could mean that a whale could simply want to play and still injure or kill a human. This is a fact that will always exist, and unfortunately I think it is inevitable. People can and will be hurt in this industry. Having said this I would personally work with any of the whales as a trainer if possible, I believe the risk would not be any greater than driving. I would dream that these whale's could be free, however short term this is not feasible. Until that time period we should make the loves of these whales as best as possible.

I have interacted with the staff at seaworld who work with the killer whales, I have been in the water with the trainers. I have talked to the vets, dietitians, etc. they care and they want the best for the whales too.

Doctors used to believe that babies didn't feel pain and would not use anesthesia when operating, trainers believed they were giving the whales the best care possible. Seaworld management could easily have believed the whales were in good health. Captivity is horrible for killer whales and I hope capture and captive breeding of the whales would stop, but seaworld is not evil. It may have done evil, but that was not its goal. Please support movements for better care of the whales and not the destruction of seaworld. A park could always become better and animal husbandry can always improve, but the destruction of a park that has done so much good and has the potential for more should not be destroyed.

Some of you may be angry reading this and i don't claim to be all knowing or correct in my analysis of the situation. I just want to share a different perspective from so much of what is being perpetuated by the media.

[PhaylennMurúch]

pretty sure Tillikum has a history of attacking people. This has been going on for YEARS. Orcas are smart animals, he knew.

The whales should be freed, IMHO

[Echidna]

Sorry, but Seaworld can be destroyed for all I care.

There are better ways to engender love and consideration for the environment and animals than a loud, money-grabbing circus where intelligent animals have to perform like the silly apes known as "humans".

With excellent TV documentaries, circuses and zoos are nowadays obsolete.
There are also safaris and whalewatching programs for those who want closer interaction.

Dolphins and whales have interacted with whalewatchers in a friendly manner often.
Let them decide if they want human contact or not.

[Mermaid Freyja]

...I don't condone many of their actions but for many employees their intentions are not evil. Unfortunately seaworld is a business and their animal "assets" are a financial burden and cost.
The care of the killer whales is extremely costly and if sales continue to fall instead of relocating the whales to a marine shelter/ sanctuary where they can be integrated back into the wild they will be shipped to even poorer facilities than seaworld and released with poor chance of survival.

I am most concerned about the mental state of the whales. Human interaction is vital to stimulate and maintain the health of these animals within the park. They need enrichment and many whales formed personal bonds with their trainers. Tilikum was secluded from other whales and trainers for a mistake he might not have understood. He is a HUGE whale and needs all the stimulation he can receive in his small environment. These are trained whales and for some of the captive bred orcas human contact and love is something they have always known. Human's are important in their daily lives, and while not natural or as good as wild life, necessary for their survival within the park. Tilikum is in a depression, he is inactive and this could easily lead to mental diseases beyond what may already exist. These whales have known a trained life for so long, that loosing this human interaction is a punishment.

^This.
While I think think Seaworld needs to *Drastically* change its methods and its approach to educating & inspiring people to care for sea life, I have to agree with Jeblily. This may get a bit lengthy...
While I think Seaworld as it stands now must end, we can't just pull the rug out from under them so quickly.
That will only hurt the existing captive animals. This is something that needs to be gradual, but it needs to start happening NOW. What pisses me off about Seaworld right now, is that they seem to be dragging their feet in that regard. That is of course, affected by a sudden lack of funds due to the poor image they now have. Even so, they could do well to launch a whole new, very public strategy of absolute change. If they did a total 360 and began showing us a new focus on actual conservation and rehabilitation, the public support both socially and financially would be huge.
I want to see them succeed in fostering care and conservation for these animals in the wild, to stop bringing in new captives, and create an ideal (as best as there can be under the circumstances) space for their current/remaining captive whales and dolphins.

It's like Jeblily said; these particular whales and dolphins have formed bonds, have become dependent on their humans, and may not be mentally or emotionally able to be suddenly released into the wild cold turkey (for lack of a better term).
Seaworld should reform itself into a conservation and rehabilitation center that is open to the public, so that people are given a chance to see just how important these creatures are to all of us.
We not only need to be educating the public, but we need to inspire a sense of urgency and passion in people with regard to actually saving our oceans and the life within it.
Simply pointing fingers and calling for heads to roll is an understandable reaction, but it accomplishes nothing and drastically hurts the current captive animals.
What we should be asking ourselves is; "What did we do today to begin changing things?"
No matter how small, did you do something to help?

Ideally, I'd love to see Seaworld become a place where smaller whales and dolphins that have been injured, or recent captives, are rehabilitated and released back into the wild. I dream of a day when perhaps, Seaworld and The Sea Shepherd team up to stop the murder and capture of tens of thousands of dolphins and whales in the cove of Taiji Japan each year. That would be just one huge leap to saving not only our oceans, but our own future.
xoxoxo

[Meronica]

Jeblily and Freyja convey my thoughts most accurately. Sea World does a large amount of marine mammal rescue and rehabilitation and destroying the organization is not a "win" for marine mammals by any means.

I hope that they become more transparent and work on improving the quality of life for their non-releasable animals.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mermaidmechanic]

I also disagree with breaking SeaWorld. It does a lot of good. They still do a lot of great things for oceans and ocean life; loosing SeaWorld could cause a rift between humans and our sympathy for ocean life in further generations. I don't trust documentaries to do a good job of that anymore; did you see the bullshit mocumentry discovery launched on giant sharks? It was very counter productive. I actually garnered most of my respect for ocean life from visiting SeaWorld as a child.

[Mary Marine]

Of course, the question then becomes how do you convince SeaWorld to change? Because so far the negative publicity and reduced number of park visitors hasn't caused anything to change in the care of their orcas and dolphins, as far as I've heard. I doubt they are going to spend more money to improve their lives when less money is coming in. Ocean research aside, they are a big business, with all the greed that comes with it. So how does one convince a business that we will patronize them again IF they change how they do business?

Maybe I'm too cynical, but if SeaWorld did stop the whale shows the orcas would probably end up in even crappier conditions, at which point SeaWorld would say they had no choice because we FORCED them. :rolleyes:

It's like Mermaid Freyja said, they need to do a BIG publicity campaign to show their new image...too bad they don't have one yet. :doh:

[Mermaid Alea]

I agree with Jeblily, Mermaid Freyja, Meronica, and Mermaidmechanic. I understand some people are 100% against zoos and places like SeaWorld. No mater what, captivity is always not going to be like being in the wild. You just can't give a captive animal the whole world. You can however give captive animals a good variety in their diet, stimulation which consists of toys, landscaping, other animals of the same or of different species, etc. If SeaWorld can, it would be nice to include underwater features for the whales such as fake rock areas to swim through, a platform with a seal toy on it that the whales could tip over to get to the seal toy and maybe the seal toy is actually formed out of frozen fish and fish blood.

Even if you try to slowly release the captive whales into the wild, there are many situations you just can't prepare them for. Teaching them how to hunt might be one of the easier things since they already should have that instinct and you can put live fish in with them and they should learn to catch the fish. What you can't exactly teach them is how to find places where there is a bounty of fish. Since these whales are used to people, unfortunately this could mean that they could get too close to people and many bad things could come from that. They could be killed, etc. Another thing that would be hard to prepare them for is if they encounter wild orcas. A captive raised male orca could get seriously hurt by a wild male orca. I figure they wouldn't know the rules of being an orca. I will explain what I mean by this using my birds as an example.

I have this peacock, Peep, that I hatched out and raised. Peep imprinted to me, meaning he thinks I am his mother. I tried to teach him how to be a peacock by teaching him how to eat, drink, fly, etc. But there are complex social things that you just can't teach an animal. When Peep was a year old he was released into the aviary with the adult peafowl. He did not know there was such a thing as social hierarchy. Because of this, he was kicked at by the alpha peafowl because he was not submissive to them. As Peep matured and reached breeding age, he became a threat to the alpha peacock. Unfortunately for Peep, he does not know how to fight. So he would get spurred, kicked at, jumped on, get feather picked, etc and then he learned that he could run and hide in the dog box until the alpha peacock had calmed down. Peep has had to learn the hard way what it means to be a real peacock. He was raised by people and loves people, and shows less interest in his own kind. This sort of thing could be a big issue facing captive whales.

[AniaR]

conservationist rick o barry has stepped up and tried to buy it on multiple recent occasions so he could treat the whales and transform it. (been documented on The Cove facebook page) Seaworld has been blocking any environmental group from helping. They are actively contributing to the state of the whales by refusing outside help.

[Echidna]

They don't want help for the whales.
They want to run their business as they see fit.

And they sure as heck don't want more publicity about how bad it really is behind the scenes, thus their denial to let in any "outsiders" from environmenalist groups.

[Mermaid Freyja]

conservationist rick o barry has stepped up and tried to buy it on multiple recent occasions so he could treat the whales and transform it. (been documented on The Cove facebook page) Seaworld has been blocking any environmental group from helping. They are actively contributing to the state of the whales by refusing outside help.

Ugh, gods that is heartbreaking to hear, and absolutely maddening :mad:
It just makes one feel so helpless. It's like seeing a neighbor abuse a pet and get away with it, even after you call authorities and try to stop it.
All we can do now is continue to raise the issue, and make the average park customer aware enough to make informed decisions about Seaworld. But like I said above; I don't want this bad publicity to hurt the animals they have currently. It's going to take a lot more than conservation and animal welfare groups banging their drums.
*sigh* :-\

[AptaMer]

pretty sure Tillikum has a history of attacking people. This has been going on for YEARS. Orcas are smart animals, he knew.

The whales should be freed, IMHO

Using Tilikum as an example, he was born in late 1981 or early 1982. He was captured on November 9, 1983, a juvenile a little bit less than 2 years old (orcas take about 15 years to mature, to give you a perspective on how young he was).

He never had a chance to learn suvival skills from his mother's pod, and he's lived in seaside pens and tanks for three decades now, and while he's very powerful, he's in terrible shape for an orca. Even if he could find and join a pod, he would be unable to make a living in the wild. Setting him free would simply be a faster death sentence than the one captivity in isolation is currently imposing on him.

Also, the average lifespan of male orcas in the wild is approximately thrity years, with the oldest male on record living to 59 years. Tilikum is one who has beaten the odds and lived a natural lifespan (most captive males die younger than 30) but he's now an old whale, sort of the equivalent of a human in their seventies or eighties. The whole thing is sad to see. At this point perhaps all we can do is accept that these animals are tragic casualties of people's arrogance from years gone by.

[Echidna]

That poor orca really has had the most miserable life, and he protested against it the only way he could.
I feel very sorry for him.

Try to picture yourself in his place for a moment:
You've grown old in a tiny prison cell, surrounded by the species you hate most.

If you had the choice, what would you do?
Stay in that prison cell for a few years more and then die, or leave it and be free to swim the real ocean, even if it's just for a very short time before you die?

I know what I would do.

[Mermaid Mystery]

The whales should be freed, IMHO

I have been involved a zoological park my entire and am currently volunteering, and let me tell you, that is NOT the right way to go. Tilikum would almost certainly die, and could be a possible threat to humans. You cannot just free a whale like that, he has spent almost his entire life in captivity and has no idea what the wild is like anymore.
Although I don't like Seaworld one bit, I'd rather them keep the animals than release them into certain death.
I have heard of success stories, keep in mind I do not work with marine life and it may be different from what I have experience with.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mermaid Mystery]

seriously I am so freaking sick of all this free Tilly bullshark.
it almost certainly won't work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AniaR]

Good thing that's not the plan of any of the activists trying to buy SeaWorld.

[SeaGlass Siren]

I really do hope they change sea world into a rehab and release facility rather than an entertainment one. Come on sea world do the right thing for once and get off your high seahorse.

As for Tilly, I'm pretty sure he wants out. At the same time he would pose a threat to humans (seriously tho what animal isn't a threat?) and he wouldn't survive very long.

Sigh. It's a complicated situation.

[Mermaid Mystery]

I really do hope they change sea world into a rehab and release facility rather than an entertainment one. Come on sea world do the right thing for once and get off your high seahorse.

As for Tilly, I'm pretty sure he wants out. At the same time he would pose a threat to humans (seriously tho what animal isn't a threat?) and he wouldn't survive very long.

Sigh. It's a complicated situation.

I want a disneyworld sized park that is entirely water. all just pools for the orcas. let's do it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mermaid Alea]

Just asking since I am not sure, but could releasing a captive orca into the wild give wild orcas any kind of weird sickness?
I guess it would most likely be the opposite. Most of their lives they have been living in a chlorine tank (if they keep chlorine in the tanks still) then suddenly they are in the wild and get bombarded with things in the water that their immune system might not be able to fight off. I could see that being a big problem for captive born orcas.

[Mermaid Mystery]

Just asking since I am not sure, but could releasing a captive orca into the wild give wild orcas any kind of weird sickness?
I guess it would most likely be the opposite. Most of their lives they have been living in a chlorine tank (if they keep chlorine in the tanks still) then suddenly they are in the wild and get bombarded with things in the water that their immune system might not be able to fight off. I could see that being a big problem for captive born orcas.

I know of at least one disease that they can give to wild animals, but I'm certain they can catch a number of things from the wild, because they've been medicated against them (not sure if marine mammals are vaccinated lol)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AniaR]

Releasing captive whales doesn't work. They want to #emptythetanks and either overhaul the whole park to be more like an aquarium or put the whales in sea pens. That's what empty the tanks means. There isn't actually an effort to just throw them back to the wild.

[Mermaid Mystery]

isn't the release of Tilikum PETA's #freetilly movement the goal though? I'm pretty sure they want him in the wild with no idea what the consequences would be.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AniaR]

Hey I'm talking about activism groups not terrorists ;)

I literally couldn't find what #freetilly means beyond this which is stupid : http://www.peta2.com/achievements/free-tilly-seaworld-mission/

So the mission is write it on your arm and earn points. Ok then.

While lots of things are tagged freetilly on the internet, that's the only official posting from the Peta website that comes up with your search.

The groups that have actually put in bids to try and buy SeaWorld ( like Rick OBarry and others) are all actual educated people and understand you can't just throw a whale back in the wild.

I honestly believe that whole idea just came out of the general masses seeing blackfish and the blackfish movie not being clear enough about solutions.

[Mermaid Mystery]

Hey I'm talking about activism groups not terrorists ;)

HA! I know what you mean, they did a post about the zoo I am involved with and I was mortified!
I'm glad educated people are trying to buy Seaworld, I hope they keep the trainers not for entertainment purposes, but for enrichment. I'd hate to see most human interaction lost, that wouldn't be great for the whales.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mermaid Galene]

PETA has pulled some really stupid "release the captives" pranks that harmed animals horrifically. A local branch in Minnesota broke into an egg factory and released a large group of chickens a few years ago. Conditions there were indeed awful, but PETA just opened the cages and shooed all the hens outside. Most of them scrambled in a panic out onto the highway and were mowed down by traffic. Others died of fear and stress. As Raina said, animal welfare advocates who actually know something about animal welfare would not suggest releasing any captive born or captive-acclimated animal into the wild without a lengthy reeducation period. Even with "how to be wild" training, there's a large failure rate. Many captive animals just can't make the transition. An animal that has been in captivity for 30 years, like Tilikum, wouldn't stand a chance in the wild. A large seapen, where he can be cared for in a natural environment by people who know what they're doing (clearly NOT SeaWorld), is the best outcome we can hope for, I think.

[Echidna]

Keiko was released successfully after nearly 20 years of captivity.
It took a long time and tremendous effort and money of course, but imo Seaworld owes their captives all of that.

[Mermaid Mystery]

Keiko was released successfully after nearly 20 years of captivity.
It took a long time and tremendous effort and money of course, but imo Seaworld owes their captives all of that.

I really find that hard to believe to be perfectly honest. I'm sure it happened but I'm incredibly shocked that that could happen. I still would not advise them to take the risk.
As for PETA, why would you release chickens like that? under what circumstances would that be acceptable? that's illegal and just messed up. while I'm sure the living conditions were awful, it's not an invite to just come in and release the chickens like that. Seriously they do more harm than good.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mermaid Galene]

Keiko's release is an interesting story:

http://www.takepart.com/article/2013/09/24/i-remember-keiko-20-years-after-free-willy-former-trainer-recounts-killer-whales

It took many months of rehab in a seapen before he could be allowed into the open sea, and he ultimately chose to go free range. He never did find (or choose?) the company of wild orcas. I gather he died with his human caretakers with him or at least nearby. His rescue caretakers, I think, were competent and able to judge what was best for him. Tilimuk is 10 years older, at least, which might make a difference in his future. I hope he can return to the sea. But the most important thing is that he have educated caretakers with good judgment, and a comfortable outdoor seapen away from the confines of concrete walls, whether that ends up being temporary or permanent.

[Echidna]

He never did find (or choose?) the company of wild orcas. I gather he died with his human caretakers with him or at least nearby.

Keiko didn't permanently join a wild orca pod, but he did interact with them.
He was fitted with a sender to check if he was doing well, and he was.

He learned how to feed himself in the wild, and he even took a thousand-miles long journey after which he was in excellent health.
However, shortly after, he caught an infection and died from it after a while.
Or at least that is what was assumed.

I'm just glad he had those precious years in freedom, and that practically all the world was watching out for his well-being, because otherwise, he'd probably been killed by whalers in no time.
One of the reasons I couldn't live in Norway or Iceland is their attitude towards marine life.
Icelanders were openly complaining about the whole Keiko project, arguing along the lines of "whales are food, not friends. He should be killed" and yes, this was said literally.

[AniaR]

Keiko died, like many whales who are released, there arent really any data on 'success' stories. Even whales who are injured, saved, and released quickly... still seem to die pretty soon after. :(

[AptaMer]

Wikipedia has a fairly accurate summary of Keiko's life http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keiko_%28orca%29#History

and there's a more detailed, and somewhat more positive-sounding outline of Keiko's story on the Keiko Project's webpage (their estimate that Keiko was born in 1997 or 1998 is probably off.)

http://keiko.com/history.html

You have to remember that Keiko was approximately 20 years old when the effort to rehabilitate him began, an age of peak health for male orcas.

Tilikum is 33 years old now. That's very old for a male orca (the average lifespan for males is about 30 years, like humans, male orcas don't live as long as females, on average.) It took 6 years, from 1996 to 2002 before Keiko was ready to venture out independently into the ocean. There's a big difference between a 26 year old orca taking a 1400 km open-ocean trip and a 39 year old one.

It would be great if Tilikum could be placed in an area open to the sea, perhaps in a netted cove or something. That would be his best option. Setting him out to try and make his way in the open ocean at some age like 39 would be like plunking an 80 year old male human who had lived all his life in the city into the wilderness and expecting him to survive.

I do hope some way is found for Tilikum to live out his last days in a much larger sea-facing area, with fresh sea water exposure, but we'll see.

Rescued wild orcas have been successfully reunited with their pods, but Keiko was never able to join a pod, and ended up living in an inlet mostly for the last year of his life, continuing to interact with humans. He did make it to the age of 27 years, a reasonably long life for a male orca, outdoing most captive males.

While the Keiko Project touts the success of their venture, I think Keiko's experience is why no scientists or animal handling experts support trying to release a lifetime-captive orca into the open ocean environment. Remember too, that most orcas in dolphinariums today were born in captivity and have absolutely no experience of life in the wild. At least Keiko had experienced 2-3 years in the wild as a juvenile.

There's also no question that his last years were much better than that any other captive whale has experienced, as you have so rightly pointed out, Echidna.

I hope Tilikum gets a good deal for the last few years of his life.
__________________________________________________ ________________

Postscript: There's also the psychological and financial aspects of these efforts.

Keiko had become a star because of his appearance in the 1993 movie Free Willy, and the incongruity of a whale who starred in a movie about a captive whale living in horrid conditions making it to freedom . . . being kept in captivity in horrible conditions . . . wasn't lost on the public, or on Warner Brothers Studios.

With the help of philanthropist Craig McCaw (a wealthy businessman who founded the McCaw Cellular company) the Keiko Project charitable foundation was set up. Keiko himself was given to the Keiko Project free of charge by the Reino Aventura park (remember that orcas typically are sold between parks for anywhere from $100k to $2.5M depending on age, health and market conditions.)

Warner studios contributed $4M to the Keiko Project (a small amount for them, considering they spent $20M on the making of the movie, and grossed $153M just from the box office alone. They've probably made more than that since from video sales.)

Other sponsors provided in-kind support. UPS, for example provided all air transportation of Keiko at no charge to the Keiko Project. That probably represents hundreds of thousands of dollars of free services to the project.

The initial $7M the Keiko Project raised went to fund the construction of his first rehabilitation home in Oregon. They had to continue fund raising efforts to build his new facility in Iceland, then pay for his support efforts in Norway.

This is the kind of money it takes to rehabilitate an Orca to the wild.

The momentum was probably sustained because of Keiko's status as an animal movie star, and the positive feelings engendered by his movie.

I wish I didn't have to say this, because it's irrational, but psychologically; unlike Keiko, who was associated with positive feelings; many people associate Tilikum with death and horror, because that's sensational, and that's what draws news reporters and YouTube traffic, and the deaths are what tends to be shown of him. With the negative feelings clouding Tilikum's image, it could be hard to raise the kind of support it would take to truly take care of him. Not saying this is right. It isn't, but it may be reality.

Something will have to change in people's psychology, and there will need to be a source of funding independent of the captivity industry (as happened for Keiko) before concrete action will happen, I think.

[Mermaid Galene]

All very good points.

[Jeblily]

I think we would all like to see them released, but this may not be the most practical option economically or for the orca. I would love to see them move the orcas to sea pens, but that would be a very long project. For now let us hope that they increase the tank size and allow for human contact again!!!!