Finis Foil vs Finis Rapid

[Mermaid Menanna]

I apologize if this has been asked/covered already somewhere on the forum... I did look and didn't find anything, but I'm working on a tight time schedule and don't have time to search the entire forum right now.

I currently have a finis foil fin, my first ever. I'm not liking it the best in regards to size or fit. It's small and it fits very tight in the foot pockets, yet the straps come off of my feet easily while swimming. Still working to try to fix that. I am just getting used to it and am finding it "ok" to swim in. I'm very out of shape and it will take time to rebuild muscle tone and stamina. Already working on that too.

Because of pool rule issues I am being forced to invest in a 2nd monofin. I am not allowed to use ANY fin in the pool if it has been used outdoors (lake, river, etc). Since my foil has so far only seen a chlorinated pool, and just once at that... I plan to reserve it for pool use and invest in another fin for lake swimming this summer. I am not really wanting to do another foil. I've found too many issues that I don't want to deal with again, especially the size and how it doesn't fill out the larger fluke I want, so the fabric (spandex) curls over the top of it when I swim and it creates a LOT of drag and makes swimming difficult and awkward. I can swim ok in just the fin, but slipping it into the tail suddenly makes swimming extremely hard and not very safe.

What I want to know is how much of a difference is there between the foil and the rapid? I'm thinking in regards to size as well as ease of swimming. I know the rapid is larger, but by how much? I have heard the rapid is more stiff than the foil, so I'm wondering if that makes it easier or harder to swim in? My legs aren't real strong right now and it will take time for that to change. If the rapid isn't the way to go, can anyone suggest something better instead? I need to stay under $100 because money is super tight and I hadn't planned ahead for this extra expense. I will be making a new tail skin to go over the new fin, but am waiting until I have a new fin to measure first, then I will have 1 fin & tail for pool swimming only, and the other for lake swimming only.
Help?

[Mermaid Alea]

Okay well all I can tell you a bit about the rapid because that is the only monofin I own.

I think the rapid is a great sized monofin. It isn't too small or too big in my opinion. Also yes it is stiffer which will certainly mean you won't have to work as hard to swim in it which I would say is especially good for swimming in places other than a pool.
Here is a photo just to show you what the rapid looks like in a tail.
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The straps are adjustable and the straps have a quick release mechanism making it very safe. The first swims I took in the rapid I had issues of the straps falling down a little, but once I made sure the straps were up higher on my heel and I tightened it a little more it hasn't given me trouble. To me the foot pockets are very comfy of course this is coming from someone who has been swimming in dive fins that are probably almost 2 sizes too small so having a fin that actually fits my feet is a new thing for me.

So far I really love it, but I have never worn any other kind of monofin. I just measured mine from the end of the fin to the end of the foot pocket is 23 in. and the widest part at the end of the fin is around 20 in.

I hope this helps a little there should be someone on here with both monofins and they will hopefully come along and give you a great pro/con reply.

[Mermaid Menanna]

Thanks Mermaid Alea. That does already help some... and I am hearing similar info from mers on fb. I am kinda kicking myself for starting with the foil and am starting to think that at least part of my struggle is because I have to work so hard to get propulsion from it, because it's so flexible. I don't remember who it was but someone had suggested to me that the foil would be easier than the rapid, but that doesn't seem to be the case from what I am hearing out of people who have the rapid or have both. There is a mer on fb who has some of the same health issues I do, especially the lower body weakness, and she said that the rapid was MUCH easier for her than the foil.
It is starting to look like I will be getting a rapid and use the foil just for endurance training on my short weeknight swims and save the rapid for the lake. I will definitely take it to the pool for its maiden swim, just for safety reasons... but once it has been in the lake it will have to stay reserved for lake use. It will be a few wks yet before the lakes around here are warm enough for swimming, so that should be enough to meet my timeline.

Thanks again for your input! I definitely like the size of the rapid much better than the foil and I think it will give me the fluke shape and size I want without all of the issues the foil has presented. :)

[Mermaid Alea]

Well good luck! I think you will like the difference and I hope it is much easier for you to use. I don't know why the foil is recommended as a first monofin sometimes. I guess because it is light and easy to take places? I think the rapid will make you happy. :)

[Echidna]

I have a Rapid, and I don't think it's that good.

It has very noticeable ridges and a large footpocket with straps which are hell to hide in a tail.
Swimming-wise, I find it meh.
It's stiff and heavy, the propulsion mediocre.

I'd recommend the Hydra instead, which costs about the same as the Rapid, but has way better propulsion, is much lighter, and translucent to boot so you can make a diaphanous fluke with it.

[Mermaid Jaffa]

Just use the same one and if they ask, say you have two of the same fins at home.

Or that you rinse your fin and take care of it very well.

It must've been and I'm very sorry! I love my foil!

As for speed and propulsion, you won't get as much in a tail as the extra fabric regardless of how you made your fluke, creates a lot of drag. I can zip round the pool and do turns quite easily in my tail-less foil, but once the tail goes on, its twice as hard to get the turns right or go fast. I think that once you get used to the weight of one tail, or even several tails with the same fluke design, it will get much better. As of now, I have gotten used to the weight and can move fast in my tails, though not as fast as just the fin. Its still doable.

Getting the speed in, its all about technique. If you're kicking with any part of your legs, then you're doing it wrong. Your head and shoulders are one, push them down, butt sticks out, legs follow. Rinse n repeat.

[Mermaid Menanna]

Just use the same one and if they ask, say you have two of the same fins at home.

Or that you rinse your fin and take care of it very well.

That would be a good way to not only get my fin banned from the pool, but me as well. I live in a very small town and am the only mer in the area, possibly the only one in the area with a monofin. It would be pretty obvious if someone sees me out at the lake with it... word travels fast in small towns. Rinsing it well isn't good enough for their rules. I was told that even soaking it in bleach wasn't acceptable enough. Since this is my ONLY option of a pool in my area, I'm not taking the chance of being banned from it. That might not seem like a big deal to someone who has access to multiple different places for swimming.. but when you have only 1 choice you follow their rules, like it or not. Fins and tails are NOT allowed around here anywhere... they are making an exception for me under the condition I adhere to their strict rules, because I have explained to them that I need this for health reasons.
Where I live is pretty much the same situation they are dealing with in Edmonton, Canada, which is why I have been so vocal to that cause. The worst thing for a mermaid is having nowhere to swim. :(

[Mermaid Jaffa]

Oh. Bifins? Though I've never used bifins, don't know if they have the same propulsion as a monofin.

[SeaMonkey]

my first tail is a competitor. hate it. my new tail is a rapid. luv it. good propulsion. when swimming use ur head and shoulders and the rest of ur body will follow. also, rapid is in ur budget and its not too huge

[Mermaid Menanna]

Thanks SeaMonkey. After talking to a lot of people on fb last night, I think I have decided to go with the rapid. How do you deal with the ridges in the rapid fin? I've heard they show through the fabric and can be sharp enough to slice through fabric?

[Yulia]

"when swimming use ur head and shoulders and the rest of ur body will follow."

No don't. That's not correct dolphin kick, and it's better and easier to learn the right motion from the start.

[MerEmma]

You mentioned finding the Foil very small, which is quite true and why it seems to work best in silicone tails (for the extra push and floppy or flowy effect beneath the waves). I don't have the answer for what second fin you should get, but you could always modify the Foil to make it bigger like Jade did, found in this thread: http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?2548-First-time-tailmaking-Jade-s-attempt&highlight=duct+tape

A couple other mers have done it and had pretty good success with the method, I've heard. I thought I might mention it. :)

[Mermaid Menanna]

Thank you Emma but I am still in need of a 2nd fin because of the pool rules. I need a fin I can take to the lakes and one restricted for just indoor pools. Since I already know the foil isn't really the fin for me I want to get something different for my 2nd fin.

[Mermaid Jaffa]

"when swimming use ur head and shoulders and the rest of ur body will follow."

No don't. That's not correct dolphin kick, and it's better and easier to learn the right motion from the start.

You mean its not? I have been watching the finswimming videos... They demonstrate it better than the ones with kids splashing around in a tail.

[Yulia]

You mean its not? I have been watching the finswimming videos... They demonstrate it better than the ones with kids splashing around in a tail.

Your head and shoulders should be still. The motion is supposed to come from your core and hips, and then continue out to your legs like a whip.

[Mer-Crazy]

I read that you should also push down with your chest. Head and shoulders stay still, press down with chest and up with hips at the same time and it kind of rolls through. Mostly just watching videos online. I feel like this one best demonstrates how to use the dolphin kick:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAIRWXYX3s8

[Mermaid Jaffa]

Now if someone can demonstrate it without using the arms in front.
I always thought mermaid swimming is the same except you use your head and roll the shoulders, with the rest of your body following the motions. Is what I've been doing... Have I been wrong all along?

[UltimateSwimFin.com]

Here is a write up I've done for proper technique with a bunch of videos, including the one above:

http://www.ultimateswimfin.com/pages/lunocet-technique

You do not want to start the undulation at you hands or even head if your flexibility will allow.

Work towards the goal of mimicking the flexibility and technique of my friend Lisa in this video.:

http://youtu.be/8QEZPTFFdLU


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[Mermaid Jaffa]

Here is a write up I've done for proper technique with a bunch of videos, including the one above:

http://www.ultimateswimfin.com/pages/lunocet-technique

You do not want to start the undulation at you hands or even head if your flexibility will allow.

Work towards the goal of mimicking the flexibility and technique of my friend Lisa in this video.:

http://youtu.be/8QEZPTFFdLU


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Sorry, I'm not going to listen to a guy that suggested we use neck weights. I'm kinda wary of you atm.

As for the other mers, I will see how my swimming goes. I think I'm doing it right with using chest, to start the motion, but with no one to show me AT the pool, I'm just going on memory. I normally use my whole body like the way Misty Hyman swims in her fin.

[UltimateSwimFin.com]

LOL

That swimmer with perfect form is using a 7lb neck weight. See how when she glides that the energy is all spent moving horizontally and not fighting buoyancy?

It's just physics.

And with you not fighting yourself and the tendency to float, you can focus on your form and technique better, by being in a single plane.


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[Mermaid Jaffa]

I'm not fighting buoyancy anymore. I use it to my own advantage to do small leaps out of the water.

Oh and I'm guessing that the person filming her is her swim buddy. Since I don't have a swim buddy, I don't see the point of putting myself in danger by wearing neck weights.

[Mermaid Menanna]

UltimateSwimFin.com I would like to point out that some of us don't have the tendency to float.. some of us sink like a rock in the water. My whole life, the one thing I struggled with the most was the ability to float in the water. My body sinks like a rock every time.

[UltimateSwimFin.com]

You can also adjust your "trim" with strategically locating neoprene.

Eg: a sleeve around your calves, or even neoprene socks (of various thicknesses) can be used to counter areas that sink (lots of muscle and little fat).


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[Mermaid Menanna]

I don't have any neoprene, my tails are spandex because that's all I can afford at this point. Also, I won't always be able to swim in my tail. My tail isn't allowed at the pool, was a hard enough fight to get them to allow my monofin by itself.

[UltimateSwimFin.com]

If your legs sink, try some 4mm neoprene socks. A scuba shop or even REI.com / online might have something.

I bought my niece a foil and it's an amazing value.

The Rapid won't be allowed in nearly as many locations, as it's hard (can hurt ppl accidentally) and its larger and harder NOT to notice.


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[Mermaid Menanna]

I found this swim technique explanation much easier to understand... for anyone else out there who is questioning technique.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyXZSTs_i30

[Mermaid Menanna]

If your legs sink, try some 4mm neoprene socks. A scuba shop or even REI.com / online might have something.

I bought my niece a foil and it's an amazing value.

The Rapid won't be allowed in nearly as many locations, as it's hard (can hurt ppl accidentally) and its larger and harder NOT to notice.

It's not just my legs that sink, lol. My whole body sinks.
In regards to a fin being allowed in the pools around here... to these people a monofin is a monofin. Most of them have no concept for what it is or what it's used for/how it's used. I have had to explain what it is to nearly every person I have spoken to thus far. The type of monofin has nothing to do with whether or not it is allowed here.
Perhaps you are misunderstanding my situation, so let me go back once again and explain.
I was an avid swimmer when I was younger, up til about 10 yrs ago. I lived in the water every summer, learned to swim when I was about 8 yrs old. About 10 yrs ago I went through a major lifestyle change, mostly because of health reasons, but also financial. I have never had formal swim instruction, ever. I was taught to swim by a babysitter. I have never before used a monofin, never before seen one in person. The past 10 yrs of my life have been mostly idle, 14+ hrs/day spent in a chair in front of my computer or in a chair working on craft projects, sewing, crochet, bead work, etc. My list of health problems is extensive. I have scoliosis (curvature of the spine), asthma, COPD, IBS, and a torn ACL ligament in my right knee with 33 yrs of atrophy in both directions. On a good day I can walk and function normally provided I don't over exert myself. On a bad day I use a cane or crutches to get around, or am confined to bed/chair. I cannot squat, kneel, climb stairs beyond a few and limited in how often, walk distance (beyond 3 blocks causes me to limp), drive, ride a bicycle, or any other activity that puts stress, pressure, or strain on my bad leg. Trying to do those things results in intense and constant pain and total loss of use of my leg... sometimes for days, sometimes for weeks, depending on how badly I've stressed it. I am also just recently (within the past few wks) recovered from a severe case of pneumonia.
Overall my body is a mess, which is why I have been fighting so hard to start swimming again... trying to reclaim my health. There isn't a whole lot I can do anymore for exercise that doesn't cause increased pain (I live with chronic pain) or cause more injury. Normal swimming involves kicking, which is something I can't do anymore. A few minutes of that and the pain sets in, so I opted for the monofin to help reduce the strain on my leg and rebuild my core/ab strength. My current level of stamina is at an all time low, worse than before I ever learned to swim as a child. I am also 60 lbs heavier than I have ever been before. Right now I weigh more than I did when I was 9 months pregnant with any of my 3 kids.

I have a LOT on my plate, everything is "new" for me, and I am not starting out as a healthy, fit individual. Add to that I have found it almost impossible to find anywhere here to swim using my monofin, have had to fight down to my last breath with this current pool for them to allow it, and my emotional status is not at peak either. Chlorine at the pools irritates my asthma, making it difficult to breathe even when I'm not actually in the water. Chrlorine fumes are horrible for asthma.

Thus far I have had a total of 30 minutes in a pool, which happened last weekend, at which time I was forced out due to rude and disrespectful people crowding me into a small corner that barely left me enough space to fully stretch out my body in the water. During that 30 minutes I was dealing with all of the challenges listed above plus the lack of help or instruction on how to swim in my monofin... I am left to teach myself. My only real resource has been youtube and this forum, along with a couple of facebook groups of mers who have been extremely helpful. One of those groups has a lot of mers who suffer from some of the same health challenges that I do, including my disability with my leg. Every one of them has thus far said they found it much easier to swim with a rapid than a foil, less work in the rapid than the foil, thus less strain on legs.
This is not something I expected to just jump into the water and know how to do, although I will say I have found it more difficult than I even expected. It's going to take me time to figure out the technique for the dolphin kick, and even longer for my body to accept this new form of movement. Building stamina also needs to be done. Swimming 10 ft across a pool is exhausting for me right now and enough to make me stop and have to catch my breath before trying again. My upper body is still strong, but my mid and lower body are extremely weak.

I appreciate the help and advice that has been offered, but please understand that I see it as simply that... someone's advice, not knowing or fully understanding my situation... coming from an experienced and very likely healthy (healthier than I am) individual. Offering me suggestions such as the neoprene socks and other such aids does me no good. I am poor. Having to buy this 2nd monofin is pushing past what my budget already allows and I am scrambling just to be able to afford that. It took me 3+ yrs just to save up enough to get my 1st fin and the materials to make my first spandex tail. Buying "extras" is not an option, no matter how much I may want it.

During my 30 minutes of swim time I found the foil very difficult to move in, and had the added problem that it doesn't fit my feet very well. The foot pockets are extremely tight (a strangle hold on my feet) yet the straps slide right off in the water, causing the fin to come off. I am stuck with it as a trainer fin and am working on making some footless socks from my leftover spandex fabric to help with the slipping straps... so I am trying to make the best of a difficult situation. What works for 1 person doesn't mean it will work for everyone. There is nothing "typical" about me or my situation.

[Mermaid Menanna]

Here is another video I am finding helpful...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UC7KBfNJPt0

[Echidna]

If money is tight, you can get a pair of decent bi-fins anywhere for very little.

I actually prefer bifins to monofins, because they give much greater flexibility for underwater tricks, and the propulsion with dolphinkick is just as good, sometimes even better.

Also, pools which might give you a hard time about a monofin might be less prone to do so if you bring a pair of bifins, because they (hopefully) will know what it is. :p

[Mermaid Menanna]

The issues with fins at the pool is fins, overall. No fins, floatation devices, water wings, goggles, etc. Pretty much the only thing allowed in is the person in suitable swimwear attire... nothing like tshirts and such allowed either.
I have no interest in bifins. The use of both legs with the kicking is what I'm trying to avoid. Adding the work of remembering to hold my legs/feet together without separating them is just one more thing to deal with... the monofin fixes that for me. I'm also not interested in or worried about tricks at this stage... and expect it will be a very long time before that holds any interest for me. At this point I have no interest in performing.. it's all about reclaiming my health. Once I am healthy again, if that happens/is possible, then I may give some thought to expanding into tricks or just leisure swimming to hang out in the water and just have fun.
The more flexibility in the fins the more work my body has to do for me to move in the water... which is what I'm trying to avoid.

[Mermaid Wesley]

The rapid is MUCH bigger. I would say 3-4 times bigger in the blade. I find it easy to swim in but really all monofins feel different. It's not too hard for a beginner. The foil is cheaper and smaller which is sometimes awesome, but I love my wave and the rapid I tried.


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[UltimateSwimFin.com]

For traditional monos, I think that the larger and stiffer the blade, the more water it will move and the more resistance you will encounter.

If you have joint issues, a softer blade might be easier.

Ordinarily, I'd say the foil would be ideal and just dices on a really good technique without knee bend. It's too bad that it slips off.

Perhaps modifying it would work? some Velcro strapping around the heel / top of foot to hold it all in place and maybe even cutting some relief sections in the footpocket!?

I think that a big / stiff monofin is the wrong direction for you. You can move with surprisingly little stiffness and surface area with very little resistance.... With a decent technique.


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[Merman Lir]

I have a Rapid, and I don't think it's that good.

It has very noticeable ridges and a large footpocket with straps which are hell to hide in a tail.
Swimming-wise, I find it meh.
It's stiff and heavy, the propulsion mediocre.

I'd recommend the Hydra instead, which costs about the same as the Rapid, but has way better propulsion, is much lighter, and translucent to boot so you can make a diaphanous fluke with it.

the hydra looks brilliant to me, but doesn't seem to sell in the USA. I found it online but balked at the $100 shipping.

[Appellativo]

i love my rapid because i can do a powerful stroke and thus move a lot of water which propels me forward. bu i think i agree with ultimateswimfin.com's last post, that a softer blade would be a wise choice for her right now. have u considered the fin fin Pro? comfy, wont slip off, soft blade, under $100. i love mine for a softer bladed fin.


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[Appellativo]

Fin Fun Pro from finfunmermaid.com


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[Mermaid Menanna]

Just an update for everyone. I finally got my rapid this weekend and got to swim in it for the first time today. OMG it was wonderful. :-)
The very first thing I noticed was the size difference.
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I must admit that it was a little intimidating when I first saw it, but my first swim took care of that. As hoped, it was so much easier to swim with the rapid vs the foil. The proper movement for the dolphin kick, using the core instead of the legs came instantly when I put on the rapid, whereas I struggled with it in the foil. I would call these 2 fins like night and day to each other. I wasn't winded after 1 - 2 laps in the pool like I was with the foil, wasn't having issues moving my legs around when I needed to stand with my feet under me like I did with the foil, and after an hour in the pool I didn't hurt and ache like I did with the foil. My bottom 1/2 of my body still sinks like a rock, but with the rapid I found that it was MUCH easier to keep my legs up once I started moving, they didn't keep sinking and require me to work so hard to keep up and going with the fin. Overall I couldn't be happier and can't wait for every opportunity to get back into the water now. This was definitely the right way to go.
So it turns out, my problems with the dolphin kick weren't due to my lack of ability, but rather due to the wrong fin for me. I still can't believe the difference it made just changing to a different, larger, more rigid fin.