Texturizing With Dragonskin

[Seatan]

I was looking at the sweatshirt I use when working with Dragonskin and noticed that when just a small amount soaks in it still looks black (like the shirt) but is a raised ridge. I was wondering if anyone has used this to try and texturize a printed spandex tail to give it a more 3D look and feel. I was thinking about doing this to my Mertailor Eco-tail and was wondering if anyone has had success with it. I wouldn't be covering the fabric or anything, just sort of speck long on texture. What do you guys think? Better idea than using paint to texturize? (I have a ton of Dragonskin lying around, lol!)

also has anybody sewn very thin silicone fins to a spandex tail?

[Seatan]

Okay, I started doing this and it turned out well. The spandex soaked up a TON of Dragonskin (I was smearing purple tinted dragon skin on with my fingers), but once it had sunk in I could I add a second layer to make a sort of "bump". I tried tearing it off with my fingernails this morning (to see how it will hold up if I land arse first in a coral reef like I did last summer when the diver above me descended without looking!) and I couldn't get any to tear or peel off since it was soaked so fully through the spandex. It's VERY shiny, like when you do a thin layer over a thick silicone casting to make it "glossy." I couldn't get a picture that actually showed how it looks, so I am going to try it on the fluke--it should be easier to see it there than the scales. It's nice and slick (like silicone, obviously) and looks really good. It also makes the material feel sturdier, which makes sense as I am basically soaking it in rubber. I also altered my Rapid and sewed it inside the tail, leaving a few small drainage holes. This was my only choice as the Rapid is too big to fit through the top of the tail. The material is stretched pretty tight, but the yellow just makes the purple cloth look brighter. I think you could also do this with the orange eco-tail, but the blue one might show the yellow through or the material might end up looking greenish.

[Sherielle]

Does the material lose stretchability with the silicone on it?

[Rett]

Pics!!!! I need pics!!! :D

[OceanWhisper]

Pics!!!! I need pics!!! :D
Me too! I love this idea! Like how some tribes did stuff to their skin to get lizard-like ridges etc.. This could turn out really cool :)

[Seatan]

Okay, here it is! I wasn't able to create raised scale shapes as it soaked in completely but I WAS able to create ridges on the fluke. It looks SUPER realistic and has GREAT stretch, though it lost a tiny bit. Since the layer is so thin it took me twenty minutes digging my nails into it to get any to peel off, and that was an area I had spread a little too thick and had a bump for me to cut into. I am not sure how well it will hold up but it seems pretty darn sturdy and you can always just smear it with more Dragonskin! This is turning out to be a great inexpensive and light weight option--the 3D shading was realistic to begin with but when paired with the shine and feel of silicone along with the raised texture on the fluke it looks DARN realistic!!! I love it! All the things I wanted from silicone without the weight or price!
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Sorry about the bad photos I am writing this from my phone and it won't let me upload the good (aka huge) photos.

[Seatan]

Does the material lose stretchability with the silicone on it?

A little bit but not a lot! It no longer stretches insanely wide like spandex but it is more than stretchy enough to pull on with ease. The fluke where I layered it on about a quarter inch thick to create ridges is no longer stretchy, but it doesn't need to be!

[Seatan]

I think instead of actually sculpting heel and side fins I will pour a very thin layer of silicone in a cookie sheet and cut out the shapes so they will be very floppy and translucent and not weigh down the fabric--kind of like using shelf liner only in fun pearlescent colors and with whatever texture I want.

[PearlieMae]

Beautiful and innovative!

I tried something similar with caulking, but I was more interested in texturing scales - kind of like what Fifi does - but I wasn't getting the results I wanted so I abandoned it.

This is wonderful! Well you be taking commissions?

[Seatan]

Thank you! No I won't be doing commissions. I am moving to Utila Honduras in the Bay Islands permanently in August to get my SCUBA master instructor certification and yacht first mate certifications, then when I have those I am considering hopping from Utila to the more touristy island of Roaton and starting up a mermaid school for the tourist. Tons of cruises dock there so it would be a fantastic place for a mermaid start up!

[Sherielle]

I. Love. This!!!!

[BayouMermaid]

I am so in love with this. I might try it on my own spandex tail. It looks like it makes it more durable :D

[Seatan]

I definitely does--I had already made a small hole in it while sewing and fixed that right up with silicone! It's a bit of a messy job (I just spread it with gloved hands) but it's worth it! When I finish the other side I'll take it for a swim and let you know how it feels!

[Princess Pearl]

Once I get my sequins tail done, I might give this a try with my Fin Fun! How did you keep the silicone from soaking from one side of the tail to the other and gluing it all together? Did you put it on a form or anything like that?

[Keiris]

It looks FANTASTIC Seavanna! Very shiny and wet looking. How will you attach the thin fins to the tail without the silicone ripping?

[Seatan]

Princess Pearl the form it is on now is what It was on when I siliconed it. I wrapped my legs with plastic wrap, wrapped that with plastic packing tape (in case the rubber in duct tape might hurt the curing), cut myself out and stuffed it with a pool noodle and stuffing. Then I placed the tail on that form and slathered the silicone on top of that, so it pulls right off once cured.

Keiris, I am actually going to slit the material, slip the fins in, sew the seam then reinforce it with more silicone. Glad you like it! I am reeeeally happy with the outcome so far!!! I am considering siliconing the inside as well (it's already partially siliconed inside in places where it fully sunk through to secure it more and make certain it won't peel at all!

[MermaidAine]

This is just gorgeous! I love how shiny it is!

[PearlieMae]

If you lay a piece of tulle into the fins, they won't rip once attached, and the tulle is thin enough that it won't stiffen the fin. Also, turn the tail inside out and coat the inside so the fabric is completely sealed, otherwise you'll set yourself up for pockets that will hold moisture and potentially grow mold. :yay:

[MerEmma]

Looks like a pretty successful experiment! I wonder how it'll swim?

[Sherielle]

I'm guessing the monofin is not in it while you are covering it with silicone?

[Seatan]

Nope the monofin is in it while I coat it. The rubber hasn't hurt the curing at all. I was a little worried about curing right on top of the rubber foot pockets but it's turned out fine!

thanks for the tulle tip, Pearlie, very good advice--and I am planning to coat the inside as well.

[Seatan]

Looks like a pretty successful experiment! I wonder how it'll swim?

I am going to try it this weekend at my lake cabin so probably no video, but I think it will swim like any tail. It's like having a very, very thin silicone tail. VERY thin. I've swam in Both silicone and fabric and I think this will be more like fabric because it won't have as much weight--I will likely need a weight belt--but I don't anticipate any swimming issues.

[Seatan]

Okay before anyone else does this, a few helpful tips:

1) DO NOT apply Dragonskin while the tail it on the dressform--it will drip down the sides causing it to be thicker in places. Cut some plastic sheet or wood or even cardboard to stick between it so it just two flat sides.

2) Do not let it anywhere near stuffing! The stuffing from my dressform ended up on it, and now I am going to have to pick off several big places and redo the silicone! DARN IT!

[Seatan]

Another good tip. To add a texture to it (so it's not so perfectly smooth) wait until the silicone cures just a little bit then smear the silicone around on the tail fabric. I can't get a good picture of it because the camera is not picking up the subtleties, but it looks much more realistic than totally completely flat and also hides the few little air bubbles I got when applying the silicone too quickly. Water test has been pushed back thanks to my incident with the stuffing. I have to pull all the stuffing stuck on it off and re silicone that section.

[Keiris]

Uuugh sounds irritating but so worth it in the long run. I am curious, Seavanna. How did you make ridges on the fluke if the silicone just keeps wanting to level out on a flat surface? You didn't like the smooth glass look from your first pictures? I thought it looked pretty fishy. (pun intended);)

[Seatan]

I liked the glassy smooth look on the fluke but wanted a SLIGHT texture on the body of the tail to give it some depth. From more than a foot or so away it still looks glassy smooth but if you get real close our touch it it isn't perfectly smooth, there is some texture.

I made the ridges on the fluke by using multiple steps. I siliconed the whole thing thickly and let it cure. Then I mixed a new batch of silicone and waited until it had JUST started curing (you can feel it get thicker and harder to manipulate.). I then dripped it onto the fluke where I wanted the ridges and used my fingers to smooth the edges and create a natural look. Since it had already begun to cure it held the shape, but was still far enough from curing to bond seamlessly to the silicone below it.

I've learned a lot doing this and will definitely be able to do it much more efficiently next time! My biggest problem (other than getting stuffing on wet silicone!) was starting with it on a body form. I should have done it flat, because there are some thicker "drips" on the sides that I had to shave down with scissors so it didn't look like melting skin! (You couldn't really see it from more than a couple feet away but I am a perfectionist.). I also learned from having to remove silicone from the area I got stuffing on that 1) it is VERY difficult to separate the silicone from the fabric and 2) once you get strips coming off you can feel a difference in the fabric, so it really does sink into the fabric. The fabric I had removed silicone from was much sturdier feeling than the spandex I had not coated yet. Even though it felt like fabric with the top layer of silicone pulled off, it felt twice as thick as it started out. I guess the rubber reinforced the thread when it soaked in.

I am really loving how it is coming out! The side of the fluke I've covered with silicone looks 1000 times more realistic than the side that doesn't. Even before the ridges, the silicone gave it a weight and depth that looked so much more real than the flat looking fabric. Plus the wrinkles from forcing a larger monofin into the pockets have been totally covered by the silicone and the seams are almost invisible. It's basically the perfect solution for me. I love realistic tails but I need something lightweight and easy to store for living on the island. This is both! The only think I don't like is that it has a cut Rapid instead if a full Competitor, but that has to do with the design of the fabric tail, not the process. I really do think this would be a great alternative for people who just can't afford a silicone tail. Unlike silicone/neoprene this is such a THIN layer that I can't imagine how it could separate... And if it did all you would have to do it patch it since it's nothing more than a thin painted coat of silicone. The tail DOES shrink a little bit when you do this, though. The tail was too big for me when I started (my legs are so long that I had to order a bigger size), and now the tail fits perfectly. I'm not sure why it shrinks; I guess it gas something to do with the silicone curing after it soaks in. So you have to start with a tail that is maybe one size up. That is the only "oddity" I have come across so far, though. Hopefully the swim test will go well!

[Mer-Crazy]

I was also wondering if something like Pearlie scales would work on a tail like this? Maybe Silicone over the top, then attach the scales or something like that? Or maybe it would just look really weird haha. All in all I think this is something I would love! I may need to take up a project like this myself at some point :D

[Seatan]

That is basically what Pearlie does, only with powermesh instead of fabric. When you coat powermesh it ends up inside the silicone while the fabric just gets soaked into. So yes, you could do it but it would be more likely to separate than if you did it on powermesh, IMO. The key to this is that the layer is so thin you can't get it to come up because it's so soaked in. I think if you started attaching scales it would eventually end up similar to a neoprene/silicone tail with the heavy scales detaching from the fabric in places. The key is that nothing sticks to silicone but silicone. If it's a super thin layer it is too hard to get started to separate--you get a little peeled up and it's so thin it snaps off and can't peel much off. If you had a layer as thick as most scales I think it would be more likely to be able to hold the shape enough to peel off large areas rather than that a couple of centimeters. Does that make sense?

[SeaMonkey]

that is indeed cool. it looks so slimy!!!!!

[Seatan]

I have to admit the places where the silicone didn't lay perfectly flat are driving me NUTS but then I have to take a deep breath and remember that when I had my FinFolk tail, the silicone wasn't perfect everywhere on it, either. I think the best thing about having had a tail made by such awesome tailmakers is it gave me more realistic expectations of what a silicone tail is. They always look PERFECT online, but there are always some little flaws here and there and they all do things like wrinkle at the knees and ankles.

[PearlieMae]

For thicker scales, maybe, but my scales are fairly thin, compared to most silicone tails. If you were thinking of adding them to a tail like this, I'd probably add small scales in the ankle area, transitioning to just silicone coated fabric, then attaching translucent-to-nude scales for a blended waistline.

I've been thinking of doing this very thing for a lightweight tail for training. I hate taking the whole big tail to the gym. It's a big hassles to put on and take off. The pool is small and usually crowded. A silicone/fabric hybrid might be just the thing for 'casual' use. And is still beautiful enough to use for gigs!

[Mer-Crazy]

I'm sorry if this has been asked already but how much silicone did you use?

[MermanOliver]

Seavanna, that is such a great idea! Probably just what it needs to keep holographic print fabric from fading. I'll definitely give it a try next month (my tail needs a rework anyhow ;) ).
Thanks so much for sharing!
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[Mermaid Aika]

Such a cool idea! It turned/ is turning out great! Let us know how the swim goes!

[Seatan]

Seavanna, that is such a great idea! Probably just what it needs to keep holographic print fabric from fading. I'll definitely give it a try next month (my tail needs a rework anyhow ;) ).
Thanks so much for sharing!
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Not much at all. I've done one half of the tail... Maybe 600 ml? And I wasted quite a bit of it because I never bother to scrape the bottoms of my containers. I am using old Dragonskin from when I was making my full silicone tail that I didn't finish. There are junky cured pieces in them and I am getting close to the literal bottoms of the barrels, but I think I can do the whole thing without buying more. You might be able to do it with a trial size if the fluke isn't very thick but don't hold me to that because I've never used a trial size and don't know how much Dragonskin is in it!

[Seatan]

Okay, here are some pictures showing the side of the fluke that is finished and the side of the fluke that hasn't been started, for comparison. Night and day, right?!

BEFORE
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AFTER
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Here is me wearing the tail, showing the siliconed, textured side:

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And here is the part I had to painstakingly peel off to get rid of the stuffing embedded in the silicone. It was NOT easy to peel off, but it gives you an idea of how thin the layer is.

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And here is the texturizing I did, up close.

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[Keiris]

It's just really innovative, Seavanna. Such a nice alternative to always dragging around a full silicone tail when you want the experience but not the hassel. I have a gallon of silicone I ordered over a year and a half ago but never opened. Something like this would be a fun experiment to see if you could even layer the silicone for painting effects. Do you think the silicone would be any good after all this time?

[Seatan]

I think so. The silicone I am using for this has been in OPEN containers (lids just set lightly on top) since last August. It kept very well for me! :)

[Seraphina Suds]

How did I miss this thread! Your tail came out so cool! I wanted to do something similar myself. I was under the impression that silicone doesn't stay clear? I thought it yellowed or turned white eventually.

[Caprica]

this is absolutely beautiful! Is can't wait to make my first spandex tail and this seens like it could be a fun project if I find mermaiding is something I enjoy and wish to invest in a sturdier tail!

[MermanOliver]

I was under the impression that silicone doesn't stay clear? I thought it yellowed or turned white eventually.
I guess the reason why this works is that the silicone layer is so thin that you don't notice it being slightly milky, as it would be in a quite thick layer as for a full silicone tail?

[PearlieMae]

It's stays fairly clear in very thin applications, but gets milky as it gets thicker.

[Keiris]

Have you taken it for a swim Seavanna? Will coating the inside of tail with silicone make it even smaller and a lot harder to slip on?

[Dancing Fish]

Awesome! I'm trying this for my daughter's tail. She 8 and very hard on them, so full silicone's not an option for her yet. But a layer of silicone over painted spandex looks awesome, too! I wonder if this technique could extend the life of her ailing Fin Fun tail, which is now riddled with holes at the stress points. You'll have to report back on how the silicone on your fluke holds up over time. :)

[Seatan]

My suggestion would be this: Do ONLY one layer of Dragonskin on the tail body itself. I tried to do a second layer to get more texture and it really dulled the texture and gloss to the point where I think I am going to try again--one side of the tail looks so much more vibrant than the other that I REALLY want to redo it! This time I will cut a flat body panel rather doing it on a dressform and do only one layer on the body and leave textures and raised areas for the fluke.

Should I do purple again or try blue this time?

[Seatan]

Awesome! I'm trying this for my daughter's tail. She 8 and very hard on them, so full silicone's not an option for her yet. But a layer of silicone over painted spandex looks awesome, too! I wonder if this technique could extend the life of her ailing Fin Fun tail, which is now riddled with holes at the stress points. You'll have to report back on how the silicone on your fluke holds up over time. :)

Yes, I believe it absolutely will. While sewing I put a hole in part of the tail and after siliconing it is gone.

[Seatan]

Or maybe I won't be using Mertailor again. He wants $29 to ship fabric tail with no monofin to Texas. That would make it $90! I might try this with a FinFun even though I don't like the pattern as much.

[MermaidBrandie]

I have a ton of silicone, and I'm making a tail out of sequin fabric with a spandex fluke. I might do this over the fluke to help protect the spandex. :)

I have experimented with coating the sequin fabric as well. It came out very nice, very fishy lol but I'm not sure I want to do the whole tail like that.


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[Seatan]

Okay some bad news on coating fabric with silicone. Either a) this fabric tears pretty easily or b) the silicone makes the fluke more susceptible to tears. After swimming for two hours in a very shallow pool (1-4 feet) there were several tears on the fluke only. (Body was fine). I am in Honduras until tomorrow but will take pics when I get home. The tail actually stretched, it did NOT shrink at all when worn in the water.

[Celaeno]

Okay some bad news on coating fabric with silicone. Either a) this fabric tears pretty easily or b) the silicone makes the fluke more susceptible to tears. After swimming for two hours in a very shallow pool (1-4 feet) there were several tears on the fluke only. (Body was fine). I am in Honduras until tomorrow but will take pics when I get home. The tail actually stretched, it did NOT shrink at all when worn in the water.

Did you get pictures of the damage? I'm considering coating my first fabric tail in dragon skin when it's done...