Monofin for Silicone Tails in the Ocean

[Finny]

Hello all!

TLDR: I'm making my own silicone tail and was looking for thoughts/experience of monofins that would work in the ocean.

The tail can be designed around whatever fin shape - that's fine. And I'm not super picky about whether or not it has ridges, though no ridges are a plus. My main concerns are foot comfort/fit, price and the ability to give adequate propulsion with a variety of fluke sizes/shapes/extra fins all over the tail. I have no idea if this is even possible, but if I could roll the fin and pull it out of the tail for cleaning and transport, that would also be amazing. I'm also looking at something that isn't a rubber fin (so the Mahina is out) because I don't need the tail to be any heavier than necessary.

I might not ever actually swim in the ocean, but I want the option to if I want to. Imo it's better to get stuff that scales easily rather than getting a 'good enough' thing and then having to buy another thing later.

The Rapid appeals to me because of the price point, but if it won't work with a silicone tail in the ocean, it's dead to me :P
When I used to do SCUBA, I favored the somewhat floppier fins rather than the massive stiff paddles, but I've no experience with tails so maybe floppy monofins in a big silicone monstrosity would be hazardous in the event of current?

I am US based, but it seems like ordering from the places in Estonia are still cheaper than getting a competitor (which is kind of sad), so not opposed to going international.

Was also curious what people thought on the different types of foot pockets/straps if they had options. I low-key refuse to get anything with adjustable foots straps because they seem really hard to adjust in a full silicone tail and I have a history of the straps loosening and fins literally falling off my feet while diving (scuba, MANY years ago). I've heard the full foot coverings show less heel in the final fin, which is desirable. I just have weird feet and buying shoes/fins online scares the bananas out of me, especially since they're expensive.

For grins, here's my favorite fluke sketch I've done so far (right side of sketch) :https://www.instagram.com/p/CCrf-bxD_g0/
Not sure if the design is feasible to actually use, but I'm *fairly* certain I could make the thing to my satisfaction at least. I was thinking the fluke would be solid around the monofin to hide it (so no cutting of the monofins) and the rest of the tail would be long but deliberately covered in holes (aesthetics and theoretical drag reduction?). I kind of just like creepy macab designs, but thoughts are welcome on the sketch as well.

Thanks guys!

[fabianfrz]

With that many holes in it it will not work without damaging the monofin and for the style you need a v shape of the end that will not work well so I think your best choice is extending a monofin with plastic inlays because the monofin might break due to the stress on it.

Is you look at the European market, there are waterways, Leaderfins, Magictail, Mermaid Kat Shop and some French vendors (and maybe some I don't know), who offer good fins. Specialfins exist as well but I don't know where they are.

[Finny]

Special fins is Estonia according to the master thread, but I'll definitely look into the other brands as well.

And why would the holes damage the monofin? I wasn't planning on cutting the monofin at all, just adding the holes to the silicone after the fin ends. Also I *think* I could get away with more or less any shape monofin, though the v shaped probably would be easier. But I actually designed the sketch roughly around the Competitor shape and just made a little extended nub from the main body of the tail that would extend over the fin to create the illusion of a different shape. Theoretically at least :P In practice who knows.

Thanks for your thoughts :)

[fabianfrz]

If you have holes in the blade, you will have more force that will create a torque and on the parts more behind will put force on the closer parts as well. It yould split at the holes or it will move asymmetrical so you will not have much fun. If you are careful, you can safely cut a v shape into it but you need to make sure that the v is not sharp and round enough.

[Finny]

I don't plan on cutting the blade at all though.
Are you saying long floppy stuff extending past the blade of the fin can break the fin??? I was planning on treating the silicone tail basically like a generic fabric tail with some extra cloth decorations on the end, except instead of fabric, everything would be silicone, so it would just fit over the unmodified fin like a sock/glove.

[Merman Storm]

All those thin bits on your fin will need some sort of internal structure to hold them out to the side. Otherwise they will just by blown back by the flowing water and look like the strands of a mop head, streaming in the flow.

As for the monofin, I do not know of any fin you cannot use in the ocean. Ive used a FinFun in the ocean. It works fine, as does a Mahina the Two tails fin, and Mertailor's Spellbound.

[Finny]

I was planning on adding some supports into the little flippy bits, but tbh I'm also tempted to let them blow in the breeze so to speak :P I kind of WANT the tail to rip with time, so the idea that it's so mangled it can't self support is intriguing to me in an odd way. Still haven't actually decided if I'm actually going with that design though. Yay indecision.

And that's fair - I feel like I've just heard enough people suggesting a stronger fin to combat the ocean currents, especially with silicone tails since they're heavier. It also seems like not a bad idea if I put ginormous flukes or extra fins on the tail. But also I like swimming as fast as I possibly can, so the extra propulsion is appealing for that as well.

[theMerFanc]

I believe you know my views by now on the few fins I've interacted with. I would suggest the rapid but take the heel straps off and toss them (or sell it, I know they break, people might be looking for a replacement). Once it's in the silicone and the tail is on, it won't slip around or need straps to hold it in place.

That being said, I am sure your magical mind can come up with a way to do it, but I have never heard of a full silicone tail with a removable fin. The silicone is typically applied directly to the fin and it encases it completely. Like laminating a sheet of paper.

I think you'd be able to fit a rapid into your fin design easily and get the holes right at the edges without damaging or cutting the fin at all. As for extra fins, the more you add the more drag you'll get. But I fucking love extra fins so I always say add em on!

[fabianfrz]

That being said, I am sure your magical mind can come up with a way to do it, but I have never heard of a full silicone tail with a removable fin. The silicone is typically applied directly to the fin and it encases it completely. Like laminating a sheet of paper.

Mermaid Kat sells some where you can take out the monofin as "take away" tails. They are a bit cheaper and you can transport them easier.

[Finny]

Hum. Thanks.
I remember reading like one place where someone was able to roll the fin up and squish it out the ankle hole of the tail, but frankly that seems like a nightmare that would end up with me either ripping the tail in half or getting the fin stuck some weird way.
Perhaps if I ever make more fins I'll try to find a good way to make a tail with a removable fin. That would be great :P
Thanks again for the thoughts!

[fabianfrz]

Hum. Thanks.
I remember reading like one place where someone was able to roll the fin up and squish it out the ankle hole of the tail, but frankly that seems like a nightmare that would end up with me either ripping the tail in half or getting the fin stuck some weird way.
That must be another vendor because Mermaid Kat has that only for fabric tails. The take away are closed via buttons on the end of the fluke.
I can tell you that that works well with the fabric tails so it might work with silicone tails as well but then you need again a drainage system.

[Finny]

Probably. I don't remember where I saw that, just in regards to removing a fin with a silicone tail. Tbh I haven't looked all that much into fabric tails.
I could add snaps/buttons I suppose, but I think for now I'm just going to encase the fin permanently in the tail because effort.
And I was going to include drainage channels anyway :)

[Finny]

Reached out to a few companies and the Leaderfin person recommended the Junior Sport with a soft blade.
Curious to see what the other folks say :)
Also I found my clay at last so I might do some random practice test scales and start a tentative build thread at some point.

[Mermaid Fenicia]

I use a leaderfin junior soft blade monofin and I realy like it, but my favorite is my Triton monofin (smallest version of the Hydra, Minos is even bigger)

[Finny]

I use a leaderfin junior soft blade monofin and I realy like it, but my favorite is my Triton monofin (smallest version of the Hydra, Minos is even bigger)

Oh. Thanks!
Are you using the leaderfin junior with a silicone tail or fabric?
I saw the triton, but it's a bit more than I was hoping to spend (and it has adjustable straps which drive me sort of nuts). Out of curiosity, what do you like about it?

[fabianfrz]

Reached out to a few companies and the Leaderfin person recommended the Junior Sport with a soft blade.

I have a hard Hyper and it is really a great monofin and now I have a waterway fins Mermaid Tail Monofin in medium as well. Soft does bend a lot while a hard one is faster. They recommend me a medium one and I went with the hard one and never regret it. For mermaiding you should only choose between soft and medium. Don't forget that latex and silicone also have some resistance as the fin will be thicker.

[Finny]

now I have a waterway fins Mermaid Tail Monofin in medium as well. Soft does bend a lot while a hard one is faster. They recommend me a medium one and I went with the hard one and never regret it. For mermaiding you should only choose between soft and medium.

Ohh! Thanks for the info!!
Do you have any thoughts on the mermaid tail for efficiency compared to the hyper? I like it for the shape but I'm not sure I care enough to shell out the extra money for it.

I was also considering a medium instead of soft just because I like the extra power/option to go faster if I want to. But I also like the idea of a floppier look on the soft. Mostly I just want it to be ocean safe.
I feel like they recommended me the soft because I'm a tiny person (about 112 lbs).

[K Swim]

Ok, so I read through this thread so far and now I am wondering..... Will a normal silicone tail not do so well in sea water?

I would think that you would just need to rinse it really well after use, unless the damage starts happening right away.

[Finny]

I could be ENTIRELY wrong as I have no experience with any kind of tail, but from what I've been reading, they're totally fine in the ocean if you rinse them afterwards. Plenty of people I've seen/read about use silicone tails in reef tanks, saltwater pools & the ocean.
I've also read it's not a bad idea to wash them thoroughly after using them in chlorinated water with some baking soda mixed into the water to denature the chlorine. Stuff can also mold if there's exposed cloth that doesn't dry fast enough, but that goes for any fabric.

The issue I'm more curious about is choosing a monofin that's strong enough to deal with ocean currents as well as the extra drag created by the tail itself, which will be a large thing. Also silicone often sinks and I sink normally, so I'm trying to compensate for that as well. And if I'm dropping the money to make a full tail I'll be pretty salty (no pun intended for once) if it would kill me in the ocean, hence the thread ask.

[K Swim]

I've also read it's not a bad idea to wash them thoroughly after using them in chlorinated water with some baking soda mixed into the water to denature the chlorine. Stuff can also mold if there's exposed cloth that doesn't dry fast enough, but that goes for any fabric.
I have enough struggle trying to rinse regular lake water out of my silicone tail...mostly because it's hard to maneuver its weight, spray, make sure all the water going in comes out, then drying. I already created another forum thread about something I built to help with that effort and am already working on an upgrade to it.


The issue I'm more curious about is choosing a monofin that's strong enough to deal with ocean currents as well as the extra drag created by the tail itself, which will be a large thing.
I think that most tail makers try to make strong monofins regardless. Even on a calm lake, people (myself included) want to try to move as fast as possible sometimes. In my opinion, if the fin breaks early in it's life cycle, I'm done with that maker. If it lasts, I may buy another one just like it if it broke.


Also silicone often sinks and I sink normally, so I'm trying to compensate for that as well. And if I'm dropping the money to make a full tail I'll be pretty salty (no pun intended for once) if it would kill me in the ocean, hence the thread ask.
Yes, silicone tails are heavy, but feel much lighter while in the water. Although dangerous if you are trying to use one while alone....well I'm typically alone while swimming. Does that make me crazy? Most likely.

[Finny]

. Does that make me crazy? Most likely.

I mean... I'm trying to go full handmade silicone tail for a first tail and then trying to take it in the ocean... I can't judge @_@
(Gonna practice in pools and lakes before jumping in the ocean like a maniac).

And I imagine the silicone tail is going to be an absolute nightmare to wash... such is life i suppose.

Are there any fins you've had good or bad experiences with? I think right now I'm looking at the Waterways Model 3, Leaderfin Junior Sport and something from Special Fins. The Finis luna is also appealing from a comfort (and price) perspective but I'm concerned with it not being strong enough for my needs.

[K Swim]

My first tail is a fabric tail from the2tails and it comes with it's own design of monofin. My second tail is a silicone tail from Mertailor and the monofin is just thickened silicone that is fused into the tail. The fabric tail is easy to wash, the silicone is much more difficult. Here's a sample of my effort:

https://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?18523-Silicone-tail-wash-rack

[Mermaid Enma]

Hello, my name is Enma, and I´m trying to make my own silicone tail but I´m from south europe, here as you may know that is harder than in USA because of the materials and because people that doesnt know about this things so I have a few questions that I really hope you can help me with.

-How can I paste the monofin to the silicone? and the fluke to the rest of the tail? with more silicone?
-Another important question that I have is about the dreinage system, how do I do that? Do I have to make drain channels while pasting the monofin ?
-And my last question is how the hell do I attach both parts of silicone scales (front and back) ? I have no idea becase the scales in one side have to fit the ones in the other side and even if i achieve that, how do I paste them together:confused:

Thank you so much,
merkisses:mermaid kiss:

[Finny]

-How can I paste the monofin to the silicone? and the fluke to the rest of the tail? with more silicone?
-Another important question that I have is about the dreinage system, how do I do that? Do I have to make drain channels while pasting the monofin ?
-And my last question is how the hell do I attach both parts of silicone scales (front and back) ? I have no idea becase the scales in one side have to fit the ones in the other side and even if i achieve that, how do I paste them together:confused:


So I've never personally made a tail before - take what I say with a grain of salt. I do have experience with other silicone work though.

Pasting in monofin:
Often times monofins will cause cure inhibition with the silicone in the tail, so it's suggested you wrap it with something like plastic wrap before applying the silicone, then pull the plastic out later. I've also heard of people sealing it with spray primer. It's not a bad idea to do a test on the monofin you're planning on using to see if it causes problems with the tail silicone. I read somewhere else that people tested a few finis monofins and a luna (if i'm remembering correctly) and had no cure inhibition. If that's the case, you should be good to just glue as normal, but just don't expect the silicone on the tail to stick to the monofinl.

Gluing in fluke:
Most people I"ve seen do use more silicone or silpoxy to glue everything together.

Drainage:
I feel like most times I read about this, it's people suggesting adding a ruler or other thin, flat object between the two halves of the tail and then just removing it after it's glued. You shouldn't NEED to build anything into the halves of the fluke unless you're going for a specific effect.

Attaching scales:
For the scales that will cover your legs you should be good to just smear a bunch of silicone on the back of them and tack them into the powermesh. Just make sure you get silicone worked into the powermesh or they are at higher risk of falling off later.
For the fluke/fin pieces, sculpt both sides of the piece, then cast and then you should be able to just smush some silicone between them, smack the pieces together and clip it down. Just beweare if you get lots of silicone near the edges of the piece, it might ooze out the side and you'll need to wipe it off later.

Hope that helps!
this instruct able also seems pretty good from everything i've been reading: https://www.instructables.com/id/Silicone-Mermaid-Tail/

[Mermaid Fenicia]

https://mermaid-fenicia.blogspot.com/2017/01/making-of-my-silicone-mermaid-tail.html <= this is how I made my tail ;)

[Mermaid Enma]

Thank you so much Finny for replying to aaaall of my novice questions!! :rainbow:
But there are a few things that I didn´t understand completly even translating them.
About the scales, I´m not sure if you were talking about the single scale method or the one that I´m following, scale sheets, in this method, I don´t really understand yet how to do the seam between the front and back sheets and another problem, how to paste them together, I mean, where do I have to put the glue ?
The other thing is about assembling the monofin, so you mean that the silicone is not going to stick to the monofin but if I add glue yes, I undestood correctly?

And also I take this oprtunity to open a new topic about creating an integrated full silicone monofin made up from shore A30 or A40 silicone. What do you think(specially those of you with experience)? I´ve heard that some tails, as the spellbound (mertaylor´s silicone tails) have this kind of "monofin", does it work well in the water ? Also, are the two types of silicone going to stick together or will I have to paste them?

THANK U !! :D:D

[Finny]

About the scales, I´m not sure if you were talking about the single scale method or the one that I´m following, scale sheets, in this method, I don´t really understand yet how to do the seam between the front and back sheets and another problem, how to paste them together, I mean, where do I have to put the glue ?
The other thing is about assembling the monofin, so you mean that the silicone is not going to stick to the monofin but if I add glue yes, I undestood correctly?

And also I take this oprtunity to open a new topic about creating an integrated full silicone monofin made up from shore A30 or A40 silicone. What do you think(specially those of you with experience)? I´ve heard that some tails, as the spellbound (mertaylor´s silicone tails) have this kind of "monofin", does it work well in the water ? Also, are the two types of silicone going to stick together or will I have to paste them?



No problem :) It gets me away from my other work for a bit.

Scales: I was talking about individual scales. I think with scale sheets people will often times either cut straight down the sides and live with the seam OR they'll cut along the edges of the scales so they have a zig-zag seam and then glue them together with some power mesh to reinforce the seam.

monofin glue: silicone doesn't stuck to much except silicone, so the monofin will be sealed into the fin by the shape of the fluke but not glued in. almost like a sandwich in a bag or your foot in the fin, where they aren't physically attached, but they stay in place.

30-40A silicone: never looked into what mertailor used for their fins, but I know the Luna is 70A & 50A, but it's a different type of silicone that's shaped with industrial molds and heat. Since mertailor is less industrial, I imagine they use the silicone commonly available to the public, and they also have a visible pour spour near the ankles, which leads me to think they have a 2 part mold for the fins and pour it like most 'hobbyists' pour stuff in silicone. I was also thinking it would be cool to do an integrated tail and it seems like it should work if you're not going for speed. Most people use 10A because it's the stretchiest silicone, so it's good for the bit around the legs. I was considering getting a bit of stiffer silicone for the ridges in my fluke/fins to give it a bit more rigidity. Using different types of silicone also means you need to buy more different stuff and test them with each other, which may be a bigger concern to some people than others.

General silicone: The only way to know if silicone will stick to other silicone is to do tests (or know what they use in the first place and get the same type of silicone). But in general, I've found that a lot of smoothon products will stick to other smoothon products.

[Finny]

Also just to update the thread, I ended up going with the Leaderfin Junior Sport monofin with a medium stiffness blade in a yellow color. It should theoretically get to me by Thursday :D
Out of the 3 companies I emailed (special fins, leaderfin, waterway), they were the only ones that responded to any of my emails :P Plus the slightly smaller size appealed to me since I'm a tiny person and this thing is still going to be massive on me.