Silicone caulking - Why do I never see anything about it?

[Moonflower]

So, why does everyone swear by Alex Plus latex when silicone caulking is so readily available?
Has anyone ever tried using it?
Is it because it doesn't stick to most things?
I'm really confused as to why I haven't seen anything about it before, especially since it dries so much faster and color can be added to it.
Anyone ever tried it on a full tail or just dorsal or other decorative fins?

[AniaR]

That's how Shelly makes hers, you'd have to ask her I think she's the only one who's really tried it.

[Mermaid Star]

Yeah, That is what shelly makes hers out of... But all of the silicone caulking that i have seen says that it can not be painted. I have never worked with it before. Shelly is def. the person to talk to about this

[AniaR]

she paints the neoprene directly I believe, then puts the silicone over top.

[taom]

The trick with silicone caulking is to spread it all at once. Once cured, nothing will stick to it so you have a relatively small operating window. My very fist tail I attempted to create with silicone caulking but, not knowing that very important piece of information, ended up with a rough, ugly surface that tore and peeled where the caulk applied at different times met. Shelly is a caulking goddess and has mastered the art of silicone spreading.

[Winged Mermaid]

What they said! It's new territory and tricky to work with, so most people stick with what they know. I always advise swatch tests before making any large products with new materials to see how it will act while making and when done. Silicone caulking can't be painted and dries VERY fast. According to Shelly 3-4 hours is enough for a entire tail to dry, as apposed to ALEX which takes over 2 weeks. She does paint on the neoprene before applying the silicone. Only issues with this is that the texturing doesn't really show up if you're not close up, and and also I would worry about discoloring issues. Silicone and latex both discolor over time, which is why you don't really see clear silicone on any tails. Only ones I've seen are Shimmer's PAX Mermaid tails, and the silicone has turned brown at this point. That's what eventually happens. I don't know with silicone caulking as no one has ever owned a silicone caulk tail that long.
Apparently the fumes and chemicals on the GE Silicone she uses is pretty intense and can be dangerous. I'd worry about toxicity issues, personally, but not everyone does. She was the first one to make a tail with this material, so I'm not sure if it will degrade like ALEX does or not. ALEX tails are notorious for degrading, after all :/

[Moonflower]

Well, I think I'll try it for the dorsal and side fins I have in mind. Can't hurt, right? ^_^

[Selene]

Well, I think I'll try it for the dorsal and side fins I have in mind. Can't hurt, right? ^_^

Weeeellllll.... Non-toxic is not the same as skin-safe, so yes, it can hurt as you're looking at a tin based silicone. If for some reason the main tail was to be made out of skin safe platinium and the fluke or decorative fins were to to be made out of caulking, tin based and platinium silicones do not play well together at all - one will not cure if the other is present. So there are a lot of construction problems. That being said it is not impossible, but usually a huge headache.

Alexplus is popular because the mertailor started using it to make tails way back when. Some people are choosing to use it regardless.

My thoughts are always to save the caulking for the bathroom and look around for good prices on proper prosthetic and mold making silicones. Saving some $$ is not worth it in the end (to me personally anyway) when it comes to your health.

[Selene]

Sorry, it's getting late over here. - Also, with age, you will find that caulking will start to crumble or crack the soonest of all the silicones (oxytoxic<tin<additional/platinum). I think Iona sadly experienced the effect with one of her tails, although I believe it was a latex one (?).

[Winged Mermaid]

Yes, my tail is degrading. Raven's mertailor tails degraded, and her self made ALEX tail degraded and she couldn't use it anymore. (She stated herself that using that was only to test out the techniques before she made tails out out of proper slip casting latex.) Marla's gold tail degraded and was retired and now her orange/yellow one is going as well- she wears a belt to cover up the top area where it shows the most. Odette's tail is degrading as well. At least 5 others I've ran across talking about it on other places (like FB), names I can't recall, have this same problem.

I always mention that between health, pollution, and degradation, it's not worth using he cheap materials. They don't last and they're not healthy. All that time, money, and effort and they will break down. Raina proved it can effect your liver and kidneys, Raina and Shelly proved you can have a toxic reaction to it if you have contact with it uncured, even in the water. But people insist on using the materials anyway. I made obvious disclaimers in the Using ALEX thread (http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?553-Archive-quot-Using-ALEX-for-Tails-quot).

[OrcaMatt]

That's how Shelly makes hers, you'd have to ask her I think she's the only one who's really tried it.Sure about that?

Silicone caulk as I recall is almost as expensive as proper silicone in the quantities you'd need for a tail.

[Mermaid Saphira]

Shelly paints the neoprene first, then she adds the scales ;)

[Mermaid Jewel]

I've been planning to use Shelly's process so I've done some swatch tests with it. It has some pretty strong fumes (I'll need to wear a mask when I do the full thing!) but if you read the back, it clearly states it is toxic when it first comes out but once completely cured, it's completely non-toxic. I'm wearing gloves while handling the uncured stuff and planning to wear a mask (though if you don't stick your face too close to it, you won't smell it). I wear glasses while working with it.

It's about $6 for like a 10oz bottle, which, by judging, looks like it'll take about 15-20 for me, which makes $120. While it seems hefty price, it's easier to use and much more readily available. With paint and the on-sale neoprin I managed to snag and the netting, my tail will cost me about $200, which is okay with me. I know it won't be a lasting tail, but if it will last me at least 2 years, I think it's worth it. I don't swim nearly as much in my tail as say Raven does, also. I spent 8 hours working on my steampunk wings that never again have been worn, so the labor time matters little to me. I guess the circumstance will say if it's worth using this stuff or not, but it seems to be going well for Shelly.

I'd like to add, I chose not to use slip-casting latex though I know the process because my dad has a latex allergy and I didn't want to bring that into the house. Buying the silicone caulking is way cheaper than getting high-grade silicone.

[Mermaid Jewel]

Quick google brought me to this: http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/hypertufa/msg1217385422593.html

First part has some good tips! Looks as if you can mix acrylic paint into silicone caulking to not only color it but get it to dry all the way through :) wish I'd known this before using up a bottle and a half of paint...($10 a bottle too!!)

[Moonflower]

Quick google brought me to this: http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/hypertufa/msg1217385422593.html

First part has some good tips! Looks as if you can mix acrylic paint into silicone caulking to not only color it but get it to dry all the way through :) wish I'd known this before using up a bottle and a half of paint...($10 a bottle too!!)

That's what I thought too! That was what I was going to do to my dorsal fins!



Also, to everyone that commented on the toxicity of various substances - I get it! Caulkings of any kind are toxic before being cured, and Alex is still pretty bad afterwards, which is why I asked about silicone as opposed to latex. This was not a "How toxic is it" thread, it's a "Why do I never see people working with silicone caulking as opposed to Alex?" thread. Most people use Alex. It takes ages to dry and is pretty toxic but they do it anyway. I simply wanted to know if anyone had tried silicone and what their results were. Thank you.

[Mermaid Jewel]

Yeah, I'd like to say, I've been picking at dried silicone caulking (Pulling it off tables and boards and trying to test it by ripping it off the neoprin lol) and it's not doing anything cured. I touched it uncured by accident a few times and nothing happened either, so I suggest wearing gloves and washing your hands afterwards but no need to treat it like acid! (And I have super sensitive skin; diluted bleach made it turn angry red once)

[lasserine]

Yeah, I'd like to say, I've been picking at dried silicone caulking (Pulling it off tables and boards and trying to test it by ripping it off the neoprin lol) and it's not doing anything cured. I touched it uncured by accident a few times and nothing happened either, so I suggest wearing gloves and washing your hands afterwards but no need to treat it like acid! (And I have super sensitive skin; diluted bleach made it turn angry red once)

How sticky did it seem? Could you move 2 pieces on top of each other easy?

[taom]

It's a little sticky but it's not and instant bond or anything. It behaves exactly like ALEX. (btw, I've used silicone caulking on a tail. just saying so you know i'm not making things up or assuming i know stuff XDD)

Also, I'm really bad with safety precautions so when I used the stuff I didn't have a mask or gloves or anything. I'm not saying that is a good example to follow, I'm just sharing so that you all know that you don't have to worry all that much. The only real important thing is to have ventilation so I recommend applying it and allowing it to cure outside, if possible, and if not at least put it by a cracked window.

[Artisankatie]

As ALEX (and anything like it) are totally unavailable in Australia, all I've had available to me are opaque acrylics or clear silicone. I went for the silicone. It's a tin cure, so not hugely ideal, but it's easy to work with and relatively forgiving if you make a mistake. It cures a LOT faster than I've seen for ALEX users (forget keeping scale sheets on for 20 minutes, I made that mistake and my scales were ruined), you only need a few minutes for it to be cured enough to keep good shape, and it completely cures in a few hours. It's pretty tough, my tail has had a reasonable amount of abuse.
However, it's not so great if you have to do it a little bit at a time because it doesn't adhere to itself properly if applied at different stages of curing.
Clear silicone also turns yellow/brown if exposed to sunlight for a long time, which I found out from leaving it in the sun to cure. It's ok little bits at a time (especially if you're not in Australia because the UV is really high here) but you have to work with it and store it in the shade.
It's also insanely heavy, and it doesn't feel as nice as an ALEX tail (Happyguava/Mermaid Nerissa from my group has a Mertailor tail), and it's more expensive than ALEX (though nowhere near what platinum cure silicone costs).
Other than that, I haven't had any problems with it, it's just been a bit problematic with the yellowing and not adhering to itself when I've tried to add more here and there.

[Mermaid Jewel]

It's not adhering to itself? I know Shelly waits a day after her first coat to cure to add scales and it sticks, and it worked for me. I attacked it with my nails to trying to pull it off and it was doing fine.

[MermaidRaegan]

Jewel, are you using 100% silicone? I'm between getting clear silicone and tinting it with black acrylic and just getting black silicone; the black silicone says that it's 100% siliconized acrylic, and that puts me off. But it would make my job way easier.

[Kanti]

I suppose this isn't the best place to ask this but I may as well try anyway xD
The reason people said previously that silicone caulk isn't as easy: well I mean,
sometimes ALEX isn't paintable but aren't you just supposed to mix alex with water
and the paint you want then either brush it on or pass it through an airbrush?
Technically couldn't you do the same with the silicone caulk??
If not well they DO sell paintable silicone caulk, it's just more expensive.
Also how do you paint dragonskin? xD
I always thought you used that method

[Winged Mermaid]

I suppose this isn't the best place to ask this but I may as well try anyway xD
The reason people said previously that silicone caulk isn't as easy: well I mean,
sometimes ALEX isn't paintable but aren't you just supposed to mix alex with water
and the paint you want then either brush it on or pass it through an airbrush?
Technically couldn't you do the same with the silicone caulk??
If not well they DO sell paintable silicone caulk, it's just more expensive.
Also how do you paint dragonskin? xD
I always thought you used that method


I had people who said they tried painting the ALEX tails with the water and paint mixed and it ended up peeling off of the tail. I myself have tried to very lightly water down the pain for airbrushing and it started peeling as soon as it hit water. Thankfully I just did some detail in a small area so it didn't matter. It goes back to if you want to go for it, but PATCH TEST first- always!

I'd be interested about the paintable silicone caulk details.

Dragonskin I believe you make a batch of silicone then use specific tints for silicone and mix up cups of each color you want, and paint them on. Lots of layers and drying in between. I know Mike talks about lots of layers, including specifically metallic colored layers, and drying in between. It seems to take him a while to paint the tail, and I think that's the reason.

[Mermaid Lorelei]

With the little bit of dragonskin work I've done so far, you can airbrush onto dragonskin, but it has to be mixed with pyscho paint, which is made specifically for that job. I've heard rumors of other ways, but I've yet to test them. You can also use the method Iona mentioned, which is one method I've personally used. Another method is to tint the dragonskin before you even pour it, such as Star did with her latex. It's the same idea.

[Mermaasai]

Jewel, are you using 100% silicone? I'm between getting clear silicone and tinting it with black acrylic and just getting black silicone; the black silicone says that it's 100% siliconized acrylic, and that puts me off. But it would make my job way easier.

oOoOoO black silicone... I may have to look into that..
I've been thinking about trying a tail in silicone and if black silicone is available I might just have to give it a go..
I'm wary of mixing the clear silicone with black paint because its SO thick and hard to push around on fabric with out trapping a billion air bubbles.. the acrylic paint makes the silicone cure SO much faster too so it cuts your working time practically in half..
I have a tube of clear silicone at the moment that I've been meaning to do a swatch test with black and metallic paints.. I want to see if I mix the black acrylic and silicone and lay it, then quickly add touches of metallic BEFORE it dries, if it will retain the metallic paint through absorption or not..
I'll post up after I try it with my results..

[Kanti]

Ohh thanks Winged
I actually had airbrushed a mixed water/caulk/acrylic paint mixture on an orca tail but
I never did test it in the water. I would like to have some sort of help with painting tips
then o.O
Maybe you just have to let the caulk cure? not sure now o_O

As for psycho paint, do they have just a clear medium? I don't really like the colors psycho
paint comes in. Or at least the ones I've seen are pretty bright. I like natural, dull colors xD

[Mermaid Lorelei]

The pyscho paint base is actually clear. You mix colors into it. In my personal opinion, pyscho paint is actually just a smaller bottle version of dragonskin. And I'm not the only one to think so. XD I think the only difference people have found between the two is that pyscho paint is just a tad runnier (for ease of airbrushing). You could always just add a touch of thinner to dragonskin though and get the exact same results, only cheaper.

[Kanti]

Yea that's what I would think.
How do you get dragonskin thinner o_O

[MermaidRaegan]

I'll be excited to see what your swatch tests turn up Mermaasai! You're the only other person I know who's planning a black tail, so if I play around with the black 'silicone' then I'll be sure to tell you how it holds up! I was also planning to play around with metallic purple on the black, so this should be interesting.
As for curing time, it WILL be a challenge, but that's what mertenders are for! Hopefully the two of us can figure something out to avoid air bubbles.

[Mermaid Dottie]

My earnest recommendation is that you avoid Silicone 2 at ALL COSTS. Silicone 1 is what you want. I have a buddy that used it in making various small figurines who gave me this recommendation. Silicone 2 is not just silicone. it has various other chemicals in it. Use 100% Silicone.

[MermaidRaegan]

Thanks Mermaid Dottie! The black silicone I've been planning to play with isn't I or II, but I was planning to go with I if I used clear silicone because I've heard better things about it. :) Like I said, my main worry with the black stuff is that it's siliconized acrylic, whatever that means, not pure silicone.

[OrcaMatt]

and her self made ALEX tail degraded and she couldn't use it anymore.Buster??:(

[Winged Mermaid]

Buster??:(

Buster is fine- he was her first tail she made out of slip casting latex :) It was her orange tail that she made in the tutorial that bit it.

[Syrenia]

That's what I used on my tail. It works like a charm. I don't think I'd ever use anything else. I've heard Alex irritates your skin if you get it on it, so I tried something else. Siliconized caulk is seriously the only thing I think I'd ever want to use.

[MermaidRaegan]

Silcione caulk, or siliconized *insert here* caulk? Just asking, since I'm debating between the two.

[angie]

I am so glad to have found this thread, its exactly what I have been looking for! I amgoing to make a tail with aquarium silicone, because when it cures in aquariums, it is non-toxic to fish. I know its not the same as platinum cure, but fish are really sensitive, so I am thinking its as close as I can find.

Also, I'm going to use an unusual method for applying scales: to put the caulk in a ziplock, snip the corner, and pipe it out like icing. I have done some tests, and it let's me really control the direction and shape of each tiny scale. Because each scale is piped on to the neoprene base, with a little overlap, would I have a problem with not doing the whole tail at once because the some of the scales had already cured?

Finally, color: I plan on painting the neoprene with acrylic before applying the scales. This is mainly because I do not have an airbrush, and I want to blend my base colors underneath the scales to look more organic. Will the acrylic underneath mess with the cure of the silicone? I am also going to add some clear glitter to the scales so they have some dimension, not just clear-ness over color.

I think I am the first person to try something exactly like this, but any advice would be greatly appreciated!

[Imogen Finnly]

I am so glad to have found this thread, its exactly what I have been looking for! I amgoing to make a tail with aquarium silicone, because when it cures in aquariums, it is non-toxic to fish. I know its not the same as platinum cure, but fish are really sensitive, so I am thinking its as close as I can find.

Also, I'm going to use an unusual method for applying scales: to put the caulk in a ziplock, snip the corner, and pipe it out like icing. I have done some tests, and it let's me really control the direction and shape of each tiny scale. Because each scale is piped on to the neoprene base, with a little overlap, would I have a problem with not doing the whole tail at once because the some of the scales had already cured?

Finally, color: I plan on painting the neoprene with acrylic before applying the scales. This is mainly because I do not have an airbrush, and I want to blend my base colors underneath the scales to look more organic. Will the acrylic underneath mess with the cure of the silicone? I am also going to add some clear glitter to the scales so they have some dimension, not just clear-ness over color.

I think I am the first person to try something exactly like this, but any advice would be greatly appreciated!

angie, this is an interesting method! post a thread on your adventures if it turns out well!
but how my question is how maby tubes of caulk would you use and what method would you use? I suppose slathering it on and crossing your fingers isn't the best way. or could you use like a level or trowel to smooth it out along the tail? but if its like if its 150 buck for all the tubes, personally I would much rather just spend a little more for the legit stuff you know?

[shadeofmyheart]

I know what Jayy means here.

I looked into this also, GE Silicone I is aquarium safe and msds only has some small safety stuff related to the acid it off-gasses (its not tin cure or platinum cure, its acid cure) in its uncured state. From what I can gather it used to say "aquarium safe" but it was removed because its not really strong enough for massive aquariums.

BUT at $5 a tube.. If you used a gallon of the stuff you would be spending close to $140 before tax. More if you think about how much gets left in the tube.


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[Imogen Finnly]

That's what I used on my tail. It works like a charm. I don't think I'd ever use anything else. I've heard Alex irritates your skin if you get it on it, so I tried something else. Siliconized caulk is seriously the only thing I think I'd ever want to use.

Where do you get siliconized caulk? Like home depot?

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