View Full Version : Merberry- Making a Urethane Tail
laamberry
04-20-2012, 05:19 PM
So I'm looking to expand my mermaid line a little bit so for the past few months my boyfriend and I have been putting together a mold for scales. The plan is to sculpt a fluke and other bits then cast it all up in urathane. Wish us luck!
2551
2552
MermaidRaegan
04-20-2012, 05:31 PM
I can't wait to see how this turns out! Are ou looking to start selling these sorts of tails along with your latex ones?
laamberry
04-20-2012, 07:45 PM
I can't wait to see how this turns out! Are ou looking to start selling these sorts of tails along with your latex ones?
Yup, exactly!
Mermaasai
04-20-2012, 08:13 PM
Hmmm I'm interested in seeing these results.
What are you thinking will be the pricepoint for this kind of tail?
And you know... I was wondering if you would do a tail but not paint it.
I'm so persnickity about my colors that I always end up repainting just about everything any way.
Would it be less costly to have a base tail made with out the paint job, just a base color?
laamberry
04-20-2012, 08:44 PM
Hmmm I'm interested in seeing these results.
What are you thinking will be the pricepoint for this kind of tail?
And you know... I was wondering if you would do a tail but not paint it.
I'm so persnickity about my colors that I always end up repainting just about everything any way.
Would it be less costly to have a base tail made with out the paint job, just a base color?
The price is still up in the air really, it'll come down to how much it'll end up costing to produce :] and yes, the price would absolutely be lower un-painted.
Nemefish
04-20-2012, 08:54 PM
omg Ive always wanted a Urethane tail!!!!!!!! XD
MermaidRaegan
04-21-2012, 06:12 PM
I will be followed this thread like a thirteen year old girl around Justin Beiber.
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR8j9ryZGz33DrOUVDkUcD0-GTLXv7ZWHmwlGalw_BfaTkOlTHBhg
laamberry
04-21-2012, 06:48 PM
2556
Pouring the mold! I'm really excited :> I think we're going to cast a few sheets onto woven fabrics and try to make some clothes out of it!
Ilonka
04-21-2012, 06:55 PM
how did you make the scales for the sheet? Its huge!
laamberry
04-21-2012, 07:33 PM
We had a friend of ours use his laser cutter to cut out strips of scales. Then we just glued them down to a piece of mdf :)
OrcaMatt
04-22-2012, 01:45 AM
We had a friend of ours use his laser cutter to cut out strips of scales. Then we just glued them down to a piece of mdf :)Oh, nice! I was going to use Ponoko to do that.
Kanti
04-22-2012, 12:37 PM
Wow Laamberry!! That scale sheet is massive!
What exactly is urethane though? xD Is it better in the properties sense than silicone? Or is
it more cost effective, etc?
So far it looks amazing! You'll do a great job! :')
laamberry
04-22-2012, 06:22 PM
Urethane is lighter,moves more fluidly, is more cost effective, and it's properties can be more easily manipulated. It's more easily pigmented, brighter, they make metallic powders for it, etc, etc. all while being just a durable and strong as silicone. :)
Kanti
04-22-2012, 06:50 PM
Ohhhh cool!
Where do you buy that stuff? o.O
Also is it safe and junk? I've never heard of it
mermaidcatherine
04-22-2012, 09:44 PM
Urethane is lighter,moves more fluidly, is more cost effective, and it's properties can be more easily manipulated. It's more easily pigmented, brighter, they make metallic powders for it, etc, etc. all while being just a durable and strong as silicone. :)
Oooh that sounds wonderful! I know you said the price is still up in the air, but do you know if it will be in the hundreds range or more in the thousands?
laamberry
04-22-2012, 10:08 PM
Ohhhh cool!
Where do you buy that stuff? o.O
Also is it safe and junk? I've never heard of it
Smooth-on sells it. And it's entirely safe, a lot of production companies use it for props and costumes!
laamberry
04-22-2012, 10:09 PM
Oooh that sounds wonderful! I know you said the price is still up in the air, but do you know if it will be in the hundreds range or more in the thousands?
The goal is to have them available for under a thousand dollars :]
Mermaid Lorelei
04-22-2012, 10:39 PM
So far this is all I have found about the comparisons of urethane to silicone.
The urethane rubber does have a shorter shelf life. It also deteriorates the more you use the mold, faster than silicone rubber. Urethanes tend to be a more advanced-user material too, so if this is your first venture into mold making, it may prove difficult to work with. In addition to this, even though they are "flexible", bending the mold off the product over and over (even just a few times) allows for the molecules to stretch and break, causing tiny tears pretty early in relation to silicone rubbers (silicones are specifically designed for a longer life over repeated flexing). I started on Urethane rubbers, and once I went to silicone, I was hitting myself for not trying it first.
This is, of course, talking about molds, but it is the same material, so the case can be made for tails too. Basically, it appears to deteriorate faster than silicone (with constant use). Not that I'm discouraging the use of urethanes. I just thought some of you might be curious, as we don't seem to have much in the way of information on urethane rubber.
laamberry
04-23-2012, 01:16 AM
So far this is all I have found about the comparisons of urethane to silicone.
This is, of course, talking about molds, but it is the same material, so the case can be made for tails too. Basically, it appears to deteriorate faster than silicone (with constant use). Not that I'm discouraging the use of urethanes. I just thought some of you might be curious, as we don't seem to have much in the way of information on urethane rubber.
In general, silicone is a mold making material and urethane is a casting material. I actually find it a little bizarre that so many people use silicone as it's just not very good when it comes to being cast, at least not in comparison to urethane-- yes, a urethane mold may not hold up as long as a sillicone mold but that's because it isn't meant for that. Ueathane is very durable, it's what most rubbery car parts are made of! Between my boyfriend and I we have a good 20+ years in prop and casting experience, there's no need to worry that we don't know what we're doing :)
To give some of you a better idea of what this stuff looks like, this suit is made out of urethane:
2557
Though we're fully capable of making sillicone and latex tails with the mold, it just isn't the right stuff.
laamberry
04-23-2012, 01:22 AM
The mold turned out great!
2559
Mermaid Lorelei
04-23-2012, 01:25 AM
Haha, not trying to say you don't know what you're doing. I just thought I'd drop a bit of information for those who had no idea what so ever. :> Heck, even Thom Shouse uses urethane for his tails.
laamberry
04-23-2012, 01:33 AM
Haha, not trying to say you don't know what you're doing. I just thought I'd drop a bit of information for those who had no idea what so ever. :> Heck, even Thom Shouse uses urethane for his tails.
No worries, I know you're just trying to help :) it can be a little misleading when stuff is out of context though. Where did you grab that particular paragraph, btw?
Mermaid Lorelei
04-23-2012, 01:36 AM
http://www.405th.com/showthread.php/26925-Urethane-vs.-Silicone
I've found quite a bit of helpful information here.
Kanti
04-23-2012, 03:19 AM
Laamberry, the attachment doesn't work.
Also, seems urethane is a bit mysterious to me. Still, I'm open to anything :'P
I'd love to see how the tail comes out to see how well it works.
laamberry
04-23-2012, 04:50 AM
http://www.405th.com/showthread.php/26925-Urethane-vs.-Silicone
I've found quite a bit of helpful information here.
Oh the 405th! Fun place, it's where I first got into armor building.
Laamberry, the attachment doesn't work.
Also, seems urethane is a bit mysterious to me. Still, I'm open to anything :'P
I'd love to see how the tail comes out to see how well it works.
I think I fixed it D:
Like Lorelei said, Thom Shouse ( the guy who made the tails for Splash) makes his tails out of Urathane. I hate to hot link his photos but if you google him or "mermaidrentals" you can see what a urathane tail is like :]]
MermaidRaegan
04-23-2012, 09:51 AM
So pretty! I'm so excited, you have no idea!
Mermaasai
04-23-2012, 10:55 AM
It looks awesome. Really looking forward to the final product. I'm more convinced every day.
Kanti
04-23-2012, 12:08 PM
Wow! They look great! There design is so flawless. I guess that's the advantages of using a
lazer xD
And haha I don't have any doubts! I assume you know much more about it than I do. I'm just
very curious. I've never heard of this stuff before! But then again, there's lots of 'urethanes' in
plastics so I automatically think of that.
I think it's already looking great so far~
Quick question though, what's the stretch on that material? o.O
Winged Mermaid
04-23-2012, 01:18 PM
Those scales are amazing! I am really looking forward to seeing your progress! I know if you continue through with selling them you'll be the only other tail maker besides Thom who makes them in urathane! I know there was a thread about urethane material before, and it seemed that you REALLY had to know what you're doing in order to mix and work with it, so it's not like just anyone can jump in and decide to make a tail out of it.
Interested in learning more about this material for sure. I wonder if there are any more common made things made out of urethane that people could kind of get the idea of what it's like? If someone wanted to know what neoprene was like there are tons of every day objects made from it (drink holders, CD cases, athlete socks, ect) and the same with latex and silicone. Is there anything common or even seimi common that is made out of this that we could get a feel for it?
laamberry
04-23-2012, 02:36 PM
Wow! They look great! There design is so flawless. I guess that's the advantages of using a
lazer xD
And haha I don't have any doubts! I assume you know much more about it than I do. I'm just
very curious. I've never heard of this stuff before! But then again, there's lots of 'urethanes' in
plastics so I automatically think of that.
I think it's already looking great so far~
Quick question though, what's the stretch on that material? o.O
Great question! Urethanes can be made in a huge range of stretchynesses (that is so not a word, huh?) from not moving at all to being able to stretch forever. It's just a matter of finding the best one :] The boyfriend and I layed up a test layer last night that we'll be able to show you guys soon!
Those scales are amazing! I am really looking forward to seeing your progress! I know if you continue through with selling them you'll be the only other tail maker besides Thom who makes them in urathane! I know there was a thread about urethane material before, and it seemed that you REALLY had to know what you're doing in order to mix and work with it, so it's not like just anyone can jump in and decide to make a tail out of it.
Interested in learning more about this material for sure. I wonder if there are any more common made things made out of urethane that people could kind of get the idea of what it's like? If someone wanted to know what neoprene was like there are tons of every day objects made from it (drink holders, CD cases, athlete socks, ect) and the same with latex and silicone. Is there anything common or even seimi common that is made out of this that we could get a feel for it?
The problem is that plenty of things are made of urethane but the range of effects you can get with it is so broad that I really hesitate to point you to one because it still won't be similar. Urathane is used for things from hard car bumpers to soft foams! If I think of something I'll post it here :] and yeah, it's got a pretty steep learning curve and only 20 minutes of work time. Not super good odds when it's about $50 a quart and requires a lot of mixing lol.
Mermaasai
04-23-2012, 04:32 PM
So- did you say you were going to line the tail with material on the inside or are you going to leave it just urethane? And how well does it hold paint? I mean- latex painted tails tend to crack and peel over time and Ive got no experience with a silicone painted tail.
Do you use a mix of urethane and pigmented paint or?
I'm just wondering because as I had mentioned, I will probably want to order one with no paint and just a base color, so when I paint it will have a better idea of what that would entail. (heehee pun intended)
laamberry
04-23-2012, 04:59 PM
So- did you say you were going to line the tail with material on the inside or are you going to leave it just urethane? And how well does it hold paint? I mean- latex painted tails tend to crack and peel over time and Ive got no experience with a silicone painted tail.
Do you use a mix of urethane and pigmented paint or?
I'm just wondering because as I had mentioned, I will probably want to order one with no paint and just a base color, so when I paint it will have a better idea of what that would entail. (heehee pun intended)
The urethane is on top of a thin spandex (we're still figuring out which fabric is best)!As for paint, the urethane itself is pigmented. The best way to paint the scales would be to mix up pigmented urethane and thin it with mineral spirits, then airbrush it like regular paint. I'm also curious about premade urethane paints, I'm not sure how well they work just yet.
AniaR
04-23-2012, 05:08 PM
soooo awesome. Soooo proud of you
laamberry
04-25-2012, 03:53 PM
soooo awesome. Soooo proud of you
That's such a sweet thing for you to say! Thank you so much :D
We did a quick test swatch just to have something to show you guys. 2590
ShyMer
04-25-2012, 04:04 PM
Those scales look gorgeous!
mermaidcatherine
04-25-2012, 04:38 PM
It's so pretty!
It looks really thin though- how durable is it?
Mermaasai
04-25-2012, 05:07 PM
^ yes, thin. Durability. hmm
^.^ Love how blatant the scales are though, really popping.
Are you bonding it to the spandex in some way?
laamberry
04-26-2012, 12:05 AM
We cast this test in a kind of urethane that doesn't stretch too much, otherwise I would stretch it for you :P it's super durable! Think rubber car parts. Te best part about it being so thin is how close it'll be to your real skin.As for the fabric, the urethane actually soaks through the spandex itself so it's sort of melded together. Hope I answered your questions! :D
Ayla of Duluth
04-26-2012, 12:17 AM
Can this urethane be transparent? I don't know this material too well, but it looks hella impressive.
laamberry
04-26-2012, 12:53 AM
Can this urethane be transparent? I don't know this material too well, but it looks hella impressive.
Yes, it absolutely can be ;]
ShyMer
04-26-2012, 08:30 AM
Ooh, how exciting! How does the price of the Urethane compare to silicone or latex? Also how does it compare in heaviness? I love that you can cast it so thin and use spandex as the base.
laamberry
04-26-2012, 04:39 PM
Definitely more expensive than latex but not as expensive as silicone! It's extremely light weight and not as gummy feeling as silicone. It's a very dense material but since it can be so strong at such a thin layer, it ends up really light! If you were going to cast it really thick (say, a few millimeters) it would probably end up pretty darn heavy.I'm only speculating though.
Mermaid Marla
04-27-2012, 01:45 PM
That test swatch looks fabulous! Looking forward to seeing your progress!! Very exciting!!
Mermaid Nyla
04-27-2012, 06:05 PM
thank you for posting pictures for everyone to see! they make understanding things way easier. i can wait to see this tail. :)
Mermaasai
04-29-2012, 03:30 PM
Curious: how is the stretch in urethane?
I mean, I like a tight top and ended up sewing a elastic band into my latex tail to keep it snug, will this be possible in the urethane tail or can it be made tight enough for my small waist but stretchy enough for my big thighs?
Also- would it save on cost if I sent my current monofin to you to build into the tail?
(I'm trying to cut cost as much as possible, wedding july and saving and blag.. but I want a really durable tail for keywest to advertise while on vacation for the snorkel tour boats etc.)
ShyMer
04-29-2012, 08:17 PM
Whoa, like different levels of stretchiness in parts of the tail? :O
Mermaasai
04-29-2012, 08:40 PM
Mono I'm just curios if it will be tight enough around my waist but still stretchy enough to work over my thighs.
Mermaid Rillia
04-30-2012, 03:56 AM
Thats a good question Mermaasai, I too have that concern. I dance so it goes without being said that i have thunder thighs. lol. I would like to know the same thing.
Also, Congrats on your engagement/ upcoming wedding. :)
Mermaasai
05-11-2012, 08:25 PM
Any updates on this?
Rebecca
08-02-2012, 03:30 PM
I absolutely adore you and your tails laamberry!! I finally found some realistic mermaid tails that are affordable! Im saving up for a tail and im excited about the urethand scales! Does it make it look mote realistic?
Mermaid Saphira
08-02-2012, 03:49 PM
I would love to hear more about your progress
merboy78xy
08-04-2012, 11:56 PM
yes! It is very exciting! Very pleased to hear all this info! Thanks so much!! :D
Mermaid Crystal
08-12-2012, 06:29 PM
Wicked scales!
SilverSiren
08-17-2012, 09:29 AM
I am concerned about it not having the desirable stretch that silicone does. Not to get too TMI but has anyone ever used one of those Urethane condoms? There awful, cause they don't stretch hardly at all. I can see that squeezing into a tail made of Urethane could be very frustrating and painful due to the limited stretch of Urethane. Don't get me wrong, just my opinion. Also I found this info from a Urethane supplier " Urethane is a plastic. It doesn't have the longevity and resiliency of rubber. They don't make rubber bands or tires out of urethane (plastic), because urethane can't stretch and return to shape like rubber. In short, when worked, they lose resiliency and shape. The just won't give you the same comfort a year from now that they do in the showroom." Great concept but it seems to me in theory that it would not work well.:thinks:
Spindrift
08-17-2012, 03:29 PM
I am concerned about it not having the desirable stretch that silicone does. Not to get too TMI but has anyone ever used one of those Urethane condoms? There awful, cause they don't stretch hardly at all. I can see that squeezing into a tail made of Urethane could be very frustrating and painful due to the limited stretch of Urethane. Don't get me wrong, just my opinion. Also I found this info from a Urethane supplier " Urethane is a plastic. It doesn't have the longevity and resiliency of rubber. They don't make rubber bands or tires out of urethane (plastic), because urethane can't stretch and return to shape like rubber. In short, when worked, they lose resiliency and shape. The just won't give you the same comfort a year from now that they do in the showroom." Great concept but it seems to me in theory that it would not work well.:thinks:
The first time I read through your post I interpreted it to mean that they have showrooms for condoms, and was all, "what...?"
On the topic though, didn't the Mertailor claim to have made a urethane tail before? It was a light purple one.
In addition I've also heard of "urethane foams". And there seems to be results for "urethane rubber". I think it is likely that different grades of urethane can be used for different applications. I highly doubt the urethane used for condoms would hold up for making props or something like a tail.
Winged Mermaid
08-17-2012, 03:58 PM
I don't recall Mertailor making one. Can anyone find a link? Thom Shouse's tails are made of urethane. Some would criticize the look and fit of his tails. It appears to me through various people's experiences and ads and such that if the tail is made for the person that's not an issue though. The majority of the people in the community who have worn his tails the tails were rented (after all, otherwise they run upwards of $6,000), so they were not nearly the best fit. But I guess we'll see what happens if laamberry's project runs its course!
That being said the thickness (or lack of) could be an issue. To keep the tail from either being really expensive or not as realistic (clinging to/not hiding legs ankles and other areas), I'd supplement the thickness of the urethane with another material like neoprene. That way you can still cast the urethane thin but have thickness enough to give it a realistic appearance. This is a popular way of getting around the expense (and possible weight issue) of casting materials thick. Just a though for you laamberry.
Spindrift
08-17-2012, 04:32 PM
See this was the picture I was talking about, but I can't find where I read it was made of urethane. I could be wrong, but I'll continue to look:
http://quietpaths.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/mermaidsmall1.jpg
I am concerned about it not having the desirable stretch that silicone does. Not to get too TMI but has anyone ever used one of those Urethane condoms? There awful, cause they don't stretch hardly at all. I can see that squeezing into a tail made of Urethane could be very frustrating and painful due to the limited stretch of Urethane. Don't get me wrong, just my opinion. Also I found this info from a Urethane supplier " Urethane is a plastic. It doesn't have the longevity and resiliency of rubber. They don't make rubber bands or tires out of urethane (plastic), because urethane can't stretch and return to shape like rubber. In short, when worked, they lose resiliency and shape. The just won't give you the same comfort a year from now that they do in the showroom." Great concept but it seems to me in theory that it would not work well.:thinks: i used those condoms when my husband at the time was allergic to latex. and we never ran into those issues. maybe you need to buy ones that aren't so cheap. as a hair dresser i use urethane gloves daily and again never had stretch issues. its all about the quality of the material not the simple fact that its urethane rubber. i think it will be ok as long as it is a uniform structure. but i am curious what kind of urethane lamberry is using? what brand and all that?
Spindrift
08-18-2012, 02:32 AM
See this was the picture I was talking about, but I can't find where I read it was made of urethane. I could be wrong, but I'll continue to look:
http://quietpaths.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/mermaidsmall1.jpg
Found it. I guess I'm wrong. He claims it's latex.
SilverSiren
08-18-2012, 03:03 AM
The first time I read through your post I interpreted it to mean that they have showrooms for condoms, and was all, "what...?"
On the topic though, didn't the Mertailor claim to have made a urethane tail before? It was a light purple one.
In addition I've also heard of "urethane foams". And there seems to be results for "urethane rubber". I think it is likely that different grades of urethane can be used for different applications. I highly doubt the urethane used for condoms would hold up for making props or something like a tail.
LOL! It didn't occur to me it might be read that way. I guess I was thinking of a urethane that is supposed to stretch to form the body in someway and my first thought was those horrific condoms! lol.
SilverSiren
08-18-2012, 03:07 AM
i used those condoms when my husband at the time was allergic to latex. and we never ran into those issues. maybe you need to buy ones that aren't so cheap.
At the time, all that was available were the ones made by Trojan, and they were not cheap to buy!
SilverSiren
08-18-2012, 03:20 AM
Sorry for all the posts, but I think someone said that Thom Shuose made the Splash tail out of urethane? Maybe I should send him an email and see if that's true and ask how the stretch was? I read the fun little movie facts on that movie and read that Daryl Hannah had to be superglued into that tail! Resource for the facts here http://www.fast-rewind.com/making_splash.htm. So I wonder, if that tail was made of urethane and its supposed to have stretch, why did they have to glue the poor girl into it? Of course, I am leaving room for the fact that this was the 80's and urethane may not have been all that well developed and great in those days? I'm just curous here and basing my thoughts on what I know at the moment about it.
magnum made good ones back then but i had my tubes tied 10 years ago so who knows how they are now and who makes the best ones. i didnt mean any offence
At the time, all that was available were the ones made by Trojan, and they were not cheap to buy!
SilverSiren
08-18-2012, 03:47 AM
magnum made good ones back then but i had my tubes tied 10 years ago so who knows how they are now and who makes the best ones. i didnt mean any offence
Oh, no! None taken, I was just saying those are the ones I had experience with! I'm half tempted to buy a pack now to see if they are any better, not that I need them, but I am curious if they stretch more now. And just so you know, I very rarely take offense to things, it takes a lot to make me mad... I probably shoulda put a "lol" at the end of that so you didn't think I was getting pissy, sorry.
Spindrift
08-18-2012, 12:36 PM
Yeah condoms would be a really strange thing to be pissy over, especially on this forum. >.>
Ayla of Duluth
08-18-2012, 01:10 PM
well this is an odd conversation to walk in on...
Mermaid Annariea
08-18-2012, 01:10 PM
oh, the interesting conversations on mernetwork.
lol. xD
Mermaid Saphira
08-18-2012, 01:31 PM
what an unusual converstation O_o
merboy78xy
08-19-2012, 02:56 AM
I saw a guy pull a condom over his head! Talk about stretch!
SilverSiren
08-19-2012, 05:07 AM
I saw a guy pull a condom over his head! Talk about stretch!
LOL! How about this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPoFzNnmrCs&feature=related
We are getting waaaayyy off topic now mers... lol
Spindrift
08-19-2012, 10:03 PM
In my AP Environmental Science class back in high school a few years ago, there was an assignment that involved making condom balloons and throwing them at people. Something to do with overpopulation... I don't even know lol :|
AniaR
08-19-2012, 10:06 PM
uh... huh...?
New York Mermaid
08-19-2012, 10:35 PM
So hows that tail making going for you over there lamberry..lol
SeaGlass Siren
11-17-2012, 08:06 AM
I ordered one a few weeks ago. Heard from her on the 30th but she disappeared after that. Anyone know how she's doing?
Yeah, anymore updates on the tail?
SeaGlass Siren
11-30-2012, 10:15 AM
update: She's almost finished making my tail! she'll be sending me an image of it on saturday and i'll post the image up on here :)
MerEmma
11-30-2012, 10:26 AM
Can't wait. :D
Very cool! Can't wait tto see how the new technique is working out :)
Mer_Adella
11-30-2012, 11:02 AM
LOL! How about this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPoFzNnmrCs&feature=related
We are getting waaaayyy off topic now mers... lol
that...was...HILARIOUS!!!!!! I couldn't breath I was laughing so hard. first of all it shocked me. secondly, his excitement is kinda creepy/odd/hilarious which got me laughing so hard. love lvoe love
Mermaid Wesley
11-30-2012, 05:09 PM
OH MY GOD HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
That... was... GLORIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol:
SeaGlass Siren
12-06-2012, 10:32 AM
update! ok so i asked her for the projected date the tail will be done. here is her response and i quote...
"Yes, this week! I'm working on your tail right now and should be painting tomorrow :) I will have photos in the morning!"
YAY!
SeaGlass Siren
12-11-2012, 02:22 PM
i posted the photos in the SHoW Us YoUR TaiLS THReAd!!! (http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?1389-SHoW-Us-YoUR-TaiLS-THReAd%21%21%21)
it's not urethrane it looks like, but i paid very little money for it so meh. it looks pretty :)
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.