Suggestion for avoiding review drama

[AniaR]

I received a very polite, well thought out email from Eric with a suggestion I'd like you all to consider. I've added my own points too.

Now, before you screech on the breaks and say "whoaa Nelly" please read the ENTIRE suggestion.

What if, threads for reviews, were only the individual review of the individual customer and no community replies. Just a thread detailing that person's review, that they could still *edit* if they needed to add something later (e.g. tail maker A gave me free _____ tail maker B followed up with me etc.)

Now, I understand many of you may be jumping to the ahhh free speech Eric wants to censor us! But hear me out. We'd still be free to talk about issues, concerns, voice our opinions- in appropriate threads. That way no one is high jacking someone's review to go all crazy with their own issues, whether the review is negative or not. We have several other areas of the site where we could discuss those things, without having it look like 10 people who have never bought a tail from a tail maker are giving a bad review.

I honestly think this is a reasonable suggestion. If it bothers you that Eric made it, pretend he didn't. Pretend I did. Does that change the context for you at all? Someone recently said something smart to me, when there's a good idea it shouldn't matter who it came from. If it's good you get behind it.

I think this would make the reviewing process more legit also. That way when future customers are looking up reviews they see reviews the same way they are posted in real life with other things. When you read a review in the paper it's not followed with a bunch of people yaying or naying. It would also fit in well with the rating system being developed. I also think Eric is making a responsible suggestion, he's not asking us to delete current reviews, he's not petitioning to have them taken down, he's not going on a rant about people being jerks, and he's not saying "dont ever write about me on here for any reason ever!".

I really do believe, that on BOTH sides of the maker/wearer world, this would be a FAIR compromise. No one is being stopped from saying what they think in an appropriate way, but I think it adds another step. People can't just respond to the review with AGRHGSAJHFJH!!!#$^ !!! lol :P they have to actually think about how their going to put this into a thread that voices their issues/concerns without hijacking someone's review.

Eric didn't suggest this, but I also agree with Sirena that it would be better if we imposed a "dont post a review til you've received your tail" rule. No offence to anyone who has done this. If you want to go to an appropriate part of the site and complain about that damn wait we all go through (and god knows, I check the mail box like a crazy person when Im expecting a tail) then totally go for it. But wait until you actually get your tail and try it out before reviewing.

What do people think of this idea? Do you think it will prevent/manage drama while still allowing freedom of expression and keeping reviews in context? If we decide to do this (perhaps I can set up a poll and everyone can vote?) I dont believe regular members have the ability to lock a thread or disable replies. Admins may need to see if that's possible. But if we do agree on this, I suggest at the very least, locking some of the more dramatic threads/reviews and directing people to "how to write a review" where we can include this new (if we approve it) rule. We may want to consider actually deleting some of the nasty name calling back and forth messages on both end, but I know regular members can't delete posts so we can leave that with the mods. (also something we could vote on)

Finally I just want to say something personally,
I get as mad as everyone else about certain things. I have my own chips in my shoulders, I am less than polite or kind in my threads, and I lose my cool too. I don't want people to think I am flip-flopping between sides. I feel like there is only one side, the side of the community. SO I try to conduct myself in ways that are best for the community. I'm not a mod, I don't think I'm "all that" and you should follow my command or anything either. I, like Sirena, and many others, just get exhausted of the side pulling and drama. I'd like to see us work this issue out. If you don't agree with this suggestion, I implore you COME UP WITH ANOTHER ONE that will benefit ALL parties. From my perspective, this is a good step in the right direction for Eric when it comes to being part of the community. I do not see this as "oh he's turning over a new leaf see how long that lasts", so much as he is trying to grow and change. As Sirena reminded me, change doesn't happen over night.

Thoughts?

[Mermaid Sirena]

I vote yes to all of it. For the star system it would be nice if we could rate them for different things like:

Overal total ...........(4/5) (this would be an automatically generated based on the selected sections bellow)
Ordering Process ...(4/5)
Communication ....(4/5)
Flexibility ................(4/5)
Final Product .........(4/5)
Follow Up ..............(4/5) (If something wasn't correct when received their willingness to work with and fix or change, maybe have 0 stand for not available.)

[AniaR]

For the star thing I know Mal hasnt finished tweaking it

I do have a template for writing a review too :) http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?85-How-to-write-a-review


(http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?85-How-to-write-a-review)

[Mermaid Lorelei]

I just have to say that I'm completely head over heels in love with all of this. I've personally tried to keep my nose out of as much of the drama as I could, but that doesn't mean I didn't see it all over the place. This would make the drama a WHOLE LOT easier to avoid, which I know would make me happier on the forum. And I can't even begin to say how much I like the idea of locked reviews, no comments allowed at all. That idea would not only get rid of automatic drama, but, like you said, it would make the entire community look so much more professional.
Good job! I like it all!

[koiboi]

I would whole-heartedly agree to this rule, i put in my two cents in a previous review and in hindsight i should've just kept to myself as i havent received a tail from any tail maker and it really wasnt my place. I think it would avoid drama entirely if all reviews were just honest descriptions of what transpires between the client and tailmaker without ranting or ragging on said tailmaker.

[Mermaid Star]

I am not sure how I feel about this... Yes it would keep the drama down in the review section... But the drama would just move else where. If we were all adults, we wouldn't need this rule... but I understand that we can all let our big girl and boy panties fall every now and then. I am on the fence.

As for waiting until you get your tail to write a review. What happens if you never receive your tail? How long do you wait until you write a review saying so. If it is an exceedingly long wait, I think perspective buyers would definitely want to know about this. For this reason I think it should still be allowed in the review section.

This is just my two cents though and again, I am still on the fence... I think I am sleepy and rambling. LOL

[Sirenade]

I like the idea of individual posts with reviews for each individual tail, with no one making comments to reply (like Yelp reviews).

[AniaR]

I am not sure how I feel about this... Yes it would keep the drama down in the review section... But the drama would just move else where. If we were all adults, we wouldn't need this rule... but I understand that we can all let our big girl and boy panties fall every now and then. I am on the fence.

Well, I think drama still serves a purpose to a degree, stuff does need to be called out, but I dont think it's fair for everyone to piggy back it on a review. So this isn't a no drama on the site rule, a reviews are for reviews rule. I agree with Maligni that people do need to be able to say what they need to say.


As for waiting until you get your tail to write a review. What happens if you never receive your tail? How long do you wait until you write a review saying so. If it is an exceedingly long wait, I think perspective buyers would definitely want to know about this. For this reason I think it should still be allowed in the review section.
Well, you really cant review something you havent received, but that doesnt mean you cant post somewhere about it.

It's kinda my feeling that commercial tail related anything that's not a review can go in that forum "commercial related" so if you still dont have your tail, post about it there maybe? Then when you do get it make sure you write about it in your actual review?

[Anita Mermaid]

That's totally what I was talking about with Malinghi earlier today. The no comment reply things I mean. I didn't read the rest of it yet. But yeah! He's down!

[malinghi]

That's totally what I was talking about with Malinghi earlier today. The no comment reply things I mean. I didn't read the rest of it yet. But yeah! He's down!

Yeah, we literally were talking about this a couple hours ago. Basically what I was thinking was that because I'm very reluctant to take away anyone's ability to post, I could just identify drama better for people who want to avoid it (or the trolls who are attracted to it). For example, for any thread that turns into a big angry mess I could just add [WARNING: CONTAINS DRAMA] to the thread title, or there could be a forum called the troll space that it would get moved to. The goal would be to help people steer clear of it if they want to.

The second part of the idea, which is especially similar to what was being discussed above, is that having someone post a review of a tail only to have the thread get flagged as a drama thread is unfair to whoever started the thread with a fair and innocuous review. To prevent review threads from being turned into drama threads, I was thinking review thread wouldn't allow comments.

On the subject of reviewing each aspect of the tailmaking experience or having a form the fill out... that's a good idea, but I'm limited in what I can make. I'll look into the setting and see if I can implement some kind of form, but I don't know what's possible. No guarantees.

Also, on the subject of dealing with drama I want to point out that you can report posts you don't like, and you can rate threads, which are both excellent ways to communicate to the admins when you see something you think is drama.

[Anita Mermaid]

That iiiity bitty triangle in the bottom left there of each post is the Report Post button. But I have no idea how to rate threads. I wish we could rate posts. But thats just me missing reddit.

[Spindrift]

I don't think there is necessarily anything -wrong- about having drama. This is a community and communities have that. Yes, it's a problem when it gets in the way of actual reviews and work and all that, and it is extremely annoying, but it does seem to be a part of human nature. I like the ideas that support just moving "drama sections" to a different part of the forum where people who want to be involved in drama can do their stuff there and the people who are above the drama don't have to have the forums ruined for them.

Maturity is a big deal when aspiring to look professional. Even if you're defending someone because you love or care for them, or just upholding your values, there is a chance that you're just making them (and yourself) look worse because their/your acts are associated with someone so immature.

[SweeteSiren]

That iiiity bitty triangle in the bottom left there of each post is the Report Post button. But I have no idea how to rate threads. I wish we could rate posts. But thats just me missing reddit.

There is a series of 5 button at the top of each thread page; the fourth one is the "Rate This Thread" button.

[SireniaSolaris]

My thoughts on this:

I agree that only a person making the review should post on it. There isn't really anything else anyone should have to add as it is not their review.

I disagree that a post should only be made after receiving a tail. It's not just a review of the final product, it's a review of the entire experience. Someone might get a great tail in the end, but I'd like to be aware if I'm going to have to wait for 2 years with no communication, etc. (just making an example here).

Then, IF people want to turn a particular review into a full on conversation, they should be able to do that elsewhere, no intruding on someones personal review of a tail he or she ordered and is sharing his or her own, personal experience with.

Those are my thoughts.

[Alveric]

Sounds good to me. Every community I've ever been involved with: reenacting, Society for Creative Anachronism, Cowboy Action Shooting, partisan politics, even church, they all have drama (only in politics is it accepted as normal :)). I've always tried to avoid it but, like a train-wreck, it catches one's attention. Just remember, our community isn't bad, it's just made up of humans (Mers are not immune).

Alveric2

[AniaR]

I disagree that a post should only be made after receiving a tail. It's not just a review of the final product, it's a review of the entire experience.

I guess that's exactly worded right there why I think a REVIEW only works when you've got a tail. No ones suggesting we wait 6 months and never say a word, but if my camera never comes or is delayed, I can't write a review about the camera I don't have. A review implies owning something and using it, and yes, part of that is customer service but we seem to have turned reviews completely into customer service. I guarantee you we all buy things *cough* (cell phones) *cough* where the customer service is crap and yet we still would give our products a review.

I think, if you're waiting forever for a tail, go into the commercial tail forum and make a post about it! It seems to me more appropriate, and you're still saying the tail makers name, you're still posting it publicly, you're still inviting people to talk, you're doing all the same things except reviewing which you really cant review because you dont have anything to review. I think it's even better, because if we agree that reviews will be closed without replies, then you post about your late tail and that's it! A lot of people do NOT follow up either once it's been received or ordered, they disappear from the forum. Then your 'review' looks like you never got something.

I think it's important we still talk about it, if someone didn't, adaym martyn would have never been caught. But I personally think reviews are a review. If your tail took forever put that in there, but I think it should be a final piece, in context, that makes sense. Otherwise you've got a partial review.

I am not saying this because of Eric, Im speaking from personal experience. My very first tail (stretch vinyl) took FOREVER to arrive. I wasnt on the forums back then. I emailed and emailed and never got a response. I coulda jumped ahead and written something nasty but thank God I didnt. The tail maker DIED. My tail was one of the LAST tails the company ever made. All of this was explained to me, I was refunded my shipping, and the tail was sent and I have given it nothing but a good review.

My new tail that is coming from a mystery maker was seriously delayed for a LOT of reasons. I vented to a few people in confidence, but never posted a partial review. I'm waiting til I actually get the thing, because I freaking guarantee you it will be a million times over worth the wait. The thing is perfect and immaculate from the progress updates and pics I've been getting. But I went a fair bit of time hearing no word from the maker who had legit reasons.

I just think in these two cases, it would look really bad on the makers had I made 'reviews' that basically vented Id been waiting forever for my tails. Other people would see these and judge them without any context. Mermagica was seriously delayed before the WMA because of an actual monofin shortage! o_O

That's not to say that we don't call makers out on their crap when they take way too long. I just think you start by posting about it somewhere else, where people can talk with you, give you ideas, let you vent, and maybe even help. Then you add it in your review when you get the thing. That's how I envision it.

AT the end of the day, I think BOTH of these things are something the community will need to VOTE on. I wanted to give this thread and the other thread a couple more days for people to read and comment. Then we can set up two polls, one for having reviews closed, one for waiting til you get a tail to review. I just want people to remember if we do choose these things IT DOES NOT MEAN YOU DO NOT GET TO SAY WHAT YOU NEED OR WANT TO SAY.

[Mermaid Lorelei]

I agree. A review isn't a review if you don't actually have the piece.
Do remember what a review is: Review; imply careful examination of something, formulation of a judgment, and statement of the judgment, usually in written form.
Sure, you can make a judgement based on the amount of time you are stuck waiting for your tail, but it's not a complete examination of the entire situation. I think that stating your aggravation about waiting for longer than expected is perfectly reasonable. I don't think it's a review.

[OrcaMatt]

I honestly think this is a reasonable suggestion. If it bothers you that Eric made it, pretend he didn't. Pretend I did. Does that change the context for you at all? Someone recently said something smart to me, when there's a good idea it shouldn't matter who it came from. If it's good you get behind it.It does bother me that he made it, because he's making the suggestion for him, not for us. In fairness there may have been context in the message we're not getting, but I doubt it started 'I'm worried about you guys and want you to be happy!' Eric doesn't care about our problems or about the smooth and orderly running of the forum; it's just Mertailor, Inc finally having a moment of public relations lucidity (see also: Passing off the tail repair retort as an oopsie in public while acknowledging it was a bad idea in private). Probably be just as happy to let The Drama eat us and the place implode and that'd be the end of it.

The crossover between 'Eric's fan base' and 'here' is probably pretty minimal right now, not because we generally don't like him, but because his fan base doesn't seem to be part of the 'active' mer-community per se, but that's likely to change over time (not to mention as our PageRank score for relevant searches improves), so it makes sense to start damage control before it gets out of hand, since these threads tend to resurrect old quality or business problems and move their scope far beyond the original, likely buried by time, context. So sure, if we limit peoples opportunity (not ability, in this case) to remind the world that "somebody once got a tail with a needle embedded in it' or 'remember when a tail got painted blue, then green, when it was supposed to be KOI PATTERNED?? Honestly how do you even do that?' it's better, in the long run, for Mertailor, Inc.

That doesn't mean it's a bad idea, though.

What's happened the last thread or two simply isn't productive or conducive to a healthy community. I still like to think of 'here' as 'the mermaids and merman costuming forum', even if it's kind of not any more, and either way it's not 'the bash on The Mertailor Club', even if God help me it's fun sometimes, and occasionally warranted :P

--Orca Matt: Discerning Ulterior Motives Since 1994

[OrcaMatt]

Another part of getting a tail and making a review is allowing the community to see your pretty tail and to let them Ooo and Ahhh over it. It feels good to get complements on your tail and more often than not, you will get those on a review rather than just an individual thread with your pretty picture in it. Reviews simply get more traffic.That's only because of the way the site is arranged now. In theory once people get used to the new chat-free review configuration, they'll know to go look for another thread to discuss the tail itself once they've seen the review is posted, if that's where they tend to become aware of new tails first. It'll sort itself out in time.

[AniaR]

yeah we do usually have a "show me your tail" thread

[OrcaMatt]

It does bother me that he made it, because he's making the suggestion for him, not for us.Also, and I've noted this since way back in Mer.Yuku: "Mertailor Thread" tended to turn into "[some other tail maker] is way better thread" (on Yuku Mertailor threads almost always turned into MVD threads). That's gotta be annoying to watch.

[AniaR]

Started a poll for closing reviews to comments: http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?1305-Poll-Should-Reviews-Be-COMMENTS-CLOSED

Started a poll for reviewing tails: http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?1306-Poll-Should-we-wait-til-we-recieve-a-tail-to-post-a-review

[AniaR]

something I thought about today, what about having a complaints forum? It doesn't have to be specifically for tails, but anything in the mermaiding world in general. A place where people can let off steam or even vent about stuff?

[Mermaid Lorelei]

I see that sort of thread turning into a drama llama section, but it might actually be a good idea to have a section like that. Not sure.

[Mermaid Sirena]

Interesting thought

[Mermaid Photine]

I think that a complaint form would be good, should the complaint forum exist, in hopes to combat some of the drama llama-ish-ness.

[OrcaMatt]

It might be a good idea to sequester the dramaderies in their own section, so they can be observed, studied, and indeed enjoyed in a safe, controlled setting. Like in Jurassic Park!

[AniaR]

hehe, well it's sorta like Mal suggested. if you go in there you do so at your own risk?

[merpirate]

The drama Llama thread idea was tried already once, in a way, a place where people could debate the thoughts they had, it worked to a point I think. I honestly think perhaps we should have two reviews groups, one would be a company review. where the service, response time and overall attitude of the tail makers is reviewed, and a product review group, where you talk about your tail, how cit fits, anf defects and flaws and how it swims. Think about it, you could have a great customer service style be helpful and polite, respond to every message within eight hours, and none of it would change the fact the tail was crap,

[Mermaid Sirena]

I would want to see both review types in the same review in one place, but I like the idea of one that is a solid stagnate review and the other being a place to talk and discuss or just blow off steam.

[AniaR]

so it looks as though according to this poll (http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?1306-Poll-Should-we-wait-til-we-recieve-a-tail-to-post-a-review) and this poll here (http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?1305-Poll-Should-Reviews-Be-COMMENTS-CLOSED)

That members voted to close review comments, and have them only be posted when you receive a tail. That being said, anyone can still post about any topic that relates to those things in the appropriate threads.

[SweeteSiren]

It might be a good idea to sequester the dramaderies in their own section, so they can be observed, studied, and indeed enjoyed in a safe, controlled setting. Like in Jurassic Park!
Hee hee. You should trademark that word!