A Mature, Drama-free Discussion on Intellectual Property [Archive]

malinghi

03-24-2012, 05:33 PM

I thought it would be interesting to have a mature discussion on the idea of intellectual property. You're welcome to your opinions, but don't turn this into a fight or I'll lock this thread a heartbeat.

I'll begin with a quote:
"Good artists copy. Great artists steal." -Pablo Picasso (attributed?)

The meaning of the quote is somewhat unclear, and pretty controversial. It might simply be a weird, unapologetic defense of stealing. Or maybe it's an edgy way of saying that being totally original is impossible since we are influenced by everything we see. What do you think it means? Do you agree?

The second thing I'd like to pose to everybody is whether we are all being hypocritical by selectively condemning some acts of theft, and ignoring others. I do believe that some of the accusations of theft made about Mr. Ducharme are valid. But I haven't seen much acknowledgement of the fact that Eric's work has almost certainly been reverse engineered and adopted by others in the community. On the other hand, the very first tails Mr. Ducharme ever sold were fabric, and he was accused of stealing the idea from FoxMoon Productions. This is a pretty weird accusation, since nowadays the design of a basic fabric tail is considered so simple that the idea that someone could feel possessive of it seems hard to believe. Additionally, Make Van Daal purchased one of the tails used in the 13th Year and used reproductions of its fin in tails that he sold. Is this wrong? Is everyone guilty? Is no one?
21672166

So what is theft?
How does one "own" something intangible such as an idea or a method?
And do we condemn acts of theft inconstantly?

Discuss.

Gem Stone

03-24-2012, 05:46 PM

Hard to say exactly. I agree that it's possible two people could look at the same fish and decide to base a tail after that fish (example). I think the 'theft' comes where one person puts an idea out there and someone else makes a profit off it. I don't truely see how to even prove that someone stole something off the Internet because they could just say they hadn't seen it before and then it's a he said she said situation. It may be a little harsh, but the way I see it is don't trust that random people whom you've never met are going to respect your ideas as yours if it's on a site where anyone can see it.

Im going to use myself as an example.
I drew my dream tail based off of a mermaid figurine I was given by a friend. After deciding I wanted this as my dream tail, I found another mers photo of her dream tail and while they are not EXACT, they are Definately similar. I have no clue where she got her inspiration, but if anyone compared the photos they could say I 'stole' her idea.

Its a thin line with lots of grey areas, but some people will go with the crowd or agree with their freinds without truely understanding both sides of the argument.

Mermaid Star

03-24-2012, 07:56 PM

I think that it really isn't about whether you copy someones work. In several instances in my thread, I have listed that I learned something from someone or got my idea for something from someone else. I think as long as you credit someone, it is all good. We are all influenced by what we see and do so it is going to happen. But to claim that you came up with the design your self when you have out and out copied it, is what gets people,my self included, up in arms.

Gem Stone

03-24-2012, 07:58 PM

i agree with star

AniaR

03-24-2012, 08:13 PM

thats what I said too... quite possibly in a more dramatic way... or... very probably... *takes fins out of mouth* sorry Malghni <3

Artisankatie

03-24-2012, 08:34 PM

An example that I think of a lot is people saying they started the mermaiding craze. While it's true that a lot of people might have seen someone else doing it and thought 'I want to do that!', I think most of us had the idea ourselves, and then found Mer Yuku or Network, which then helped them achieve their dream.
I think copyright (at least in Australia) doesn't cover things that anyone can just think of themselves, and it doesn't cover modifying things that already exist, so I'm not sure of specific designs... people might be unconsciously inspired by the same source. If your design is inspired by something but you've added or removed specific elements to customise it, you still might not be able to get copyright on it but you'll have more street cred as coming up with that design, at least if you showed people before someone else did it.

merpirate

03-24-2012, 09:57 PM

I'm going to attempt to weigh into this if I go into drama zone I am sorry I am going to try to not. Like has been said by a few people here I don't think it is about the theft of the design, I think it is about claiming the idea as original when a earlier version can be seen. For me there is even a great non mer example go to imdb and look at these two films, Repo! the Genetic Opera and Repomen. Now the creators of Repo! made the first version of the "Idea" with a ten minute opera called the nercomerchant's debt.

Later this became a stage show and then the movie (This is the quick version of the history) While they were trying to get the film made one company offered to do the moive but only if they dropped the musical aspects. This same movie company then made Repomen and claimed the idea came from a book which came out later. I love Repo! and I looked into this deeply, to me the theft of the idea without trying to at least admit who it came from is low and cheap for the maker of Repomen to do, especially when you see how close the ideas are really.

A lot of mermaids here have gotten ideas from other places, but most of them admit where they got it. That to me is ok because they are not claiming it to be a new idea of their own. (Read Star's tailmaking thread and watch the videos and she doesn't deny she is using ideas form others she even names a few of them.) Others when shown that the idea might have come from somewhere else and is not something they thought of, they deny it try and change the story and even outright lie. That is dishonorable.

Since people have talked about copying other ideas like they had the idea first I would like to point out a few things that have been around for a while, Shell tops = Hawaiian girl outfits have had them for a while, Scale tops = Scale chain mail for women warriors, saw a rusted one at the first ren faire I was ever at at age 9 (I am at the time of this turning 34 in a few weeks)

OrcaMatt

03-25-2012, 12:55 AM

"Great artists ship" --Steve Jobs

malinghi

03-25-2012, 03:19 PM

Was it a mistake to make this thread? I can't tell if this is a drama thread or not. I think it might be.

OrcaMatt

03-25-2012, 03:25 PM

Was it a mistake to make this thread? I can't tell if this is a drama thread or not. I think it might be.Only if the subject doesn't veer back to a general discussion and not a specific one. I had a long post going about this stuff in general that I'm spinning off into a new thread because the intention is to start a related but different discussion.

ShyMer

03-25-2012, 03:30 PM

I think some of us are just having trouble being objective. I think we did get some quality discussion though.

Mermaid Photine

03-25-2012, 06:45 PM

I get that everyone is working with the same inspirations (Fish and aquatic mammals, mostly. Plus whatever mythology and stories we can find. All of these things are eventually going to overlap.) I agree with the idea that there isn't exactly anything that can be original, but I think that the point is to either provide a new take on whatever already exists or make a tribute to what already does. For example, a tail made to look like Aquamarine's as a tribute because her tail was ah-mazing, or a new take on a lionfish where it is perhaps rainbow coloured instead of lionfish coloured and also mixed with a klingon. (Obviously that is just an example out of the top of my head. Feel free to use it. I’d love to see the results. xD)

If you have an idea that is similar to something out there at the moment, I'd say it would be most courteous and strategic to sit on it for a while for the idea to not be the new thing. Example: Twilight was recently obscenely popular. Someone else might have had a great, wonderful, original vampire idea, but at that time, to use the idea would make the person a bandwagoner. Once the fad has died down would be a good time to use their idea while still retaining the image (I say image because this person couldn’t have invented vampires) of originality. If it were something else besides Twilight, using an idea at the same time could be seen as malicious. Either way, it's not good for business (if you have a business) or image (whether you do or don't have a business.)

I think that it is best to say where you got your inspiration from. People like knowing what artists are thinking of when they create their works. Up to a point, there is nothing wrong with being inspired by something and it doesn’t make the artist’s idea any less original because every idea had to some from somewhere. Perhaps it is the line between a new take and a tribute?

As for how someone can “own” an idea, I’m not entirely sure they can. To stay out of the drama here, I’m going to talk in terms of Neopets, because I used to love that game. I had always wanted to enter into their drawing contests and make pretty pictures of the creatures and code them into the customizable parts of the game, but I don’t think I ever actually did because I was afraid someone was going to take my idea and use it. I guess the best idea for working with the invention of the internet where absolutely anyone can use the idea I had about a Neopet is that I could either talk about it to others in a public place and run the risk that it be taken, or I could work on it, perhaps bounce ideas off a few people I know and show it once I was finished. Neither option is ideal because I quite like bouncing ideas off a large group of people, it’s most fascinating, but I am rather possessive of things.

I will say that all of the talk here about theft of ideas makes me feel more cautious and paranoid than usual, and that stinks.

We seem to condemn idea theft the most when it is most loudly talked about. I think that this is to be expected, as I am pretty sure that no one here is telepathic. The only solution I can think is to have some sort of method to dealing with the theft. Perhaps, first quietly the person whose idea it was –no one else, though- contact (key word being quietly. I think most are sick of the recent influx of drama.) the person who may or may not have stolen the idea and take it from there.

I’m sorry that I cannot offer any solution other than personal moderation. (and that I use so many parentheses.)

Kanti

03-25-2012, 06:46 PM

By calling Raina's post "nonsense" you're instigating.
By saying you're the only one who answered the question you're instigating.
There were tons of answers, many of them were reasonable.

The question was:
So what is theft?
How does one "own" something intangible such as an idea or a method?
And do we condemn acts of theft inconstantly?

Discuss.

No offense, Matty, but your whole post was just geared towards claiming Eric
was a great person and would never copy anything just as much as Raina's
post was geared towards saying Eric is a bad person and would copy anything.
You guys dislike each other so much yet you say almost the exact same things
with the words opposite each other xD

This forum was supposed to analyse the idea of "stealing" something.
What is theft? Can a sketch REALLY be stolen? Though it's created by someone
originally, is it really their property?
Most of the people who responded did answer the question very well, without
being dramatic.

Mermaid Photine

03-25-2012, 06:58 PM

Oi! Guys. This is a drama free post. To be kept drama free.

Answering Kanti,

For a sketch, I'd need a scenario for a bit better of an idea, but I think that if the sketch had some distinct lines, features, or colours (if there are any. I don't think that one can steal a colour scheme alone, though.) then those should not be used if the person is aware of them. I think that the question of being aware of it already existing is also part of the problem. But this cannot ever be proven or disproven, so that's a difficulty.

Kanti

03-25-2012, 07:07 PM

I did get very aggressive in my previous posts, I was a bit on the offense, I guess because
I was so sure that this was an idea of stealing.

I did get a bit attached to the matter since it was an example where someone was posting their
design for a tail and then a handful of days later it appeared on the mertailor's page, to be SOLD.
I suppose that's where I sort of got pretty steamed. If it was just a copy of her tail for personal use,
ok, it'd be an honest mistake or maybe even the extreme form of flattery lol.

Either way, the bottom line to that question is, I believe stealing of someone's ideas is wrong, but we can't
really prevent it. You need to know that once you post something on the internet, it's essentially free game,
unless I guess it's properly copyrighted. People need to be careful with their ideas. It'd be nice if you
could depend on others not to steal/copy, but in the end, you can only blame yourself for not taking the
proper percautions.

@Pandorah: Yea, a sketch is something random. It's hard to prove if it was your idea or even if it was the
"final" version, I suppose. Your examples were very good. I could sketch a lionfish tail and it would be
'meh', not very original. But maybe if it was some crazy pink/purple lionfish tail it'd be a little more towards
the original part of the scale.

Mermaid Photine

03-25-2012, 07:15 PM

Would it be benificial to the community for there to exist a guide on intellectual property and protecting one's ideals and images? My only concern is that it might make some people overly cautious or perhaps occasionally cry wolf. I'd love to have a resource on how I can protect my ideas should I choose to post them. (Oh, but I procrastinate so much...)

I suppose there is a reason why people call the internet the Wild West...

Kanti

03-25-2012, 07:24 PM

Yea, it's really tough. Cause you can always be innocent but there can be people who want to take
advantage of things. In a community such as this, you especially want things to be safe, it;s nice to
be able to show everyone your design so you can get feedback.

Honestly, the best idea would be to make a Deviantart account and post it on there, have the image
watermarked, and then post it here. You'd have to make it a very detailed and specific picture, but I mean,
you can still get the people who did what Eric did. They can claim inspiration from something else, and in
a court, they MAY win. It's really difficult to pin down what's what, and fair is only what the majority claims.

Honestly, mermaiding is supposed to be about fun, isn't it?
I may be offended if someone stole my idea, but I'm still allowed to make my tail, right? So long as it's
everything I ever wanted, why would I complain much?

Mermaid Photine

03-25-2012, 07:36 PM

Fun is most certainly the goal, but sometimes a few people will lose sight of it. I think that if there are a few measures and discussions (like this thread, if we can keep it from being locked.) that can keep the mermaiding community fun, then we ought to do it.

Kanti

03-25-2012, 07:55 PM

I think in the end everyone wants to be recognized for their work. Isn't that why
we're on a forum? I mean, all the information is visible to someone who makes
an account, so if information was all anyone needed they could just look around
and grab what they need.

I think the community is not only a center for people who like the same thing
(mermaids) but it's also an area for getting the extra confidence and push
from friends online that you wouldn't get from your average group of friends.
Honestly, I feel weird sometimes asking people about mermaid tails. I don't
know why, either. I guess it sounds childish to want to make a mermaid tail,
so I don't often talk to people about it. Here I feel like I can without being
made fun of to a degree.

I guess to an extent it could be to gain praise, too. Sometimes you get the
people who stick through the forums, talk, make friends, help people with
problems or concerns, etc. and then you get the people who appear every
now and then to show off their tails or mention they've been featured in a
magazine or something xD

OrcaMatt

03-25-2012, 08:02 PM

I thought somebody (Spindrift?) did an IP overview, for things like what is and isn't copyrightable, copyright vs. trademark vs. patent, things like that. Every time we rekindle the Intellectual Property debate, usually after something happened, it always feels like it's the first time we've broached the subject where in actuality, this is really the third or fourth time. This isn't a new problem, or even the first incident! This too shall pass.

I spun off the reply I was writing here into a separate thread (http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?1673-Towards-Community-Standards-For-Sharing-Discussing-Protection-and-Use-Of-Ideas) when it turned into more of a pragmatic discussion of what all this means on a day-to-day sort of basis rather than the larger issue in general. Most of those points should be familiar to anybody who read basically the same post on mer.yuku almost a year ago :D

Gem Stone

03-25-2012, 08:45 PM

(BACK TO THE ORIGINAL QUESTION)
Thinking it over agian, I wonder if stealing art is even worth it. I mean, normally the original artist is obvious because that's normally the best. Sometimes it's not, but most the time it is. Because when someone changes a few things to make the art 'theirs' it takes away from the quality. Again, this is only sometimes whereas other times those changes could make the original product much better.

Mermaid Lorelei

03-25-2012, 10:10 PM

It's strange to see my name and art all over the place...

Mermaid Sirena

03-25-2012, 11:56 PM

~~I'm completely ignoring all of the drama and mildly dramatic posts above~~

First of all thank you Malinghi for pointing out the similarities between the 13th year tail and Mike's I honestly never noticed that or thought about it. Interesting thought that.

Stealing is stealing you can't really do anything about it and honestly it's expected. Something I've come to learn about here at art school is that theft is apart of the game it's the ones who know the rules though who win.

Nothing is original. Ever. It's honestly all been done before. It's not about coming up with the next best thing never before seen thing, it's about looking at what has already been done and arranging things with your own flair. It's all made the same, just find your own way to assemble the puzzle pieces.

Once that 'original' idea is found you have two options on how to proceed. You may keep it locked with in your heart and mind until you have had the chance to create it and share the finished product with the world, or you may share it. My philosophy that I actually learned from the wonder book A Single Shard (http://www.amazon.com/Single-Shard-Newbery-Medal-Book/dp/0395978270) expresses it as so.

If a man has an idea and works on it in secret away from all others and shares with no one, yet somehow another see's his idea and produces it and claims it as his own before he can show it himself. That is stealing. However if no one starts to replicate his creation until after he has shared it with the world then they are simply coping, which is to be expected.

NOTE: Sharing with the world can be with one person or an entire online forum, it can be a 2 minute conversation, a sketch, or a detailed sculpture. Sharing is expressing your idea to any person other then yourself, as this opens the door for others to copy you. If it's before you are ready to publicly share it, that is unfortunate but the idea was shared to the world and the world is not always fair.

I actually have the recent drama from this community to thank for helping me to solidify my ideals in my own mind and finding a way to express it.

Does this mean I'm against standing up for your idea and suing where it is due for damages and blatant theft? No. But it's really hard to judge and a lot of it is based on the situation and the two personalities of the people.

"Good artists copy. Great artists steal." -Pablo Picasso

I feel what is meant by this is simple, good artists copy what has already been done and what others are doing. Great artists steal ideas and concepts from every where and make it theirs. You can never say a copy is yours as it is a copy, but is not the very nature of stealing and intent to make it your own in some way?

An excellent article that I simply love and I feel expresses inspiration in the art world is 'How to Steal Like an Artist (http://www.austinkleon.com/2011/03/30/how-to-steal-like-an-artist-and-9-other-things-nobody-told-me/)'.

merpirate

03-26-2012, 01:07 AM

While I am sorry for adding to the drama I will say that if some one else didn't falsely state something I wouldn't have added anything beyond my first post, but to continue, I agree that all artist do steal ideas and copy life nautre and even each other, what make sit theft to me is when they lie about it and try to claim that the idea was one thing when it seems so obvious it was not (My repo! Repomen went on about this) I will go on with my first post and try and show more so of what I mean here I am pulling this from Wikipedia as a base point on what I mean This first quote is about Repo! the genetic opera

In 1996, Darren Smith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darren_Smith_%28actor%29) had a friend who was going through bankruptcy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy) and whose possessions were going into foreclosure. Inspired by this, Smith came up with the idea of a future where not only your property could be repossessed, but also your body parts. Smith and Terrance Zdunich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrance_Zdunich) collaborated ideas and plot lines to create "The Necromerchant's Debt".[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repo%21#cite_note-1)

The first version of Repo! was The Necromerchant's Debt, which told the story of a graverobber in debt to a Repo Organ Man. It was first performed at the John Raitt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Raitt) theater. After being such a success, creators Smith and Zdunich expanded on the universe to create all of the storylines that became Repo! The Genetic Opera.

Many changes were made, gradually, to the characters and music. For example, Rotti, in the earliest performances, was not the father to Luigi, Pavi, and Amber. Instead, he was a younger brother to Luigi and Pavi,[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repo%21#cite_note-RottiBrother-2) while Amber was Luigi's daughter.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repo%21#cite_note-HeatherDaughter-3)

Lyrics were adjusted to new arcs, and some songs were dropped altogether, for example, "But This Is Opera!", which was cut out in an effort to change the direction of Blind Mag's character. After years of being performed as a stage play, Repo! was adapted into a 10-minute short film (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_film) directed and financed by Darren Lynn Bousman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darren_Lynn_Bousman) to pitch the idea to film companies. The film starred Shawnee Smith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shawnee_Smith) (Amanda Young (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanda_Young) in the Saw (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saw_%28franchise%29) films) as Amber Sweet (then named "Heather Sweet"), Michael Rooker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Rooker) (Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry:_Portrait_of_a_Serial_Killer)) as the Repo Man, Kristin Fairlie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristin_Fairlie) as Shilo Wallace, Terrance Zdunich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrance_Zdunich) as GraveRobber, and J. Larose (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Larose) as Pavi Largo.

Once Repo! was picked up by Lionsgate, shooting began on September 2007 in Canada.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repo%21#cite_note-4) The film was scheduled to be released on April 25, 2008, but was pushed back to November 7. X Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Japan) member Yoshiki Hayashi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshiki_Hayashi) produced the soundtrack, along with composing one extra track for the film. He also serves as one of the film's producers.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repo%21#cite_note-cinematoday-5) Paul Masse (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Paul_Masse&action=edit&redlink=1) was the cast's vocal coach for the film's soundtrack.

Now in talks Terrance Zdunich (TZ) as well as Darren Smith (DS) both said at one point they went to Universal about the movie, they liked it but wanted to do it with out music TZ and DS said no they wanted to do a opera plain and simple, The next quote comes from wiki about Repomen and the booked it is based off

In June 2007, it was announced that Jude Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jude_Law) and Forest Whitaker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Whitaker) would star in Repo Men (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repo_Men), a movie co-written by Garcia with Garrett Lerner, a writer for Fox Broadcasting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_Broadcasting)'s House (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_%28TV_series%29). The movie is based on Garcia's 2009 original paperback novel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_market_paperback) for HarperCollins, The Repossession Mambo.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Garcia#cite_note-2)

The dates and the book release just plain don't add, they made the book to try and cover the fact they stole the Idea from TZ and DS and when pressed for it tried time and time again to hide what they did, but look up the adds for them look at when the first mention of the necromerchan't debt is and when Eric claims he wrote his book (Or short story as I read somewhere but can't current;y find the website for) it does seem like outright theft of a idea. Or in other words taking some ones idea twisting it and then trying to claim you came up with the whole thing and it has nothing to do with anything else like it in any way. To me it is one thing to copy some one, admit you did and even give them credit for inspiring you. It is another to lie about it, try and claim your idea has nothing to do with them and if fact comes from some one else all together. That is theft of credit and theft of a idea to me and is shameful and dishonorable.

merpirate

03-26-2012, 01:08 AM

And yes I am using non mer examples on purpose to try and not incur more drama

Winged Mermaid

03-26-2012, 01:26 AM

Since some of you insisted on continuing discussion from the last thread, bringing drama to the drama free discussion. I've moved said posts to that thread. Resume respectful drama free posts. Otherwise, I will start suspending people.

MermanJesse

03-26-2012, 01:48 AM

Normally, I stay out of these type of threads. But, I just want to point something out.....

2179 HANES

2180FRUIT OF THE LOOM

2181 2011 MUSTANG

2182 2011 CAMARO

2183 BK WHOPPER

2184 McD BIG N TASTY

The list can go on and on.

Taniwha

03-26-2012, 02:05 AM

I don't normally comment on these sort of things, but I do honestly believe that the drama around this sort of issue is due to people being passionate and hence quite protective about their art and dreams. Which is a lot better than apathy, and yeah well, it's just a hobby who cares kind of attitude. I don't know if this is the case in many of the examples, but ideas do sometimes occur simultaneously to different people (many examples in science of patents being registered on different sides of the world on the same day). I think it's hard on everyone involved when these things aren't discussed and sorted out in a safe way (no personal attacks for instance) because the issue escalates and people get hurt and as said before, it's about something that is very personal and special to them. I don't have any solutions!

merpirate

03-26-2012, 02:10 AM

Yu know I found a video that covers a lot of the issues I think as why it gets under some ones skin, it is about a recent movie that came out and the creator tried to claim it was different first here watch and see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOXSTyQzeqw

Kanti

03-26-2012, 02:38 AM

That clip you just showed is almost EXACTLY how I felt about that Silent Hill movie that came out xD
Silent Hill has always been a very deep videogame with lots of symbolism and while I didn't dislike the movie,
it was a huge crappy story with 5 million plotholes, weird characters that didn't belong there wrapped up with
fanservice.

Either way, that video was entertaining xD I had actually heard of this movie before, I think one of my friends
BEGGED me to go see it with them because the story seems very familiar. The original looks really cool though!
Also, geeze the nerve of the guy at the end to say it was "completely original".

Coradion

04-02-2012, 03:28 AM

I've seen this topic come up all over the place, but I don't think it makes that much of a difference what people here think. If mermaid tails fall under the same legal category as other fashion designs, then the fashion and design sketches someone makes aren't something that you can legally claim as your own. That's why designers are usually so secretive about their work, anybody can take it and call it theirs and I'm pretty sure there's not anything you can do legally, but I'm no lawyer. If you post it online anyone with access to a computer can take your work and see or copy it. Yeah, it might make them a shitty person but I guess the lesson is don't show your designs unless you're okay with someone copying them.

indigoice

05-04-2012, 03:50 AM

artists learn by copying other artists. it's what you do once you learn those skills that makes your own work unique. and the cycle of copying will continue with you. When someone takes something from you to use in their own work, see yourself as a teacher, be flattered. Your idea was worth something to someone else.

art for pleasure and hobby is entirely different than business. when money enters into things it starts to get nasty. I personally think the lines need to be drawn between what is being used for art and the pleasure of the hobby, and what is actually being valued as worth protecting so that money can be made from it. Copyright laws exist for that reason, know the law in your area, and pay to copyright your ideas if they are something you want to base your career and living on.

The root of this conflict is economics and bruised egos not philosophy and no one should be pretending otherwise. If you are not in the business of making tails for a living then this issue is none of your business either. The rest of us should carry on enjoying the hobby and making art any way we see fit. We don't need to know about disagreements or hostility between pro tail makers. That's their own private business and in very bad taste for any of it to be brought up online in a public forum.

AniaR

05-04-2012, 10:02 AM

The rest of us should carry on enjoying the hobby and making art any way we see fit. We don't need to know about disagreements or hostility between pro tail makers. That's their own private business and in very bad taste for any of it to be brought up online in a public forum.

It was brought up here because there have been frequent cases of a certain tail maker drawing a lot of 'inspiration' from things members wrote and drew about, and in some cases fully created. So, it's kinda murky as it isn't simple one pro against another. Though I fully agree, and get very irritated when I see pro tail makers taking jabs at eachother through FB :/

Mermaid Dottie

05-04-2012, 11:58 AM

Bellasea

05-04-2012, 07:55 PM

Nicely said.

*Celine*

05-13-2012, 07:14 AM

I think that some people just confuse inspiration with copying. When I made my tail I was inspired by Hannah Mermaid but I didn't want to copy her tail, you can use the same materials like the Finis Competitor or the vinyl floor matting but that doesn't mean your tail has to look like hers. And I think that people who do copy art don't mean to be "bad", I think they just love the thing (or tail in this case) so much that they want the exact same thing.

I think it's a shame when people copy, not because of the copying itself but because they block their own fantasy and imagination or they think/believe that their own imagination isn't good enough which is a pity. If you block your own imagination you block yourself...

AniaR

05-13-2012, 03:40 PM

I just mainly get frustrated when people try to pretend they didn't draw inspiration from anywhere, it just came to them, when that's clearly not the case. I have a tail inspired by splash, by Merman Jesse, and Mermaid Marla. I tell everyone :p there's nothing unique about the design- it's what I always wanted. I think how I use it makes me unique :D but I dont sit here and say "oh no, I never saw that movie, I dont know who marla and jesse are... I just thought it up on my own". Most people give credit where credit is due because it's professional, respectful, and kind. And people can always re-interpret things in their own way with their own spin. But when someone is insecure enough to get extremely defensive when someone says "oh hey this reminds me of ______" then that's a big red flag being waved around to me that says "yes I totally got it from that but I wont admit it!" and I think that right there is what starts the drama.

People are always going to try and out do each other and improve, and I think it's how we get some of the best product these days. But in a community like ours, that is still so small, I think it's a real low move to make and disrespectful to do something carbon copy of someone else's and then not give them any credit. Thankfully, MOST tail makers out there DO give credit to the original designs.

Kanti

05-13-2012, 06:55 PM

My Mom used to tell me something when I was younger.

"Sometimes your Angels will taddle on you."
She explained that sometimes people come up with the same idea at close to the same time, and if you lollygag, the other person will get the credit. Since I believe inspiration to be divine, I feel that if an idea needs to be in the world- especially if it's time-sensitive -it will get out there. So, sometimes people copy ideas, and are jerks and don't give credit. Other times, however, people have no idea that someone else has thought of the same thing.

I don't think it's even fair to claim that someone copied an idea. You can't really prove that they
did or not. While sometimes there are people who do see something and reproduce it, there are
also people who've had the idea in their head and haven't had the time or initiative to work on it
yet, then like you said, it becomes a race of who can get it out there first.
I think trying to claim something was your original idea is a childish thing. If you yourself know that
you did it first, that should be enough. When things swing around and you manage to make your
own version of your original idea, you can strive to make it even better and unique.
People who spend time trying to prove an idea was theirs first only show that they have trouble coming
up with new ideas so they have to take any credit that they can. Credit isn't everything.

When someone takes something from you to use in their own work, see yourself as a teacher, be flattered. Your idea was worth something to someone else.
Words to live by when you're an artist.

Mermaid Jewel

05-13-2012, 07:11 PM

As an artist, I have a particular issue with this because I mostly do photography. And photography, people believe, does not belong to anyone. Traditional art is a bit different...people treat it more like art that can't be copied. That bugs me more, that people will take it and copy it and not even consider that it does have an artist who owns it.

I think the main thing is to try and keep track and records and be careful. I copyright-symbol all my work now, and as for designs and ideas, I take pictures to document when I drew them sometimes. I also avoid showing people particular designs I don't want to be copied until they've been made. But when people do take your ideas, first off consider the fact that people get inspiration from everywhere. And that they drew their inspiration from you, that means they loved it so much you were a muse. Then consider how they copied it...was it completely or was it just a part (a part means they were probably more inspired than stole)? And a lesson I realized is how they're using it. If someone took my design and tried to sell it, I'd be pissed, definitely. But more often than not, it's a personal use or personal reason. I learned not to really get mad about that. There's really only so much you can do, and sometimes you just have to let things slide.

Spindrift

05-13-2012, 10:45 PM

AniaR

05-13-2012, 10:50 PM

If you were to photograph people you didn't know, does the photograph belong to you or to the subjects? If they request you to destroy the photograph you took do you have to comply?
There are laws to protect photo journalism, maybe more than there should be. But despite people being allowed to do it without permission, certain industries do have policies (like childcare/students you need written photo release forms for any kid to be photographed) and many a legal battle has been won over a person charging someone for taking their photo without permission when it comes to privacy. So my answer to sum up: legally in many situations photojournaism is allowed without permission from subjects, but that doesn't stop subjects from charging and winning when they base their arguments around privacy rights.

Mermaid Jewel

05-14-2012, 08:34 AM

New questions: If you were to photograph people you didn't know, does the photograph belong to you or to the subjects? If they request you to destroy the photograph you took do you have to comply? This has never happened to me but is a question I have wondered about. Same with modelling I guess. Does the photograph of the model belong to the model or to the photographer? If a model hires a photographer for specific images then the photographer has no right to add a watermark to their images, right? Just like in the professional photo studios?

First off, the photo is yours if you take it in a public space. Like, you were in the streets or the subway and you took people you don't know, it was in public and legally you are allowed to do this and own the copyright. However, if you really were to use the picture widely and for a lot, I'd probably ask the person permission, just in case.

And for the model thing, most models sign contracts to either share the rights or give it up to the photographer. In general, though, the two share the rights. Legally, it can get really messy so...personally (I'm not a professional though) I tell them what I'll be doing with the photos ahead of time.

midwesternmermaid

05-21-2012, 08:37 PM

Don't show me anything! I want to come up with something on my own...
(dripping with a goodly deal of sarcasm as we aren't islands ).

midwesternmermaid

05-22-2012, 11:43 AM

I'm a temporary body artist, specializing in henna. These link will take you to the awesome Lady Catherine's site where I basically have learned (almost) everything I need to know henna. This copyright article is specifically for henna body art, but can also apply to other things. I'll need to check my henna forums as well.
http://www.hennapage.com/henna/encyclopedia/copyright/

The thing that I think gets sticky is that there are only so many ways to create a basic form. What's a flower? A center with some petals? How many possible ways can one execute a flower? Vary the number, shape, color and size of the petals; change up the shape of the center. Quite a few ways, but I think it's almost nuts to think you can create something that no one has ever done anything like it before. You might reference artist A for the center, artist B for the color scheme, artist C for the shapes, and so on. This is why I'm hesitant to put henna patterns in the henna kits that I sell. While I may draw up my own pattern myself, I've been influenced by some great artists in the body art community.
With mermaid designs, what's a tail? Come on, how "originally creative" can we get with this? Wrap up the human legs, attach some flukes and fins and make all pretty. Same thing applies to tops and other accessories. What's a top? Something that holds the girls together, so you might as well make it look good. There's only so many ways we can do this (safely). We don't live in bubbles, but we live and breath together.

Overall, this is how I see it. If you create something on your own, it's yours. If you drew inspiration or referenced something, give credit where it is due. Just don't take someone's work and say you did it or try to pass of your work as someone else's.
A current example (from what I've seen so far in the mer community) is the desire to make Hannah-Fraser-inspired tails. Her tails are beautiful! I want one! Her tails are hers and any tail I would make would be mine. It just might be best to briefly glance at her work and then create something based on the impression it left in my mind. In any pix I might post of my creation, it would be fair to reference her work in my comments (design inspired by Hannah Fraser's mermaid tails, based on, [add a hyperlink], etc.). As far as what belongs to her are her own creations and the pictures of her wearing them (also, pictures of her in general. And photos also belong to the photographer, but that's between the two of them.).
I just remembered the Creative Commons Licensing used on DeviantArt: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/.

I hope this helps and this is only my take on it. Please know that I'm not out to step on toes or cause drama. I think the mercommunity is great and we can learn a lot from each other. My bubble is your bubble too.

midwesternmermaid

05-22-2012, 11:55 AM

The second thing I'd like to pose to everybody is whether we are all being hypocritical by selectively condemning some acts of theft, and ignoring others. I do believe that some of the accusations of theft made about Mr. Ducharme are valid. But I haven't seen much acknowledgement of the fact that Eric's work has almost certainly been reverse engineered and adopted by others in the community. On the other hand, the very first tails Mr. Ducharme ever sold were fabric, and he was accused of stealing the idea from FoxMoon Productions. This is a pretty weird accusation, since nowadays the design of a basic fabric tail is considered so simple that the idea that someone could feel possessive of it seems hard to believe. Additionally, Make Van Daal purchased one of the tails used in the 13th Year and used reproductions of its fin in tails that he sold. Is this wrong? Is everyone guilty? Is no one? (emphasis added)

In the ball-jointed-doll community, there's a term for purchasing a doll commercially, make molds and recasting. While for personal use, this may be fine, it's a big NO-NO if one intends to sell the recasts. It's still the original design from the originator, but it's not yours. If you're going to make something and call it your own, you do so from scratch or assemble parts in your own desired fashion. In this case, it looks like a re-cast.

Spindrift

05-22-2012, 12:15 PM

I think if you give credit/get permission it's all good. But what about people who don't whether it is because they don't think to or they don't want to (glory seekers)?

Kanti

05-23-2012, 11:08 AM

Maybe the whole photo thing is similar to being filmed? Maybe you have to sign release forms before
they're allowed to use your photos or something like that. I think when you model, the first time you meet up
with someone you have to sign a bunch of release forms? Not really sure, but I assume the photos belong to
the photographer since they're the ones who produced the "artwork". You were just the subject, so I think if
there were no forms signed that release you of your attachment to the photos maybe they're still somehwat yours?

That's an interesting question. I never thought about that.

midwesternmermaid

05-23-2012, 01:08 PM

I think if you give credit/get permission it's all good. But what about people who don't whether it is because they don't think to or they don't want to (glory seekers)?

Just a kind reminder from the perspective of "out of concern for you" could be helpful. Something like, "Hey, I love your work. It's incredible. What did you reference and what were your inspirations? Just asking because I'd hate to see someone with such beautiful work get in trouble because he or she didn't give credit where it was due." It might be more appropriate via a PM instead of on a forum. Sure, praise the snot out of them publicly (if there is some element in which they legitimately deserve it. We’re not out to butter up and manipulate here) that way he/she knows you like their work and the world knows that too. A gentle call-to-the-carpet might work best privately. Go ahead and add a "I didn't want to make you look bad on any forums, so that's why I wanted to connect with you privately." Hopefully, they'll get the idea that you don't want trouble, you just want to help.
If they respond with a “Oh, yeah! I basically copied so-and-so’s work over here” or a “I liked the color scheme here, the shapes here and the composition here,” remind them that the originators have rights to their work (“did you know…?”). Suggest they give proper credit to their sources (“The most basic thing we can do to show respect to them and their work is to cite them as a reference…”). Offer up some legal smeagal reference they can go to, and it’s probably as simple as web-searching “copyright law”. Make sure your typical person can understand it before passing it on.
Of course, they could get all defensive and all that's left for you to do is to attempt to part ways on a positive note: “Like I said, I don’t want trouble for you or for me. If you honestly feel like you’ve done right by anybody and everybody who might be involved, I know I can’t change your mind. I wish you the best.” Whether you want to keep your eye on them or give them a warning is up to you. Contact the originator only if you know for sure they copied his/her work, encouraging him to connect with the “thief” saying “If you referenced my work, I must insist that you would cite it. I understand that you may have drawn inspiration elsewhere. All I ask is that you give credit it where it is due.” The originator may also warn them that legal action may be taken (only if it’s possible for action to be taken, otherwise it might be reasonable to inform others publicly that images have been stolen and where the originals are).
I know of certain folks who have a habit of completely ripping off other artists’ work (such as taking my photo of my henna work and saying that they did it – hasn’t happened to me personally, but to other henna peeps). I imagine they are contacted privately, and it’s usually a case of “I personally know the artist this belongs to so you had better make this right,” before they are fed to the sharks – “Hey, henna peeps, go look at this person’s site and see what he/she has that belongs to you.”
Of course, a very simple thing artists can do to prevent their images from being stolen is to watermark them like crazy. I haven’t done this with all my images, but I need to. Watermarks can be as simple as the copyright symbol, the year and your name or username. Add terms of use to the bottom.
A Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. I am an artist and a mermaid. These are only suggestions which may or may not work or will need to be adapted to specific situations. Use your head and heart and don’t hold me responsible if something blows up in your face. Please know that I’m not intentionally setting anyone up for failure. Just trying to help.

AniaR

05-23-2012, 01:30 PM

Like I said, there are actual laws when it comes to photos... for both privacy, photojouranlism, and copyright

http://content.photojojo.com/tips/legal-rights-of-photographers/ <-- this link has them in plain english with examples
http://commfaculty.fullerton.edu/lester/writings/chapter5.html <-- this link references some of the legal jargon around privacy

Also, on all reputable art sites for displaying any visual work, it's copyrighted, and there are systems for reporting violation or people blatantly copying or stealing your work. There an infamous mermaid artist whos work is always being stolen (the one who painted the mother mermaid holding the baby) and on sites like deviantART people who even draw their own versions of her work will have it removed for referencing/copying without permission. A lot of legal things come into issue, especially when people try to sell said art work

midwesternmermaid

05-23-2012, 05:14 PM

Also, on all reputable art sites for displaying any visual work, it's copyrighted, and there are systems for reporting violation or people blatantly copying or stealing your work. There an infamous mermaid artist whos work is always being stolen (the one who painted the mother mermaid holding the baby) and on sites like deviantART people who even draw their own versions of her work will have it removed for referencing/copying without permission. A lot of legal things come into issue, especially when people try to sell said art work

Okay, well let me make an example of myself, because I do want to do the right thing. I have this piece placed in my scrapbook and I provide a link to the original artist. I also have contacted her and obtained permission to post on DA. She said that it was okay but that I couldn't sell prints of my work which is fine. I've disabled download which also means I have to put my watermark on full-size view. What do I need to do as far as Creative Commons goes? In my comments, I also ask for suggestions on how I might better handle the situation.

http://midwesternmermaid.deviantart.com/gallery/?catpath=scraps#/d21rp5j

If we have to ask permission for every little thing, then maybe we are better off living in our own little, lonely bubbles. That would be the only way to guarantee we don't unintentionally run away with something that isn't ours. But that also means we don't put anything out there to share.
There are some things that are set up to be referenced. Generally, the originator seems to like to know "Hey, I used it over here." And what are the things that we don't need permission for? Do we need permission to use the color gradient on "mermaid cove 2"? http://www.hannahfraser.com/mermaid/ (as an example). What can we and can't we do with that? It doesn't seem fair that all other gold-to-green-to-blue-to-violet-to-white (or even to take a part of that equation) tails are thrown out of the water. That's just basic color wheel. It would be reasonable they not be made for sale but only for personal use. What if a mer wants to use it for paid mer parties? That mer would've done all the work on the tail themselves. The design just came from someone else.
I think I figured out why I feel so yuck about this. I'm an artist and I don't like being hampered. I might see something and it gets filed away in my mind and its almost like another tool in my toolbox or another color of paint, that I might pull out someday. Let me swim; don't stick me in the mud. That's not to suggest that I won't follow the rules. Sometimes it just seems like it's so hard to do.

merboy78xy

05-23-2012, 07:08 PM

my two cents would be (not that I have any more importance of advice than has already been brought up or discussed) that I like what midwestnmermaid said about casting someone else's original and selling it. I think that there are a lot of people who "copy" a design, but re-sculpt it and make casts of THAT (like seeing a reproduction of the bust of Nefertiti or the David sculpture) and the legalities on it would be a little fuzzy, vs. someone who buys an actual original and casts that to sell.
As far as original ideas, I think it's always been interesting to see a drugstore's brand of whatever that says in the corner: "compare to the ingredients in..." I always feel like, that's fuzzy legality around "stealing" a copywritten formula, etc. And the same goes for movies: like when Transformers came out and before the major motion picture came to DVD in rental stores, you could already buy a cheap knockoff version of transforming robot aliens. Now, knockoffs have been around forever-- from perfume, to purses, clothing, movies, etc. So even though I feel like it's not the "greatest form of flattery"-- as the saying goes-- it seems to be somewhat accepted.
I do think that nearly everyone tries to emulate or "copy" the things they like, or find beautiful. As an artist, I do too. Though I try to steer clear of flat out plagiarism. I find that detestable. And usually when I copy art or something I've seen, it's to teach myself a new technique, style, etc. And is for me to use in my artistic arsenal and meld its influence with my style-- not to mass produce and sell.
So is it wrong? Is it right? I feel that intention has a lot to do with it, and so does the "giving credit where it's due." Art classes have their students "copy" the masters to learn. But they certainly don't sell it as their own.

Also, I AM VERY wary of releasing my ideas into the world, until they are A) fully formed, B) Protected to some degree, and C) I am ready to do so.
I have some new ideas I want to try for mermaid tails, and I'm sure others have thought of them too. Lord knows how many times I've thought of a completely new idea to find out that someone else has come up with the exact same thing. But I haven't seen these ideas out there yet, so I'm sitting on them until I can do them justice and really do em right!

AniaR

05-23-2012, 08:47 PM

putting something on DA with explicit permission from the original artist is fine, but people do have to realize that for a lot of things in the line of copyright it's not whatever people's opinions are, there are laws. There an actual law that states the percentage of the original, so for instance, using colours from a mermaid photo is one thing, lifting that photo and photomanipulating it or drawing it and posting without permission from the original photographer, is a nono. In fact, I know one of Hannahs photogs, he's on DA, and always removing people's photomanipulations. I also think specifically midwesternmermaid, and no offence, but your sort of comparing different issues that have their own different rules, e.g. photography v.s. costume tail making. it sort of makes for a strawman argument when you start pairing it down like that when they're two different things.

On the costume making end of things- there are very very few laws that could even be manipulated to protect- but on the photography end, visual art, painting, music etc there's a LOT. I only spoke about the photo end of it BECAUSE it was specifically asked about photography laws and rules. Totally separate from a tail. I think you could debate the "what ifs" til the cows come home. The general sense I get from the community is to knowingly steal an idea from someone else, or to replicate someone's idea completely and lie about it is a loser thing to do. Everything else is fairly subjective.

midwesternmermaid

05-23-2012, 10:40 PM