Combining thicknesses of silicone, types of pigments, questions galore!

[Mermatron Athena]

I am planning a silicone tail and have obsessively searched the threads, but haven't found any that discuss what I have in mind.

1) What I am wanting to do is build my fins and flukes in parts, and then piece it together. I would like defined harder spines, with a more flexible membrane.So, what I'm envisioning is to cast the spines, cast the membranes, and then bond them together sandwich style.

Has anyone done this method before? Crazy? Crazy enough to work?

2) I'm kinda obsessed with chameleon pigments. Has anyone used automotive ones? Like on paintwithpearl.com? I would encapsulate the whole tail, so there wouldn't be any risk of them not being skin and environmentally safe like micas. If chameleon pigments won't work, I am thinking my next options would be tons of silver and gold holographic glitter.

3) Is Van Aken really the best to use for plaster molds? If there's a better clay I'd love to know. I don't want to sacrifice quality for cost. for the fin membrane, I plan to melt the clay and pour it into a puddle for uniform thinness of clay in a large sheet, and then sculpt it from there.

4) Is there a specific type of mold release that works the best for this clay, with plaster molds, and Dragon Skin?

5) I'm going to be making a clear acrylic monofin with gasket rubber or neoprene foot holds. I have a Mahina, but would like more rigidity for speed as I plan on having tons of extra fins and theoretically that isn't ideal for drag force.

The way that I'm imagining to build the monofin with the gasket rubber or neoprene sandwiched into it would be to drill through the layers, and then push acrylic rods through and bond them in, then slice them down and sand it smooth. Would this method work better with neoprene or gasket rubber?

6) I'd also like to make some webbed fingers, and was thinking I could do this by casting ridged silicone rings molded to look like jewels, and then using the same method as the spines and membranes to web them on the palm side of my hands. Each finger would have 2 rings, and the membrane would span the distance between them. I think these are where Im going to start off my product tests, as they are small. Should they work, they would be a good way to make use of extra silicone from castings.

Holes in my theoretical tail plan? I kinda feel like Im trying to reinvent the wheel and it's either going to be amazing, or an amazing flop!

[Mermaid Wesley]

Several things ok ok. I'm on mobile so bear with me. Ahem.

1. It could work. It might be more effort than it is worth, but that's up to you. It might end up messy and it might not make much of a difference in the end product. I don't think anyone has really done that.
2. I think chameleon pigments would work fine. I've been wanting to make a top with chameleon pigments. If you do holo glitter would you do the superfine dust because I really wanna do that <3

3. Idk about plaster. I know monster clay melts, but it's a very hard clay.

4. You don't need a mold release with dragonskin. It will not stick to your mold.

5. Do not do not use acrylic. It will snap and is very sharp when broken. Use polycarbonate.

6. That's a cool idea! I don't know how hard you can get silicone though. Dragonskin only comes up to shore 30 I think and though silicone can have very hard shore strength I don't know where you would buy it.

I think this could be very cool! If you want to go 50/50 on any weird pigments I would be down because I do want to test shifting and holographic pigments.


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[Mermatron Athena]

I want to base my design on this guy
36629

[Mermatron Athena]

Here's some of the colors I really like

https://www.paintwithpearl.com/shop/chameleon-paint/starry-night-teal-blue-purple-chameleon-paint/

https://www.paintwithpearl.com/shop/chameleon-paint/blue-to-purple-chameleon-paint-pearls-4779bp/


https://www.paintwithpearl.com/shop/metal-flakes/holographic-flakes-prism-flakes/holographic-pearl-pigment/


https://www.paintwithpearl.com/shop/interference-iridescent-ghost-pearls-pigments/blue-crystal-ghost-pearl/

[Mermatron Athena]

In theory these pigments seem like they would be cool, but I don't know? You can see through them, like dying the silicone verses making it opaque. Some areas I'd really like a sea through look, like betas and other finely finned fish have.
They are pretty cheap so could be a fun experiment.

https://www.paintwithpearl.com/shop-custom-paint/candy-concentrates/

[Mermatron Athena]

After reading through many threads, I have seen tons of issues with bubbles, but no one doing the method I learned for pouring without bubbles. You hold the cup up really high and pour a fine stream of whatever pourable medium is desired (be it cookie icing or silicone) and in pouring the very thin stream the bubbles break and aren't an issue in the mold.

A trick to doing this without killing ones arm, or accidently pouring too thick is to take your poring device and make a hole at the bottom of it, cover that hole with tape to seal it, then fix that pouring device on the edge of a table, put the mold under the table, and then unplug the hole and let the medium pour into it.

When I get going on this tail this is the method I will be using and hope to share photos :)

[Mermatron Athena]

As for pigments, I'm going to see what the highly reflective glass beads that are used on reflective safety gear work in silicone. I haven't seen them used before, but they seem like they could work! I still plan to be using the color morph pigments :)

There's a brick front store in San Fransisco I plan to go to, Douglass and Sturgess, http://www.douglasandsturgess.com/
They sell Dragon Skin, sulphur free clay, and the reflective glass beads. Hopefully they can provide some info on if these will work in my tail.

Tomorrow will ill be a trip to Tap Plastics to get the urethane for the mold (Like Theobromine's shared about using, thanks Theo!)

[Mermaid Alaria]

Following... And I love your idea for the finger webbing!

[Mermaid Machhalee]

This has all been so interesting! Thanks for the inspiration!

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[PearlieMae]

Sorry to let you know, but those glass beads lose their effect when encapsulated in silicone, and they manage to work their way out of the silicone, leaving the surface pitted, fuzzy, and lots of tiny places to hold water (and potentially grow mold).

[Merman Lir]

I want to base my design on this guy
36629

beautiful inspiration fish!

[Mermatron Athena]

Sorry to let you know, but those glass beads lose their effect when encapsulated in silicone, and they manage to work their way out of the silicone, leaving the surface pitted, fuzzy, and lots of tiny places to hold water (and potentially grow mold).

BUMMER!
Well, there's always the chameleon pigment. That should be fun!

[Mermatron Athena]

I have most of my materials, and my Rapid monofin came! I need better clay tools because the ones I got on Amazon were comicallay pathetic. Which I can get at a craft store this weekend

Dragon Skin will be purchased this weekend for my Mother's Day gift from my kiddos and hubby.

I have a design meeting scheduled with my graphic artist friend whom I'm collaborating with. He's helping me with the rest of the project too.

My husband will be making my lower body cast tomorrow. We have made an upper body cast, so now I have a full body cast. That's going to be hilarious looking hanging in the closet.

I have been given the lower deck of my cousins place to set up shop. Which I have to postpone until this weird El Niño thing stops. El Niño has brought in Portuguese Man of War in to the San Fransisco area beaches this year which is totally weird!

I think I have all my ducks in a row...

[Mermatron Athena]

Forgot a duck.
pigments. Need to order those!

[Mermaid Alea]

I just read this thread and I am excited to see your experiments with chameleon pigments and/or holographic glitter.

So far I have seen a few tails by two different tailmakers that have an iridescent look.
There is this one by FlipTails:
https://www.facebook.com/fliptails/photos/a.267267049976759.56916.184952671541531/995576803812443/?type=3&theater
- Mike says he used 36 airbrush coats and 16 different colors to get this effect.

Then there are these by Creation Sirene:
1. https://www.facebook.com/AuroreLaSireneBleu/photos/a.471210409575420.124612.471209126242215/1267006976662422/?type=3&theater
2. https://www.facebook.com/AuroreLaSireneBleu/videos/vb.471209126242215/1237663776263409/?type=2&theater & https://www.facebook.com/AuroreLaSireneBleu/photos/a.471210409575420.124612.471209126242215/1234380809925039/?type=3&theater

- All she says is she is using iridescent paint.

I love the idea of a tail that changes color when looked at in different angles. :)

[PearlieMae]

Aysun's tail should be included in this list.

As well as my own.

[Mermatron Athena]

I just read this thread and I am excited to see your experiments with chameleon pigments and/or holographic glitter.

So far I have seen a few tails by two different tailmakers that have an iridescent look.
There is this one by FlipTails:
https://www.facebook.com/fliptails/photos/a.267267049976759.56916.184952671541531/995576803812443/?type=3&theater
- Mike says he used 36 airbrush coats and 16 different colors to get this effect.

Then there are these by Creation Sirene:
1. https://www.facebook.com/AuroreLaSireneBleu/photos/a.471210409575420.124612.471209126242215/1267006976662422/?type=3&theater
2. https://www.facebook.com/AuroreLaSireneBleu/videos/vb.471209126242215/1237663776263409/?type=2&theater & https://www.facebook.com/AuroreLaSireneBleu/photos/a.471210409575420.124612.471209126242215/1234380809925039/?type=3&theater

- All she says is she is using iridescent paint.

I love the idea of a tail that changes color when looked at in different angles. :)

Holy Sea Cow! Thirty Six coats of paint is an insane amount!

I plan to do some test scales. Some tinted dark then painted chameleon, some painted black then painted chameleon' and some with a pigment coating brushed into the mold before pouring, and various combinations there after.

After painting does one seal it all in with an extra coat of silicone, or just leave the paint as the final coating?

[Mermatron Athena]

PearlieMae your tail is stunning!

[Mermatron Athena]

36750

I did a cellophane body double, ankles to armpits! It's much less accurate than my duct tape dress form, but it was quicker and cheaper. My waist measurement is 4" larger than reality, but I think I can go back over it with more tape and cinch it in where needed. If that doesn't work I will try cutting it to size it down. I really don't want to do the whole thing over in duct tape. Being mummified is in direct conflict with my claustrophobia LOL

[PearlieMae]

You can cut into it and overlap (dart) it, and just layer more tape to take it in.I alter mine all the time!

[Mermatron Athena]

That's a great idea :)
I took a lazy stuffing method of using alpaca fleeces that I have yet to clean...
I'm a fiber artist and process raw animal fiber into finished yarns. Needing stuffing, I just grabbed a few bags of fiber and stuffed away. It's a great stuffing, just kinda dusty when unsealed lol

[Mermatron Athena]

I have have been thinking of what a betta fish mermaid would wear for a top, and I think Lilly pads of different sizes, all put together on a bra top. I started sculpting a lily pad, but it's too tiny for the main pad. I need full coverage, as I'm more on the busty side. I'm going to have to start over but at least I have an idea of where I'm going with it.


36759

[Mermatron Athena]

I went and got my Dragon Skin! I'm so excited to have nearly all my pieces.

I got this stuff to mix in with it to thicken it so I can brush it on a 3-D mold (like corrugated plastic siding) to get a very ruffled look to my fins. I can't remember the name of the stuff though.
I also traded in my urethane mold material for brush on latex because I just don't have the room to store a 25 pound fluke mold lol


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[Mermaid Alaria]

I went and got my Dragon Skin! I'm so excited to have nearly all my pieces.

I got this stuff to mix in with it to thicken it so I can brush it on a 3-D mold (like corrugated plastic siding) to get a very ruffled look to my fins. I can't remember the name of the stuff though.
I also traded in my urethane mold material for brush on latex because I just don't have the room to store a 25 pound fluke mold lol



Wait, latex and silicone? This is on the same project? o_o

[Mermaid Kate Silverfin]

Unfortunately Dragonskin silicone (or any platinum cure silicone for that matter) will not cure against latex. You even need to avoid latex gloves to prevent cure inhibition!

[Mermaid Whisper]

I think the latex is for the mold, which is definitely a time when you don't want them to cure against each other!


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[Mermaid Kate Silverfin]

No I mean as in the silicone won't cure at all! It will remain a mushy mess if it comes into contact with latex.

[Mermatron Athena]

Well shoot! The folks at TAP plastic assured me it would be okay :(


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[Mermatron Athena]

Guess I better go back and use get the urethane. I'm sure glad I checked in before I started! I have my scale sheet all ready to go, had to stop to cook the family dinner.
You guys saved me :)
Merheros


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[Mermatron Athena]

My betta fish, Finn, died :(
He wedged himself in between the glass and a hiding spot and got stuck there overnight.
Since he was dead, I took some of his scales out to check the shape, and then I formed my scales after his.
When I get toward sculpting the fins and fluke, I will also make graduated sizes of the scales. I wanted a very pronounced scale look, similar to the betta scales. http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160510/4e6d428b86ab7b3ed6cd436c4483b67f.jpg


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[Mermatron Athena]

I used this product pictured below that the store I bought the Dragon Skin at sells. No cure inhibition. When I pulled this star, it was shiny and set really well, (but I messed it up by touching it after I cleaned up the products a bit)


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[Mermatron Athena]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160511/5e4b6b6beb8d788b71ae5373a06b7f41.jpg


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[Mermatron Athena]

I pulled a decorative piece for my top, and painted with a copper/gold mica I mixed and it's a perfect rose gold color. I put my wedding ring in the fish for comparison. The black silicone really gives a great base tone.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160511/c627e7c003393e52e8e8d0400fd9313b.jpg


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[Mermatron Athena]

I pulled my first scales too early and they were sticky but set over night. I'm going to paint the scales individually before assembling the tail. They are kinda rough, but it was my first try :)

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160511/7505919e075828a987168f2c2321c662.jpg




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[Mermaid Lieke]

Your scales look great! Cant' wait to see how the rest of the tail will evolve!

[Mermatron Athena]

Thank you Lagoon Lily :)


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[Mermatron Athena]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160515/2ace9a3ccd6735b528757a7ceabfe77c.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160515/316beb8cb351d9d67e7717cc0c8fd259.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160515/da3d3b58f884fb014257f62f548b8181.jpg

I got my pigments today! Yay!!!!!
I luuuuuvvvvvv the chameleon pigments!
Kinda freaking out happy!


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[Mermatron Athena]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160515/3958299ebd28cc1ac93da9bdaa78de96.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160515/a1876bb37885bcc41f60a63da5b93d97.jpg

Galaxy (or labradorite) scales!
It's not what I had in my mind for the design, but it does look pretty awesome. Pictures don't do it justice. After I give them a slime coat, I will take them to the pool and see how it looks underwater.


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[PearlieMae]

You have way too much pigment on there, your slime coat will peel off. The pigment acts as a release.

[Mermatron Athena]

I didn't do it as a real process test. More of an OMG my product is here and I'm slopping it on and looking at it as fast as possible test ;)
It's just pure pigment dusted on. Thick. Not even thinned silicone with pigment suspension. But I HAD to see the concentrated version... Like... Now...
And I know a small pot (which I sunk scales in) isn't a whole pool, but the way it initially performs underwater is superb. I love it. My silhouette is planned to be the blue/purple and fins outlining the side curves will be the red/gold/purple. That way I get a real color contrast for my figure. I work hard despite soooo much pain and disability and deserve to show it off :-D


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[Mermatron Athena]

Is there a way to change title of posts? I have kinda progressed past the title of my OP I think. Not that I'm not constantly questioning, and seriously valuing input... But this is a crumby name for a tail journey (yup I'm green!).

Thank you so much too PearlieMae! You're guidance has been very insightful and helpful! [emoji8] I'm humbled [emoji8]


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[PearlieMae]

Oh, I know that feeling of wanting to use the new stuff! I just wanted to let you know before you dove in and regretted it later.

I've been using those pigments a long time now, and they have their limitations, mostly because, on a car, the pigment lies flat on the surface due to the nature of the paint drying so thinly. Suspended in silicone, the refraction is more random and you dont get that perfect color shift. And if you dust it on, it'll make your topcoat peel off and you'll cry for days.

Just trying to help you avoid the mistakes I've made.

[Mermatron Athena]

What if I just dust the top of the scale, but coat the whole scale with silicone? That way the silicone can adhere to the back.


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[PearlieMae]

It's a real trial and error thing...but if you put too much on, the top will blister and peel off. I use it so sparingly because of that very problem. I'd love to be able to brag about the Colorshifting pigments being the centerpiece of my tails, but I still haven't hit upon that magic combination just yet.

And it's not just chameleon pigments, same thing happens with Pearl Ex.

[Mermatron Athena]

I'm determined! It's going to work. Somehow. I will find a way!
(Trying to convince myself lol)

[Mermatron Athena]

It's dark so it's hard to capture the shimmer. It looks pretty good though. I did a few different methods, and will water test them to see if any of the techniques work. I like the bottom 6 scales best, and I think that's the method that will have the best chance of working. I didn't color the silicone as black as I wanted it for these, so it's no loss if they don't work.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160516/42b5a6a706668a7481ae3bde5d7f72f0.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160516/8dbf41a1ef8d559ead4f927fdf3d8639.jpg


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[PearlieMae]

Nice!

[Mermatron Athena]

I made a total rookie mistake. Left the scales where the kids could reach. They moved them around and now I don't know which is which. For those 6 same ones, I tried different painting methods :(

I've been abusing them to see how it could fail. This is from missing a spot with the silicone topcoat. I also need to thin the silicone down more. Way too thick to brush right. Oh and my brushes are awful. They drop hairs everywhere! http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160516/b617c051792a0c081021d59978ed1b68.jpg


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[Mermatron Athena]

Well I kinda really screwed up that round. How can they not all fail when they have bald spots and brush hairs by the handful?
My stupid mistake of cheap tools are not worth it. I knew better.


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[Mermatron Athena]

One scale did pretty well, even with the bald spots lol
It's darker than I'd like, but it's pretty in the daylight. Or at least it was pretty in the daylight, I guess I will see tomorrow if it still is. I pulled and stretched it a ton, and took a nail file to it too.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160516/9e8a6107637098470365e8fdc9037fee.jpg


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[Theobromine]

On the topic of paintbrushes dropping hairs, I too had many bristly silicone woes until I figured out that it was the natural bristle brushes that were doing it, not the synthetic bristle brushes (I had bought a big variety pack at Michaels). Once I started only using the synthetic ones, I stopped having that problem. (I gave all the natural bristle brushes to my kitten and thus also got rid of the problem of her running off with all the ones I was using....we now have paintbrushes with her name on them scattered all over the house :P )

Painting techniques take a lot of trial and error to master, but I'd 100% recommend painting (with thinned pigmented silicone) over using dry pigments directly on the silicone. Any sort of surface contamination (be it oils or powders or hairs) will prevent additional silicone from adhering properly. It may not happen right away but that boundary layer created by the powder will eventually cause the top layer to peel up. Pigmented and thinned silicone (or psycho paint) can be used just like any other paint. It does take a bit of getting used to but the results are worth it, in my experience.

[LouLouBelle]

Those colours would make a gorgeous galactic inspired tail [emoji4]

Theo - I would love to see your kitten running of with the paintbrushes! She sounds like a cutie!

On the topic of brush hairs, it can help to gently tug at the bristles beforehand to pull out any really loose ones before you start.


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[Mermatron Athena]

I have been slacking on my tail work. I have this thing called Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome. I can't walk anymore. My ligaments and tendons surrounding my hip socket have pretty much melted and tear at every step. I'm getting used to my wheelchair enough to be able to kind of start back on the tail work again. I need a happy distraction from all the doctors appointments and stuff.

I have a friend who's making a scale decal for my wheel chair to jazz it it up a bit. Other friends joke I should just permanently attach the new tail as my prosthetic LOL. It would be a lot easier to keep smiling to be always in a tail since I have to be in a chair anyhow LOL.

I ordered the Naphtha online since its been pulled from the shelves in California. It's a super silly regulation since Amazon delivers it for free.

So anyway I did thin the silicone out and then painted it on with an oil painting knife or spatula. I tried the airbrush but I don't like how the color is so even. I like the irregularities from the knife method, it seems a bit more random and organic. I think it looks pretty good.


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[Mermatron Athena]

Whoops forgot to include the photohttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160526/e0e6ff5b300a32940eb9ad7bc0b876ae.jpg


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[PearlieMae]

:swoon:

[Mermatron Athena]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160527/08882196cbf54693a436fde37a26db46.jpg


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[Mermatron Athena]

Thanks Pearlie! I'm sooooo excited! The chameleon is really coming through!
*happy dance*


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[Mermatron Athena]

Those colours would make a gorgeous galactic inspired tail [emoji4]

Theo - I would love to see your kitten running of with the paintbrushes! She sounds like a cutie!

On the topic of brush hairs, it can help to gently tug at the bristles beforehand to pull out any really loose ones before you start.


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My kids were pushing for the Galaxy tail I think that would be super awesome. It needs glow in the dark stars too! My 11 year old says that's what she wants for her tail.
I will look for synthetic bristles! Thank you :) There are areas I want to brush, and now I will be able to :)



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[Mermatron Athena]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160530/7e160b2aa2cf949a409ba6afc3bafb72.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160530/9d6b1ec44d763b59bb8103284fd63b8b.jpg

It's coming along! The big scales are helping move it along faster. I've got a ton awaiting their color coat.



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[PearlieMae]

Nice! The coloring is breathtaking!

[Mermatron Athena]

Thanks Pearlie! :)


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[Dancing Fish]

Wow!! Amazingly beautiful colors!

[Mermatron Athena]

Wow!! Amazingly beautiful colors!


Thank you much Dancing Fish :)


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[Mermatron Athena]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160605/9aca190b68d6dfa4c219a35f5ceb8c70.jpg

I've been working on my fluke sculpt. It's coming along nice I think. It's far from done. This clay is a lot more tricky to work with than I expected!



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[Mermaid Keena]

gorgeous tail!

[Mermatron Athena]

Thanks!


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