Aquariums

[Mermaid Kassandra]

The title says it all!

I would like to talk with the community abut aquariums (not dolphin or killer whales I mean aquariums aquariums like the one where you can also see other species of sea creatures not only cetacean) what are your thoughts, do you think they make mistakes like the others structures?

I would like to hear the community thoughts not to start drama or anything similar it's just to share opinions.

So what do you think? Do you think they should close, detain only certain breeds our anything else?

[Echidna]

It entirely depends on the type of aquarium and the species they house.

If the provided habitat is a good substitute for the natural one, it's ok in my book.
That is easier with smaller species, of course.

Large species or any which need a lot of room (more than provided) should not be held.
This should not only apply to aquariums and zoos, but also to farms and private owners!

[Mermaid Cecelia]

I think that aquariums are important for people who don't live in areas near an ocean but still want to experience it. I know that I became interested in the ocean after visting the aquarium in Tennessee, and since TN is a landlocked state I wouldn't have been able to have that experience without having to spend a lot more money on a beach trip. Since visiting that aquarium I've gotten into mermaiding and will be going into college to get a degree that will help me get a job in the marine sciences. As long as the aquarium is a good habitat for the species, like echidna said, an aquarium is a very valuable educational tool and research tool. A lot of aquariums employ research technicians to conduct their research in a more controlled environment, which can lead to all sorts of positive discoveries that can help us understand how to take better care of the ocean an it's inhabitants.

[Ciriun]

I am in no way qualified to judge if aquariums are the ideal homes for the animals in them, but I sure do love visiting aquariums. Currently Shedd Aquarium in Chicago is my favorite. Yes, they do have some cetaceans and I know that is questionable, but I think they try hard to make the good they do outweigh the negatives. And their other exhibits are beautiful!

Does anyone know if touch tanks are humane? I find them very hard to resist, especially the all sturgeon one, so I'd hate to think they might be detrimental for the animals in them.

[Echidna]

Does anyone know if touch tanks are humane? I find them very hard to resist, especially the all sturgeon one, so I'd hate to think they might be detrimental for the animals in them.

I don't know if they are "humane", but touching a fish can harm it physically, because the slime coat fish have on their scales is a part of the fish's skin.
Touching, stroking and handling can damage it, leaving the fish's scales exposed to germs and parasites.
Many fish which are "release-caught" or otherwise handled will die after being thrown back.

At least, that's what we were taught in marine biology.
I know many fish owners who swear petting their fish is wonderful and their fish enjoy it;
and you see loads of biologists handle fish on a general basis, so I'm not sure who is right.

[Mermaid Jessica Pearl]

Many aquariums in australia add a lot to research and breeding programs which are so important in continuing the health and safety of so many species and habitats. As well as the obvious awareness and education factors. We have a turtle rehab centre at ours. And the aquarium I performed at in Queensland too! So important!
We have a touch tank at our aquarium but they cleverly fill it with animals that are smart enough or fast enough to keep away from the sides!

[Mermaid Kassandra]

Great thank you for your reply guys!!

Reading this really opens my mind about it.



And what about aquariums that hold cetaceans and other "big breeds" like manatees?



I'm asking this as after what happened at Sea World everyone seems to wait for the occasion to questionate about every single structure that holds marine life even if they seem to be doing it in the right way.

[New York Mermaid]

Before I was a mermaid I was a Marine Mammal Educator/ assistant in animal care and training (and still work in marine animal rescue) . So you pretty much know where I stand here. Our aquarium worked and continues to work alongside researchers and scientists besides working on breeding programs for endangered species, We worked on self awareness tests, echolocation and hearing, and so much more.

Our aquarium was able to successfully breed fish which are considered now extinct in the wild (I believe they were in process of working on a species reintroduction with the fish before I became ill), they helped start programs to protect coral reefs and sea life, they work alongside other aquariums when it comes to animal care and rescue. They work with many non profit organizations all around the world and share information among other things. Aquariums are important and I can explain why. Aquariums give kids a chance to see so many things in one place and at one time (not many people can say they saw a dolphin, a polar bear and a shark all in one place and in one day), and also teach newer generations about what's important about our oceans and what can be done to help save animals and their habitats. I remember teaching a group of 20 kids about our dolphins and by the end of it all alot of them wanted to start a clean ocean type of program in their school. To a kid there's nothing like seeing an animal up close and watching them become mesmerized by it, and use the animal ambassador in front of them to teach them about not only the animal, but the situation of the ecosystem the animal's wild counterparts face. Not everyone has access to an ocean, not everyone can dive or take a boat etc., not everyone especially at this time has the money to take trips to see these animals in their habitat.

I've always supported SeaWorld and continue to despite what happened. SeaWorld was the place that started it all for me. I can tell you so much about that place from things I've seen and experienced.. Trust me if SeaWorld wanted a mermaid, id be more than happy to provide my services. And sure I've researched both sides, been on whale watches, seen those documentaries and it doesn't change my opinion of them. I applaud them for taking the initiative to provide a better living space for their animals knowing its time to upgrade as standards for animals care has changed in the past decades. But again that's my opinion and choice. I respect those who feel different about it.

(sorry about the long post.)

[Mermaid Kassandra]

Before I was a mermaid I was a Marine Mammal Educator/ assistant in animal care and training (and still work in marine animal rescue) . So you pretty much know where I stand here. Our aquarium worked and continues to work alongside researchers and scientists besides working on breeding programs for endangered species, We worked on self awareness tests, echolocation and hearing, and so much more.

Our aquarium was able to successfully breed fish which are considered now extinct in the wild (I believe they were in process of working on a species reintroduction with the fish before I became ill), they helped start programs to protect coral reefs and sea life, they work alongside other aquariums when it comes to animal care and rescue. They work with many non profit organizations all around the world and share information among other things. Aquariums are important and I can explain why. Aquariums give kids a chance to see so many things in one place and at one time (not many people can say they saw a dolphin, a polar bear and a shark all in one place and in one day), and also teach newer generations about what's important about our oceans and what can be done to help save animals and their habitats. I remember teaching a group of 20 kids about our dolphins and by the end of it all alot of them wanted to start a clean ocean type of program in their school. To a kid there's nothing like seeing an animal up close and watching them become mesmerized by it, and use the animal ambassador in front of them to teach them about not only the animal, but the situation of the ecosystem the animal's wild counterparts face. Not everyone has access to an ocean, not everyone can dive or take a boat etc., not everyone especially at this time has the money to take trips to see these animals in their habitat.

I've always supported SeaWorld and continue to despite what happened. SeaWorld was the place that started it all for me. I can tell you so much about that place from things I've seen and experienced.. Trust me if SeaWorld wanted a mermaid, id be more than happy to provide my services. And sure I've researched both sides, been on whale watches, seen those documentaries and it doesn't change my opinion of them. I applaud them for taking the initiative to provide a better living space for their animals knowing its time to upgrade as standards for animals care has changed in the past decades. But again that's my opinion and choice. I respect those who feel different about it.

(sorry about the long post.)

Sorry?

Thank you for your long post!
This really makes a difference, you always find opinions on how many bad things humans do that is almost impossible to hear another voice!


Again really thank you very much indeed for sharing your opinion and experience!


Is there someone that thinks it in a different way?
I really would really appreciate to hear a clear explanation of why not having aquariums and other structures like that.

Thank you again guys!

[SeaGlass Siren]

It entirely depends on the type of aquarium and the species they house.

If the provided habitat is a good substitute for the natural one, it's ok in my book.
That is easier with smaller species, of course.

Large species or any which need a lot of room (more than provided) should not be held.
This should not only apply to aquariums and zoos, but also to farms and private owners!
I've finished reading everything here and I'm Reposting this. Basically what I wanted to say.

i really don't think housing huge marine animals is ok.
ive visited the Ripleys aquarium twice here in Toronto with my parents. I'll tell you what that was like.
the sting rays and mantas and sharks looked marvelous on the first day it opened. On my second most recent visit it looks like some are experiencing fin rot and look extremely bored. Most will just sleep or swim in circles.

[SeaGlass Siren]

With that said they do have a lot of huge tanks for coral, anemones, molluscs, starfish, jellyfish, and other small species of fish. The fish look hella bored. I guess smaller fish also want to roam a huge ocean. The ones in smaller tanks were not pleased. The tropical fish in the largest tanks looked quite content.
there was also octopus and crustaceans. Octopus also looked bored AF and angry during both my visits.

[AniaR]

I am OK with aquariums as you describe them so long as they create high quality environments for their creatures. Unlike seaworld, aquariums actually do a huge amount of research, education, and even rescue work

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

[Sherielle]

I was wondering about this topic as I visited the Texas State Aquarium this past August. They have two dolphins in a largish tank. They also have a rather large sea turtle rehabilitation program where they get them better then release them back to the ocean. And if the turtle can't be released due to extensive injuries, they take care of them. I enjoyed our visit, but I was hesitant of the dolphins.

[SeaGlass Siren]

Husband made a huge mistake visiting the Vancouver aquarium without telling me until after when he discovered they housed belugas and made them do tricks. He left 2 minutes into the show because he heard my voice scolding him.
I scolded him some more when he came back.

[MermaidSandie]

I think aquariums are a great way for people to educate themselves about the ocean, as long as there are high quality environments. I think a good habitat is better all around; the animals are happier and healthier and they are less bored which appears entertaining for the humans who go see them.

I'm not sure I've ever seen "bored/boring" animals at the Long Beach Aquarium, although the shark enclosure looks kinda small. It's a great aquarium!

[Echidna]

The fish look hella bored. I guess smaller fish also want to roam a huge ocean

oh yes.
Swarm fish and migrating fish wil need loads of space no matter their size.


And I don't think the "kids need to see something firsthand to learn how to care about it"-argument holds water.

Most kids love mermaids, unicorns and dragons, and they definitely never saw one in person (present day mermaid performers notwithstanding).
So no, you don't need to imprison and mistreat an animal just so the kids will learn how to take an interest in them
(maybe rethink your education methods?).
^^This pertains more to SeaPrison than to aquariums.

But honestly I think in the modern day with internet and great documentation readily available everywhere, the purpose/main focus of aquariums, zoos and parks should be providing a safe haven for endangered animals, not entertainment.

[SeaGlass Siren]

most aquariums are for gawking though. even though there are infosheets and infographics and interactive activities there for kids to do that don't involve touch tanks, let's be honest here... who ever pays attention to them? ripley's have them but they also have 3 touch tanks. one for sand sharks, one for horseshoe crabs, and one for mantas (that one though they are in a huge tank and it's connected to a shallow area for them to swim up to so they can leave whenever they want and come up whenever they want). no one ever goes read the infographics to learn something.

[Echidna]

Yea, I didn't mean info sheets and diagrams (boring for kids) so much as shows on TV where you can see and watch the animals just as well (if not better, as they are filmed in their natural habitat).

Zoos, and to a part circuses, are part of that world before globalisation, TV and internet happened.
People hardly ever travelled back then, so the only chance to see an exotic animal was a faire.
There also weren't many books about them, so all was new and sensational in those old times.

But nowadays?
With entertainment, infotainment, and information flooding everyone nonstop from all directions?
Please.
If someone, no matter if kid or adult, takes an interest in something, they can look it up in seconds, learn about them, watch it on youtube, order books to learn even more about it.

And if they find they are really into it, they can take a trip to the natural habitat and do a diving course (all just examples).
The original concept of zoos and other showstuffs is outdated, and I doubt the value of people gawking at animals through a glasspane (as opposed to on a TV screen ) is that much more valuable than the ethical and natural treatment of a creature.

[SeaGlass Siren]

^power of the internet. agreed.

[Mermaid Kassandra]

Yea, I didn't mean info sheets and diagrams (boring for kids) so much as shows on TV where you can see and watch the animals just as well (if not better, as they are filmed in their natural habitat).

Zoos, and to a part circuses, are part of that world before globalisation, TV and internet happened.
People hardly ever travelled back then, so the only chance to see an exotic animal was a faire.
There also weren't many books about them, so all was new and sensational in those old times.

But nowadays?
With entertainment, infotainment, and information flooding everyone nonstop from all directions?
Please.
If someone, no matter if kid or adult, takes an interest in something, they can look it up in seconds, learn about them, watch it on youtube, order books to learn even more about it.

And if they find they are really into it, they can take a trip to the natural habitat and do a diving course (all just examples).
The original concept of zoos and other showstuffs is outdated, and I doubt the value of people gawking at animals through a glasspane (as opposed to on a TV screen ) is that much more valuable than the ethical and natural treatment of a creature.


I really feel your point of view!

I think that seeing the animals in their natural habitat is something magical!

But a video or a book doesn't give you the same feeling of seeing them in person and as I learnt here from others opinions and experiences lots of things we know about marine life.


Would it be ok if we try to make the bad aspects minimal?

I mean we are the "new generation" we can do something to make things better?

Anyway thank you guys I love you hear your opinions!

[Theobromine]

Ok, I can see there are still a LOT of misconceptions about aquariums getting tossed around. I'm going to dispel as many of them as I can. I have degrees in biology and zoology and years of experience working in zoos and aquariums, as well as many friends and acquaintances who do, and I can tell you 100% that aquariums are VERY important tools for education and conservation. That is the primary mission of modern aquariums, they are NOT all about entertainment. That is a very outdated ideal and not something anyone in the zoo or aquarium field would support in this day and age, I can guarantee you.

First of all, for those who worry about the welfare of animals in aquariums, don't. Aquarium animals don't have to worry about predators, pollution, boat strikes, fishing/poaching, entanglement in ocean trash, starvation, stress and disease due to rising ocean temperatures, and many other dangers. They have an entire veterinary staff (normally on-site and/or on-call 24/7) specifically to cater to all their health and medical needs. They are fed the most complete and nutritious diets available, including specific vitamin supplements. Their health and wellbeing is monitored constantly by a staff of highly trained professionals. Their habitats are always being reviewed, improved, and expanded as much as possible to provide the healthiest and most natural environments available (and the technology for this has improved exponentially since the early days, and it continues to improve).

Animals are not "forced to perform" tricks. It is true that many animals are trained to do certain behaviors, but they are trained using positive reinforcement where they are rewarded with treats if they do the behavior, but NOT punished if they don't. These behaviors actually improve safety for both the animals and the people; most of them are specifically trained to improve ease of veterinary exams and procedures. For example, instead of forcing or restraining a seal or sea lion into a certain position to do a blood draw or give a vaccine or just do a health check, you simply ask it to do what you need (roll over, raise a flipper, etc.). Another important point is that these behaviors and interactions provide mental and physical stimulation and are therefore a positive experience for the animal. It works as a form of enrichment (which is provided in a variety of ways to all the animals to keep them stimulated). Yes, in the case of cetaceans and pinnipeds these behaviors are often worked into shows for the public, but the animals are not being exploited or harmed, and these shows are specifically used as an educational tool. Also, please keep in mind that if you're looking into a tank at an aquarium and thinking "this octopus looks bored AF" you are projecting a human emotion onto an invertebrate. That's an excessive amount of anthropomorphization (and I'm a huge animal lover myself).

People who work in aquariums are not grunt workers. Jobs in this field are HUGELY competitive and it is very common to be one applicant among hundreds, I can tell you this from my own personal experience as well as that of many friends and acquaintances. And these jobs don't even pay very well, nowhere near as well as they should, I can assure you. People don't go into the aquarium field for the money, they do it because they love it. Aquariums are staffed by highly trained, educated, and experienced aquarists who are deeply passionate about ocean conservation and education.

Aquariums benefit conservation both directly and indirectly. Directly, because there is a lot of marine biology and conservation-oriented research being performed at most of these institutions. There is so much that goes on behind the scenes that most casual visitors don't even see. Studies are conducted on breeding endangered species, for example, or ways to eradicate diseases (sea star wasting syndrome, coral black band disease, just to name a couple). Also, many aquariums organize research trips, beach cleanups, and animal census counts (such as the annual giant Pacific octopus census near where I live). It's not just trained scientists either; aquariums encourage citizen science and provide the tools and training to carry such things out.

Indirect conservation benefits are brought about by the education provided by aquariums. Each institution has an entire education department dedicated to conducting programs for both children and adults to learn more about the oceans and the animals that live there. By providing accurate scientific information as well as face-to-face encounters and hands-on experiences, aquariums get people excited about the oceans and therefore get them to care. Many, many young people are fascinated and inspired by being able to get up close and personal with live sea creatures that they would never otherwise encounter, so these resources help to create new generations of ocean scientists.

The argument that the same educational benefits can be provided by TV shows and the internet is one I encounter a lot, and unfortunately it is a very uninformed and idealistic viewpoint. I'll break it down:

First of all, have any of you even been paying attention to what's happening to the environment lately? Rising sea temperatures, ocean acidification, plastic pollution, sewage and chemical spills, vast drifting garbage islands, ghost fishing nets, overfishing, poaching, shark finning, seafloor dredging, boat and propeller strikes, navy sonar testing, oil drilling, and probably countless other factors I'm not even thinking of at the moment are ALL threatening the health of the oceans and the very existence of all marine species. These are HUGE problems that, tragically, are not going to just disappear any time soon (if ever). So many habitats are being destroyed and so many species are becoming endangered and even going extinct under our very noses, and if this trend continues then pretty soon there won't even BE wild sea creatures to make documentaries ABOUT. For many animals, aquariums are actually safe havens, or even last bastions for critically endangered species. Zoos and aquariums have a proven track record of actually preventing extinctions of quite a few different species, and the potential to save many more from extinction. Species Survival Plans carried out by accredited aquariums all over the US and the world implement breeding strategies for endangered species, focusing on maintaining genetic diversity and giving the species the best possible chance of survival.

Additionally, many aquariums (as others have mentioned) rescue and rehabilitate sick or injured marine life. Cetaceans, seals and sea lions, sea turtles, and manatees and dugongs ALL benefit from these rescue programs. I used to volunteer in the turtle hospital at the aquarium in Queensland and I've seen many turtles that were rescued that would otherwise have died. All of them were sickened or injured by human-induced causes such as boat strikes (damaged shells requiring repair), ingesting plastic bags (these cause intestinal blockages which cause floating syndrome and starvation), ingesting cigarette butts, trash entanglement, and injuries from fish hooks. Almost all of these turtles were eventually able to recover from severe injuries/illness that they would not have survived in the wild, thanks to the care of the aquarists and veterinarians at the turtle hospital. Without facilities that are adequately equipped and staffed to handle marine animals, a huge amount of sick or injured or injured wildlife would actually be condemned to death because there would not BE anywhere to treat them and nurse them back to health. In fact, there HAVE been instances of injured dolphins having to be euthanized by wildlife officials because of local laws that had banned keeping any cetaceans in captivity and therefore ruled out any aquariums being able to care for them. Let that sink in for a minute.

Another point about educational media....have you guys SEEN what passes for "educational" TV programming these days? Most TV shows nowadays are more about sensationalism, entertainment, and ratings than actually presenting facts. Think about Shark Week, which has falsified SO many documentaries that they actually interview scientists with leading questions, then completely rearrange the material to make it look like the scientists are studying zombie sharks. All of which is fiction presented as fact, all for the sake of entertainment. And the internet is no better. People go around spewing misinformation like facts and most people don't even question it. Anyone can write anything on the internet, unlike in aquariums where staff scientists and educational professionals are devoted to presenting accurate information based on actual research.

Honestly, I am sick to death of armchair activists and self-righteous people who vilify aquariums without even bothering to be fully informed. It doesn't help the cause you think you're supporting, it actually does the opposite and it denigrates all the work that aquarists and scientists devote their entire LIVES to. If you REALLY care about animals, and about the ocean, you should be SUPPORTING aquariums. The more money they receive from ticket sales and memberships, the better care their animals receive and the better their exhibits will be. If you really want to make a difference, don't spread misinformation, DO speak out against the real dangers to the ocean, such as oil drilling, fossil fuels, navy sonar testing, rampant overuse of plastics, seafloor dredging, shark finning, shark culls, and mass slaughter of wild cetaceans (such as what is happening not only with dolphins in Taiji but also with pilot whales in the Faeroe Islands). Knowledge is power and we CAN make a difference, but we have to focus on the right issues, and destroying organizations that provide such important education and conservation functions is not one of them.

[saborigakusei]

I'm not AT ALL educated on this topic, so please forgive my two cents haha. Just wanted to ask a question based on personal experience.

I agree with Mermaid Kassandra that new and better systems can be put in place to ensure that creatures held in aquariums and the like aren't mistreated. While I do see how they could be viewed as superfluous given the current level of technology, I'm not sure that getting rid of them all together would be the best solution. I think that certain species that are bred in captivity to repopulate in a safe and controlled environment, or rescued and nursed back to health, could benefit from aquariums and if the focus is on environmental protection and education, and not on money and tourism. Again, just my uneducated opinion. :)

My concern is with the concept of more people seeing aquatic creatures in their natural habitat.

I went to Mexico over the summer and made the mistake of booking a whale shark tour (because as a mermaid of course I was beyond thrilled so have a chance to swim with them). The company we went with seemed to be a bit more conscientious than most, and refused to let us wear sunscreen because it gets in the water and can clog the whale shark's feeding filters, etc. They also had a limit on how many people could get in to the water, and where and how far down you can swim, so as not to disturb the sharks or scare them or make them uncomfortable.

But when we got to the feeding area, there were already about 6 or 7 other boats that were all just unloading people into the water. Several tried to swim right up to the whale sharks when we saw them, which always scared them and caused them to dive back down away from the surface.

I felt horrible about it and still do. Those tours happen every day, and I feel it just takes advantage of the whale sharks and interrupts their feeding. So my concern is that increased traffic into certain species' natural habitats will stress them out, lead to unintentional pollution, etc. Because it's not just the people who care about the animals who take these tours. A lot of people are just rich enough to afford it and curious, or just want to say they've done it. I feel like an aquarium, IF it treats its creatures well, is a considerably better alternative to that.

wow that was unintentionally long. xD

Any thoughts?

[saborigakusei]

Theobromine: I posted mine before reading yours haha. Thanks so much for the information! :)

[Theobromine]

Saborigakusei, you're welcome! I hope my post answered some of your questions.

As for your whale shark tour experience, I agree that it is a huge issue. Wildlife tourism is great in theory, but in many cases it's quite bad in practice. Some countries have a lot of laws and regulations regarding whale-watching tours and such; boats have to stay a certain distance from wildlife, have to cut their engines if approaching or approached by wildlife, only allowed a certain number of people/boats per day, etc. But many many places in the world have few to no regulations, unfortunately, and no education regarding the proper treatment of wildlife. That results in a lot of wildlife getting harassed, and stress leads to illness among other issues. It's very sad. I myself once made the mistake of going on a dolphin-watching tour in Panama, and there was a number of speedboats including our own that zoomed around the dolphin pod making loud noises, heading them off in different directions, and just generally disrupting their normal behavior. I was disgusted. So, following my previous post, in a lot of cases you are MORE likely to see natural, normal behavior in an aquarium setting, where aquarists spend all their time maintaining perfect water quality and peaceful environments. And nowadays we DO have the technology to perfectly replicate natural environments and habitats, all while providing a home that is free of all the human-caused dangers I've described. In fact, something most people don't know is that even good documentaries often have footage that is filmed in aquariums! Not only are aquariums usually MUCH more accessible and easier to film in, they're able to provide good enough environments that the animals DO perform their natural behaviors.

One other thing I forgot to mention in my first post is that some rescued and rehabilitated animals end up being unreleasable. This is usually due to injuries such as maimed or lost limbs or eyes that would make them susceptible to predation and unable to catch their own food, which would make them unable to survive in the wild. Aquariums provide safe homes for these animals where they are cared for and provided special accommodations such as being hand-fed or target-fed so they don't starve. These animals are able to live out long happy lives rather than starving to death or getting killed off. Without aquariums these animals would have zero chance of survival.

[saborigakusei]

Theobromine: You definitely eased a lot of my concerns, and it's great for me to begin to build a base knowledge of these issues. I also really appreciate you touching on wildlife tourism. I'd never thought about it before that experience, and I'm sure others haven't either. Thanks again!

[Echidna]

It's true that humans have made life in the wild very difficult and exterminate entire species every single day.

That's not an argument for catching wild animals and keeping them for amusement, unless it is indeed done for conversation.
I'm not getting into the trick-discussion here, especially not with someone who is employing SeaPrison lingo and SeaPrison propaganda
"it's not a trick, it's a behaviour"- you can call it a banana, doesn't make it a banana dudes.

"Animals live far longer in capivity than in the wild"- often a lie that has been exposed a long while ago
"They don't do the behaviour because they have to, but because they really want to!!"

One has to be quite gullible to buy that.

Anyway.
Life in the wild today is hard for animals, and it's humanity's fault entirely.
One should make up for that with efforts to make life in the wild easier again, not imprison what remains and call it a day.

[Theobromine]

Echidna. Wow, how do I put this politely....you CLEARLY do not have the knowledge, education, or experience to back up your arguments. I have seen you time and time again spout off all sorts of unsupported claims and opinions, none of which the research actually backs up, and you've also demonstrated that you're not capable of doing unbiased research. And you do so in a very snooty and self-righteous manner. Unless you are ACTUALLY an expert in the field, please do not act like you are an expert.

I have a master's degree in zoology, research experience, and practical experience working in multiple zoos and aquariums as well as discussing these issues with experts in the field. Do you have this experience? Based on everything I've ever heard you say I'm going to make an educated guess that you do not. So again, please stop contradicting people who actually know what they are talking about. I am very serious about promoting knowledge and debunking false information, but unfortunately you seem very resistant to learning the correct information. It sounds like you've been listening to a lot of propaganda and you're repeating it without actually doing any research. And by "research", I don't mean "I read it on some animal activism websites so it must be true". That is called bias and it has no place in a rational discussion. Please refer to this handy chart of biases: http://static.businessinsider.com/image/55ddd6f7bd86ef1e008b6051/image.jpg

In case you didn't read or comprehend my first post very well, I am NOT making any arguments for catching animals from the wild for the purpose of amusement. That is just stupid, please do not twist my words around. I specifically stated that modern aquariums are NOT entertainment-focused, they are conservation focused. How much more simply do I need to spell that out?

I use the word "behaviors" because that is the technical term for it, it is not lingo or propaganda (unless you think ALL technical or scientific terminology is lingo and propaganda, which it's not). Also, I'm stating that animals do behaviors because they choose to and not because they are forced because THAT IS HOW POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT TRAINING WORKS. The animals are never forced. What would be the point of that? Do you honestly think that people who devote their careers to animal care and education are that sadistic? Are you really that dense?

Animals living long lives in captivity isn't a "lie that has been exposed long ago", where the hell are you even coming up with this BS? I'm not making a blanket statement that 100% of all animals live longer in captivity than in the wild; that would be a difficult statement to back up as many marine species have such cryptic life histories that no one is exactly sure how long they actually DO live in the wild. But I CAN tell you for sure that in many cases animals DO live longer in captivity, SPECIFICALLY because they do not have to evade predators, compete for food, or contend with crippling conditions. The first aquarium I worked at had a California moray eel that had been living at the aquarium for 20 years, and it was an adult when it arrived, so it was at LEAST 20 years old, longer than that species was known to live in the wild. This eel was also blind and had to be hand-fed because he couldn't find his own food. Obviously, if he had been out in the wild he would have either starved or become food for someone else. So, yes, I can say with 100% certainty that in MANY cases, animals will live longer in captivity than in the wild.

I devote pretty much my entire existence to promoting conservation and protecting animals and their habitats. I constantly go out of my way to try to educate people about these very issues, but you in particular seem very resistant to actually learning anything worthwhile. You seem far more concerned with acting smug and trying to argue AGAINST facts and common sense than you are with actually being correct. Get over yourself, I've had it with you. And stop getting in the way of people who are actually trying to spread some knowledge.

To everyone else, sorry if I come across as harsh, but I've spent my entire life having to deal with people who prefer to keep their own uninformed opinions about things I've spent my entire life studying. It's not just irritating, it's actually dangerous to keep promoting so much misinformation. Hysterical animal-rights activists who have zero background in biology or conservation always seem to be the most vocal, and most of the things they shriekingly promote are actually HARMFUL. People trying to abolish aquariums because they think all captivity is just "wrong"? Well good job because by condemning aquariums you're CONDEMNING ANIMALS TO DEATH. That is not my opinion. That is a well-substantiated fact which I covered pretty thoroughly in my first post. If you want to be so pigheaded as to completely ignore facts just because they don't support your position (rather than behaving like an intelligent rational human being and revising your opinions based on new facts that you learn) then there is no help for you.

[Mermaid Mystery]

Theobromine, you just said everything I've ever wanted to say in the nicest way possible. Seriously, everybody knows I have a hard time keeping my cool. I applaud you.

The only aquarium I've ever really experienced is the Monterey Bay Aquarium so I don't know what others are like

[SeaGlass Siren]

Ripleys was decent. I just don't like the interactive petting pools. That's unecessary. The mantas looked pretty ok. Sharks did not look ok.

[Dancing Fish]

It's true that humans have made life in the wild very difficult and exterminate entire species every single day.

That's not an argument for catching wild animals and keeping them for amusement, unless it is indeed done for conversation.
I'm not getting into the trick-discussion here, especially not with someone who is employing SeaPrison lingo and SeaPrison propaganda
"it's not a trick, it's a behaviour"- you can call it a banana, doesn't make it a banana dudes.

"Animals live far longer in capivity than in the wild"- often a lie that has been exposed a long while ago
"They don't do the behaviour because they have to, but because they really want to!!"

One has to be quite gullible to buy that.

Anyway.
Life in the wild today is hard for animals, and it's humanity's fault entirely.
One should make up for that with efforts to make life in the wild easier again, not imprison what remains and call it a day.

That was pretty dismissive and condescending. This is her job and clearly is her passion, and it's also clear that she has put a lot of thought into her position. Her position is that her work does help with "making life in the wild easier again," and she did a nice job articulating how. To reduce her words to "propaganda" is just rude.

This is a great topic, Mermaid Kassandra! But definitely a hot topic. I'm a bit concerned about the larger mammals myself. I haven't made up my mind about how I feel about whales and dolphins in captivity yet, given their intelligence. I've seen some disturbing behaviors in local zoo animals, too, which makes me question how humane it is to keep animals that clearly need a lot of space in enclosures that are so confining. But there may come a time (probably will come a time sadly) when all of the knowledge we've gained from the study of captive animals becomes key to saving their species from extinction. And there really is nothing like a closeup encounter with these animals to light a fire in a kid's mind and inspire a career in science. :) Watching animals on TV is educational, but it's kinda like watching mermaids on Youtube...no comparison to actually swimming in a tail!

[saborigakusei]

I've always had an issue with petting pools too. You never know what kind of lotions, germs, whatever are on people's hands. And little kids could grab, scratch or hit an animal without meaning to. There really doesn't seem to be any benefit to it as far as the animal's health, happiness and well-being is concerned. It seems to be just a gimmick to draw bigger crowds and make more money.

...that said, I probably enjoyed getting to pet mantas a bit too much when I was younger. They're my favorites. :$

[Theobromine]

Mermaidofthelabyrinth, I appreciate that, thank you. Honestly, I despise getting involved in drama and I normally stay away from it, but this was one instance where I definitely couldn't keep my cool. Uninformed but receptive to information is one thing, willful ignorance is another. I absolutely cannot stand anti-science rhetoric and I've seen Echidna spread enough of it in enough threads that it was finally time to call her out on it once and for all. Not only is she anti-science and resistant to being informed or educated, she is constantly rude and condescending to anyone who disagrees with her. I know for a fact it's not just me. The last thing I would want is for some innocent person who's just looking for more information on this top to read through this thread, see her statements, and believe they're factual. They're not, and I've never seen her be able to actually back any of her statements with facts.

SeaGlass, I understand your concerns about the health and safety of the animals, believe me. I know some aquariums have removed their touch pools out of concern for animal safety, but those that still have them always have a staff member on hand to not only educate people and answer questions, but also to prevent anyone from harming the animals. The best thing anyone can do about this topic is keep an open mind and learn everything they can.

I CAN assure everyone that people who work in aquariums care VERY much about the animals housed there and are very protective of them. Why would anyone who didn't care about animal care, education, and conservation work in such a high-stakes, high-stress environment where they are constantly being questioned and even harrassed by ignorant people? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

[SeaGlass Siren]

I don't pet the mantas unless I've washed my hands and they come up to me when my hand is in the water. Mantas are as far as I'll go

[Theobromine]

Dancing Fish, I just saw your reply. I definitely agree with your second paragraph. I am also a bit on the fence about cetaceans in captivity, personally I am keeping an open mind and considering both sides of the issue (and I do know a lot of people who work with marine mammals). I don't support taking cetaceans out of the wild, I DO strongly advocate protecting them in the wild but I also have to point out that we're not going to be able to resolve any of the issues endangering them anytime soon. Seriously, we can't even pass legislation to prevent school shootings in the US, who would be naive enough to believe we can just suddenly enact global protection for cetaceans? Also, in the case of marine mammals that have been injured and would not survive in the wild, I think it's fantastic that we have facilities where we can care for them and keep them safe.

[SeaGlass Siren]

Mermaidofthelabyrinth, I appreciate that, thank you. Honestly, I despise getting involved in drama and I normally stay away from it, but this was one instance where I definitely couldn't keep my cool. Uninformed but receptive to information is one thing, willful ignorance is another. I absolutely cannot stand anti-science rhetoric and I've seen Echidna spread enough of it in enough threads that it was finally time to call her out on it once and for all. Not only is she anti-science and resistant to being informed or educated, she is constantly rude and condescending to anyone who disagrees with her. I know for a fact it's not just me. The last thing I would want is for some innocent person who's just looking for more information on this top to read through this thread, see her statements, and believe they're factual. They're not, and I've never seen her be able to actually back any of her statements with facts.

SeaGlass, I understand your concerns about the health and safety of the animals, believe me. I know some aquariums have removed their touch pools out of concern for animal safety, but those that still have them always have a staff member on hand to not only educate people and answer questions, but also to prevent anyone from harming the animals. The best thing anyone can do about this topic is keep an open mind and learn everything they can.

I CAN assure everyone that people who work in aquariums care VERY much about the animals housed there and are very protective of them. Why would anyone who didn't care about animal care, education, and conservation work in such a high-stakes, high-stress environment where they are constantly being questioned and even harrassed by ignorant people? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

I appreciate how calm you are and I get where you are coming from. I've read both sides of the argument but I tend to lean towards against keeping huge animals in tanks. But I do agree sometimes human intervention is needed because there is always some special case.

in the case of the OPs question though my response remains the same.

[Theobromine]

There was one more point I forgot to address in my first comment. I think someone said a while back that even small fishes like to have the whole ocean to swim in? Well, that's not really true. Most small fishes have pretty small territories and are confined to a particular type of habitat. You don't see all different species of fishes flitting all across the ocean. In particular, many small reef fishes spend their entire lives in a single reef and are really only concerned with defending their territories, evading predators, and finding food and mates. In fact, those concerns apply to pretty much all fish species. You know those large pelagic fishes such as tuna, billfishes, and sharks? Yes they cover vast distances in the open ocean, but it's because they need to range far and wide to search for food. They're not just doing it for fun. The open ocean is relatively devoid of food items so the large pelagic predators need to cover such large distances just to hunt. That's not an issue for fishes in aquariums, which are fed a sufficient and nutritionally complete diet. Tanks for larger fishes are engineered to provide them enough swimming space, current and filtration to stay healthy, but since they don't need to search for food they don't need anywhere near as much space as they would in the wild. And fishes don't swim around for fun, that's an unnecessary energy expenditure and it's not in their nature to waste energy (which you can see if you study fish anatomy; their body structures have evolved to maximize efficiency of movement while minimizing the energetic cost).

[Echidna]

ok, I shouldn't bother, because you resorted to name-calling and making a whole lot of personal accusations and assumptions about me, but I will address this:


The last thing I would want is for some innocent person who's just looking for more information on this top to read through this thread, see her statements, and believe they're factual. They're not, and I've never seen her be able to actually back any of her statements with facts.


I didn't make any statements in this thread that aren't common sense.
The parts where I simply stated my opinion, I said it was my opinion.

And I've "backed up stuff with facts" often enough where it was needed.
For the above things, normally it shouldn't be.
"Backing up with facts" on the internet consists usually of linking to webpages, studies and stuff.

You don't do that yourself most of the time, you just wave your degree and assume I have none because I seem to disagree with you.
Way to go :clap:

Now to where I mentioned SeaPrison propaganda, the part I put in "":
Those were direct quotes from a SeaWorld adertising video.

All three statements coincide directly with what you said, which is why it reminded me of it, and why I said I'm not getting into a discussion about it- because their methods and statements have already been exposed as being wrong and harmful.
I suppose you want me to back up that, too?

I did study science, btw.
I also know not all that is sold as science is the end-all, be-all, and that studies more often than not cannot be trusted because the study financiers want to see certain results.
The whole pharmaceutical market is full of false studies, much to the detriment of the people.

Which is why I don't see linking to studies and such is "backing up facts", at all.

Anyway.
I've said my piece already before you came to this thread in my very first post.

[Mermaid Kassandra]

That was pretty dismissive and condescending. This is her job and clearly is her passion, and it's also clear that she has put a lot of thought into her position. Her position is that her work does help with "making life in the wild easier again," and she did a nice job articulating how. To reduce her words to "propaganda" is just rude.

This is a great topic, Mermaid Kassandra! But definitely a hot topic. I'm a bit concerned about the larger mammals myself. I haven't made up my mind about how I feel about whales and dolphins in captivity yet, given their intelligence. I've seen some disturbing behaviors in local zoo animals, too, which makes me question how humane it is to keep animals that clearly need a lot of space in enclosures that are so confining. But there may come a time (probably will come a time sadly) when all of the knowledge we've gained from the study of captive animals becomes key to saving their species from extinction. And there really is nothing like a closeup encounter with these animals to light a fire in a kid's mind and inspire a career in science. :) Watching animals on TV is educational, but it's kinda like watching mermaids on Youtube...no comparison to actually swimming in a tail!



I completely agree with you it makes a lot of difference to experience it on your own!

I felt it on myself.



And yes I knew this was a great and hard topic but seeing what's happening around and what disinformed people say I wanted a place where to discuss this and hear orders opinion.

I don't have a degree in marine biology, even if I wish it could be my second degree in the future if I have the time and the chance, so I hoped to learn from people that really have hands on actual experience because I want to make a real opinion of a topic that I feel is very important.



I'm so glad that you guys decided to share your opinion with me here and with all the community and I feel so lucky that I can read experiences from people that really worked in this field and who can tell us how things really work!



Honestly I share New York mermaid and Theobromine's opinion as I saw so much effort poured in the research in aquariums rather than in amusement parks (such as Sea World and other structures) and I understand perfectly that if you spent you're entire life in this you feel disappointed hearing stubborn people saying that everything that isn't in the wild is bad.

[Ciriun]

So touch tanks really are questionable, huh? :/ That's a bummer. I was so excited about the chance to touch a real, live sturgeon I hadn't even thought at the time about it being potentially harmful to the poor things.

On the cetacean topic, I recently caught a bit of a show where an aquarium rescued a baby whale (pilot whale I think, but I am not sure.) that had pneumonia. They treated it and nursed it back to health, but in the end they decided not to release it on the basis that it had been taken in at such a young age that it wouldn't know what to do if released back into the wild. I don't know how true that reasoning may be, but it was nice to see the efforts they put into caring for it.

[Theobromine]

Echidna, you keep saying you've studied science, but everything you've ever said in this thread (and in other threads) demonstrates your lack of understanding of even basic scientific principles. Not only do you not back up any of your claims, you've never even said anything specific; all of your claims and assertions are extremely vague. Not a single claim of yours has been "common sense". When you say "And I've "backed up stuff with facts" often enough where it was needed. For the above things, normally it shouldn't be. "Backing up with facts" on the internet consists usually of linking to webpages, studies and stuff." That is straight-up incorrect. In fact, it is pure idiocy and I sincerely hope I don't have to explain to anyone ELSE why "normally it shouldn't be necessary" to provide actual facts to support your argument is incorrect. And as I've told you before, Echidna, you can't just link to any old webpage and call it a fact. THAT should be common sense, but you have clearly demonstrated that you have no common sense. Citations should only include primary source materials such as peer-reviewed studies, people. I've already written a long post in another thread about why this is so important. Echidna, I think you fail at reading comprehension. You have demonstrated many times that you are not only incredibly arrogant but extremely ignorant as well. I feel like I'm wasting my time even talking to you because I can tell you are as resistant to facts and well-constructed arguments as a bag of rocks. And you are always inexcusably rude to everybody who disagrees with you. That doesn't make you edgy, blunt, or straightforward, by the way. It just makes you dumb, and an ass.

33278

As for everything I've stated in previous comments, I can give specific examples, and yes, I CAN provide citations for everything I've stated and I will sit down and do so as soon as I actually have the spare time. I came into this thread to dispel misconceptions and help educate people, and I still aim to do that. Please ask me if you have any questions! Kassandra, thank you for starting this thread, it's too bad that it had to endure some mud-slinging, but I hope I've helped you learn some new things and put your mind at ease a little. My whole mission in life really is to educate people about biology and conservation. I also believe that it's REALLY important for the mermaid community to be involved in conservation and awareness, and to do that, you need to have accurate information! I think everyone here genuinely does love animals and care for the environment. I just want everyone to realize how important it really is to know the facts rather than just making assumptions, because if you just rely on assumptions (about an animal's behavior, anatomy, or proper environment) then it can lead you to make the WRONG decisions about how to deal with an issue. Even if you mean well, if you don't fully understand the science behind one of these issues, it could lead to, for example, an animal being released into the wild in the incorrect environment that proves harmful to it, or into an area where it would be in danger from poachers or pollution or deforestation, or even an area where IT could pose a danger to OTHER species (through predation, competition for resources, or interbreeding). I hope everyone understands why fact-based decisions are so critical. And as Dancing Fish stated above, it may be that the understanding we gain from studies we do on captive animals will be the key to saving them.

[AniaR]

Studies show in person experience is Paramount to fostering empathy. In land locked places that's what an aquarium provides. It is hard to get anyone to care about an ocean they never see

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

[AniaR]

Ok, I can see there are still a LOT of misconceptions about aquariums getting tossed around. I'm going to dispel as many of them as I can. I have degrees in biology and zoology and years of experience working in zoos and aquariums, as well as many friends and acquaintances who do, and I can tell you 100% that aquariums are VERY important tools for education and conservation. That is the primary mission of modern aquariums, they are NOT all about entertainment. That is a very outdated ideal and not something anyone in the zoo or aquarium field would support in this day and age, I can guarantee you.

First of all, for those who worry about the welfare of animals in aquariums, don't. Aquarium animals don't have to worry about predators, pollution, boat strikes, fishing/poaching, entanglement in ocean trash, starvation, stress and disease due to rising ocean temperatures, and many other dangers. They have an entire veterinary staff (normally on-site and/or on-call 24/7) specifically to cater to all their health and medical needs. They are fed the most complete and nutritious diets available, including specific vitamin supplements. Their health and wellbeing is monitored constantly by a staff of highly trained professionals. Their habitats are always being reviewed, improved, and expanded as much as possible to provide the healthiest and most natural environments available (and the technology for this has improved exponentially since the early days, and it continues to improve).

Animals are not "forced to perform" tricks. It is true that many animals are trained to do certain behaviors, but they are trained using positive reinforcement where they are rewarded with treats if they do the behavior, but NOT punished if they don't. These behaviors actually improve safety for both the animals and the people; most of them are specifically trained to improve ease of veterinary exams and procedures. For example, instead of forcing or restraining a seal or sea lion into a certain position to do a blood draw or give a vaccine or just do a health check, you simply ask it to do what you need (roll over, raise a flipper, etc.). Another important point is that these behaviors and interactions provide mental and physical stimulation and are therefore a positive experience for the animal. It works as a form of enrichment (which is provided in a variety of ways to all the animals to keep them stimulated). Yes, in the case of cetaceans and pinnipeds these behaviors are often worked into shows for the public, but the animals are not being exploited or harmed, and these shows are specifically used as an educational tool. Also, please keep in mind that if you're looking into a tank at an aquarium and thinking "this octopus looks bored AF" you are projecting a human emotion onto an invertebrate. That's an excessive amount of anthropomorphization (and I'm a huge animal lover myself).

People who work in aquariums are not grunt workers. Jobs in this field are HUGELY competitive and it is very common to be one applicant among hundreds, I can tell you this from my own personal experience as well as that of many friends and acquaintances. And these jobs don't even pay very well, nowhere near as well as they should, I can assure you. People don't go into the aquarium field for the money, they do it because they love it. Aquariums are staffed by highly trained, educated, and experienced aquarists who are deeply passionate about ocean conservation and education.

Aquariums benefit conservation both directly and indirectly. Directly, because there is a lot of marine biology and conservation-oriented research being performed at most of these institutions. There is so much that goes on behind the scenes that most casual visitors don't even see. Studies are conducted on breeding endangered species, for example, or ways to eradicate diseases (sea star wasting syndrome, coral black band disease, just to name a couple). Also, many aquariums organize research trips, beach cleanups, and animal census counts (such as the annual giant Pacific octopus census near where I live). It's not just trained scientists either; aquariums encourage citizen science and provide the tools and training to carry such things out.

Indirect conservation benefits are brought about by the education provided by aquariums. Each institution has an entire education department dedicated to conducting programs for both children and adults to learn more about the oceans and the animals that live there. By providing accurate scientific information as well as face-to-face encounters and hands-on experiences, aquariums get people excited about the oceans and therefore get them to care. Many, many young people are fascinated and inspired by being able to get up close and personal with live sea creatures that they would never otherwise encounter, so these resources help to create new generations of ocean scientists.

The argument that the same educational benefits can be provided by TV shows and the internet is one I encounter a lot, and unfortunately it is a very uninformed and idealistic viewpoint. I'll break it down:

First of all, have any of you even been paying attention to what's happening to the environment lately? Rising sea temperatures, ocean acidification, plastic pollution, sewage and chemical spills, vast drifting garbage islands, ghost fishing nets, overfishing, poaching, shark finning, seafloor dredging, boat and propeller strikes, navy sonar testing, oil drilling, and probably countless other factors I'm not even thinking of at the moment are ALL threatening the health of the oceans and the very existence of all marine species. These are HUGE problems that, tragically, are not going to just disappear any time soon (if ever). So many habitats are being destroyed and so many species are becoming endangered and even going extinct under our very noses, and if this trend continues then pretty soon there won't even BE wild sea creatures to make documentaries ABOUT. For many animals, aquariums are actually safe havens, or even last bastions for critically endangered species. Zoos and aquariums have a proven track record of actually preventing extinctions of quite a few different species, and the potential to save many more from extinction. Species Survival Plans carried out by accredited aquariums all over the US and the world implement breeding strategies for endangered species, focusing on maintaining genetic diversity and giving the species the best possible chance of survival.

Additionally, many aquariums (as others have mentioned) rescue and rehabilitate sick or injured marine life. Cetaceans, seals and sea lions, sea turtles, and manatees and dugongs ALL benefit from these rescue programs. I used to volunteer in the turtle hospital at the aquarium in Queensland and I've seen many turtles that were rescued that would otherwise have died. All of them were sickened or injured by human-induced causes such as boat strikes (damaged shells requiring repair), ingesting plastic bags (these cause intestinal blockages which cause floating syndrome and starvation), ingesting cigarette butts, trash entanglement, and injuries from fish hooks. Almost all of these turtles were eventually able to recover from severe injuries/illness that they would not have survived in the wild, thanks to the care of the aquarists and veterinarians at the turtle hospital. Without facilities that are adequately equipped and staffed to handle marine animals, a huge amount of sick or injured or injured wildlife would actually be condemned to death because there would not BE anywhere to treat them and nurse them back to health. In fact, there HAVE been instances of injured dolphins having to be euthanized by wildlife officials because of local laws that had banned keeping any cetaceans in captivity and therefore ruled out any aquariums being able to care for them. Let that sink in for a minute.

Another point about educational media....have you guys SEEN what passes for "educational" TV programming these days? Most TV shows nowadays are more about sensationalism, entertainment, and ratings than actually presenting facts. Think about Shark Week, which has falsified SO many documentaries that they actually interview scientists with leading questions, then completely rearrange the material to make it look like the scientists are studying zombie sharks. All of which is fiction presented as fact, all for the sake of entertainment. And the internet is no better. People go around spewing misinformation like facts and most people don't even question it. Anyone can write anything on the internet, unlike in aquariums where staff scientists and educational professionals are devoted to presenting accurate information based on actual research.

Honestly, I am sick to death of armchair activists and self-righteous people who vilify aquariums without even bothering to be fully informed. It doesn't help the cause you think you're supporting, it actually does the opposite and it denigrates all the work that aquarists and scientists devote their entire LIVES to. If you REALLY care about animals, and about the ocean, you should be SUPPORTING aquariums. The more money they receive from ticket sales and memberships, the better care their animals receive and the better their exhibits will be. If you really want to make a difference, don't spread misinformation, DO speak out against the real dangers to the ocean, such as oil drilling, fossil fuels, navy sonar testing, rampant overuse of plastics, seafloor dredging, shark finning, shark culls, and mass slaughter of wild cetaceans (such as what is happening not only with dolphins in Taiji but also with pilot whales in the Faeroe Islands). Knowledge is power and we CAN make a difference, but we have to focus on the right issues, and destroying organizations that provide such important education and conservation functions is not one of them.
Preach :) I agree and love everything you said!

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

[AniaR]

I didn't see any insults or personal attacks in that first direct reply. Just pointing out tone and how it comes across. I think Theobromine speaks for a lot of us.

Sometimes on here- and I was guilty of it for years- we try to relate to every post even when we shouldn't. The only aspect I can speak to here is my personal opinion ( as asked, but I must understand it is my Opinion) and my experience as an educator which spans two degrees and professional experience. I can't back up the animal science. But I can certainly back up all the education end of things.

Echinida I think you're a bit like I used to be and can still be sometimes. You overuse mernetwork as a source of social life. And I am not trying to insult you, I am speaking from my own experience doing the same thing.

You post in almost every thread but a huge amount of the time it either doesn't involve you or you have nothing to contribute. I was the same way! ( hence my obnoxious amount of posts) for me I just wanted to know everyone. I wanted to be involved in everything. But like you, people started telling me criticism of how I came across.

I am not perfect but I am working on it. Now that I've stepped out and looked in I see a lot of drama starts from people just peanut- gallery-ing it.

You do come off dismissive of others points. It is OK if you don't agree but it doesn't mean they are wrong. I do find you talk like you're an expert in everything. Which I used to do a lot too.

I think it is good to just take a step back sometimes and question yourself, is it really something I should be involved in, and if so, to what degree?

I think me doing that has helped my image a lot, and made mernetwork a better experience for me.

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

[Mermaid Lorelei]

Well this got dramatic quickly. Not that I'm surprised. It is a bit of a hot topic.

To be blunt, yes, I think aquariums are very important and I will go so far as to say necessary.

I consider aquariums to be bastions; places of last hope for lots of different species. I don't even want to imagine the sheer devastation to our remaining species count if we were to completely do away with these places of safety and knowledge. I'd happily go into precise detail on my thoughts, but like Raina, Theobromine's very neatly covered pretty much everything I would have said (and doubtless worded it better).

[Echidna]

Right.
Sorry folks for derailing this thread further.
I normally wouldn't, and I was prepared not to say anything more, but if I don't, it will probably leave a wrong impression.

First off, thank you Raina for your input.
We two have agreed on things and disagreed on others, but you have the decency to stay polite even when getting personal. Kudos to you.

Now, parts of this thread have not been about the topic, or a discussion of any sort, but just members venting about the way I post and my person in general.
The main complaint seemed to be that I dared post in this thread despite not presenting a master's thesis on everything I say, and lacking qualifications to express my opinion.

Let's look at what the thread starter intended with this thread:

I would like to hear the community thoughts not to start drama or anything similar it's just to share opinions.

So this is what I did.
If someone thinks they are the expert and resents everyone who dares do express an opinion differing from theirs, that's one thing.
It doesn't warrant insults and endless personal attacks.

I realize my first post under Theobromine's comes across as dismissive if one doesn't know I'm quoting SeaWorld, which uses the same arguments as most aquariums do
(I explained that in my next post).

I was enrolled in the University of Kiel, one of the two universities in Germany which offer sea-related courses, where I studied marine biology for 2 years (though it wasn't my main focus).
Students were required to work time in the adjoining aquarium, so excuse me if I don't roll over in awe as soon as someone waves a degree as a matter of proving themselves superior.

I didn't go into huge detail about how I came to my views because I have zero interest in discussing with Theobromine.
In fact, I have had her on ignore for a long time already because (funnily enough) she's one of the most aggressive and rudest posters on MN in my eyes.

I still read her first post thoroughly, and while she makes some good points, I happen to disagree with a few of them.
Hopefully I don't have to explain why I didn't respond to the long, rage-filled postings she made afterward
(Hint: it's NOT because I don't have arguments).

It might have been better to not respond to someone I have on ignore, even if I referred only vaguely to her post- it was obviously interpreted in a different way.
Or maybe not- no idea.
I put her on ignore after she called people disagreeing with her (not me) "arseholes" and other things as a blanket statement.

And this is going to be the last thing I'll ever say about this-
but I don't think this was drama until T. made one out of it.



You post in almost every thread but a huge amount of the time it either doesn't involve you or you have nothing to contribute.

Again, thank you for your insights.
I understand what you want to say, except for this.
I most certainly do NOT post in every thread.

I read only a few threads which sound interesting out of the entire forum.
If you regularly check the "Hottest topics" and "most active posters"-statistics, you know I haven't even been among the top ten posters for about a year or so.

If you think I almost never have anything to contribute, you're welcome to not read any of my posts.

[AniaR]

Again, thank you for your insights.
I understand what you want to say, except for this.
I most certainly do NOT post in every thread.

I read only a few threads which sound interesting out of the entire forum.
If you regularly check the "Hottest topics" and "most active posters"-statistics, you know I haven't even been among the top ten posters for about a year or so.

If you think I almost never have anything to contribute, you're welcome to not read any of my posts.

To clarify, I wasnt saying that as a personal attack against you. I say it because I did it too and I see you doing it. I didn't say *every* I say almost every (AND MAYBE I should clarify to that to almost every "active" thread), and actually I do choose to not read a lot of your posts... along with a lot of threads for that matter ;) But if you look at the community stats you're one of the top frequent posters. (I check the stats a lot to try and self regulate myself so I don't over do it) In the past 2 weeks you've commented in over 15 different threads, (not post count, just threads.) which may not seem like a lot, but a lot of people tend to stick to smaller batches at a time. I am not even trying to criticize you about it, because I do the same thing. I get interested in a lot and go through loads of em. I usually click "what's new" and I used to reply in almost every single one. Now I just reply in a few. I am just letting you know it contributes to how people see you. So if you feel like the impression people are getting from you isn't accurate I think that's one of the reasons, I think not being as vocal about your qualifications may be another since that's come up a few times now, and I find with your tone of voice there's a cultural difference that can sometimes come off wrong way to people.

It's up to you whether or not you decide to change any of those things. I used to feel really defensive when I got these sorts of criticisms. I felt like, who was anyone to tell me how to use this site if I am not breaking rules? I felt like people were DEDICATED to misunderstanding me. But I took a break and just observed for a while. I realize people had some valid points. Did I change everything about myself? Obviously not. ;) we shoudlnt just change because others tell us to, but because we feel it is worthwhile. And do I slip up ? ohhh yup. But I am 100% not the same user on here that I was even 1 year ago, but especially 2 or 3 years ago.

And I would like to say too, I have never found any post from Theobromine previously to this that would make her cast as one of the rudest members of mernetwork. And I don't think others would see her that way either. And she and I have butt heads. But a lot of people do find you rude, there have been passive aggressive posts about it in other threads if you didn't see :/ . I felt like a lot of your tone made me angry so it was part of the reason why i just chose to stay out of a lot of the threads you were in and instead only replied really when you were in one of mine. I try to be unbiased and still support you when I agree with a statement you make, and I see you do that for me too and I appreciate it. SO whether it's tone, transparency, or people just getting a bit worn out from seeing so many of your posts... it's really up to you if you want to change anything or not. I know it well maybe hurt your feelings and make you feel defensive and that isn't my intention... I just feel like you were going to get a post like this from SOMEONE for a while now, because a lot of people have been brewing. So perhaps it's best we all just talk about it and you can decide what it means to you and if you want to do anything about it.

I just really hope you understand I am speaking as someone who has had the same kind of flack from the community, the same kind of posting habits, and who felt defensive about it for a really long time. Even people who I cant stand and disagreed with once made a point that I often elude to things instead of just saying them, which I 100% did and have tried to not do as often anymore because it was causing drama.

[Echidna]

To clarify, I wasnt saying that as a personal attack against you. I know it well maybe hurt your feelings and make you feel defensive and that isn't my intention.

Nah, it's alright.

I have seriously no idea if I post too much and people are sick of seeing my posts.

It's a surprise if anything, because I was rather inactive the last months (I read very few threads and replied even less), and I certainly never made it to the most active posters list (which I often check to see who is active).
I posted more the last days because it's the weekend.
Under the week, I usually don't even read MN anymore because I'm so busy with other stuff.

And like you, I try to be unbiased.
I'll always speak up for someone who I think has made a good statement (or defend them if they're needlessly attacked) regardless of whether I like them or not.

Admittedly I'm often too lazy to explain myself profusely, even when I know people might get the wrong impression.
Especially if it's drama.
If someone starts name-calling, I'm out (and likely to ignore them in the future).


EDIT: Nevermind.

I just found out this whole affair here wasn't about the topic, or what I said, or how I said it.
There's a bunch of peeps in a drama thread I never read, who have been seething and raging about me for some time now.
They've been conspiring and congratulating each other when they managed to cause drama around me.

LOL. Kindergarden much?
I was half expecting them to start discussing their nose-pickings next.

Kassandra, I'm sorry this carp spread to your thread.
I had no idea this was going on- at least it shows me the people I have on my ignorelist are there for very good reasons.

I hope it didn't affect your experience on the site negatively.

[Ciriun]

Echidna, Theobromine, I respect and look up to you both. So I hope this isn't being nosy of me or driving the thread too far off topic.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/32662381/images/1402272921888.jpg

[Theobromine]

I don't plan on wasting any more of my time arguing with Echidna because it's clear she doesn't want to learn anything. I'll provide a little bit of context for one of her statements, however, for people who haven't read previous threads. She says I'm "one of the most aggressive and rudest posters on MN" and I know exactly what she is referring to. There were two previous threads in which she posted her own extremely unscientific opinions (one about vaccines, one about bottled water) and was also very condescending and dismissive toward everyone there who disagreed with her (including both Raina and Iona). I posted some long, detailed comments refuting Echidna's incorrect assertions because I felt it was important for people to have the correct information. I also took the opportunity to present a lesson about some science basics and why science literacy is so important, PRECISELY so that people can be equipped to tell fact from fiction and not just rely on assumptions and biases. In one of those two threads, Raina also linked to this AWESOME article about why not everyone's opinions are correct, which I think is also 100% relevant here: http://www.houstonpress.com/arts/no-it-s-not-your-opinion-you-re-just-wrong-updated-7611752 If anyone is interested in seeing how those discussions went, I am quite happy to link back to both of those threads so you can all see for yourselves and decide who you think was more rude.

In both of those previous instances, I was emphatic and assertive but maintained civil language. I guess Echidna felt that I was rude and aggressive because I pointed out exactly why her assumptions were incorrect. Oh well. I would also like to point out the irony of Echidna's own description of herself in the recent Community Drama thread: "I'm pretty straightforward, which might be too cross for some". All I can say about that is, it seems like she can dish it out but she can't take it. And now I wash my hands of her.

One general statement I’d like to make: I’m not waving my degrees around in any attempt to make myself look better than everyone else, I am simply pointing out that I have a strong background in this exact subject; I’ve devoted many years of my life to study and experience in this area. And yes, I will admit that when someone is so completely dismissive of that, it IS pretty insulting and infuriating. However, my aim here is not to fight with anyone. I want to make it crystal clear that this is not just a matter of two differing opinions; I am presenting well-substantiated facts based on years of education and experience, and the other person is not. You can’t just make up your own facts because you don’t like the real facts. That’s just not how it works.

I do absolutely still plan to compile a list of references and further information on this subject for all those who are interested, I just want to make it the focus of a separate post (perhaps even a separate thread at this point, sorry Kassandra). I’ve also been out all weekend and I just got home and I’m tired and want to go shower :P However, in the meantime, one last thing. Please enjoy this hilarious clip of John Oliver laying down some truth bombs about scientific debates (the video is about climate change, but the same ideas apply to this thread as well). You don’t need people’s opinions on a fact! ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjuGCJJUGsg

[Mermaid Kassandra]

Ok I'm sorry for what happened here and now I feel I'm like the goddess of chaos!



I must thank you all for sharing opinions and years of accomplished knowledge.



I wanted to learn why people say aquariums are a good thing and why not because on the internet there's to much mess about this thing especially after what happened with Sea World and the whole net seems to be filled with angry people saying that captivity is wrong in any way and not exposing in a clear way why.

Now I can happily say that not only I understood why aquariums can benefit not only for the research but also for animals but I also learned a lot of new important thing that made me decide that after completing my first degree I'll take marine biology 😊



But I also feel sorry because I wanted this thread to be a way to express different points of view without arguing but I knew clearly it was going to be hard not arguing.



Anyway I want to thank again all the people who contributed to this thread and helped me learn a lot of thing.



Now I know for what I want to stand and Theobromine I really would appreciate if you would like to share your informations with me about this subject I want to be conscious and informed to help protect what I love 😊



More I want to say thanks to this community because not all the people on this planet can say that they were directly helped by people from all around the world in their personal education 😊



So Echidna, Mermaid Cecelia, Ciriun, Mermaid Jessica Pearl, New York Mermaid, SeaGlass Siren, Raina, Sherielle, Mermaid Sandie, Theobromine, Saborigakusei, Mermaidofthelabyrinth, Dancing Fish and Mermaid Lorelei thank you very much indeed for what you did here in this thread for me now you're all in the list of people I will be thankful for empowering my education and opening my mind.

[AniaR]

Kass, don't feel bad or sorry. You aren't responsible for others actions. I too was wondering a lot of these things!

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

[Mermaid Crystal Shimmer]

Wow, I've leanred so much thanks to this thread! Thanks for clearing up many of the things I was wondering about.

I do have a question still; how do you people feel about mermaids performing in Aquariums? There's a zoo about half an hour drive with a very nice aquarium and I'm thinking about getting my fishy butt over there and try to apply to be able to swim there. I would be the very first mermaid in the Netherlands to do that (if they are interested), but if it's harmful for the fish living there I have to skip the idea.

[Mermaid Kassandra]

Kass, don't feel bad or sorry. You aren't responsible for others actions. I too was wondering a lot of these things!

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk



Thank you Raina 😊

I was feeling bad only because when I decided to ask about aquariums I knew there was going to be drama but I thought that I wanted to know things clearly and I decided to still post it.

I don't like to argue and I imagine that also other people doesn't and it like "I made them argue by putting them in the conditions of doing it" but I swear I hadn't the intention!

[RastaMer]

#RESPECT to Raina for openly discussing your past problems with mernetwork.

I am also curious to know what people think about mermaids swimming in aquariums. I can't imagine it's very harmful for the sea life unless your tail is somehow disrupting the environment. Don't people actually go into to the tanks to feed many of the fish?

[Mermaid Mystery]

Yes, divers are used for feeding in some places and cleaning in most as far as I'm aware. I'm sure it wouldn't be disruptive in bigger tanks, but it probably depends on size.

[Dancing Fish]

Wow, I've leanred so much thanks to this thread! Thanks for clearing up many of the things I was wondering about.

I do have a question still; how do you people feel about mermaids performing in Aquariums? There's a zoo about half an hour drive with a very nice aquarium and I'm thinking about getting my fishy butt over there and try to apply to be able to swim there. I would be the very first mermaid in the Netherlands to do that (if they are interested), but if it's harmful for the fish living there I have to skip the idea.

What a great question! I know I would be terrified of knocking over some really nice coral or something with my tail. I'd also be concerned about a mermaid with a latex tail leaching junk into the water, but maybe that's not really a danger (silicone or fabric should be fine).

Also, isn't it really really COOOLD? It'd certainly take some getting used to!

Unrelated: Mermaid Crystal Shimmer, that is one beautiful tail! :) What a sweet video!

[KayNS]

I'll start by saying that I haven't read all of the posts in this thread. However, I'd like to give my opinion on the matter, as per the OP's request.

I am very divided on the subject of animals in captivity in general, but I'll just talk about aquariums here.

On the one hand, I believe that aquariums are an amazing tool to increase passion and engagament of people with regards to the ocean. Increased ocean literacy is SO vital. We need to make people care as much (or even more!) about the ocean as they do about the rainforest, or space. They need to know that if we lose the oceans, we lose everything. Seeing these creatures close up and in person is SO different than seeing them on TV. It's just more captivating and more "real", especially today when CG is so prevalent and well done. TV can have a sense of "oh, that's not real" to it. And we all know how much misinformation, fear-mongering, and apathy there is on the internet and in meanstream media. I know for myself, going to aquariums greatly increased my desire to go into the marine sciences (I have a BSc in Marine Biology) and also expanded my focus beyond dolphins and made me also interested in other less 'charismatic' creatures. Same with when I volunteered for a Whale Watching company when I was 17. They worked with a conservation group and helped gather scientific information to aid the protection of the severely endangered North Atlantic Right Whale. That sparked my passion for right whales, which I probably otherwise wouldn't have gained. And it did it because I got to see these animals with my own eyes. Heck, a few years ago I got to see Great White Sharks in person when I went cage diving in South Africa. My opinions on sharks changed after seeing them close up, even though I have seen many documentaries etc. and already had somewhat of an appreciation for them. Seeing them in person, looking into their eyes, that increased my passion for their conservation.

Of course, on the other side of the coin are the downfalls of captivity. And I don't mean to make light of this side of things. The fact that we cannot replicated these creatures' natural habitat and the idea of keeping them for our own uses and entertainment. This is where I get morally confused. Where do we draw the line between selfish containment of the creatures and the education and research aspects that help protect them in their natural habitat? I don't have an answer for that.

I agree that it is a very individual thing. Each aquarium should be evaluated on its own to see which side of the line they sit on. I don't think we can lump them all together and either praise or condemn them.

[AniaR]

I swim in an aquarium at Dalhousie but the animals are removed when I go in. Most mers in aquariums have loads of training so they don't disrupt the animals

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

[Theobromine]

Kassandra, DON'T feel bad for starting this thread. If anything, this whole thing highlights the importance of sharing this information! Kudos to you!

As to swimming in aquariums, there was actually a whole thread about that a little while back, and Mermaid Cora from Reef HQ Aquarium in Queensland actually posted a REALLY detailed and insightful comment about it. I'll see if I can find that thread and link it here. For those who don't know, Cora works full time as an aquarist there (we actually went to the same university!) but also performs there as a mermaid, so she has a really good viewpoint of both sides.

KayNS, your point about ocean literacy is right on! Seeing such amazing creatures in real life gives you a feeling of connection that even the most wonderfully filmed documentary can never give you. As for your second point, about the morality of keeping animals in captivity, I actually addressed all of those questions in my first post in this thread :) But I'm also going to expand on those points and provide further information. I completely understand that a lot of people question the morality of captivity. I myself am 100% AGAINST animals being exploited for entertainment and improperly cared for, just to be clear. I'm a bleeding-heart animal lover, trust me. I've also worked in aquarium stores a couple of times and I'm that person who is more likely to tell you NOT to buy the fishes if I don't think your tank is big enough or that you don't know how to take care of them, haha. Believe me, I'm pretty much a crusader for animals being treated as well as possible.

So, I guess because this discussion is finally back on track and continuing in this thread (whew), I will continue to post information here. I'll probably break it up into a few different posts, though, to keep it easier to read and so I don't have to keep putting it off until I have the time to sit down and write one gigantic epic mega-post. Also, if any other biologists and aquarists on here want to weigh in with their experiences or add any information I may have missed, PLEASE do so! I certainly don't pretend that I know all there is to know and I LOVE to learn from other people and hear about their experiences!

Ok, first, I'll provide some background information about how aquariums (and zoos, for that matter) are regulated and accredited. All the statements I've already made about aquariums generally pertain to accredited institutions (non-accredited ones can be hit or miss and you kind of have to take them on a case-by-case basis, they're a little harder to evaluate and you can't make any blanket statements about them). The big regulating organization for zoos and aquariums in the US (and for some other countries) is Association of Zoos and Aquariums (AZA) (https://www.aza.org/). Check out their website, as it provides a TON of information about how this works, but I'll summarize it here and quote a few parts. AZA conducts rigorous inspections and provides accreditation for all zoological institutions that seek AZA member status. As you can see on their Accreditation page (https://www.aza.org/what-is-accreditation/), accreditation is "official recognition and approval of a zoo or aquarium by a group of experts. These experts, called the AZA Accreditation Commission, carefully examine each zoo or aquarium that applies for AZA membership. Only those zoos and aquariums that meet our high standards can become members of AZA." Maintaining AZA accreditation status is also an ongoing process, not just a one-time pass: "AZA accredited zoos and aquariums are constantly evolving and standards are continuously being raised. Each zoo or aquarium must keep up with these changes to remain AZA accredited. And to prove it, they must go through the entire accreditation process every five years. AZA believes that nothing is more important than assuring the highest standards of animal care and our accreditation process does just that!" Aquariums and zoos can definitely lose their accreditation if they fail to remain up to standards. In that case, they'll have to go through a lengthy review process to prove that they're worthy of re-accreditation. There is a list of currently accredited zoos and aquariums (https://www.aza.org/current-accreditation-list/), and you can also look for the AZA logo on an institution's website or at the institution itself.

There are a lot of benefits that zoos and aquariums gain from being accredited. Here is a summary they provide of the benefits for aquariums (https://www.aza.org/Membership/detail.aspx?id=30042). AZA provides professional development training and all sorts of seminars and conferences to promote better animal husbandry and innovation to help zoos and aquariums constantly improve their facilities. For example: "Animal husbandry practices ensure that the physiological, biological, psychological, and social needs of the animals cared for in AZA-accredited zoos and aquariums are addressed. Providing for good animal welfare encompasses both ethical and scientific responsibilities. AZA-accredited institutions have an ethical responsibility to ensure the well-being of the animals in their care. In addition, AZA-accredited institutions have a scientific responsibility to gain a greater understanding of the well-being of the animals in their care by advancing animal welfare science."

There is also a lot of emphasis on field conservation (https://www.aza.org/annual-report-on-conservation-and-science/), reintroduction programs (https://www.aza.org/reintroduction-programs/) (check that page to see examples of species that have been successfully reintroduced into the wild and essentially saved from extinction), sustainability (https://www.aza.org/sustainable-practices/), conservation initiatives (https://www.aza.org/conservation-commitments-and-impacts/) (including ocean conservation and marine mammal conservation), and conservation research (https://www.aza.org/research/). AZA institutions are also allowed to participate in Species Survival Plans (SSPs) (https://www.aza.org/species-survival-plan-program/), which are comprehensive and carefully designed breeding programs, each one focused on a particular endangered species "to ensure the sustainability of a healthy, genetically diverse, and demographically varied AZA population". This actually means cooperation between multiple different zoos or aquariums so that animals can be transfered between them to produce the most beneficial genetic pairings (this prevents a genetic bottleneck, which can be a huge problem with restricted populations and leads to a loss of genetic diversity and therefore a less healthy population or species with a higher incidence of detrimental genetic conditions and higher probability of going extinct).

AZA also works in cooperation with IUCN (International Union for Conservation of Nature) (http://www.iucn.org/), which is another independent organization that assesses how threatened or endangered different species are, and works to find and provide environmental conservation solutions. The IUCN Red List (http://www.iucnredlist.org/amazing-species) is a really useful tool if you want to look up the conservation status of a particular species.

I hope that wasn't too much of an info-dump, but that's just an introduction, really. I'll come back later and post more stuff on other related topics!

[Theobromine]

Haha, and of course literally a second after I posted that, I glanced at Facebook and saw a story the AZA Fb page posted about this loggerhead sea turtle that got lifesaving cataract surgery at South Carolina Aquarium's sea turtle hospital: http://ht.ly/3528LJ

[Mermaid Kassandra]

Kassandra, DON'T feel bad for starting this thread. If anything, this whole thing highlights the importance of sharing this information! Kudos to you!

As to swimming in aquariums, there was actually a whole thread about that a little while back, and Mermaid Cora from Reef HQ Aquarium in Queensland actually posted a REALLY detailed and insightful comment about it. I'll see if I can find that thread and link it here. For those who don't know, Cora works full time as an aquarist there (we actually went to the same university!) but also performs there as a mermaid, so she has a really good viewpoint of both sides.

KayNS, your point about ocean literacy is right on! Seeing such amazing creatures in real life gives you a feeling of connection that even the most wonderfully filmed documentary can never give you. As for your second point, about the morality of keeping animals in captivity, I actually addressed all of those questions in my first post in this thread :) But I'm also going to expand on those points and provide further information. I completely understand that a lot of people question the morality of captivity. I myself am 100% AGAINST animals being exploited for entertainment and improperly cared for, just to be clear. I'm a bleeding-heart animal lover, trust me. I've also worked in aquarium stores a couple of times and I'm that person who is more likely to tell you NOT to buy the fishes if I don't think your tank is big enough or that you don't know how to take care of them, haha. Believe me, I'm pretty much a crusader for animals being treated as well as possible.

So, I guess because this discussion is finally back on track and continuing in this thread (whew), I will continue to post information here. I'll probably break it up into a few different posts, though, to keep it easier to read and so I don't have to keep putting it off until I have the time to sit down and write one gigantic epic mega-post. Also, if any other biologists and aquarists on here want to weigh in with their experiences or add any information I may have missed, PLEASE do so! I certainly don't pretend that I know all there is to know and I LOVE to learn from other people and hear about their experiences!

Ok, first, I'll provide some background information about how aquariums (and zoos, for that matter) are regulated and accredited. All the statements I've already made about aquariums generally pertain to accredited institutions (non-accredited ones can be hit or miss and you kind of have to take them on a case-by-case basis, they're a little harder to evaluate and you can't make any blanket statements about them). The big regulating organization for zoos and aquariums in the US (and for some other countries) is Association of Zoos and Aquariums (AZA) (https://www.aza.org/). Check out their website, as it provides a TON of information about how this works, but I'll summarize it here and quote a few parts. AZA conducts rigorous inspections and provides accreditation for all zoological institutions that seek AZA member status. As you can see on their Accreditation page (https://www.aza.org/what-is-accreditation/), accreditation is "official recognition and approval of a zoo or aquarium by a group of experts. These experts, called the AZA Accreditation Commission, carefully examine each zoo or aquarium that applies for AZA membership. Only those zoos and aquariums that meet our high standards can become members of AZA." Maintaining AZA accreditation status is also an ongoing process, not just a one-time pass: "AZA accredited zoos and aquariums are constantly evolving and standards are continuously being raised. Each zoo or aquarium must keep up with these changes to remain AZA accredited. And to prove it, they must go through the entire accreditation process every five years. AZA believes that nothing is more important than assuring the highest standards of animal care and our accreditation process does just that!" Aquariums and zoos can definitely lose their accreditation if they fail to remain up to standards. In that case, they'll have to go through a lengthy review process to prove that they're worthy of re-accreditation. There is a list of currently accredited zoos and aquariums (https://www.aza.org/current-accreditation-list/), and you can also look for the AZA logo on an institution's website or at the institution itself.

There are a lot of benefits that zoos and aquariums gain from being accredited. Here is a summary they provide of the benefits for aquariums (https://www.aza.org/Membership/detail.aspx?id=30042). AZA provides professional development training and all sorts of seminars and conferences to promote better animal husbandry and innovation to help zoos and aquariums constantly improve their facilities. For example: "Animal husbandry practices ensure that the physiological, biological, psychological, and social needs of the animals cared for in AZA-accredited zoos and aquariums are addressed. Providing for good animal welfare encompasses both ethical and scientific responsibilities. AZA-accredited institutions have an ethical responsibility to ensure the well-being of the animals in their care. In addition, AZA-accredited institutions have a scientific responsibility to gain a greater understanding of the well-being of the animals in their care by advancing animal welfare science."

There is also a lot of emphasis on field conservation (https://www.aza.org/annual-report-on-conservation-and-science/), reintroduction programs (https://www.aza.org/reintroduction-programs/) (check that page to see examples of species that have been successfully reintroduced into the wild and essentially saved from extinction), sustainability (https://www.aza.org/sustainable-practices/), conservation initiatives (https://www.aza.org/conservation-commitments-and-impacts/) (including ocean conservation and marine mammal conservation), and conservation research (https://www.aza.org/research/). AZA institutions are also allowed to participate in Species Survival Plans (SSPs) (https://www.aza.org/species-survival-plan-program/), which are comprehensive and carefully designed breeding programs, each one focused on a particular endangered species "to ensure the sustainability of a healthy, genetically diverse, and demographically varied AZA population". This actually means cooperation between multiple different zoos or aquariums so that animals can be transfered between them to produce the most beneficial genetic pairings (this prevents a genetic bottleneck, which can be a huge problem with restricted populations and leads to a loss of genetic diversity and therefore a less healthy population or species with a higher incidence of detrimental genetic conditions and higher probability of going extinct).

AZA also works in cooperation with IUCN (International Union for Conservation of Nature) (http://www.iucn.org/), which is another independent organization that assesses how threatened or endangered different species are, and works to find and provide environmental conservation solutions. The IUCN Red List (http://www.iucnredlist.org/amazing-species) is a really useful tool if you want to look up the conservation status of a particular species.

I hope that wasn't too much of an info-dump, but that's just an introduction, really. I'll come back later and post more stuff on other related topics!


Thank you so much Theobromine!
I'm so excited to learn as much as possible from you! 😊

[KayNS]

Thanks for all the info, Theobromine. I feel we're on the same page.

[KayNS]

P.S. I do NOT understand why Halifax, Nova Scotia doesn't have an aquarium... but that's a whole other rant, right AniaR?

[Theobromine]

You're welcome, Kassandra and KayNS! I agree, I think we're all on the same side here. That's why I feel it's so important to share this information, because as mermaids, we ALL care very deeply about the state of the oceans and making sure that animals are safe and happy! It's just so important to know not to let our emotions get the better of us to the point where we can't make informed decisions. The more informed we are, the better we can help educate others, and the better everyone can make intelligent decisions that will truly benefit the oceans and the creatures that we love.

[AniaR]

P.S. I do NOT understand why Halifax, Nova Scotia doesn't have an aquarium... but that's a whole other rant, right AniaR?
I plan on building one when I'm rich lol

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

[Mermaid Crystal Shimmer]

As to swimming in aquariums, there was actually a whole thread about that a little while back, and Mermaid Cora from Reef HQ Aquarium in Queensland actually posted a REALLY detailed and insightful comment about it. I'll see if I can find that thread and link it here. For those who don't know, Cora works full time as an aquarist there (we actually went to the same university!) but also performs there as a mermaid, so she has a really good viewpoint of both sides.


Thanks! I'm not a lot online here, so I must have missed it. I want to be informed as much as I can before applying at the aquarium.

[Mermaid Mystery]

I plan on building one when I'm rich lol

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

LMAO it'll be mermaid accredited

[Mermaid Kassandra]

You're welcome, Kassandra and KayNS! I agree, I think we're all on the same side here. That's why I feel it's so important to share this information, because as mermaids, we ALL care very deeply about the state of the oceans and making sure that animals are safe and happy! It's just so important to know not to let our emotions get the better of us to the point where we can't make informed decisions. The more informed we are, the better we can help educate others, and the better everyone can make intelligent decisions that will truly benefit the oceans and the creatures that we love.


I completely agree!

Thanks a lot ❤

[Mermaid Kassandra]

Nah, it's alright.

I have seriously no idea if I post too much and people are sick of seeing my posts.

It's a surprise if anything, because I was rather inactive the last months (I read very few threads and replied even less), and I certainly never made it to the most active posters list (which I often check to see who is active).
I posted more the last days because it's the weekend.
Under the week, I usually don't even read MN anymore because I'm so busy with other stuff.

And like you, I try to be unbiased.
I'll always speak up for someone who I think has made a good statement (or defend them if they're needlessly attacked) regardless of whether I like them or not.

Admittedly I'm often too lazy to explain myself profusely, even when I know people might get the wrong impression.
Especially if it's drama.
If someone starts name-calling, I'm out (and likely to ignore them in the future).


EDIT: Nevermind.

I just found out this whole affair here wasn't about the topic, or what I said, or how I said it.
There's a bunch of peeps in a drama thread I never read, who have been seething and raging about me for some time now.
They've been conspiring and congratulating each other when they managed to cause drama around me.

LOL. Kindergarden much?
I was half expecting them to start discussing their nose-pickings next.

Kassandra, I'm sorry this carp spread to your thread.
I had no idea this was going on- at least it shows me the people I have on my ignorelist are there for very good reasons.

I hope it didn't affect your experience on the site negatively.



Sorry for the double post but this is for the edited part:



Don't worry!

It's not about the thread it belongs to the whole community so that everyone has the chance to learn what I was lucky enough to learn thanks to who contributed to it.



I just felt bad for what happened because as I said I don't think people love to argue and the moments when it happens especially if it's about yourself.

[SeaGlass Siren]

mermaid lexi has her own tank ;D she uses that as her aquarium. no fish in it.

[Mermaid Lorelei]

EDIT: Nevermind.

I just found out this whole affair here wasn't about the topic, or what I said, or how I said it.
There's a bunch of peeps in a drama thread I never read, who have been seething and raging about me for some time now.
They've been conspiring and congratulating each other when they managed to cause drama around me.

LOL. Kindergarden much?
I was half expecting them to start discussing their nose-pickings next.

Kassandra, I'm sorry this carp spread to your thread.
I had no idea this was going on- at least it shows me the people I have on my ignorelist are there for very good reasons.

I hope it didn't affect your experience on the site negatively.

Honestly Echidna? Yes, a good deal of what was said to you on this thread was about this thread. You had some opinions and statements that could be detrimental to a person's understanding of aquariums and how they are run and it was deemed necessary by other members to call you on it. Such statements as -

I doubt the value of people gawking at animals through a glasspane (as opposed to on a TV screen ) is that much more valuable than the ethical and natural treatment of a creature.
Though bland in appearance because of your wording, you've made aquariums out to be unethical centers used purely for people to gawk at ill tended animals. As others have stated, this is incorrect.


It's true that humans have made life in the wild very difficult and exterminate entire species every single day.

That's not an argument for catching wild animals and keeping them for amusement, unless it is indeed done for conversation.
I'm not getting into the trick-discussion here, especially not with someone who is employing SeaPrison lingo and SeaPrison propaganda
"it's not a trick, it's a behaviour"- you can call it a banana, doesn't make it a banana dudes.

"Animals live far longer in capivity than in the wild"- often a lie that has been exposed a long while ago
"They don't do the behaviour because they have to, but because they really want to!!"

Life in the wild today is hard for animals, and it's humanity's fault entirely.
One should make up for that with efforts to make life in the wild easier again, not imprison what remains and call it a day.
Would this not be all the MORE reason to keep some animals in captivity? If we humans truly are 'exterminating entire species every single day', and it's plain that we won't be able to fix the planet overnight, should we not be caring for some small bastions of these animal populations?
Also, your wording in most of your posts (both on this thread and not) when discussing something you disagree over can come across as exceedingly condescending. Whether this is on purpose or not, people are right to get tired of it.


As for the other parts of your edited post, please just stop it. Sure, people might be upset at you and that's their right. To call them kindergartners who pick their noses is both rude and not in any way helpful to your image. Perhaps engaging them in a more mature manner would change the way that they view you. As for conspiring against you, seriously? Where did you even get that from? People are airing their grievances about you. This doesn't make them conspirators. It simply makes them people who have reached their limit with something, in this case you.

Honestly, I'm really sorry that this much drama has cropped up, mostly because it has made finding relevant topics more difficult. However, I do think that in the majority of the cases listed, you were in the wrong. Does this make me a nose-picking kindergarten conspirator? Fine if that's so. I hope you possibly take something from all of this and know that most of us don't mean you harm. We're just tired.

[Theobromine]

Lorelei :thumbs up::clap::hug::highfive::cheerleader::pearl::hail:

[Mermaid Mystery]

yes!!!!!
also I would like to specifically point out the "Animals live longer in captivity" statement. I in my personal experience have heard of only one species that doesn't live longer in captivity. I'm not speaking for every animal because i can assure you I know little to nothing about aquatic animals and pachyderms. But saying that it's false is a flat out lie.

[AniaR]

:bulldozer:Sorry mods but I had to reply...

why not just make a separate post instead of sneakily going back and editing (something people might not see) your original?


I just found out this whole affair here wasn't about the topic, or what I said, or how I said it.
There's a bunch of peeps in a drama thread I never read, who have been seething and raging about me for some time now.
They've been conspiring and congratulating each other when they managed to cause drama around me.

No actually, the drama thread came after. I TOLD you there were some comments directed at you in other threads in terms of how you word things and come across. When I said:

But a lot of people do find you rude, there have been passive aggressive posts about it in other threads if you didn't see :/

I just feel like you were going to get a post like this from SOMEONE for a while now, because a lot of people have been brewing

It's not conspiracy. I told you, the way you come off in posts is wearing people out. So it boiled over here, and it boiled over there. The affair was Exactly about the topic, and exactly about how you said your points. Every reply here AND there is about that very thing. Literally. The way you come across. Which I think we talked about enough. Do you really think it's just a whole bunch of mermaids with nothing better to do than pretend as part of some conspiracy that you come across poorly on the internet? I mean... really?

Girl, you're swimming right down the river I went, and I hate to tell you there's a big water fall crash coming soon if you don't turn tail and swim up stream! Save yourself the epic crash because I can tell you; it takes a lot to come back from.

[Mermaid Kassandra]

Ok I'm trying to get back on topic!





Someone shared this on my Facebook it's and article from last year about India's prohibition to keep in captivity any kind of cetacean for public shows.





Here it is the link:





http://peacefulwarriors.net/india-declares-dolphins-to-be-non-human-persons-dolphin-shows-banned-2/








Now in my opinion this was a great decision as this can prevent to have the same situation of SeaWorld and if I understood well this prohibition doesn't touch research and rehabilitation programs, even though it doesn't let anyone see the exemplars in the tanks not even during their natural behaviors.





In this way also aquariums lose their right to self-sponsoring themselves without guests (I mean aquariums like Clearwaters that became famous for its rehabilitation program for dolphins thanks to loads of guests coming from all over only to see Winter and Hope).





So what do you think about it?



In my opinion this can be a good alternative to prevent the abuse of cetacean captivity with the excuse of the research so that only interested people can do research, but at the same time I feel this can give a stop to the research because only private corporations will detain the main part of the research's result and I don't know if this can be good for the international community and the research in general.

[SeaGlass Siren]

I thought this might be relevant to the post but here is a pretty good alternative people are working on.
virtual reality aquariums
full page of info is here: http://www.ceta-journal.net/stop-keeping-dolphins-in-captivity-interactive-virtual-reality-showcase-is-the-future/

[Ciriun]

Virtual cetaceans would be awesome! Even better if they can work in some nice 3D tech. Ooh, and make it a touch screen so you can 'pet' them! And why limit it to dolphins? I want to get up close with some life sized virtual whales! And while I'm dreaming, how about throwing in some marine reptiles, too? I know there are some great models of those already.

I'm picturing something like Endless Ocean, but on at least three walls or one big concave one, maybe ceiling as well. Then you could watch them swim around you while you play with settings to choose what you want to be in the aquarium at any given moment.

[Mermaid Kassandra]

Virtual cetaceans would be awesome! Even better if they can work in some nice 3D tech. Ooh, and make it a touch screen so you can 'pet' them! And why limit it to dolphins? I want to get up close with some life sized virtual whales! And while I'm dreaming, how about throwing in some marine reptiles, too? I know there are some great models of those already.

I'm picturing something like Endless Ocean, but on at least three walls or one big concave one, maybe ceiling as well. Then you could watch them swim around you while you play with settings to choose what you want to be in the aquarium at any given moment.


Holy fins why didn't we think about that?
I think this is the most wonderful idea ever! *.*

I want an aquarium like that now!!! 😆

[Theobromine]

So...I think a high-tech virtual aquarium does sound like a very cool idea in some ways, but in the interest of maintaining this as an educational thread, I'd like to point out that a virtual aquarium would never be able to actually replace a zoological collection of living creatures. There are many problems a virtual aquarium would not be able to solve:

1. Research. The research that is conducted in an aquarium facility provides immeasurably valuable information about physiology, behavior, and life histories, and much of this information is useful if not downright necessary for effective conservation strategies. For example, how can we protect a certain species unless we know its food preferences, habitat preferences, behavior, and reproduction strategies? Many marine species are actually far too difficult to thoroughly study in the wild, due to scarcity, restricted range, or remote (or deep) habitats that are difficult to even reach. And building off of this point, how could you even program realistic virtual animals unless you have done enough research to become VERY familiar with all of their characteristics? You can't.

2. Captive breeding. Obviously, you can't breed virtual animals. As I've mentioned before, aquariums participate in Species Survival Plans that help ensure the continued survival of a LOT of different species. No aquariums, no SSPs. And also no safe haven for animals that would be facing massive threats from habitat destruction, pollution, overfishing, poaching, rising sea temperatures and ocean acidification, etc. And while of course it's still critically important to do everything we can to reduce these threats, there is just no overnight solution.

3. Rescue and rehabilitation. Many aquariums are able to take in rescued marine wildlife and rehabilitate it through the expert care of highly trained animal care and veterinary staff. If we were to eliminate these facilities, injured wildlife that people find would have no place to go and nobody who would be properly trained and experienced in caring for them and treating their medical issues. Without care and medical attention, most injured wildlife would sadly die.

I'm not trying to shoot anyone down, I'm just trying to make sure everyone is thinking critically about these issues and considering ALL the implications of certain actions. I do think a virtual aquarium could be a really cool educational tool (especially as technology would be a lot more portable and less stress-prone than live animals) but it could never be used in place of an actual aquarium.

[Theobromine]

As for the article Kassandra posted about India banning dolphin captivity and dolphin shows, I'm a little bit divided in my opinion on this one, so let me explain. I do think that recognizing dolphins as highly intelligent beings capable of complex thought and emotion IS a good precedent to set. I definitely don't support keeping them in captivity for the sole purpose of entertainment. However...I do also worry about there being a precedent set for politicians and lawmakers deciding that they know better about animal behavior/physiology than the actual experts who devote their lives to studying and caring for them and working on conservation efforts. It's a slippery slope. We already have enough politicians who try to legislate on scientific issues while ignoring ALL the actual evidence presented by scientists...

So consider this case study (http://www.awesomeocean.com/2015/07/22/this-dolphin-didnt-have-to-die/) of a dolphin that was found stranded in the UK with a severe sunburn. The injury would have been easy for a veterinarian to treat but would have led to a painful and life-threatening infection if left untreated. Due to a lack of adequate facilities, there was nowhere for the dolphin to actually be taken for treatment, so it was instead euthanized by wildlife officials. Now, I will say that they don't link to an actual news article about this particular dolphin so I haven't yet been able to find the source and determine how true it is (though from my reading it is true that laws were passed in 1985 that eventually led to dolphin facilities going out of business and there are currently no captive dolphins in the UK). HOWEVER, even if we were to assume this story as fictional, it is not the slightest bit far-fetched and still provides a clear example of what WILL happen if well-meaning but ill-informed continue to pressure governments into outlawing cetacean captivity. The closing line of the article I linked to is "Without the proper facilities and their expertly trained staff, animals are left to suffer and die." I want everybody here to understand the truth of that.

Another issue with attempting to force all aquariums and marine parks to immediately free all of their cetaceans is that it is NOT that simple. You can't just dump an animal out in the wild and expect it to not be intensely stressed out, or to immediately know how to survive and hunt and avoid predation and other dangers. Many of the cetaceans currently in captivity were actually BORN in captivity (remember what I said about SSPs), and were never taken from the wild in the first place. Learning how to survive in the wild isn't completely instinctual. Much of it has to be learned from parents or other adults (there are many many examples of all different species having to be extensively conditioned and prepared for the transition from captivity to wild). Freeing a large wild animal is a long, involved, expensive process, and even when these measures are taken, there is still no guarantee of the transition being successful. I'm sure everyone here is familiar with at least the name of Keiko, the orca that got so famous for starring in Free Willy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keiko_%28orca%29)? After the success of those movies, people all over the world started petitioning to actually free Keiko, assuming the real life story would have a happy ending like the movies did. Many people don't realize that Keiko never properly re-integrated with the wild orcas, instead seeking out human contact, and he eventually died about 18 months after his release (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3315519.stm). It's a very sad story and it's definitely not how any of us want to see these stories play out.

[Theobromine]

Following that up with this article from NOAA (http://sanctuaries.noaa.gov/dolphinsmart/pdfs/dolphin_dep.pdf) about the incidence of wild dolphin deaths resulting from recreational fishing gear (informative article, but fyi it's a pdf). I recommend reading the whole article, but the quick overview is that they were finding an increase in dead, stranded dolphins that had ingested fishing gear such as hooks and monofilament line. The article goes in depth, but one possible cause of this is that dolphins were resorting to stealing bait or game fish off of fishing lines due to depletion of fish populations that resulted in difficulty finding enough food. I'm using this as an example to illustrate that...it's a dangerous world out there. It truly sucks, but humans are destroying habitats and trashing the environment at an incredible rate and it's having serious consequences for wildlife.

[SeaGlass Siren]

Im not saying ban all aquariums though. If it were solely used for the purpose of entertainment id rather go the virtual aquarium route.
obviously for rehab and release programs that require them to be inside a tank is completely dofferent than keeping them to make them jump through hoops.
as for the whole humans are detroying the environment we should keep them in a tank arguement, i rather people just watch what they put out... But i know im hoping for too much.

[SeaGlass Siren]

And obviously tanks used for research because there is merit to that.
Businesses that keep them to do tricks and other ridiculous things like having humans stand on top of them are a completely different story.

[Theobromine]

Im not saying ban all aquariums though. If it were solely used for the purpose of entertainment id rather go the virtual aquarium route.
obviously for rehab and release programs that require them to be inside a tank is completely dofferent than keeping them to make them jump through hoops.
as for the whole humans are detroying the environment we should keep them in a tank arguement, i rather people just watch what they put out... But i know im hoping for too much.

I wasn't suggesting you WERE saying that, I'm just doing my best to encourage everyone to think critically, you know? And there are so many people out there who ARE in favor of banning all aquariums outright, I just think it's very important to make sure everyone is as informed as possible. The mermaid community tends to be...at least SEMI-eco conscious, in that almost all of us at least care a great deal about the environment and such, and many mers do practice what they preach. The problem is just when people are preaching incorrect information.

Also, no one wishes $%^&* humans would stop f#%%ing up the environment more than I do, seriously :P I never ever imply that I think we should just keep animals in tanks and have done with it. Habitat loss and pollution and all the other environmental issues I've mentioned multiple times before are a HUGE issue, but we have to be realistic about it. Even if we could convince every person on the planed to start working together TOMORROW to reduce their carbon emissions, stop using plastic, start reusing or recycling everything, stop supporting unsafe practices and unsustainable fisheries etc. etc. etc. we would STILL not be seeing any significant reversal of these problems right away. Enough momentum has built up that it would take years to reverse much of the damage, and there are some things that are just completely irreversible. For example, there is now so much plastic in the oceans, much of it worn down into microscopic particles and distributed across every type of environment, that it is literally impossible to remove it all. Ever. Which is fucking bullshit in my opinion but there's nothing my opinion can do to change the reality of the situation. It makes me really really angry to think about...but this is why I attempt to educate everyone I possibly can. This is WHY I do what I do.

[AniaR]

I feel like this would be a cool place to photo dump some of my aquarium photos I've taken!

https://scontent.fyhz1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/529252_10151610762305425_210158777_n.jpg?oh=c2d856 180c26263238920ed98dab850a&oe=5689EF84Q

https://scontent.fyhz1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/576514_10151610762490425_295928901_n.jpg?oh=7c8bcf d4f41b2a73b9788d205ab1b864&oe=56D2FE17

https://scontent.fyhz1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/536375_10151610762910425_1882878570_n.jpg?oh=41fb7 1cb7fece552d22bf80d0dc98c92&oe=568C79B5

https://scontent.fyhz1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/531326_10151610763325425_1450735888_n.jpg?oh=7172e 829e2549c6a133f70b30216f058&oe=568B1553

https://scontent.fyhz1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/18855_399846430424_6216360_n.jpg?oh=7bafbb5436cdf3 feb11c28c592180a14&oe=56881C3B

http://img14.deviantart.net/0c47/i/2014/011/1/1/jellfishies_by_raine_angel-d71v0ba.jpg

http://img04.deviantart.net/4254/i/2014/011/9/c/floating_by_raine_angel-d71uzye.jpg

http://orig11.deviantart.net/2eea/f/2014/011/8/2/jellyedits_by_raine_angel-d71uzf3.jpg

Just a few :D

[SeaGlass Siren]

The second&third last photos remind me of a jellyfish princess character I've been daydreaming about :3

[Ciriun]

Wow Raina! Those photographs are stunning! Me with my amateur photography skills and run of the mill camera, I just have a massive collection of fish blurs. :P

As for the live animals vs. virtual, I wouldn't replace the entire aquarium with virtual fish, just stuff like dolphin shows. And like I mentioned, maybe utilize it to let people get the closest thing reasonable to encountering animals an aquarium can't house.

Most people are never going to swim with, for instance, a blue whale. Heck, even in the museums that have life sized models you can't get very close to them. But imagine standing in a room covered in huge screens and getting to watch a lifelike model majestically glide into view, filling the room and then some. It pauses for a moment with its eye perfectly level with you as if it is curious about the strange creature observing it. You reach out to touch the screen and the animal shifts closer, as if you were actually petting it. Then it continues on its way, the whole length of its body passing across the screens until at last it disappears from view.

Or for a more interactive one, have a guide or a quick video teach you signals that can be recognized by motion sensing software. This puts you in charge of your choice of virtual dolphin or porpoise species that you can direct to do tricks and feed virtual fish to. Different tricks could be paired with audio clips talking about how those behaviors are used in nature or veterinary care. Something a little like this, but obviously more advanced since technology has improved since this game was made: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg2jUutszFc

There is also at least one freemium app game I know of that simulates dolphin training.

[Theobromine]

Those are cool photos, Raina! I'll have to find some of the ones my husband has taken.

I also wanted to post about a couple animals I've personally known and worked with. They've both passed away within the last year or two, sadly, but they are good examples of how long aquarium animals can live. Woodstock (http://blog.seattleaquarium.org/conservation/farewell-to-woodstock/)(Woody) was a female northern fur seal. Fur seals in the wild live 15-20 years. Woody was 24 when she passed. She had even undergone successful cataract surgery!

Lizzie (http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article25904596.html)the lemon shark was one of my favorites from the aquarium where I did my internship during college and had great fun learning to target feed sharks. Lemon sharks are generally known to live 25-27 years, and Lizzie was 30 when she passed. I was so upset when I found out she had passed away literally the day before I went to the aquarium with Iona and I had been looking for her :(

[SeaGlass Siren]

^ ciriun more or less said what I wanted to say

[Keiris]

Raina, those pics are AWESOME! You really are quite the shutterbug!!

[Theobromine]

Here's a link to my husband's photo gallery of fishes we've seen at various aquariums: https://www.flickr.com/photos/az84/sets/72157633018522469 I can't find my favorite one on there right now so I'll just link the whole album and find the Pterois antennata pic later :P We've got that one framed on our wall at home. I can't take credit for his photography skills but I do find cool stuff for him to shoot and help him identify them, haha.

[Mermaid Kassandra]

Thank you very much indeed Theobromine!



As always you're my "reference person" where to learn new and important things!



And congratulations to your husband he's so talented!

Wow Raina your pictures are breathtaking!
I think it would be a great idea to share here also the pictures we took in aquariums and correlate them with our experiences!

Ciruin that is stunning and I completely agree with you it would be amazing to have a simulation of real-size animals like whales and similar!
It would be helpful to increase interest also in that marine life that normally you can't see!

[SeaGlass Siren]

I kind of want to see an extinct species exhibit as part of the virtual aquarium . Imagine finally "seeing" the first species of fish and the dinosaurs

[Mermaid Kassandra]

I kind of want to see an extinct species exhibit as part of the virtual aquarium . Imagine finally "seeing" the first species of fish and the dinosaurs


Oh that would be awesome too!

[Ciriun]

I have so much love for marine reptiles and trilobites and stuff like that. So add to my dream exhibit an option where you can select different time periods and watch an exhibit of those creatures. Maybe if you tap on one on the screen it will bring up information about them somewhere unobtrusive, like at the very bottom. Personally I would want a minimum of one for each geologic period starting at the Cambrian.

Should I start a new topic for currently existing virtual fish/sea creature games and such? Because this is really making me want to share and discuss them and I wouldn't want to steal someone else's thread.

[Mermaid Kassandra]

I have so much love for marine reptiles and trilobites and stuff like that. So add to my dream exhibit an option where you can select different time periods and watch an exhibit of those creatures. Maybe if you tap on one on the screen it will bring up information about them somewhere unobtrusive, like at the very bottom. Personally I would want a minimum of one for each geologic period starting at the Cambrian.

Should I start a new topic for currently existing virtual fish/sea creature games and such? Because this is really making me want to share and discuss them and I wouldn't want to steal someone else's thread.


Yes please do! 😍

[Theobromine]

Thanks Kassandra :) I'm always happy to help out! This is my biggest passion so I love sharing my knowledge, and I love learning from other people too. There's always so much more to learn! I will post some more information and sources soon when I get a chance. Also, can I tell my husband you said that about his photography? I always tell him he's so talented and his photos are good enough to sell, but he doesn't think they are :P

I know for a fact that I personally was inspired big-time by going to zoos and aquariums as a kid. As much as I also always loved watching nature documentaries, there was something about the experience of seeing these real live animals face-to-face that could never be replicated. And the later in life, being able to work with them continued and even intensified that feeling. I'd always liked sharks, but getting to know them personally when I did my aquarium internship during college, I absolutely fell in love with them. All of the sharks were individually target fed a couple of times per week using long poles, so you had to be able to identify each shark by its colors and markings (which was easy if there were only one or two of a certain species, but we had 10 nurse sharks!). We had to keep track of exactly how much of which type of fish/squid/clam and how many vitamins each shark was eating and record it so we could keep track. It was pretty cool because each shark had a particular feeding area around the edge of the big tank, and they all knew where to go when it was feeding time (that didn't stop some of them from occasionally sneaking off and stealing someone else's food, though). I also learned that sharks can even be clicker-trained. They weren't doing it actively when I worked there, but the curator at the time was an elasmobranch husbandry expert who had done some work on clicker-training sand tiger sharks. Those guys are smarter than most people think.

[Ciriun]

New thread for virtual fishies is here: http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?12014-Virtual-Sea-Life-Games-Apps-Screensavers-and-More!-Share-and-Discuss!&p=218428#post218428

And I don't suppose any of these wildly skilled and talented photographers would be willing to share a few tips for aquarium photography? I don't expect a full lecture because that's what it would take to get anywhere near that good, but maybe a few of the more basic tricks to getting a fish that isn't blurry from motion and covered in glare on the glass?

[Mermaid Kassandra]

Thanks Kassandra :) I'm always happy to help out! This is my biggest passion so I love sharing my knowledge, and I love learning from other people too. There's always so much more to learn! I will post some more information and sources soon when I get a chance. Also, can I tell my husband you said that about his photography? I always tell him he's so talented and his photos are good enough to sell, but he doesn't think they are :P

I know for a fact that I personally was inspired big-time by going to zoos and aquariums as a kid. As much as I also always loved watching nature documentaries, there was something about the experience of seeing these real live animals face-to-face that could never be replicated. And the later in life, being able to work with them continued and even intensified that feeling. I'd always liked sharks, but getting to know them personally when I did my aquarium internship during college, I absolutely fell in love with them. All of the sharks were individually target fed a couple of times per week using long poles, so you had to be able to identify each shark by its colors and markings (which was easy if there were only one or two of a certain species, but we had 10 nurse sharks!). We had to keep track of exactly how much of which type of fish/squid/clam and how many vitamins each shark was eating and record it so we could keep track. It was pretty cool because each shark had a particular feeding area around the edge of the big tank, and they all knew where to go when it was feeding time (that didn't stop some of them from occasionally sneaking off and stealing someone else's food, though). I also learned that sharks can even be clicker-trained. They weren't doing it actively when I worked there, but the curator at the time was an elasmobranch husbandry expert who had done some work on clicker-training sand tiger sharks. Those guys are smarter than most people think.


I feel the same and I love to learn from other people too!

Yes of course you can tell him what I said he must know his talent 😊