Extended Tails: Concepts & Designs

[Nykur]

Hello Mernetwork!

So a quick introduction: Hi everybody, Im Nykur (aka Dian) and Im from South Africa!:cool: Ive been on the forum for a few years but have been on the incognito side..
Anyways, Ive seen so many amazing tails and awesome tutorials that I cant wait to begin my very first silicone tail! But for this thread Ive got a totally different reason.

Im planning a photoshoot I want to do closer to middle or end 2016 (asap honestly) and the theme of this shoot is obviously "mermaids" (why else would I consult the best merfolk community ever;))


The problem I now face is the two desired traits I want the tail to have:
*Must be totally flexible thus eliminating the stiff rod in the extended part of the tail.
*Not a huge issue but I would really like it to be "semi swimable"(meaning there is no major deep diving swimming going to be done with the tails but possible shallow underwater shoots.)
So I believe that when I remove the rod to eliminate stiffness Im also sadly eliminating propulsion for swimming.:headdesk:

For this thread Im going to be discussing my designs for a "Hybrid" type of extended tail concept, I dunno what to call it really?

Ive studied the extended tails threads but still cant come to any concluding designs, Im starting this post to hear from you guys if you have any tips or ideas as how to make these extended tails more life like and "floppy" for the photoshoot yet possiby swimmable? Without getting that "stiff" look that the H2O and Mako tails possess..

I will try my best to frequently post new color schemes and designs for the tails as well as updated attributes of the tails build as they progress! :p

~Nykur

[Echidna]

Awesome tail design! :thumbs-up:

As to your question;
I've made (and swum in) quite a few extended tails.

Flexible, swirly tails without mechanism inside look the most realistic, but offer zero propulsion (and a lot of drag) as you already said.
It takes a very strong swimmer to move in such a tail, but it's not impossible.

So far, no one has been able to make a flexible extended tail that offers serious propulsion and I fear it's not possible.
Your best bet is imo; make the tail without mechanism, and help the models to appear mobile with off-screen helpers (pony tank, divers to move the models where they need to be; you can even film this and cut the pulling diver out).
For photoshoots and slow, graceful posing, you don't need a propulsion device anyway.

Maybe some new technology will introduce a solution someday- I'd love to be able to swim fast in my serpent tails without looking like a stiff rod for sure.

[Nykur]

Echidna, I totally understand that a strong swimmer can still swim the tails even without propulsion. My male models will probably be able to swim like that, its the female models Im worried about, I know as a fact that my models are not the strongest swimmers because ive known them for a few years now.. One of them even hates the ocean but desperately want to be the model because she loves my photoshoots..:lol:

[Mermaid Wesley]

I would suggest you get your models very used to drag underwater so they are comfortable in the tails. They don't have to be strong in muscles, but they do have to be comfortable and able to handle the stress and strain of tail swimming. It may help to have them practice in long flowing skirts underwater so that they can get the feel for the resistance and see if they can handle it. The men too. Tail swimming is very very weird for a lot of people. Without a monofin is bound to be weirder. If your models are relaxed and in control you will have a better time :)

I can't wait to see what you do!


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[Luna Dreamtide]

Your ideas sounds amazing. I'd love to see how this progresses. Your design sketch is gorgeous by the way! :)

[Mermaid Jaffa]

How bout making a tail pants with long freediving flippers?

Then you can have that extended look and the tail is more flowing, finny and natural looking.

Here is a a rough idea of what I mean. When they put their legs together, it will look like a mermaid tail.
35077

[jukumerboii]

omg i loooooove your designs!!! wish i could be a model for you!

[Mermaid Wesley]

Long freediving flippers in an extended tail *scratches imaginary beard*
Hmmmmmmmm


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[Nykur]

Mermaid Jaffa: OMG:jawdrop: I absolutely love that idea!! Although being 100% suitable for the underwater shoot the dry shoot closeups could potentially be a problem with the split in the middle of the tail... Although, your design gave me an awesome idea for a split more 'mermanish' tail! Thank U!

Mermaid Wesley: I never thought of practicing handling drag, thats a brilliant idea! The guy models are strong swimmers used to drag, and one of the girls is a professional swimmer used to drag... but Ill be sure to put the other models through "Wesleys Mermaiding Practice":cool:

And thank u guys for all the positive feedback! :highfive:

[Mermaid Jaffa]

Np! They could then use it as practice "tail" too, to build up the strength to swim in your tails.

[Nykur]

That kinda brings me to a new scenario, does anyone have ideas on how to realistically add a dorsal to a models back? Im afraid of to many straps seeing that the models are not going to wear bras and such, only covered with hair..:confused:

[Mermaid Jaffa]

That kinda brings me to a new scenario, does anyone have ideas on how to realistically add a dorsal to a models back? Im afraid of to many straps seeing that the models are not going to wear bras and such, only covered with hair..:confused:

I've successfully made 2 one piece swimsuits with dorsal fins on the back.

You could use or make flesh colored swimwear that the models wear. And its easier to photoshop the flesh colored swimsuit than one where the suit is brightly colored. Also, certain colors blend very well underwater. The one that does this quite easily is, light blue, light pink and a few other light colors. If your models are darker shades, you could get away with brown or chocolate colors. That sounds so bad! Hopefully you get what I mean because that sounded so racist!

[Rogue Siren]

For the dorsals, Skin Tite (http://www.smooth-on.com/Silicone-Rubber-an/c2_1115_1193/index.html) is AMAZING.

Its a silicone based, skin safe adhesive. Its waterproof and can even be sculpted. Use it to adhere a prosthetic to skin. That prosthetic won't come off until you remove it.

[Merman Storm]

I think the trick to getting both propulsion, and a good looking movement from an extended tail, is adding a flexible spine to it. Something about as flexible as a fishing rod. You would want something that is stiffer near your feet, and more flexible toward the tail tip. You could use a fishing rod, or a sheet of polycabonate, tapered from the feet to the tip. By trying different widths and thicknesses of the polycarb, you can get the movement you desire, while still getting some propulsion.
Looking at your designs, I have a concern. They are very voluminous. What fills the space between the outer skin and the model? It cannot be silicon, it would be to heavy when out of the water. It could be foam, but it cannot be closed cell foam, or the model will just float on the surface. You could use open cell foam, carefully squeezing out all the air, getting it to flood with water.
Once it's flooded with water, you have the issue of it's mass. The water will be hard to move, and once moving, will not want to change direction or stop. This will also make it hard for the models to move, and may make the movement look un-natural. To minimize this, you may want to re-think some of your designs, keeping the volume as low as you can while still getting the shapes you want.

[jukumerboii]

I've successfully made 2 one piece swimsuits with dorsal fins on the back.

You could use or make flesh colored swimwear that the models wear. And its easier to photoshop the flesh colored swimsuit than one where the suit is brightly colored. Also, certain colors blend very well underwater. The one that does this quite easily is, light blue, light pink and a few other light colors. If your models are darker shades, you could get away with brown or chocolate colors. That sounds so bad! Hopefully you get what I mean because that sounded so racist!

lol that wasn't racist at all love!!

[Luna Dreamtide]

I'm just in awe of those concept sketches! I do traditional art and would love to be able to translate that to digital arts!

[Mermaid Jaffa]

lol that wasn't racist at all love!!
Cool! I didn't know how to word it so it sounded nice.

[Nykur]

Merman Storm: Thank you so much for the advice! I see what you mean with the mass, it is going to be filled with a soft sponge and covered with neoprene, ive done a test with it before and it worked perfectly for te dry shoots..
like I said, the swimming is luckily not a major issue, its an additional trait that I wouldnt have mind having the tails to have. The major shoot is going to be the models on rocks, riversides and natural fountains.
And if the is to be any swimming needed it wouldnt be deep. As in the models wil be able to stand with head and chest out of water:D
Ive already put together an extra team of swimmers to help the mermaids position themselves in the water..
Its hard to explain but the mermaid wont actually be doing real "swimming" shots, it will be more of a soft gracefull effect the models just kinda buoyantly float in the water.. Ill try to sketch up some poses to beter explain my vision:p

[Nykur]

Ok, I thick I might cut down on the mass of the tails and possibly make them a bit more skin tight..

Heres an idea for propulsion of the tails without using a rod:

35123

The blue is a monofin and then the extended part of the tail will be thinner and flatter for that floppy effect, thoughts from u guys? :confused:

[Nykur]

The monofin then acts as two side fins instead of the main fluke..

[Dancing Fish]

That's a great idea! (No idea if it'll work, but I love the design!)

[Sherielle]

I've had a thought of doing an extended tail with a mechanism much like those wooden jointed snake toys.
http://www.instructables.com/id/Antiqued-Wooden-Snake-Toys/

Only the motion would go up and down instead of side to side.

[Nykur]

Sherielle, that is an awesome idea! Id like it to have full motion tough, up and down and sideways and so forth, but its definitely something I'll be looking into! Thank u! :cool:

@Dancing Fish, thank you! :p

[Mermaid Wesley]

I've seem people sketch that sort of thing up before but have never seen it in action. It looks great!


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[Echidna]

The monofin then acts as two side fins instead of the main fluke..

this has been done before.
There's a video about it, but I forgot the name and can't find it atm.

It was going to be a movie.

Edit: found the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICXiijPt7nw

[Fifi Tigg]

They look like they have a lot of drag and difficult to swim in.

[Sabrina the Selkie]

That do look hard.

[Raquel Skellington]

I think cutting down on the width of the body was a good move.
I used to be on a competitive swim team for like 8 years as a kid and some of the "fun" training that we did was drag training and weight swimming. Even now at 20 I can still pack a punch in a dolphin kick. What I think is important that your models should maybe train in is just being able to balance and "float" in the tails. I think there is a way to make them kind of swimmable for like photoshoots- but not practically.
I model as well (just regular stuff not mer stuff YET:cool:) and I've done some underwater shoots in long fluffy dresses which staying afloat in and being in balance was a serious challenge. But I think it will be possible to achieve the look you're going for!

[Mer-Crazy]

They look like they have a lot of drag and difficult to swim in.
Not to mention it looks... off because where the legs are it looks stiff/ like there is muscle and bone there where as the end looks WAY too floppy. I do agree that the H2O/ Mako tails may take the rigidness a little too far, but it looks better than the floppiness of those tails IMHO

[Sabrina the Selkie]

I actually really like the H2O tails, tbh.

But I can see why one wouldn't like the rigidity.

[Mer-Crazy]

I actually really like the H2O tails, tbh.

But I can see why one wouldn't like the rigidity.
Looking at them really closely (I watched these (http://mermaids-mako.tumblr.com/post/80827008867/nixies-underwater-scenes-in-dolphin-tail-1x06) gifs too many times) you can slightly see the rigidness in the last portion of the tail but it only really shows on a side on look and only a little. From behind the fluke creates the illusion that it's much more fluid and honestly I really like the look too haha. Except maybe that bit right at the begining that makes her but look a little big, but again that's only really in the side on view haha

[Merman Storm]

this has been done before.
There's a video about it, but I forgot the name and can't find it atm.

It was going to be a movie.

Edit: found the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICXiijPt7nw

To me those look too flexible, like a piece of dead skin flapping in the current, not part of a living creature. Add at least a little stiffness.

[Sabrina the Selkie]

Get what you mean, Mer-Crazy. Certain angles are less fluid than others, ne? On the thickness, that's been more of an issue for me with Mako, I feel like there's a bit of gapping. Otherwise, I always just felt that it gave a muscly thickness to the body that just looked so real to me.

Agreed on the dead skin bit, Merman Storm.

[Mermaid Alea]

What about constructing the end with segments like what people do for say making dinosaur tails that move side to side when you walk? Or like those plastic toy snakes that move because they are made in segments? That way the monofin will still be in the fins but the extended part will appear to have more structure to it yet it will still move. Just an idea.

[Ashton]

Defiantly a neat concept, kinda like the Aquamarine movie tail.
(or at least I think the movie is Aquamarine... I may be mistaken)

[Rett]

Been thinking a lot about how to get an easily swimmable extended tail so that I could go out and swim in pools, springs, or the ocean. From what I have heard of the rod-kick-plate extended tails used in H20, you can't maneuver or swim in them very well at all since the rods are entirely rigid and dont twist at all to accommodate turning motions (whereas when wearing a monofin on your feet allows you to twist the blade via your legs). I dont know about the new Mako Mermaids tails since those seem less rigid and more easily swimmable, but that seems to be the idea about the old style. I was thinking about how Mermaid Linden has a fantastic tail for swimming though, and so did a bit of research about her tail. I couldn't find too much info about it (I am thinking about hunting down the contact info of the special effects guy that created hers to see if he would answer some questions about the construction) but from what I have heard it sounds like hers is literally just the silicone body part, and the extension is just a big blob of silicone with an encased fiberglass monofin (just the blade-- so sans foot pocket). I am going to sketch up some design plans tomorrow so you guys can understand a little better what I mean, but do you think its possible to use just silicone as the kickplate if you used the most rigid silicone you could find? Or, if that wouldnt provide any propulsion, maybe use a rod to connected to the blade to travel up the tail a little, but not really have a kickplate at all? Just trying to think my way around getting a swimmable extended tail and thought I'd share my ideas.

[Mermaid Jaffa]

How bout somethings like this? You attach the monofin near the end of the long bladed swim fins or flippers. You'd still have the fluid fishy movement, and there is no rigid rod plates to deal with.
35169

[Rett]

This is roughly what I was thinking. I have no clue if this would work at all or not, it was just a thought.
35174

[Prince Calypso]

Ok, I thick I might cut down on the mass of the tails and possibly make them a bit more skin tight..

Heres an idea for propulsion of the tails without using a rod:

35123

The blue is a monofin and then the extended part of the tail will be thinner and flatter for that floppy effect, thoughts from u guys? :confused:


your concept art is amazing. like beautiful

there is a video floating around with a similar idea to what your proposing, though the tails are longer.
the tails in the video end up looking more ribbon and eel like under water.
but then again those tails were neoprene
who knows how it would look in silicone

[Mermaid Jaffa]

There a type of monofin that has a longer blade. Its like a long rectangular fiberglass monofin with yellow on the outside. I've only ever seen it once on Youtube. You could build the tail fluke around it so it would look like an extended h2o tail.

Found it!
http://lauderdalediver.com/OMER-Monoflap-Monofin.html

[Lindsey Yow]

I don't have any advice but this definitely seems like an awesome idea and I can't wait to see the end product!

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[Mermaid_Izzy]

This is roughly what I was thinking. I have no clue if this would work at all or not, it was just a thought.
35174

I really like your idea, but wouldn't it be better to use something like polypropylene plastic instead? I just feel like fiber glass would be easier to shatter...


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[Nykur]

That might also make the tail a bit heavy.. The solid silicone thing, maybe instead the type of foam used in the Mako mermaid tails?

[Rett]

I really like your idea, but wouldn't it be better to use something like polypropylene plastic instead? I just feel like fiber glass would be easier to shatter...


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Fiberglass does not shatter, it actually bends. Fiberglass has a very tough breaking point though. It is the material used in almost every professional monofin (the competitor for instance)

[Rett]

That might also make the tail a bit heavy.. The solid silicone thing, maybe instead the type of foam used in the Mako mermaid tails?

On land it would be, but since silicone is naturally buoyant in the water it wouldn't be an issue when actually swimming. Foam, however, would float which would severely complicate swimming. You would have to weight it down with a ton of diving waits. This was a pretty old idea though and my plans for extended tails have changed (and improved) dramatically since then.

[Mermaid Clara]

On land it would be, but since silicone is naturally buoyant in the water
Silicone is neutrally buoyant so it doesn't sink or float

[Mermaid_Izzy]

Fiberglass does not shatter, it actually bends. Fiberglass has a very tough breaking point though. It is the material used in almost every professional monofin (the competitor for instance)

Yeah...I realize that now...lol...sorry bout that...I was thinking of fiberglass in the state used to make molds...


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[Merman Alex]

uhhh i dont want to scratch your dreams or anything like that, but making silicone extended tails is much more dificult than what you think. First, you have to make a mold of your legs and the extension (for having a hollow space to put the mechanism or the fins or whatever you put and the foam) and put neoprene all around perfectly sewed likea glove, if not, the tail waill have super unnatural shape. Then, you have to put silicone foam (or whatever foam you use, but it has to be flexible, waterproof, not heavy, and not really buoyant, if not you will have to use weight belts, and add more water resistance and swiming dificulty) when the foam is added, it will probalblyhave some strange shape and texture, so you will have to make another layer of neoprene, or just pust silicone to fill the gaps, but will add lots of weight, your choice. Then, you have 3 viable options for the scales, use clear glass scales and atach them wih silicone (the scales can be cuted clear plastic nail tips), sculpt them directly on the silicone, or make a mold and a scale sheet, add another layer of silicone and use the sheet to make the scales. Then, THE PAIN JOB, the apocalipsis, you really cant just paint it because the paint will fall instantly when it touches water. You can pre color the last layer of silicone (the scales one) and put different colorations, or paint the neoprene below and use a transparent silicone. That will give it a shiny look. Or you can jut mix some paint with silicone for it not to fall instantly cross your fingers and make the phtot shoot fastly. Finally, the fluke. i would recomend just using a pre buyed monofin and cut it to get the shape you want, but if you want a really floppy one; you can use silicone, aplaying it onto a vinil plank and painting the shape you want 2 times, then put it together. You can build the fin the same way. For ataching the fins you might sew them a large piece of something and the cut your tail in the place that you want them, put the large piece of something in the cut sew and cut the rest. paint the fins and fluke and you are ready. Its difficult though i wiwsh you luck and hope i helped!!!!