Ugh, anti-vaxxers!!!

[Princess Kae-Leah]

I get a sinking feeling every time I find a neat eco or veg*an blog and they turn out to be anti-vaxxers. I just don't understand the logic of these people. They say they want their children to be as healthy and safe as possible, to the point where they don't let them eat processed food and don't let them play with plastic toys because of the risks of chemicals becoming toxic, but they risk their children getting measles or polio? Makes no sense, because I'm pretty sure the chances of measles and polio ruining someone's life are higher than the risks associated with chemicals in processed food or phthalates in plastics, seems very hypocritical to me. I was especially disappointed in Alicia Silverstone's anti-vaxxer stance as she's someone who in the past inspired me to transition to a vegetarian diet and live a more eco-conscious lifestyle. Both Alicia's blog The Kind Life and a popular natural parenting blog called Eco Child's Play promote the myth that vaccines are linked to autism. I'm Autistic, so I find the implication that the risk autism is worse than the risk of measles or polio very insulting. That automatically makes them lose credibility in my eyes, at the very least knowing they're anti-vaxxers makes me take what they say with a grain of salt, or perhaps enough another sodium to make a Costco case of ramen ;). I'd like to see more advocates for a more natural lifestyle make a stance that vaccines are necessary.

[RastaMer]

I understand your frustration. This wave of anti-vaccination is a bit ridiculous and a threat to society. I'm not sure if I'll ever understand their logic...:thumbdown: After more outbreaks of things like measles and whooping cough, I hope parents will wake up and remember why we started vaccinating in the first place.

[Celaeno]

It's part of this whole wave of anti-science anti-intellectualism that has been just growing and growing over the last decade or so. It's terrifying.

[CheshireKat]

I will never understand why a parent would rather have their child have polio/measles/etc than be autistic. All it says to me is that you'd love your child less if they're austistic and you'd rather them be dead. That makes you a pretty crap parent and a particularly disgusting human being in my opinion. I have plenty of friends and know kids of friends who are autistic, and they're awesome, productive members of society.

Not to mention I got to hear the epic rant grandpa went on when he found out about the (his words) 'irresponsible, pathetic excuse of a parent and horrible person' anti-vaxxer movement. Grandpa was a doctor (no longer practicing) and the horror stories he can tell about kids with polio is just staggering. It's an awful disease. He stated that 'any parent who would put their child through that hell doesn't deserve their kid.' I had NEVER heard my grandfather talk like this before; he touts the whole 'everybody's different and that's ok, we need to always try to see things from the other persons point of view'. It was pretty shocking to the whole family.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

[Mermaid Momo]

what really gets me about anti-vaxxers is that there is no proof at all that vaccines cause autism, that whole thing was started by some famous person who I can't remember. There have been countless doctors and scientists who have done multiple studies and found absolutely NO correlation between autism and vaccines!

[IllynReaver]

You hear about the "measles parties" some of the anti vaxxers were holding? http://www.inquisitr.com/1831453/measles-parties-anti-vaccination-parents-in-california-trying-to-get-their-kids-infected/

[Mermaid Momo]

Know what I don't get about Measles parties? Why are the parents willing to get their kids infected with full blown measles but then site that the reason why the vaccine is dangerous is because it contains measles....

[Theobromine]

My favorite dumbshit anti-vaxxer "argument" is "it can't be that much of a threat since we hardly have any cases of measles or polio"

IT'S BECAUSE OF THE VACCINES YOU ASSHOLES

[AniaR]

Andrew Wakefield started the myth so he could make money. Here's a great comic that sums it all up

http://tallguywrites.livejournal.com/148012.html

[Madison MerFaerie]

Not surprisingly, this is happening in the animal kingdom too. I don't see it that much in cats and dogs, but I saw it in a lot of horse clients when I worked with horses in school. No explanation really, but some people would rather listen to their Jenny McCarthy-esque horse trainers and ignore their vets… it's mind-boggling.

[Madison MerFaerie]

And thank you, Kae-Leah for sharing your perspective here. I have never really thought of it from that angle before. If I ever personally hear anyone discussing vaccines and autism I'll be sure to speak up about how insulting that can be to those with autism.

[Princess Kae-Leah]

Apparently some are anti-vax because vaccines are tested on animals and/or contain animal ingredients. While I'm against animal testing and not completely convinced it's ever truly necessary, to me that's not a good reason to boycott vaccines. I'm willing to put my principles aside for a moment to prevent getting potentially life-threatening diseases such as polio and measles and to prevent others from getting infected. Yes I believe it's important to try to develop alternatives to animal testing, but in the mean time, it's just not a smart idea at all to boycott life-saving vaccines and medication.

[Jeblily]

I do believe vaccines are important, however I do believe they are administered improperly...
The time schedule for immunization is ridiculous, babies instead of being immediately vaccinated should be given time to develop an immune system.
Its the same concept as telling mothers not to breast feed, you rob the child of necessary growth and development stages. Formula doesn't do what breast milk does, vaccines can't make strong immune systems.
However delayed immunization only works if herd immunity is maintained, meaning they have to get their shots!The vaccinated adults/ elder children protect the little ones.
I just don't support over-vaccination it has the same effect as overuse of antibiotics... you develop supper bugs! The flu shot is redeveloped every year!
Plus instead of giving five or six shots all at once spread them out if you can! The body will be able to deal with vaccines/flu shots etc. better if you don't give to many especially if you do live virus.
I think in some cases the shot does carry more risk than the protection of the immunity... some shots such as hpv have had some serious reactions.
As long as individuals who have these bad reactions are protected I'm fine. One of my dogs came from a litter where they got the parvo vaccine at 5 weeks, two died out of a litter of four. We asked that the vet not give a booster of this vaccine due to the litters history, and also to keep her under observation for her boosters, she does react poorly. I would hate for a child with some of the same sensitivities to be barred from medical care. Some physicians and other healthcare providers require a set schedule of vaccines for service. Instead you should encourage these children into healthcare facilities and educate anti-vaccers to get their vaccines and help them understand the limited risks of most vaccines. My dad is a chiropractor and while he does try to use natural less invasive methods sometimes the body just can't defend itself, we need modern medicine for that. But kids do need exposure to some little bugs to build immunity, so when we do get new outbreaks and nastier colds etc. the body is more prepared and can handle infections better. I think we should build the body to be stronger with the aide of medicine, not use medicine to make up for a weaker body.

[Jeblily]

Also since so many vaccines are tested on animals and not people, some of the effects are unknown... There is a huge push for vaccines to be released really quickly when a new bug comes out! I just want to make sure everything is properly tested and not released too early because society demands it. I think more balance is necessary, I'm not with the never vaxx people or the vaxx for everything people.

[Jeblily]

I think the autism is ridiculous though, I'm more concerned with carcinogens and heavy metals such as mercury in the shots. Heavy metals affect allot of people our food is packaged, cooked, eaten, and contaminated with tons of metals. Adding anything foreign into your body has the potential to cause cancer, cancer is just cells that have stopped functioning properly. Things like formaldehyde (which was so heavily campaigned against in cigarettes) and aluminum over time can build up in the body. These are important components of the shot however and I think these components deserve consideration on the quantity of shots regularly received, the risk is far less than deadly illness.

[Freshwater_Nim]

Jeblily, I totally agree that infants should not be over-sanitized from birth and given the chance of developing an immune system as overly sterilized environments can drastically increase the risk of developing allergies against all sort of things. However; the only way to gain a successful immune response against measles (for example) is to survive them or get vaccinated. A healthy immune-development in a child has absolutely nothing to do with vaccination-schedules.

Just as a side note; my grandfather had polio as a child. I am a first-hand witness to the fact that even if you survive it, life afterwards is not a piece of cake. My granddad was one of the lucky ones as he was not so badly crippled as to be an invalid. Still, his left leg is partially paralyzed and never developped properly. This illness is not something that leaves you unscarred - It will stay with you for life, even if it's (luckily) a long one.


PS I've been traveling a lot in my life and got vaccines against all the nasty stuff you can imagine. Sure, sometimes you get a bruise. Or your arm/thigh feels limp for a day. I've even had a mild fever once. But I would have been seriously angry at my parents had they neglected to vaccinate me before I was able to decide these things on my own. What would I have thought of them? Nothing good I tell you. Nothing good at all.

[Mermaid Kate Silverfin]

A slight side note on mercury, since this is also an argument as to why people don't vaccinate their children. First off, because of the negative stigma associated with mercury, it has been removed from all vaccines (as far as I know of). Secondly, as with any element, the effects of mercury vary wildly with what form it in. Pure liquid elemental mercury is actually harmless, and so are many of it's compounds. Mercury vapour and some mercury salts (mercury bonded to another element in a particular way) are very toxic. Thought I'd supply some biochemistry :)

[Echidna]

Wow, people are quick to jump on a bandwagon and hate on something without having done much research.

Vaccinations can save lives, and that is what they were for and did back when they were invented.
But since then, a lot has changed.
The most important purpose vaccines serve nowadays is make the producers money.
This goes especially for pet's vaccines.

To take vaccines in the right measure- that is, only refresh them once no antibodies are left, and not too many vac combos which totally overload the immune system and can lead to disorders, allergies and health problems- is what makes them useful.
Doctors and vets today, though, have to make a living, so vaccines are recommended and administered far too often.

Many pets die because of that- I've seen it first hand with a few of ours, before I did my research and found how unscrupulous the vaccine industry is.

What isn't good for animals, isn't good for humans either.
While in the past, a vaccine against a disease was given on a single date and the next only after months, today small babies are given combo vaccines of half a dozen things.
Not only that, but aluminum, mercury and other sh!t is inside the vaccine for various reasons.

If you believe you are doing yourself a favour getting that into your body, be my guest.

Would I prefer to be vaccinated against every big disease if one is available? Absolutely.
Can I risk to get vaccinated with the current vaccine practice and its sometimes lethal side effects?
Sadly, no.

So, before you go and call people "assholes", how about getting some info first.
And I mean real info and firsthand experiences, not what the propaganda media tells you.

[Freshwater_Nim]

Wow, people are quick to jump on a bandwagon and hate on something without having done much research.

I absolutely agree and hate is always bad and to be avoided at all costs. Pro or Contra any subject. I think neither of us here is qualified to give more than a highly subjective opinion (my apologies to anyone present who does, and thank you Kate for the information on Mercury - I read up on it and learned a good few things.)

One should, in an ideal world, neither be blindly influenced by propaganda nor anti-propaganda as there is an unsurmountable amount of both.

Good information, objectivity and common sense are the ingredients to a sensible handling of vaccinations. If you have a doctor you trust and who knows what he/she is doing; nothing dangerous should occur

That aside, terrible losses happen - They should not, but they do and I sympathise with anyone having had such experiences.

I guess the bottom line for me personally is; Don't be blind.

[SeaGlass Siren]

Echidna little concerned about where you live. You've listed a plethora of problems you've had in terms of water quality and now vaccines :| where as mine is complete opposite. Time to move?

i haven't had any issues getting vaccines. But I only avoid them because I hate needles :(

[Echidna]

well said Nim :thumbs-up:

It's very hard to talk about most things objectively today, simply because truly neutral information is almost impossible to come by
(studies are sponsored by certain corporations and then say exactly what the sponsors wanted it to say is just one example; money rules the world, and the world includes media and politicians).

I have made my own experiences without reading progaganda of either side.
It is virtually impossible to "scientifically prove" that the 10 healthy dogs that died of the same stroke-like symptoms one day after their super-mega-combo vaccination died of that.
It is, however, possible to deduce this with something called common sense.


If you have a doctor you trust and who knows what he/she is doing; nothing dangerous should occur


I agree.
I have an excellent physician who frowns on everything that isn't strictly science.

When I asked him if I should freshen my vaccinations on the many diseases which are currently on the rise here due to illegal immigrants, he recommended strongly I do not, because the side-effects would we worse in his opinion than the risk I catch one of the diseases. :eek:

If a 100% hardcore scientific doctor tells you that, it's telltale.

[Echidna]

Echidna little concerned about where you live. You've listed a plethora of problems you've had in terms of water quality and now vaccines :| where as mine is complete opposite. Time to move?


I've been planning to move for many years, but it's so difficult if one isn't rich.

Also, I'm much more alert and suspicious in regard to health threats than most people, because I've been close to death several times, not to mention living with the damages misdiagnosed diseases and wrong treatments have given me.

I'm a sceptic and health nut and rightly so- I've made experiences with doctors and clinics that would shake any person's beliefs and made me wonder just how many doctors know squat about what they are doing, it's frightening. :p

PS. I hate needles too- in fact, I have a needle phobia, and in spite of that, I suffered through over 200 infusions, all of which were not only not helpful, but detrimental to my health until I found out the entire highly regarded medical sector is incredibly incompetent.

[SeaGlass Siren]

I agree though. Most doctors I have visited were competent and clearly were in the right field but others (specifically 3 others all happened to be male don't ask me why :| ) were highly questionable.

[Ilyena]

Chlorine is a toxic gas, Sodium explodes when it hits water, but we eat them when they're bonded together as salt. My 5 cents worth on the mercury thing.

[Mermaid Kate Silverfin]

Exactly Ilyena. Oxygen is deadly in too high a concentration! Everything to do with chemistry always needs context! :)

[AptaMer]

Chlorine is a toxic gas, Sodium explodes when it hits water, but we eat them when they're bonded together as salt. My 5 cents worth on the mercury thing.

Hi Ilyene, I would beg of you, please don't consume mercury in any form, no matter what it's bonded to.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1175560-overview

[Aziara]

Allow me to play devil's advocate. I'm sensing a lot of hate directed at so-called 'anti-vaxxers'. I'm guessing many of you have never actually done the research? I don't mean that as an insult or anything, but I found these links after very quick web searches. I would suggest not just going along with what you've been told by the vaccine companies and checking out third party research. Keep in mind that the vaccine companies are just that--companies that need to make money.

The flu shot is more dangerous than the flu, and also ineffective:
http://www.bewellbuzz.com/general/10-reasons-flu-shots-dangerous-flu/
http://wellnessachiever.net/flu-shot-more-dangerous-than-flu/
http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/04/health/flu-vaccine-mutated-virus/index.html

What if other vaccines are also ineffective? There are no long term studies of vaccines. Many think that vaccines are 100% effective at preventing disease. They are most certainly not. And if it does cause some immunity, it is often short lived. Whereas catching the disease usually leads to life-long immunity.
http://healthimpactnews.com/2011/two-new-mainstream-studies-show-vaccines-are-ineffective/
(http://healthimpactnews.com/2011/two-new-mainstream-studies-show-vaccines-are-ineffective/)
Measles, whooping cough, flu, rubella, mumps and chicken pox are not deadly if properly treated. So a parent is not choosing between certain death and autism when they refuse to vaccinate. And because the vaccinated population thinks they are safe, they may spread it unknowingly (They body sheds a virus after it is introducted, whether symptoms are present or not). There are cases of a parent contracting polio from the live virus passing through the child.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/staten-island-dad-22-5m-polio-case-lederle-laboratories-article-1.369105
(http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/staten-island-dad-22-5m-polio-case-lederle-laboratories-article-1.369105)
Tetanus rates were dropping well before the advent of the vaccine for it. Why? Proper wound care.
http://www.vaclib.org/links/tetanusindex.htm\
(http://www.vaclib.org/links/tetanusindex.htm)
And the trump card of vaccine proponents everywhere, herd immunity, is a MYTH:
http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2012/02/18/the-deadly-impossibility-of-herd-immunity-through-vaccination-by-dr-russell-blaylock/
(http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2012/02/18/the-deadly-impossibility-of-herd-immunity-through-vaccination-by-dr-russell-blaylock/)

[AptaMer]

A slight side note on mercury, since this is also an argument as to why people don't vaccinate their children. First off, because of the negative stigma associated with mercury, it has been removed from all vaccines (as far as I know of). Secondly, as with any element, the effects of mercury vary wildly with what form it in. Pure liquid elemental mercury is actually harmless, and so are many of it's compounds. Mercury vapour and some mercury salts (mercury bonded to another element in a particular way) are very toxic. Thought I'd supply some biochemistry :)

Hi Mermaid Kate Silverfin,

Thiomersal (spelled Thimerosal in the United States) is 49.6% ethyl mercury. Like any organic salt of mercury it is exptremely toxic, especially because of it's high permeability to cell membranes, in particular, the blood-brain barrier. It does at least clear the body much faster than methyl mercury, the substance that caused the horrible mercury poisoning in Minimata, Japan, and among the Ojibway people of Grassy Narrows in Canada

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/mercury-poisoning-effects-continue-at-grassy-narrows-1.1132578

but its higher permeability to the brain does cause concern.

Also, thiomersal is still in some vaccines.

It is a myth that mercury has been removed from all vaccines. You can read a list of the kinds of vaccines that still contain thiomersal as of 2015 in this document from the US Centers for Disease Control

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/thimerosal.htm

and in particular, the US FDA still allows administration of mercury containing flu vaccines to children under 6.

The situation is pretty similar in Australia and Canada, with certain adult vaccines still containing mercury, perhaps the most notorious being the Fluart vaccine made by Novartis. In Australia, though, no child under 5 may be injected with any vaccine containing thiomersal, and in Canada no child under age 6 can be given a vaccine with mercury.

There are flu vaccines for sale that do not contain mercury. If you live in the USA and are determined to give a young child a flu shot, it would be wise to ascertain that the vaccine is mercury free.

Note also that the adjuvant squalene is allowed in the United States, but not in Canada. It's hard to say, though, whether injecting aluminum salts (aluminum hydroxide, aluminum phosphate, or potassium aluminum sulfate) the adjuvants allowed in Canada, is a good idea or not ...

[Echidna]

Thanks Aziara and Aptamer, for providing some info.

I was contemplating to, but I'm just so lazy (and I usually think, everyone can go read up themselves, especially when they're 100% convinced they know it all already.)

And my first reaction to "Pure liquid elemental mercury is actually harmless" was to say, "tell that to Emperor Qin".
I know, I know.
Flippant.

[Aziara]

And my first reaction to "Pure liquid elemental mercury is actually harmless" was to say, "tell that to Emperor Qin".
I know, I know.
Flippant.
HA!
Am I sick in the head that I find that hilarious?
Also, I find it a bit ironic that mercury used to be thought of as medicine, we know better now, but it's still in our medicine!

[Prairie Mermaid Jamie]

This thread is insane.

Vaccines DO NOT CAUSE AUTISM. autism is a sensory disorder that you are born with. It just so happens that between 1 and 3 years is when 90% of cases show symptoms. Which is also the same time children are due for vaccines. Jenny macarthy is a complete moron and her son doesnt even have autism.
My little brother is autistic, much more severe then the mer posting here. For 19 years ive followed, learned, and was specially trained just for him to care for him and his needs. He was never vaccinated.

Second. Not one link anyone has provided i would consider fully relevant. Buzzfeed is not a credible source for science, like come on.

Vaccines other then gardasil (the hpv vaccine) and the ever changing flu shot (which changes every year because of an altering virus, not because the got it wrong) have had over 70 YEARS of testing and they know they are safe.

Vaccines for children no longer contain thiomersal. And vaccines are 95% saline. The virus and the chimicals they use to break the virus down to its tiniest bits are so microscopic its incredible. What form of mercury used it vaccines isnt the same form as what youd find in a thermostat. Just like flouride for your teeth comes from a rock. The ones with theirmosal font have more then 1% in it.

Do you know how the vaccine is made or why they work? Ever get chicken pox as a kid and have your parents throw a party so all your friends would get it too? Its because the only way the human body can deal and protect is to be exposed. Thats what vaccines do. They expose your body to a small percent of 1 molecule of live virus, which is just enough to allow your body to make its own antibodies against it. The "chemicals" in them are what they use to break the virus down to get that small percent. The rest is saline.

Every drug manufacturer has their step by stepp process and all contents in the packaging and on their websites. Also there are dozens of youtube videos that actually show some being made.

I live in alberta. Thanks to anti vax people, we had a huge outbreak of measles and for those that dont know, measles cant be administered till 6 months. Measles is also deadly to infants. Three almost died here because some parent refused to vaccinate and took their sick kid in public, endagering everyone else. DISNEYLAND, ANYONE???

I should probably mention i chose to do a term science paper on vaccines. Ive seen all the info from all sides and theres no genuine science behind the anti vax movement. Vaccines work. Theres a reason no one dies from polio anymore. I hope canada adopts the law the states is starting and wont allow unvaccinated kids in public school. My kid is vaccinated. It breaks my heart to take her and have her hurt by needles, but she and i both know thats whats best. If a 9 year old can figure it out, why cant fully grown adults???????.?..

[SeaGlass Siren]

Actually my school in Toronto suspended students until they got their shots

[SeaGlass Siren]

Anyway. Judging from all this back and forth I'm beginning to think this isn't gonna end. But Im also thinking that some practices in other countries aren't the same.

[Prairie Mermaid Jamie]

You are right Seaglass. It will never end. And thats the sad part. Canada has high standards when it comes to letting stuff into the country. If vaccines can make it. Im down for it. Adults need to be revaccinated after ten years for measles. Im due for mine in a few weeks! I volunteer at my kids school. No way would i risk any of those tiny lives by not having it done.

Herd immunity: it only works when everyone who can get vaccinated, does. Its to protect those who cannot be immunized. Like cancer patients, aids, hep b and c, anyone with an imunocompromised body. It was never ment to protect those who chose not to vaccinate for silly reasons like a celebrity said so.

[Mermaid Lunette]

This thread is insane.

Vaccines DO NOT CAUSE AUTISM. autism is a sensory disorder that you are born with. It just so happens that between 1 and 3 years is when 90% of cases show symptoms. Which is also the same time children are due for vaccines. Jenny macarthy is a complete moron and her son doesnt even have autism.
My little brother is autistic, much more severe then the mer posting here. For 19 years ive followed, learned, and was specially trained just for him to care for him and his needs. He was never vaccinated.

Second. Not one link anyone has provided i would consider fully relevant. Buzzfeed is not a credible source for science, like come on.

Vaccines other then gardasil (the hpv vaccine) and the ever changing flu shot (which changes every year because of an altering virus, not because the got it wrong) have had over 70 YEARS of testing and they know they are safe.

Vaccines for children no longer contain thiomersal. And vaccines are 95% saline. The virus and the chimicals they use to break the virus down to its tiniest bits are so microscopic its incredible. What form of mercury used it vaccines isnt the same form as what youd find in a thermostat. Just like flouride for your teeth comes from a rock. The ones with theirmosal font have more then 1% in it.

Do you know how the vaccine is made or why they work? Ever get chicken pox as a kid and have your parents throw a party so all your friends would get it too? Its because the only way the human body can deal and protect is to be exposed. Thats what vaccines do. They expose your body to a small percent of 1 molecule of live virus, which is just enough to allow your body to make its own antibodies against it. The "chemicals" in them are what they use to break the virus down to get that small percent. The rest is saline.

Every drug manufacturer has their step by stepp process and all contents in the packaging and on their websites. Also there are dozens of youtube videos that actually show some being made.

I live in alberta. Thanks to anti vax people, we had a huge outbreak of measles and for those that dont know, measles cant be administered till 6 months. Measles is also deadly to infants. Three almost died here because some parent refused to vaccinate and took their sick kid in public, endagering everyone else. DISNEYLAND, ANYONE???

I should probably mention i chose to do a term science paper on vaccines. Ive seen all the info from all sides and theres no genuine science behind the anti vax movement. Vaccines work. Theres a reason no one dies from polio anymore. I hope canada adopts the law the states is starting and wont allow unvaccinated kids in public school. My kid is vaccinated. It breaks my heart to take her and have her hurt by needles, but she and i both know thats whats best. If a 9 year old can figure it out, why cant fully grown adults???????.?..


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Aziara]

*sigh*
Did anyone even look at the links I posted?? I had not one from buzzfeed. I simply was presenting the reasons why anyone would not wish to vaccinate, and why that should be a parent's right. I'm not saying vaccines are evil incarnate, simply trying to say they aren't the be all, end all of medicine.
The important thing is to make an INFORMED decision. Not to scream 'herd immunity' at the top of your lungs until all personal rights are abolished. Whatever happened to body autonomy?

[Mermaid Lunette]

You are right Seaglass. It will never end. And thats the sad part. Canada has high standards when it comes to letting stuff into the country. If vaccines can make it. Im down for it. Adults need to be revaccinated after ten years for measles. Im due for mine in a few weeks! I volunteer at my kids school. No way would i risk any of those tiny lives by not having it done.

Herd immunity: it only works when everyone who can get vaccinated, does. Its to protect those who cannot be immunized. Like cancer patients, aids, hep b and c, anyone with an imunocompromised body. It was never ment to protect those who chose not to vaccinate for silly reasons like a celebrity said so.




^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Celaeno]

Measles/mumps/rubella/pertussis are deadly, especially to the very young and very old. Saying that if they're treated properly there's no risk of death is reckless. Sure, if you're otherwise healthy and get treated quickly, your odds are good. Lots of people can't afford treatment when they're sick, and the already vulnerable populations can die even with treatment. I don't just vaccinate my family to protect us, but to protect everyone. As stated above, herd immunity breaks down when you have large segments of the population electing to not vaccinate. We haven't had serious pandemics in our lifetimes because of vaccines, so the risk of illness and death doesn't look as serious to us nowadays as it did to our grandparents and great-grandparents. But deciding to not vaccinate because you've never seen anyone with polio and don't know anyone who has died from the flu or whooping cough is like no longer taking your stroke medicine because you haven't been having strokes, or taking yourself off antidepressants because you're not sad anymore.

[AniaR]

I'm guessing many of you have never actually done the research?

*looks at her two degrees on the wall* no... pretty sure I've done the research.

PS people don't seem to remember there are different types of mercury. The kind it vaccines is the same kind the body processes naturally all the time, and not the same kind that is in fish !

I think the comic I posted earlier really breaks down the autism myth. This one tackles the other myths!

In a 2011 issue (http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c5347) of BMJ (the British Medical Journal), investigative reporter Brian Deer slammed the infamous Lancet study linking vaccines to autism as fraudulent, pointing out that key facts were distorted to support the autism link.
The 15 year-old study claimed that 8 children developed “regressive autism” after getting a combination of vaccines to prevent mumps and rubella. The study was led by Andrew Wakefield, a British doctor who had his license revoked in May of 2011 as a result of “serious professional misconduct.”
After reviewing the health records of the subjects involved in the study and interviewing their families and doctors, Deer found numerous inconsistencies, some of which were recounted in a 2011 piece by NPR (http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2011/01/06/132703314/study-linking-childhood-vaccine-and-autism-was-fraudulent):


Only 1 of 9 kids said to have regressive autism clearly had it. Three had no form of autism.
Contrary to the paper’s assertion that all the kids were normal before vaccination, five had some sort of preexisting developmental problems.
According to the paper, Behavioral problems popped up days after vaccination didn’t actually appear for months in some kids, a fact that undercuts the causality of vaccination.

It was well known that Wakefield’s conclusions were questionable from the beginning. But the Lancet study is now widely believed to be the source of what eventually sparked widespread anti-vaccination paranoia — now being blamed for the recurrence of diseases that were once brought under control by the proper vaccinations.
An editorial (http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c7452.full?sid=33c5a12b-0147-48c8-a6db-cb761db43e39) accompanying the BMJ piece provided additional clear evidence that the data was falsified, which should have closed the door on this damaging vaccine scare for good.
Since then, the anti-vaxxer movement has persisted and even grown in its influence despite lot of important information debunking its pseudoscience. That being said, this brilliant comic strip by Maki Naro (https://medium.com/@sciencecomic) is one of the most concise debunking efforts we’ve ever seen.
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[AniaR]

and for people who didnt click the other one here it is in full, very well explained:

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[AniaR]

IF SCIENCE DOESN'T GET YOU MAYBE THIS LETTER FROM FAMOUS CHILDREN'S AUTHOR WILL

Roald Dahl on Olivia, writing in 1986 "MEASLES: A dangerous illness.

Olivia, my eldest daughter, caught measles when she was seven years old. As the illness took its usual course I can remember reading to her often in bed and not feeling particularly alarmed about it. Then one morning, when she was well on the road to recovery, I was sitting on her bed showing her how to fashion little animals out of coloured pipe-cleaners, and when it came to her turn to make one herself, I noticed that her fingers and her mind were not working together and she couldn't do anything.
'Are you feeling all right?' I asked her.
'I feel all sleepy,' she said.
In an hour, she was unconscious. In twelve hours she was dead.
The measles had turned into a terrible thing called measles encephalitis and there was nothing the doctors could do to save her. That was twenty-four years ago in 1962, but even now, if a child with measles happens to develop the same deadly reaction from measles as Olivia did, there would still be nothing the doctors could do to help her.
On the other hand, there is today something that parents can do to make sure that this sort of tragedy does not happen to a child of theirs. They can insist that their child is immunised against measles. I was unable to do that for Olivia in 1962 because in those days a reliable measles vaccine had not been discovered. Today a good and safe vaccine is available to every family and all you have to do is to ask your doctor to administer it.
It is not yet generally accepted that measles can be a dangerous illness. Believe me, it is. In my opinion parents who now refuse to have their children immunised are putting the lives of those children at risk. In America, where measles immunisation is compulsory, measles like smallpox, has been virtually wiped out.
Here in Britain, because so many parents refuse, either out of obstinacy or ignorance or fear, to allow their children to be immunised, we still have a hundred thousand cases of measles every year. Out of those, more than 10,000 will suffer side effects of one kind or another. At least 10,000 will develop ear or chest infections. About 20 will die.
LET THAT SINK IN.
Every year around 20 children will die in Britain from measles.
So what about the risks that your children will run from being immunised?
They are almost non-existent. Listen to this. In a district of around 300,000 people, there will be only one child every 250 years who will develop serious side effects from measles immunisation! That is about a million to one chance. I should think there would be more chance of your child choking to death on a chocolate bar than of becoming seriously ill from a measles immunisation.
So what on earth are you worrying about? It really is almost a crime to allow your child to go unimmunised.
The ideal time to have it done is at 13 months, but it is never too late. All school-children who have not yet had a measles immunisation should beg their parents to arrange for them to have one as soon as possible.
Incidentally, I dedicated two of my books to Olivia, the first was James and the Giant Peach. That was when she was still alive. The second was The BFG, dedicated to her memory after she had died from measles. You will see her name at the beginning of each of these books. And I know how happy she would be if only she could know that her death had helped to save a good deal of illness and death among other children."

[Starfrit]

I get so infuriated when people refuse to vaccinate their kids on the grounds of "I don't want an autistic child!" Like, the ignorance surrounding it disgusts me.

I understand people wanting to make their own decisions for themselves and wanting to choose not to get vaccinated, but here's the problem-- When it comes to vaccines, it's not all about you. You deciding to opt out of important vaccines puts other people, who for varying reasons have to opt out of shots because of legitimate medical reasons, at a greater risk of contracting what would otherwise be a fully preventable disease. This shit can kill people.

There are some things that we as a society have to do to protect those around us with weaker immune systems, and if otherwise healthy people are gonna shirk that responsibility and put others at risk just so they can sit on their misinformed Moral High Horses and feel good about themselves, then that's just selfish douchebaggery. Point blank.

I get all of my vaccines when I have to. Ever since I was a kid, whenever I get a shot of any kind, I immediately pass out for anywhere between 10 minutes to half an hour, then I have the sniffles and flu-like symptoms for a week. Doesn't matter what the shot was, that's how it's always been. It's miserable and I hate it, but it has no long-term effect on me, so I do it anyway because I have to. Because I know it's not about me, it's about herd immunity and helping protect the people around me who can't get it. I don't want to be responsible for someone contracting a disease and potentially dying, why the hell do so many others seem okay with taking that risk?

I have so many feelings on the subject. So. Many. I've had to deal with so many Anti-Vaxxers claiming everything from "Autism!" to "If we allow the government to make vaccines mandatory, they'll start injecting our children with trackers and brainwash them!" There's just so much stupid and ignorance on the subject I can't even cope.

[Mermaid Galene]

If you are a member of a society, you have responsibilities that go along with being a part of that society. One of them is reasonable responsibility to protect the health of others. This involves not getting drunk and driving. It involves not sneezing in someone's face. It involves not serving spoiled food to someone. And it involves protecting others from preventable communicable diseases that you or your children carry. Setting aside, for the moment, the utter lack of credible evidence linking vaccines to autism or other panic-based notions, the fact is: there are enormous societal and individual consequences to the "choice" of not vaccinating. Consequences that go far beyond one individual or one family. I very nearly lost my hearing permanently this past winter due to contracting a mutated herpes simplex virus from a child at a gig. This is the measles/mumps kind of common virus that is extremely contagious. I was lucky, because I recognized what it was and got immediate emergency treatment. (And I am still dealing with the side effects of the long term high dose prednisone that was necessary to treat the illness.) Had I delayed even 48 hours, I would now be deaf in my right ear. Can I prove that I caught this from an unvaccinated child? No, but the odds favor that scenario.

Make no mistake: the risks of serious illness - both known forms and new, mutated forms - from even one unvaccinated individual extends not just to that one person and his/her family, but potentially to thousands and millions of other people. We have laws in societies to protect the many from the ill advised behaviors of a few. Vaccination is no different.

[Maclanahan]

*sigh*
Did anyone even look at the links I posted?? I had not one from buzzfeed. I simply was presenting the reasons why anyone would not wish to vaccinate, and why that should be a parent's right. I'm not saying vaccines are evil incarnate, simply trying to say they aren't the be all, end all of medicine.
The important thing is to make an INFORMED decision. Not to scream 'herd immunity' at the top of your lungs until all personal rights are abolished. Whatever happened to body autonomy?

I gave you the benefit of the doubt and looking at your links I found that none of those sources are credible. Most of them refer to "studies" but fail to link to or cite a single one. (One site that did link somewhere, linked to another article it posted that had no resources.)

The couple of the actual sources to these articles link to the Center of Disease Control about the success/failure of flu vaccines issued over the past few years. And while yes the flu vaccine isn't super effective the CDC admits that they make their best guess on which strains may be the most virulent in a given year, so effectiveness is not guaranteed.

The last "article" about Herd Immunization is complete codswallop because it is the opinion of a single doctor who's research has not been peer reviewed and who also fails to cite his sources of research.

I'm fully supportive of body autonomy up until the point of endangering other people. if someone doesn't want vaccines all the power to them. I just hope they are fine with living with little to no human contact for the rest of their lives.

[Maclanahan]

Okay, reading this thread there seems to be a common misconception about mercury and it effects on health.

Here is the Material Safety Data Sheet on mercury. (https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/96252.htm) This information is standard to all work areas that are at risk to mercury exposure in the United States, Canada, and the European Union (as of 2015).

I myself have been trained specifically for mercury exposure because I spend two summers working at a gold mine where the mercury content was/is a constant threat. I have received training (currently expired) on the measuring and handling of mercury, and I have undergone several in depth tests to check the mercury content in my body.

So with that out of the way, yes mercury in all forms is toxic. Mercury is a carcinogen and will cause damage to cells in large enough amounts. Liquid Mercury is more difficult to cause via external contact due to it extremely high density, however it still can be absorbed through the skin. Ingesting or eye contact with mercury will is just a really fast way for it to enter your body.

Mercury vapor is far more dangerous because you cannot see it and is easily absorbed by your eyes and lungs (and skin if the vapor is more than 0.1 milligrams per meter cubed).

However most cases of mercury poisoning occur over constant long exposure periods with trace amounts of vapor (If I remember right, around < 60 parts per million). It takes approx. 40 days for mercury to be processed and expelled from your body. However if too much congregates in your blood or digestive system it will cause damage to your organs.

Vaccines, according to the FDA (http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228), contain at most 1 microgram (0.001 milligrams) of mercury. Which is far below the safe exposure limits of the chemical and will be completely expelled from the body in about a month, if not less depending on the individual (children).

In conclusion, yes mercury is bad for you, but it takes a significant amount and/or chronic exposure for it to actually harm someone.

[Elodea the Mermaid]

Also, regarding the body autonomy argument, "your liberty to swing your fist ends just where my nose begins." People who argue that they should have the right not to vaccinate their "healthy" children are being grossly, criminally negligent with regards to other people in society who are immunocompromised and cannot be vaccinated. They depend urgently on our herd immunity. If my newborn infant or, heaven forbid, child sick with cancer and undergoing chemotherapy died as a result of a disease contracted from an unvaccinated child, I would pursue criminal charges against the parents.

[Elodea the Mermaid]

Oops, Tieri already said that, and better. What Tieri said!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

[Madison MerFaerie]

Raina, I too love when people pull the "you haven't done your research" card. Bachelors in Biology, Masters in Cellular and Molecular Biology, Doctorate in Veterinary Medicine. I don't practice any medicine that is not evidence based. I know how vaccines work. I've not only done my research, I've participated in the clinical trials. So thanks for trying to belittle me. You can believe what you want, and I'll believe what I learned in doctorate level immunology.

[AniaR]

http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/anti-vaccination-advocate-takedown/ <--- super viral example of what immunologists are saying

In fact, Immunologists proved all the points the two comics I posted made. They also provided all of these points! http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/vaccination-myths-busted-by-science-cheat-sheet-on-immunisation/

As someone with compromise auto-immuno issues I am unable to partake in all the vaccines available to me. I rely on herd immunity and I almost died as a child from whooping cough when my lungs filled with fluid. As I work with children my main exposure to constant serious illness comes almost directly from unvaccinated kids. Since it's my life, and I've almost died a few times... I ya know, take it pretty seriously.

Also I think this is A FANTASTIC TIME FOR ME TO SHARE THIS AMAZING ARTICLE ABOUT OPINIONS VS FACTS. For the people crying anti vaccine "No It's not your opinion: you're just wrong"
http://www.houstonpress.com/arts/no-it-s-not-your-opinion-you-re-just-wrong-updated-7611752 <-- share that link everywhere my merfolk and be sure to read it because it's an EXCELLENT link.

[Mermaid Lunette]

uuuuuuuuuuuh, i may be misreading things but i am pretty sure mermaid madison is on your side raina...i looked back through the thread and she appears to be pretty pro vaccination...

[Mermaid Lunette]

i think she was actually SUPPORTING you and actually commenting on the mer that said "did you even do your research"

at leats from what i can tell?

[AniaR]

i think she was actually SUPPORTING you and actually commenting on the mer that said "did you even do your research"

at leats from what i can tell?

You're right, tapatalk went wonky on me and combined hers and
Aziara (http://mernetwork.com/index/member.php?2122-Aziara) comments and it looked like Madison was making all the comments that Aziara did. I read from PC and I see it's two different people, with two different views! So my apologies to madison.
My responds to anti vaxxers are directed at the links and comments made by
Aziara (http://mernetwork.com/index/member.php?2122-Aziara) and not Madison, and I apologize for the confusion!

[Madison MerFaerie]

Uhhh, I think that I may have come off completely wrong here. I'm pro-vaccine. I'm VERY pro-vaccine. I'm gonna vaccinate the shit out of my kids if I ever have any. Raina, I agree 100% with everything you've posted. You had previously posted that you have two degrees on the wall and that you HAVE done your research on vaccines. You said this in response to someone who alluded to the fact that you haven't done your research. I was agreeing with you in that it is annoying that people ASSUME that others haven't done their research. Hope that makes more sense.

Person A believes X
Person B believes Y
Person A says "Anyone who believes X hasn't done their research"

I hate that argument, it's ridiculous. And I've seen it on more than one thread on this website. If anyone is going to tell me that I haven't done my research, I'm going to back it up with my education. I would never call someone out of name for believing in something, and I wouldn't tell people that they haven't done their research just because their opinions don't line up with mine.

I think maybe since I used your name in my post you thought I was attacking you? I wasn't. At all. Maybe I missed a comma or something.

[AniaR]

^ see my previous post above yours. Tapatalk crapped out on me and you and
Aziara (http://mernetwork.com/index/member.php?2122-Aziara) merged which caused some serious confusion on my end. lol my apologies. Hopefully if you see that, that's why it made me so mad! haha. I see we are on the same side. (and thanks for the clarification on your comment! )

[Madison MerFaerie]

i think she was actually SUPPORTING you and actually commenting on the mer that said "did you even do your research"

at leats from what i can tell?

Ahhh thank you Lunette, you beat me to it. Yes, that's it exactly.

[AniaR]

THE INTERNET

when it works it's great but when it doesnt it's...

https://media2.giphy.com/media/3t7RAFhu75Wwg/200_s.gif

[Madison MerFaerie]

Hopefully if you see that, that's why it made me so mad!

I see, I see. Carry on, m'lady!

[Mermaid Lunette]

oh good, misunderstanding averted.

soooo, yep, science says, VACCINATE EVERYBODY.



(everybody whom can)

[Theobromine]

Thank you thank you thank you to everyone who has posted sane, science-based refutations to the anti-vaccination "arguments" since I checked this thread this morning. Also thank you for posting the link to that Houston Press article, which EVERYONE SHOULD READ. It contains one of my favorite John Oliver quotes: "You don’t need people’s opinion on a fact. You might as well have a poll asking: 'Which number is bigger, 15 or 5?' or 'Do owls exist?' or 'Are there hats?'" Everyone understands the difference between opinions and facts, I hope? If not, READ THAT ARTICLE. Opinions based on facts and hard evidence do actually carry weight, but opinions based solely on one's own biases and emotions carry no weight and deserve no consideration.

*also looks at two science degrees on my wall*

A hugely pervasive problem of society today is that people are not being taught to think critically. There is a HUGE difference between credible sources (mostly research papers and other primary sources) and non-credible sources. You can't say "I've done my research" if you've just read a bunch of articles on alternative health websites. Those types of websites are NOT credible sources. Most of the time they do not even back up their claims with any type of citations whatsoever. These websites absolutely do not have the credibility of peer-reviewed research studies. Acting like you know more about a subject than that field's EXPERTS, who have studied and trained for YEARS in that discipline, is not just a harmless mistake. Perpetuating false information like this is dangerous. Spewing pseudoscientific mumbo-jumbo and then having the gall to act self-righteous about it is pretty appalling, because misinformation spreads like wildfire on the internet.

The thing about the human brain is that it is extremely suggestible. It also tends to look for look for patterns and relationships and draw conclusions based on apparent correlations even if there IS no relationship present. Remember, correlation does not equal causation! For an excellent example of this, please check out the website Spurious Correlations: http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations It plots out random datasets to visually demonstrate how there can be an apparent correlation between two completely unrelated topics.

Scientists are very carefully trained to be analytical and dispassionate in order to eliminate bias. We consider all the evidence before reaching a conclusion. These analytical skills are of course essential for conducting research, but are also very useful for everyday life. For example, being able to discern the difference between well-researched facts and wild extrapolations in news articles, or making informed medical decisions. I wish that EVERYONE were taught better critical thinking and analytical skills, because those skills ARE so important in telling fact from fiction, and I can tell you from my education and personal experience that many if not most news articles that report scientific findings do so incompletely or inaccurately. In some cases it is just details that are left out which would have helped clarify the point of the findings, but in a lot of cases the media actually reports the OPPOSITE of what the actual study found. And most people just take those news articles at face value and don't even think to look into the sources. Then of course the misinterpreted findings will be re-reported and regurgitated by all sorts of other "news" and social media sites, essentially leading to a giant game of internet telephone where most of the real facts are filtered out. It would benefit everyone if more people were less credulous and more analytical.

So please everyone, don't perpetuate misinformation. You don't get to pick and choose which facts are true based on whether you like them or not. And when you make a statement like "So, before you go and call people "assholes", how about getting some info first. And I mean real info and firsthand experiences, not what the propaganda media tells you" try taking your own advice before you advise other people. Although not so much with the "firsthand experiences", because anecdotes do not equal evidence. Remember what I said about bias, and the human brain being very suggestible? It is easy to not only misinterpret experiences, but also to take those interpretations and extrapolate them to other situations. But that does not make those extrapolations true. Less jumping to conclusions, more critical thinking.

Also, want to know the best part about the scientific method? Over time, our views can change as we refine our research methods and uncover new facts! Many people seem to think that scientists hold these rigid, unchanging beliefs, but that couldn't be further from the case. In fact, scientists are the most open-minded people, because we base our views of the world on quantifiable evidence but recognize that new evidence may be discovered in the future and can revise our views accordingly. Here is a basic definition (http://teacher.nsrl.rochester.edu/phy_labs/appendixe/appendixe.html): "The scientific method is the process by which scientists, collectively and over time, endeavor to construct an accurate (that is, reliable, consistent and non-arbitrary) representation of the world." Here are the four steps of the scientific method:
1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena. 2. Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena. In physics, the hypothesis often takes the form of a causal mechanism or a mathematical relation.
3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations.
4. Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters and properly performed experiments.
This means that scientific studies are conducted with LARGE enough sample sizes to be representative of the group and minimize the effects of outliers, control groups are used to eliminate any potential bias, and the results have to be repeatable by other researchers. So when you read or hear about scientific facts, that means the facts are based on the BEST evidence and quantifiable observations we can gather, NOT speculation.

So to the people out there who have still been resistant to facts, I hope this little explanation has helped clear up the reasons why facts are more credible than opinions. And hopefully next time you read some article on a natural/alternative health website or some overshared hand-wringing claim on social media, you will stop to think about whether those claims factual are verifiable and or not. Remember: critical thinking!!

[Theobromine]

Also, on a slightly lighter (but still relevant) note, I'm going to share the incredibly astute Tim Minchin's take on science-deniers:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhGuXCuDb1U

In fact, Tim Minchin gives an even better explanation of the scientific method than I did: "Science adjusts its views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved."

[AniaR]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/2263954/lady-gaga-funny-o.gif

[AnnaAbyss]

The hilarious thing about anti-vaxxers is that it's most likely going to backfire on them.
If you refuse to believe in science and actual evidence then I'm going to assume you have no sense of logic at ALL.

[Ilyena]

Hi Ilyene, I would beg of you, please don't consume mercury in any form, no matter what it's bonded to.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/1175560-overview

I wasn't saying to consume mercury or anything like that. Just the quote seemed in context about the vaccinations and if they really cared about chemicals being put into them they'd stop eating quite a many things because of what they're composed of naturally dangerous elements (even though vaccines are man made).