Herbivorous And Omnivorous Merfolk-Which Would You Be?

[Princess Kae-Leah]

I used to be adamantly convinced that all merfolk would be vegetarians, but now, to appease those mers who enjoy eating seafood, I now say there are two types of merfolk:
Type #1: Herbivorous Merfolk-Can talk to fish and other sea creatures and consider them more or less equals, and can survive on a plant-based diet of kelp and seaweed.
Type #2: Omnivorous Merfolk-Cannot talk to fish and other sea creatures, and need proteins and other nutrients from fish and other sea animals to survive.
Which would you be? I'm a herbivore!

While in my series all(or at least the vast majority, possible spoiler alert! ;)) merfolk are vegetarians, I've given this issue A LOT of thought, and I think, being objective and logical, it makes perfect sense for there to be both merfolk who do and do not eat fish and other sea animals if they existed for the following reasons:
(1) I've done some research on the food webs of aquatic ecosystems, and it really struck me how beautifully complex, balanced, and diverse it is. We have sea creatures who are aggressive predators, we have omnivorous reef fish who eat various small organisms, and we have manatees and dugongs who are very strict herbivores. Therefore, if merfolk existed, they'd likely be a very diverse bunch, NOT a homogenous(sp?) group who all looks the same and eats the same stuff.
(2) People are very diverse in their eating habits, so merfolk would probably be the same. There are humans who eat meat for every single meal and there are strict vegans, and there are lots of people in between. There are cultures where vegetarianism is extremely common and those where it is pretty much unheard of.

[Psychic Tideborn]

I'm glad you've brought this up. I personally think merfolk would be omnivores or carnivores. Mainly because of their two parts... Human (mainly omnivore, humans become vegen or vegetarian by choice) and fish (most fish are carnivores). Some mers consider themselves to be closer to marine mammals than fish, and in that case, every marine mammal I can think of is carnivorous or omnivorous. And although seaweed is high in certain nutrients i don't believe a diet made strictly of seaweed and algea would have enough vitamin minerals and nutrients to sustain a full grown mer. Dolphins, whales, seals, sharks and other large fish all eat meat, be it other smaller marine mammals or smaller fish. I love seafood and personally think merfolk would have a steady diet of both sea plants and animals if not just animals. I do believe there would be those mers who feel a certainamount of empathy towards their animal bretheren and would choose to go without, but for the most part I believe mers would instinctually eat fish. But that's just me.

[Princess Kae-Leah]

Actually there are marine mammals who are very strict herbivores: manatees and dugongs, who actually have gotten mistaken for merfolk, or so the legend goes. There are actually pretty large and biologically complex mammals, probably the closest thing that we know for sure that exists to an aquatic humanoid race, essentially. Sorry to correct you dahling though, as I do really appreciate your response. I think you touched on the key issue, the matter of *choice*, that is just because many mers do eat fish doesn't mean every last one does, as diversity is a very natural thing. Here's some Wikipedia links on manatees and dugongs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manatee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dugong

Although, I'd like this thread to stick to the "Which Would You Be?" question, as I'm honestly trying to tally which is more common in the mer-community, those who think of their mersona as fish-eating or not. This may overlap with their personal habits, but it is also possible to eat seafood in "real life" and think of your mersona(like if you perform or blog in character or what not) as a vegetarian who can communicate and befriend sea creatures, or not enjoy eating fish at all but think of your mersona as an omnivore/carnivore. Hopefully that makes sense. ;)

[Psychic Tideborn]

I didn't even consider manatees and dugongs, and I suppose I should have thought about that. I actually know quite a bit about both of them, but thanks for the wiki links. Although I think they are beautiful and graceful, I personally would not consider myself to be that closely related to them.

[SweeteSiren]

Scientifically, if you want to know what something eats, look at its teeth. Mermaids in my version of mythology have roughly human teeth, so that would make me omnivorous.

[Princess Kae-Leah]

Good point! The top half of mers in my series are pretty much identical to humans, which presumably includes their teeth, but they're vegetarians, which may be a case of(to quote TV Tropes) "You Fail Biology Forever", but then again, in my series, they're also magical, quasi-immortal creatures, so that's hardly the only unscientific thing about them. ;) So if mers were real, and were identical to humans above the waist, they'd probably be natural omnivores who can adjust to a vegetarian diet by choice, just like people. :)

[Alveric]

In my series, the Mers are very diverse, since their forms were shaped by both their costumes and imaginations at the moment of their transformations. But whether foragers, hunters or grazers, they take what they need directly from their environment, just like the sealife around them. Therefore making no more impact on their surroundings than a dolphin (carnivore) or manatee (herbivore).

Alveric

[Princess Kae-Leah]

Di-MER-sity is a beautiful thing! ;)

[Joy&RaptorsUnrestrained!]

Magic makes things both simpler and more complicated. A purely magical creature, such as an undine, probably wouldn't need to eat anything, at least, not in the normal biological sense. Magical creatures have been known to have unusual diets (dragons can't survive on virgins and knights alone, and some beliefs hold that they eat the treasure they sleep upon) and it is possible that merfolk could eat things that are inedible to us, or that we wouldn't even recognize as food sources, including rocks, coral, pearls, sand, etc. On the other hand, there are creatures like the mermecolion or the vegetable lamb, magical creatures which are constructed in such a way that they die within a few hours, thanks to their mixed dietary needs and the limitations of their physiology.

From a strictly biological view, large creatures tend to need to spend a significant portion of their day eating a lot of plants (or, in the case of whales, krill and other small creatures) in order to maintain their activity each day, and more than a few, including the aforementioned manatees and dugongs (both of which supplement their diets with fish caught in nets, invertebrates, jellyfish, shellfish, and other sea animals, and some species are actually fully omnivorous) move very slowly and ponderously compared to predators, something that I don't think really matches our images of mermaids (unless the reason they are seen on rocks so often is because they're exhausted all the time). Carnivores and omnivores often have sleeker, fuller, richer fur and hair, which seems to suggest an explanation for frequent combing of mermaids' lovely locks.

I think that omnivorous merfolk makes the greatest sense. Fish and sea creatures eat each other constantly, and the food chain is a vital and natural aspect of the environment. Cultures around the world have ascribed a magical and spiritual element to the concept of the hunt, using it as a rite of passage, a way of empathizing and connecting to both predators and prey, and becoming more than human, while a number of cultures and civilizations have rules and laws about hunting in order to protect the habitats and the populations of the hunted creatures. Through these lenses, the Hunt becomes something divine and intimate, explaining the prevalence of hunting gods like Artemis and Cernunnos and Odin and Neith and Mielikki and Orion and Sedna and Ogoun. Before the hunt, the hunter prepares ritualistically, families and loved ones offer support and tokens, and the hunter is supposed to relate to the prey, both in order to locate them and to prepare for how the prey will think, and to thank the spirits of the prey for feeding the people. During the hunt, the prey is dispatched quickly as possible, in order to prevent needless suffering, and when the hunters return, the people celebrate with feasts and storytelling and games and music, often honoring the sacrifice of the prey, which gave its life to feed the people, provide material for clothing and tools, and improve their quality of life. The prey's spirit is often believed to depart to the afterlife, placated and honored by the rituals of the hunt, perhaps to be reincarnated in the future so that the cycle begins again. Our modern human culture is primarily devoid of a number of these elements, as is the fishing industry, but people still say prayers before braving the stormy seas, and eating fish is of important religious significance for a number of people (notably among Christians, as now, during the season of Lent, when fish play an important role in meals on Fridays in honor of Jesus' sacrifice for us). I think you do meat and fish-eaters a disservice by limiting the magical ability to communicate with sea life to those who are not part of that cycle and honor.

[Princess Kae-Leah]

Interesting post, Joy! The two categories are based on the two most common depictions of merfolk in media, with respect to their dietary habits and their interaction with other sea creatures, with the herbivores being based on the TLM mers, who look down on and fear humans for eating fish, as well as the mers in my own series, with the second category based on the more realistic interpretation of mers that seems to be becoming more popular.
As far as purely magical creatures not needing to eat, I have thought of that before, but I decided to have the mers in my series needing to eat *something*, although they need less calories and nutrients to survive than humans and other animals, essentially a middle ground between needing to eat normally and not needing to eat at all(they don't go to the bathroom either, which doesn't make a lot of sense biologically either, so their whole physiology is intentionally not very biologically realistic). I on purpose made my mers quite different in function from humans and real animals to make them seem more "alien" and separate from humanity and the natural world, if that makes any sense at all. Them and other magical creatures which also exist in my series(fairies, centaurs, snow nymphs, etc.) are essentially the middle ground between the natural world and the world of the gods, with many features typical of purely divine beings, but still with their own limitations.

[Alveric]

In many (so called) primitive cultures, there is an actual kinship between hunter and prey (brother elk, sister buffalo etc.). The idea of ethical vegitarianism would be totally incomprehensible. The latter is a product of more agricultural more settled or even urbanized, rather than hunter and gatherer societies. Both would probably exist among Mers.

Alveric

[Joy&RaptorsUnrestrained!]

I am fully in agreement that choice is a primary indication of mer actions (though Hans Christian Andersen's description of merfolk as being without souls calls that into question, his story and the choices taken by the Little Mermaid seem to counter that suggestion), and that mermaids and mermen might choose to follow dietary restrictions for all the same reasons humans do, and more, perhaps, that are specific to mers and their culture(s). I think that such choices to be strictly vegetarian would more likely be individual choices, as opposed to full-culture-based ones, though I could see a cultural taboo against eating fish that bear a strong resemblance to one's own tail (a lionfish-finned mermaid might be unlikely to eat lionfish, a clownfish merman might abstain from eating clownfish, a tuna-tailed mermaid would grow queasy around others eating tuna, etc), or perhaps a tribe or family of merfolk might refrain from eating particular fish that have meaning and history to their group (one that revered sharks might forbid its members from eating sharks of any sort, while one that honors the Orca might only eat the favored foods of orcas, and one that associates angelfish with divine messengers might protect angelfish from harm even from other sea life). Among humans, many types of vegetarianism are not completely opposed to meat or animal products, but have exceptions (chicken, fish, etc) that they do eat and enjoy, and total vegetarians are comparatively rare. I propose that Mers would be the same way.

[Princess Kae-Leah]

I know, I'm mostly a pollotarian right now(I'm 75% lacto-ovo vegetarian and eat chicken a couple times a week). I've thought before if for omnivorous mers, eating actual fish with mer-esque tails would be considered quasi-cannibalism, but eating shrimp, lobster, crabs, oysters, clams, etc. would be fair game, as they don't resemble a mertail any more than a cow or chicken looks like us. I liked how in "Lost Voices"(awesome book, BTW!), the mermaids eat only small mollusks, such as oysters, and seaweed. They don't eat any kind of actual fish, as far as we know.

Thanks so much to everybody who responded to this thread with such interesting, well thought-out posts! This is really as fascinating discussion, isn't it? :)

[Mermaid Photine]

I rather like the carniverous, siren lures her prey with song and devours them point of view. I guess that makes me a bit of the minority around here. xD

I could, of course, also see a mer be omnivorous. Or survive with spiritual/mythical things. Humans have had a tendency to say that everything is out to eat them/curse them/ whatever. I just can't see a mer floating around munching on kelp all day.

[Princess Kae-Leah]

The mers in my series eat a diet composed of prepared dishes made from seaweed, kelp, and sea-berries(which, BTW, I'm not sure actually even exist! ;)) that resemble human foods, such as seaweed salads, fried kelp, seaweed pancakes, and seaberry pie, so they certainly make the most of their limited, strictly vegetarian diet, but Nerissa, my heroine, I think comments on how bland and boring mer-food is compared to human food, though of course most mers don't know any different. In the third book of my series(spoiler alert! ;)), this one young merman admits that he ate a fish, and enjoyed the taste of it. It was already dead when he found it, so he really didn't cause any kind of harm by eating it, but they're still a vegetarian society and what he did is considered shocking and disgusting by his fellow merfolk, although perhaps it really shouldn't be, since he didn't even kill it.
Oh, and Pandorah, the villians in my series are Sea Sirens! :)

[Mermaid Photine]

They can cook pies underwater? That's awesome!

[Princess Kae-Leah]

Magic can allow them to do lots of things! ;)

[Theta]

Yeah, they cook pies over seafloor vents! Yum!

:)

[Princess Kae-Leah]

I've been doing research on whether or not all herbivorous animals are really not that strong or fast, and it looks like strong, fast herbivores do in fact exist, although, admittedly most, if not all of those herbivores live in terrestrial, not aquatic habitats.

[Mermaid Photine]

I think I'd be rather scared of the aquatic equivalent of an angry moose.

[Princess Kae-Leah]

@Joy...-I for curiosity Googled "hairy herbivore", "hairy carnivore", and "hairy omnivore", and interestingly enough "hairy herbivore" had the most results.

[Joy&RaptorsUnrestrained!]

Yeah, and horses basically spend their entire day eating whenever they're allowed to do so. Same with deer. So while there are large and fast landbound mammals, and clearly dinosaurs reveal large and fast reptiles, there are downsides to a limited diet.

[Joy&RaptorsUnrestrained!]

And I'm not saying that herbivores don't have hair, Princess Kae-Leah, just that the hair of carnivores is often more luxurious, thick, and lustrous (think of cats, racoons, skunks, otters, etc, as compared to say, water buffalo). Even horse manes and tails, though long, tend to be thin (and they don't have the same nerves and receptors that we have attached to our hair, which is what enables riders to hold onto a horse's mane without harming the creature).

[Mermaasai]

carnivore *big toothy grin*

greens are an accompaniment

[New York Mermaid]

i guess im in the carnivore category :)
I wont touch anything plant, but my favorites at the moment are salmon,crab and shrimp. I can also speak to large fish (Whale & Basking sharks, Sailfish (billfish too), whales and dolphins.

many mers have different choices and opinions of what their mersona (or persona) is about. Herbivore, Omnivore, Carnivore or other.. we all swim in the same waters even if we all lead different lives )

[Princess Kae-Leah]

Herbivores-1, Omnivores/Carnivores-7, so far is the poll results here. Looks like I'm in the minority here, but that's OK. More fried kelp and seaweed pasta for me! :)

[Princess Kae-Leah]

Here's a question of the subject of what merfolk would eat: from you guys' experience, what is more commonly depicted, vegetarian or fish-eating merfolk?

[Blondie]

I would end up being an omnivore. :$ I really like meat... Lent is hard for me. I have meat with every meal almost...

[Amethyst]

As a vegetarian myself, I've always thought Mermaids shouldn't eat other creatures, it's kinda icky and canibalistic too :(

[Princess Kae-Leah]

@Amethyst, so glad someone sees my side!

[Amethyst]

@Princess Kae-Leah (http://mernetwork.com/index/member.php?73-Princess-Kae-Leah)



lol It always makes me cringe when I see mermaids in films and on tv eating fish, urrghh lol

[Mermaid Lorelei]

I'm definitely an omnivore. I love my meat. :>

[Gem Stone]

I depends on how I feel that day. Some days, I just really need some vegetables and that does consist of most of my diet. But other times, meat is tasty. I do eat more veggies though, so I have to choose the omnivore category for myself.

[Demi]

Omnivore, without doubt..
Meat is a good thing x)

[Princess Kae-Leah]

I do think there are valid points to be made on both sides of the "what would mers eat?" debate, hence the idea that there are different classes of mers based on diet, lifestyle, and ability to communicate with sea animals, but it has come up that some don't agree with such rigid categories as they could promote stereotypes and generalizations, and I guess I can see that point. I *do* indeed have my own biases based on my personal beliefs, hence when I think of omnivorous/carnivorous merfolk, I do tend to stereotype them as more violent than vegetarian mers, where others may have a vision of predatory mers who are noble hunters at one with the circle of life, similar to Native American beliefs. I think what the debate really comes down to is realism vs. fantasy. While it's usually a given that any portrayal of merfolk may not be 100% biologically plausible in every single way and may have some magical elements, some are certainly more shall we say, grounded, than others. It seems a more realistic view of merfolk is becoming increasingly popular, especially in fiction aimed at adults, who want something darker and more believable than Disney's Little Mermaid, and these kind of quasi-realistic merfolk more often than not eat fish, as since most fish eat other fish, many view that as the most biologically plausible view. Freedom of speech and freedom of the press is a wonderful thing, so if that's what people want to write and read, there's nothing wrong with it. The more light, magical, mythical, Disney-esque view of mers, however, often, though not always, do not eat fish, as it's common for Disney-style mers to live in a world where sea creatures are highly anthromorphosized(sp?), that is they talk, have very strong personalities, are drawn perhaps "cuter" than they are in real life, sometimes you may even see Disney-style sea creatures wearing clothing, or at least accessories(hats, pearl necklaces, etc.), although, oddly, the TLM-verse was not always consistent with its portrayal of sea creatures as sentient/sapient, with sharks depicted as bloodthirsty and Spot the orca in the animated series unable to speak and described as a "wild animal", suggesting there's levels of sentience in animals in-universe, despite real-life sharks and orcas being highly intelligent. Real crabs do not sing or talk, so a realistic mer eating a crab is NOT the same as Ariel eating Sebastian, is it? For me part of the appeal of the Disney-esque interpretation is, to me at least, what could make one feel more in touch with the ocean and its creatures than being able to talk to and befriend them, to be part of something that humans do not understand, a beautiful, magical world they are not aware of? The fantasy of being a mermaid who is friends with all kinds of sea creatures gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling, so that's what I went with in my series, even improving on what I think are some of the inconsistencies of the TLM-verse, by making ALL sea creatures sentient/anthropomorphized and essentially throwing biology out the window by having mers and other magical creatures as well live in a world where the laws of nature are not obeyed due to a powerful magic, which, in a sense, is realistic in that there's no way Disney-style mers could exist in real life WITHOUT some kind of powerful magic protecting them

[Alveric]

The great thing about freedom is that you and I are free to create our Mer characters as we want and the reader chooses. It doesn't have to be exclusive either. I've read and enjoyed your stories.

Alveric

[Coradion]

Well if you're a vegetarian mer than you would have some issues. Most macro algae grow in shallow water. So you are restricted to a mostly intertidal range. The majority of seaweeds people eat occur at shallower depths or in tidepool/surf zone areas. While seaweeds can provide all 9 amino acids that your body can't synthesize de novo and some have high protein concentrations you would need to eat massive amounts of those seaweeds in order to survive. Also if you had a fish tail it would be ripped to shreds in the event of high surf or low tide feeding attempts. Hence why most big fish don't come to shore. While seaweed can have tons of nutrients your biggest issue is calories, especially as a warm blooded creature that lives in an aquatic climate. Assuming you only needed to be consuming 1,500 calories a day to survive and one pound of ogo seaweed only has a litte under 50 calories you're looking at 30 pounds of seaweed a day and if conditions are rough you may not be able to feed. So... you can be a vegetarian mermaid or you can eat other animals. I would definitely be omnivorous and still talk to fish, also canibalism is eating the same species. So as long as you don't eat another mermaid you're okay.

[Kanti]

What if you're a filter feeding mermaid!?
Haha just keeding

My idea of a mermaid is different. I don't really imagine them being able to comminicate with animals any different than you communicate with an animal. They can read their body language but there would be no "universal language" for them all. They'd just spend more time around those animals so they'd be more skilled at reading their behavior. I guess that could be "communicating" on a very basic level.
I imagine mermaids would be just like dolphins. They're a very complex organism that functions with very similar mental capacity and body functions. In other words, dolphins are highly intelligent, they're agile, etc. Dolphins live completely off fish so I'd assume a mermaid living in the areas dolphins live would probably have to share that diet.
On the other hand, dewgongs are almost just as dexterous, just as agile, etc. and as far as I know, they eat nothing but seagrass, so it's possible for a large creature to live completely off a vegetarian diet in their area.

I like the way you put it though, Kae Leah. The Disney approach to mermaids is cute and entertaining and much more human. You wouldn't eat your dog, would you? Ariel wouldn't eat Sabastien either. It's a cute way to look at things and it's fun for some people, but I'm under the category that I like my mermaids to be realistic. Personally, I love the Native American outlook on it. They can be savage but still respectful. They need to eat but they won't destroy their ecosystem. You can eat an animal and still respect it.
I also like how people often turn mermaids against humans. I'm sure mermaids are used to eating sea-based things, but it's always interesting to see when people interpret them as human-killers. After all, humans are always around, they're easy to target and attract, why not?

I like to be realistic when I think of things, but mermaids are myths, so it can be basically any way you want it xD
I don't see a problem with mermaids being vegetarians. I'm sure they're sentient enough to make those types of choices.
I like hearing all sides. It's more interesting to have variety than all of the same type.

[Joy&RaptorsUnrestrained!]

Princess Kae-Leah, I admire you for your clear and thoughtful statements, as well as your willingness to admit bias and keep a calm and rational discussion, but I think I take issue with some of your word choices and definitions. First of all, herbivores are not necessarily harmless or friendly or gentle... many (baboons, boars, buffalo, bison, stallions, rhinos, hippos, elephants, bulls, gorillas, cassowaries, kangaroos, peccaries, etc) are just as, or more violent than predators. I'd also argue that your definitions of Realistic and Fantasy are cutting out wide swaths of both categories. Fantasy is a genre of speculative fiction, arguing what would the world be like if something outside our understanding of conventional science and nature was the case, while revealing deeper truths about reality. It is a reflection of the real world through which we can better understand reality. When he wrote The Little Mermaid, Hans Christian Andersen created a world for us to view his own perception of being different and discontent, the desire for something elusive and beautiful, and the different methods one could take to achieve that ethereal thing, as well of the dangers lurking in wait during the pursuit, and the sacrifices we make for those things and people we love, among many other themes. Reality is too complex and too immediate... we're too involved in it to see it clearly and objectively. Fantasy allows us to step back and understand what we're really dealing with. On the other hand, one can be "Realistic" without being dark... as Bridge to Terabithia proves. And one can have Fantasy that is dark, gritty, corruptive, lustful, deceptive, illusory, and diabolical. Genres are inclusive, not exclusive... and one book or movie could fall into more than one genre. There's also nothing new about realistic depictions of fantastical creatures and events... the myths that gave us mermaids (and many other creatures, such as fairies and unicorns and even angels) in the first place usually defined them as monsters, eerie spirits, ugly, and jealous beings. It was only in the Victorian era when people became interested in fairy tales but cleaned up all the depictions of them to make fairies wonderful winged children and magical ladies who grant wishes instead of fiendish lovers and baby-thieves and cruel lords who were too terrible to even be mentioned by name.

You also use the terms "light", "magical", "mythical" and "Disney-esque"... but these don't necessarily mean the same things. Mythical stories involve explanations of why things are the way they are, tales of gods and heroes and the monsters they face to defend humanity... there aren't too many friendly depictions of sea maidens, because myths were told to teach humans how to live in a world that is more dangerous and powerful than they were at the time. Disney has done some amazing work making old stories more popular and famous, but they also ground up the original stories to make them more appealing... often losing a great deal of the details, and depicting characters in ways that would be attractive to their audiences... children, and men (hence Ariel's unlikely waist size). Characters eating isn't very entertaining and doesn't often progress a story, so it is often glossed over, and the dining habits of many characters in Disney movies are vague (though I'd also point out that Simba and Nala can talk with and befriend Timon and Pumbaa, but Nala still tried to eat the latter two before she was introduced to them)... I'd be more concerned about Belle eating with sentient silverware (and sticking enchanted humans in her mouth with food stuck to their heads! Eeeeew!) than merfolk eating animals that might or might not be able to talk. Anthropomorphic and intelligent and talking animals, such as the ones in Wild Magic by Tamora Pierce, and Wicked, and The Chronicles of Narnia usually are noticeably different from populations of other wild/domesticated animals, and live separately.

Being able to connect with the world around you in ways that other people cannot is a compelling and beautiful thing, and you are right, it is something to pursue with enthusiasm. Animals are amazing and inspiring figures, and connecting with them provides peace and healing to the soul. But, as was pointed out in the discussion on hunting, there are many ways to connect with, commune with, and honor animals around you. Refraining from eating animal flesh is one of those ways, and you're right when you say that the fishing industry commits horrific acts on the ecosystem just to maintain the status quo. Biology and realism have only the lightest connections to merfolk, but as part of the mirror that is Fantasy, one must be careful in how one differs a created universe from reality, so as not to raise disbelief and shatter the reflection. Magic, on the other hand, can work wonders, but it needs to make sense to the readers as well... the energy for a spell has to come from somewhere and go somewhere, a curse needs a way to break it, a blessing can be taken away, and readers are very suspicious if we get something for nothing... if it isn't a gift for virtues or good behavior, or lacks years of study and hard work for the magic, or some other price, which is why The Little Mermaid's loss of her voice thanks to the power of the sea witch in exchange for legs speaks to something inside us. It is tempting to say "It's magic" and be done with the explanation, but that leaves the reader feeling like they want to know more. Does the magic draw on the life of all the animals, making them intuitively understand not to harm each other while their own life energies supporting each other? Does the magic draw on some artifact or monument of peace or harmony, and if so, have any villains (such as your Sirens) tried to damage the artifact/monument and therefore break the spell? Are the sea plants magical ones, unusually filling and empowering, not to mention tasty enough to tempt carnivores/piscivores to eat them instead of their normal food, and providing intelligence and communication? And what happens if the plants suffer a blight or a bad season?

[Princess Kae-Leah]

Interesting points, Joy! I do realize that my choice of words may not always fully explain my view of merfolk, as you're right that the original mythology tends to be quite dark. I suppose what I mean is that, within my lifetime, most people seem to think of Ariel and other kid-friendly versions of mers and other magical creatures, such as fairies and unicorns, so while you're correct that darker, sometimes more "realistic" takes on mers may not be technically a new thing, for many people it may be new *to them*. I personally know people who found the mers in Pirates and Harry Potter, for example, to be quite shocking and different from how they were used to seeing and thinking of mers, which I'm not by any means saying is a bad thing, per se. I actually liked the Pirates mers myself, and found them somewhat similar to my own Sea Sirens. Perhaps, yeah, putting portrayals of mers into categories such as "light, Disney-esque, kid-friendly, fantastical" and "dark, quasi-realistic" may be over-simplifying matters, as one only has to read TVTropes' "Our Mermaids Are Different" page to see that writers' takes on merfolk and other fantasy as well are EXTREMELY diverse, and some interpretations may not easily fit into those boxes. I've seen and read many darker takes on merfolk that I'm not sure if I'd describe as "realistic", or biologically plausible, but were certainly a far cry from Ariel or Mermaid Barbie, and I've also seen some fairly realistic takes on mers that were pretty light and "family-friendly" in tone. I think what my point was, when it comes to the dietary issues, yes, I admit that omnivorous merfolk is more realistic, biologically speaking, and that most of the interpretations that feature vegetarian mers are not exactly shooting for realism by any stretch and never claimed to be, I guess that's where the dichtomy(sp?)(fish-eating mers=more realistic, mers who espouse the "Fish Are Friends, Not Food" philosophy=more fantastical) comes into play for me, even though, yes, I admit and realize that it may be an over-simplification. And as far as not all herbivores being peaceful and so on, that's true, and as such, it's possible to portray a vegetarian mermaid or merman who's a terrible (mer)person or even violent or warlike. I guess that's where stereotypes come into play, and those of us who are into animal rights are often guilty, I admit, of stereotyping and generalizing vegetarians and other animal welfare supporters as compassionate, gentle, peaceful, etc. and those who hunt and otherwise participate in what we may not agree with as violent and cruel, which of course isn't always the case in real life. I think I'm a pretty "black and white"-minded person, at least partly thanks to my AS, but I try to open my mind to seeing shades of gray.

The back story of how my Sea Nymph world got the way it is will be explained in Nerissa #4, which is on the way. Spoiler alert for those who want to read the series and be surprised:
The very first Sea Nymphs and their Consorts were regular humans who were transformed by the Goddess of the Sea, who gave them the ability to communicate with sealife as their only magical ability, but they otherwise functioned as regular humans and sea creatures do, and as such were expected were to eat fish, but most of them were reluctant to do so as they now could talk to sea creatures and considered them to be their equals. They kept complaining to the Goddess requesting her to make modifications on their world and what they needed to survive, and every time she agreed to do so. They eventually became natural herbivores, and all the other sea creatures who lived in their kingdoms became the same. The sea plants they eat are highly nutritious, which may be at least possible due to magic, and while Nerissa does consider food in Pacifica to be pretty bland and boring compared to human food, those who were raised on it wouldn't know the difference, and most merfolk and other creatures were raised to view fish literally as "friends, not food", so for the most part they wouldn't even consider it an option, much as humans wouldn't consider eating their shoes or floor lamps to be a valid food option, although every society produces its rebels and misfits who go against what they're taught by their culture.

[Prince Calypso]

i consider myself to be an omnivore and a carnivore, as i believe real mermaids would be.
i think they would have the same set of rules about animals that we.
the more intelligent the sea creature the more likely it would be to be seen as a pet or wild beast to be treated with respect.
but the more docile and the larger the breeding population of the creature i think it would be eaten.

dolphins' whales, seals, manatees, dugongs, sharks, tuna, sword fish, sail fish, saw fish and all other large fish, and sea snakes would belong in the first category.

smaller fish such as sardeens, pipe fish, sea snail, crustaceans squids and small octopi would be in the second category along with plant life like sea weed and kelp

as my mer persona is a Caribbean mermaid i believe a diet of fruits as well as smaller fish and plant life would suit me.
in all actually i imagine my mermaid living in a mangrove forest trading insults with monkeys while chewing on a small squid lol

[Princess Kae-Leah]

Ya know what, Calypso? I actually agree with you that for omnivorous/carnivorous mers, marine mammals, sharks, large predatory fish, and other large, intelligent sea animals would be "off limits" as food, but creatures that are low on the food chain such as forage fish, crustaceans, and mollusks would be what they would prey upon, essentially aligning themselves as one with marine mammals and other large predators. Another theory I've thrown around for omni merfolk is that actual finfish of any kind would be verboten to eat, due to the whole "almost but not quite cannibalism" thing, but crustaceans, mollusks, and possibly squid would be seen as food. The mermaids in the book Lost Voices seem to support the latter theory, as they eat a very limited diet of seaweed and raw mussels, and in Splash Madison eats lobster but not any finfish, as far as I can remember. Yes, this theory may be "splitting hairs", as an animal is an animal, and even if omni mers were very strict about not eating finfish, they still wouldn't be considered vegetarians or herbivores in any sense, but to me at least, I still find a mer eating a lobster or clam to be less squicky than a mermaid eating a tuna or salmon, since a lobster or clam doesn't look any more like them than a cow or chicken looks like us.

[Prince Calypso]

Ya know what, Calypso? I actually agree with you that for omnivorous/carnivorous mers, marine mammals, sharks, large predatory fish, and other large, intelligent sea animals would be "off limits" as food, but creatures that are low on the food chain such as forage fish, crustaceans, and mollusks would be what they would prey upon, essentially aligning themselves as one with marine mammals and other large predators. Another theory I've thrown around for omni merfolk is that actual finfish of any kind would be verboten to eat, due to the whole "almost but not quite cannibalism" thing, but crustaceans, mollusks, and possibly squid would be seen as food. The mermaids in the book Lost Voices seem to support the latter theory, as they eat a very limited diet of seaweed and raw mussels, and in Splash Madison eats lobster but not any finfish, as far as I can remember. Yes, this theory may be "splitting hairs", as an animal is an animal, and even if omni mers were very strict about not eating finfish, they still wouldn't be considered vegetarians or herbivores in any sense, but to me at least, I still find a mer eating a lobster or clam to be less squicky than a mermaid eating a tuna or salmon, since a lobster or clam doesn't look any more like them than a cow or chicken looks like us.

actually i think the theory is really a sound one

[Danimer]

Actually there are marine mammals who are very strict herbivores: manatees and dugongs, who actually have gotten mistaken for merfolk, or so the legend goes. There are actually pretty large and biologically complex mammals, probably the closest thing that we know for sure that exists to an aquatic humanoid race, essentially. Sorry to correct you dahling though, as I do really appreciate your response. I think you touched on the key issue, the matter of *choice*, that is just because many mers do eat fish doesn't mean every last one does, as diversity is a very natural thing. Here's some Wikipedia links on manatees and dugongs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manatee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dugong

Although, I'd like this thread to stick to the "Which Would You Be?" question, as I'm honestly trying to tally which is more common in the mer-community, those who think of their mersona as fish-eating or not. This may overlap with their personal habits, but it is also possible to eat seafood in "real life" and think of your mersona(like if you perform or blog in character or what not) as a vegetarian who can communicate and befriend sea creatures, or not enjoy eating fish at all but think of your mersona as an omnivore/carnivore. Hopefully that makes sense. ;)

Well, but manatees are mostly intestines, volume-wise. Their large shape is commonly thought to be due to blubber, but is in fact that size in order to house a large and complex digestive system (about the size of a horse's), which contains special bacteria to break down cellulose in a way that humans cannot. They eat huge amounts of plant matter and slowly digest it over several days so they can extract the most nutrients from it, using their specialized hindgut. They also replace their molars periodically, which get worn down from all that chewing of fibrous material.

Like gorillas, in order to subsist largely on plants, their metabolism needs to take a big hit, which is partly why they move so slowly - they can't spare the calories it would require to expend energy needlessly, like dolphins do when they play. Their metabolism runs at about 1/3 the rate of other placental mammals. Also, the human brain requires about 25% more energy than other mammals, which requires stretching that metabolic budget even farther.

Basically, if you want to be shaped like a manatee, and move like a manatee, and have the cognitive ability of a manatee, then by all means, use them as a comparison. But their diet is not a choice, it's an evolutionary niche.

Of course, magical beings can do, eat and be whatever they like. :)

[Coradion]

Actually there are marine mammals who are very strict herbivores: manatees and dugongs, who actually have gotten mistaken for merfolk, or so the legend goes. There are actually pretty large and biologically complex mammals, probably the closest thing that we know for sure that exists to an aquatic humanoid race, essentially. Sorry to correct you dahling though, as I do really appreciate your response. I think you touched on the key issue, the matter of *choice*, that is just because many mers do eat fish doesn't mean every last one does, as diversity is a very natural thing. Here's some Wikipedia links on manatees and dugongs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manatee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dugong

Although, I'd like this thread to stick to the "Which Would You Be?" question, as I'm honestly trying to tally which is more common in the mer-community, those who think of their mersona as fish-eating or not. This may overlap with their personal habits, but it is also possible to eat seafood in "real life" and think of your mersona(like if you perform or blog in character or what not) as a vegetarian who can communicate and befriend sea creatures, or not enjoy eating fish at all but think of your mersona as an omnivore/carnivore. Hopefully that makes sense. ;)


If you are citing information as the basis of something scientific you may want to avoid wiki. Primary literature is usually best if you want to make a point, although given the nature of the topic I don't think anyone minds. If you use a manatee as an example you should also consider the lifestyle. They prefer shallow water regions in a high heat, high light environment so they reduce caloric expenditures. They're also so slow moving that boats run over them pretty regularly. If you wanted to be a grazing mermaid like a manatee you would spend most of your time eating and trying to put on weight while conserving energy, not much swimming around and playing on reefs, etc.

[Kanti]

If you are citing information as the basis of something scientific you may want to avoid wiki. Primary literature is usually best if you want to make a point, although given the nature of the topic I don't think anyone minds. If you use a manatee as an example you should also consider the lifestyle. They prefer shallow water regions in a high heat, high light environment so they reduce caloric expenditures. They're also so slow moving that boats run over them pretty regularly. If you wanted to be a grazing mermaid like a manatee you would spend most of your time eating and trying to put on weight while conserving energy, not much swimming around and playing on reefs, etc.

But what about Green sea turtles and Dugongs?
Both of those are grazing animals and they're very athletic. Even a sea turtle, which is ectothermic manages to go pretty far offshore~
Dugongs are known to live in the arctic, where temperatures aren't so warm and sunny. They are pretty fat xD, but they still maintain
a very active lifestyle and hold migration patterns.

[Coradion]

Which green sea turtle do you mean? That common name covers quite a few species. All sea turtles can be kept alive on a carnivorous diet, most are at the very least omnivorous at some point in their life history, preference of one food type vs. actively choosing not to consume something are different. Dugongs live in warm coastal waters, and any marine mammal biologist would tell you they're not very athletic. They inhabit coastal zones as opposed to manatee's which tend towards rivers and estuarine environments. I'm not saying grazing doesn't work for some animals, and while again this is about theoretical merfolk. If we were going to compare a mermaid to a dugong, sure it might work the mermaid just needs a few more meters of gut and the ability to pack on huge amounts of blubber.

[Kanti]

I don't know the species off the top of my head. But it's called the green sea turtle. It's supposedly one of/the only herbivorous sea turtles. I do think they actually eat man-of-wars and sponges when they're smaller, but when fully mature they shift to only consume vegetation.
When they're growing they essentially NEED protein, something very typical of reptiles, especially since they can't get the extra fat headstart from their mothers like mammals do. Dugongs don't require any of that extra meat in their diet AND they're very large and endothermic.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if it's possible for a reptile to fully support it's adult lifestyle of complete herbivory and a large mammal is able to support itself on a diet of vegetation throughout it's entire life, then why not a mermaid living in tropical climates? They'd probably be limited to that area, and the further to the poles they live the fatter they'd have to get xD

We can only speculate on mermaids since they don't exist, and dugongs are probably as close as we can get.
I think if mermaids did exist and were herbivorous, if they'd appear as we think they appear, healthy looking and relatively athletic, they'd have to live right on the equator and be relatively limited to inshore areas. I think it'd still be possible, even if under very certain conditions.
If they stray, however, they'd probably have to shift appearance much closer to the dugong and gain all the weight and stuff like you said.

You just have to consider more than one thing in your comparisons. You can't be completely black and white because I mean, what IS a mermaid? Would it be a mammal or a reptile? Would it be a fish? Essentially a mermaid can be ANYTHING so you can really just change it's features to make it more favorable in the vegetarian aspect.

[Coradion]

Kay... well again it's all for fun, but I spend most of my time studying/working with fish ecology and biology. I don't specialize in marine reptiles or mammals, you can think whatever you want but saying a dugong is athletic is like saying a chicken is an athletic bird. Yeah, it can move and run a bit, but it is not what you think of as an athletic creature. Using a turtle as an example for something that is supposed to be half mammal half fish is kinda odd, like the entire evolutionary bauplan isn't quite relevant. I am in no way taking this seriously I just think if you're gonna try and reason it out. Also look at the proportions of a dugong, it looks the way it does because it solved the problem we're talking about. I don't think merfolk could appear as we think they would if they were herbivorous. They would need so much more room for their gut.

[Kanti]

Oh, sorry I didn't mean to offend you or anything o_O
But I would say a dugong is more athletic than a manatee. Sure, they don't flip around, but they're
fairly active for the most part. And I would call a chicken athletic compared to a turkey in the same way
a dugong is more athletic than a manatee.

And a turtle is actually a great example if you stopped to think about it for a second.
I say that because if mermaids did exist on this planet, they probably wouldn't be half mammal half fish.
In my opinion, they're much more likely to be a link between reptiles and mammals.
The evolutionary chain links mammals and reptiles MUCH closer. If a mermaid was REALLY more closely related
to a fish, it wouldn't have arms, it would just be a shark. At least if it was part reptile, it would make sense that it
had some sort of arm-structure that would have been evolved from living on land. It would even be closer to what
we define as a "mermaid". Reptiles can develop fin structures, thin membranes, larger lung capacity, they contain
scales, and they even have membranes that are specially developed for underwater vision. It makes more sense
that it would be something like that, at least in MY opinion.

Either way, I don't care to argue about it if it's going to be taken on a personal level. I'm kinda feeling that you're
getting a bit too defensive on it. This was just supposed to be a fun topic and it's suddenly turned into "I'm not
taking this seriously". It just shows you can't even keep an open mind when talking about something MYTHICAL
Sorry, but that's pretty ironic ._.

[Coradion]

I'm not taking it personally, I've said that like three times now... I have also made it clear that I don't think it's a serious topic, pretty sure I said that in my last post. I just think if you're going to try and use scientific reasoning to back something like this and someone actually has background in the field you may want to be a bit more clear with what you present. Like marine biology is kinda my thing, in the I work at an aquarium and study it way :P, the energetics with living in an aquatic environment are really different from a terrestrial one. My point was that I don't think herbivory can work unless serious alterations the bauplan were made also if you want to try and use evolutionary reasoning I'd go with merfolk are actually mammals that have just undergone a secondary loss. Traits like bony scales are actually really primitive so assuming the morphology changed similarly to those of whales and dolphins the genes for scale expression, etc might just resurface as active parts of the genome.

[Kanti]

Sorry then, I must've misunderstood your tone. It is the internet I suppose, ahah.
I don't know. You probably know more than me but for some reason I don't see a problem with herbivorous
mermaids. I think it's possible, I just don't think there are enough things to compare to. A carnivorous
mermaid is a lot easier to imagine and it's something I'd personally like better, I suppose I was just
arguing for the sake of arguing to see if it was plausible.

I've always imagined mermaids as being mammal/something. Fish just doesn't make sense. I would also
like to assume that they don't have gills and lay eggs so reptiles fits that perfectly for me.
I don't know any animals that have scale-like parts besides armadillos I suppose. I guess if they can
have soemthing that resembles scales then it'd be sort of the same thing lol

[Coradion]

Yeah internet tones come off as weird. I think scales are possible for sure, cause it wouldn't be getting something new just digging up something old. I think they might be like some air breathing fish or just have a lot of vascularized tissue in the mouth, it'd just need a way to maximize surface area. I just don't think they could be herbivorous without a really weird body shape cause the problem is in just the sheer amount of food you would need to survive.

[Kanti]

I suppose. I'll admit I never thought of it quite much. I just knew of some
animals that were herbivores. I guess seagrasses aren't quite as nutritious
or numerous as terrestrial plants.

And scales on a mammal seem very strange. I just googled "mammal
with scales" and got this awesome looking thing:
2244

I would have never thought xD but looking at that, yea those basically
look like fish scales. I assume they're modified hairs or some sort of
keratin formations.

[green52]

I've wanted to learn to spearfish. I think if I'm not a vegetarian, than its disrespectful to an animal to be willing to eat it, but not take responsibility for its death. I think its natural.

[Coradion]

Spearfishing is fun, I only three prong though. I don't like spear guns.

[Coradion]

I suppose. I'll admit I never thought of it quite much. I just knew of some
animals that were herbivores. I guess seagrasses aren't quite as nutritious
or numerous as terrestrial plants.

And scales on a mammal seem very strange. I just googled "mammal
with scales" and got this awesome looking thing:
2244

I would have never thought xD but looking at that, yea those basically
look like fish scales. I assume they're modified hairs or some sort of
keratin formations.



I haven't looked up what this guy is yet, but they can be bony or plated scales. It's an ancestral trait that may have secondarily arisen. Why making something new when you already have the recipe for the old one.

[Lyna]

oh i am definitely an omnivore...leading more towards the carnivore side i'm sure....algae doesn't look very appetising. seaweek is alright...wrapped around fish. hahaha

[spottedcatfish]

I would be omnivorous... I love meat and vegetables.

[leeloo]

I would be a vegetarian mermaid (if biologically possible for a mermaid) since I am a vegan human already :). I like the idea of mermaids being one with their environment and friends to other sea creatures. I understand some of the points others have made though. If I had to eat animals as a mermaid, I would try to only eat animals like oysters, clams, etc. Any animals without a brain first, since they would be least likely to be sentient and feel pain, fear, etc.

[Merman Dan]

As I mentioned in the thread about mermaids eating seafood (http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?2429-Mermaid-eating-seafood), I'd go with omnivorous.