Sharing Information- ups and downs

[Mermaasai]

I was led to mernetwork while hunting for answers on how to make a silicone tail.
I am genuinely in love with the forum and I think every one here is so kind and unique, and always supportive of each others interests, with only a few small miffs and tiffs that don't take away from the over all feel of the site.

But I have run into a brick wall.

I'm sad that people don't share more on their methods and how to's when it comes to the more expensive silicone tails.
I realize that some people have to make a living, and their trial and errors have led them to a product they can market and recoup their losses but in reality, there aren't many people in the grand scheme of things who are going to take the time to make their own tail, especially when it is as complicated as a silicone tail. And those that are... I genuinely think should have some sort of base guideline 'how to' and 'do NOT' list so they aren't wasting so much money in the learning process.

I dont think that it would be right for an oodle of people to learn about making the silicone tails just to sell them either.
Obviously, there are those like raven out there who make a product that is above and beyond the average tail-That I would consider to be the Rolls Royce of tails! BUT that being said, there is a demand that is not being reached by these few specialized mers.
The waiting lists for a beautiful tail are very long, and while some may be willing to pay the high price, the wait is a major deterrent.
So on the other hand I also would like to see MORE silicone tail makers, that are proficient in their tailmaking skills, on the market. If only to have a base model or type that would suit the desires and needs of less affluent and more time constrained mers like myself.

If there had been a more definitive guideline I would have made my own by now and wouldn't have to worry about saving for my wedding AND a tail so I can advertise while I'm in the keys.
It probably would have saved me hundreds in experimental materials just to figure out the basics that people refuse to share.

I think Star has been an inspiration to those who are dabbling and I appreciated her journey so much!
And the idea of marketing scale sheets and selling them to mers who are willing to take the time to make their own tail is also awesome and I'm looking forward to seeing what some of the results are!

I'm not attacking any one I hope it doesn't come off that way, I'm just voicing a desire I have and having a stressed sad.

Thank you every one who has been soooo helpful and answered my questions, and thank you to those who have created beautiful examples for us to aspire to ^.^
I appreciate you!

[Mermaid Dottie]

Mermaasai, I kind of follow you around on the forums, just because of how genuinely sweet you are to everybody. I agree that a little more information should be shared about silicone tail-making, as I am entirely a beginner in the workings of such chemicals.

Star's tail is so fintastic, and throughout the entire thread of her journey I was so ECSTATIC for her to finish. not just because she was sharing her process with us, but also because I felt she DESERVED a beautiful tail because of all her hard work and diligence.

Also SIDEBAR: Congratulations on your upcoming wedding! Being married is one of the COOLEST things ever! I fish you lots and lots of happiness!

[AniaR]

Raven was really great about sharing information at first. but right after she made a tutorial with alex, a bunch of mermaids suddenly started selling alex tails, and when she took her tutorial down, everyone claimed they 'figured it out themselves' which in that speed of time, Im sorry, they didnt. It really really hurt her. Especially when she saw people being taken advantage of by the price people were charging for those tails too. So I don't blame her for putting a halt to that. Also, tutorials or not, tail makers are bombarded constantly with questions you see people who dont even like her page, just demand answers. I don't make tails, I say this constantly, nor sell them, and I must delete 10 messages a day on my FB wall alone asking me how to make them, plus I get constant emails, constant youtube comments, and most people are quite rude and demanding.

I have seen the tail maker community triple in a year. There are easily 3 times as many tail makers now as their were a year ago. I think it'll continuing expanding too. Plus it doesn't help that certain tail makers do scour the forums for 'inspiration' they will never credit. With the history of how people end up treated, Im not surprised people dont want to put anymore info out there, or document their process.

[Kanti]

Yea I agree with you.
It seems there aren't any people who actually have much experience with making silicone tails
actually helping out in the forums. It seems we've got a few risk-taking people who try to answer
everyone's questions while the people who actually know what to do and how to do it steer clear
from all the question oriented forums.

You're right, people do have to make a living, but I don't really think that's the major concern here.
I have full blown tutorials that teach people how to make everything and anything I do and yet people
still come to me to purchase things. You have to realize not everyone is as artistic or as passionate
as the people on these forums. Whereas we would try to make our own tails, we probably represent 5%
of the actual people who WANT mermaid tails. the other 95% would probably see how everything is
done and just decide it's too much work and they'd prefer to just buy one from someone who actually
knows what they're doing.

I hope this isn't calling anyone out, but look at Raina. She knows a boatload of information about latex, alex,
and silicone tails, but she BOUGHT a tail from Raven even though I'm pretty sure she has enough knowledge
to make one herself. Regardless of that, some people live in apartments or have demanding jobs that just don't
allow them the time or space to make these things regardless of how much they know about the processes.

It's also a great point that you basically said there aren't even enough people MAKING silicone tails to even
pose a threat to anyone's "market" if they do happen to list a tutorial out there. Mike has a huge waiting list
Raven doesn't even seem to sell her tails often because I've only seen one, Raina's tail, and Mertailor is always
swamped with orders so waiting times are crazy huge. We sort of need more competition in this area.. We have
a lot of people who actually are willing to pay but no one can even handle their orders.

I don't know why silicone tails are so damn touchy. It seems everyone is so willing to share methods on every
other material. If anything, I think Star's tutorial is about as close as you can get to a full silicone tail. We need
more people like her~ Her tutorial was extremely helpful and it was awesome of her to share with us.

Isn't that what this community is for?? o_o

[Mermaid Lorelei]

I agree with the points you are making, and I am sorry that you feel some of us don't share enough information. I know personally that part of my reasoning behind not giving information is simply because I don't know everything yet. Heck, I haven't even made a full tail yet myself. I've only done partial experiements and I'm still working on testing my mold types even. I am planning on becoming a tailmaker full time and I am planning on selling such things as scale sheets. I don't like how quiet the community is, but sometimes that is the way it works. I know originally everyone was hush hush about latex. It just takes time before it becomes an open subject.

I do wish I could give more information than I do, but I'm simply one of those people who likes to wait until I have all the details before I give advice. I've been led astray by people thinking they knew everything without actually trying it, so I try my best not to lead others in the wrong direction. Perhaps some others are the same way?

[Kanti]

Raven was really great about sharing information at first. but right after she made a tutorial with alex, a bunch of mermaids suddenly started selling alex tails, and when she took her tutorial down, everyone claimed they 'figured it out themselves' which in that speed of time, Im sorry, they didnt. It really really hurt her. Especially when she saw people being taken advantage of by the price people were charging for those tails too. So I don't blame her for putting a halt to that. Also, tutorials or not, tail makers are bombarded constantly with questions you see people who dont even like her page, just demand answers. I don't make tails, I say this constantly, nor sell them, and I must delete 10 messages a day on my FB wall alone asking me how to make them, plus I get constant emails, constant youtube comments, and most people are quite rude and demanding.

Sorry I just don't really see how that should matter?
Raven is never going to get 100% credit for everything regardless if people follow her methods completely.
Expecting credit on the internet is sort of ironic. People take things and don't think a thing of it. And it's not
really fair to assume that they didn't figure it out themselves? Before I even came to this forum I basically
was about to use silicone caulking for a tail because my dad referenced it to me after I was googling it all
day long. Only after seeing a tutorial over Deviantart did I decide to change to ALEX. Maybe the people
making the tails didn't even steal the method, but they used it to modify their own. In the end, you can't
prove that anyone stole anything or that there even really is any stealing going on.

The people who make the ALEX tails are wonderful. Who even knows if they stole the methods or not, does
that really even matter? They're making tails for people! Doesn't that outweigh the fact that it's a "stolen"
method? I don't understand how that'd make pricing bad? There's more competition so pricing would be
lower?

And the reason people are messaging you guys so furiously seems to stem from the fact that no one mentions
anything about the tails. Raven doesn't say she makes tails and you say you got them from her even though she has
no page or youtube description saying she does. How else will people who have questions get any answers unless
they message you? o_O

[Mermaasai]

Thank you Dottie! You made me feel really spesh! ^.^

Raina, I completely understand the frustration of stolen ideas, I now just assume that what ever ideas I have have either been done before or will be done some day by some one else.

I am also sorry raven was so hurt by the actions of those she trusted not to take advantage of her creativity, and I'm sad for every one who has had an idea.directly stolen from them with no credit.
Its unfair and unkind!
But I want to thank her for being a pioneer, intentionally or not, and paving the way for those of us who were with out an idea! She is a great leader in the world of mermaiding IMO.

I plan on going about things with sensitivity to artists creative claims, and to always site my resources!

I'm glad though that they did share, and that I get to learn from the best!

I'm just hoping for a wider variety of mertail tenders to fill the demand for durable, realistic tails, if anything to fulfill the dreams of both big and little Mers every where!

EDIT:

Sorry I sent all that from a cell phone, finally on my computer for a moment...

I wanted to say too that this is a cons and pros thread ^.^
Lets be sure keep things friendly, frank, and no fluke pointing!
I know its hard, but I think that we can do it.
I admire every ones hard work and I am dazzled by some of the artistic talent just here on the mernetwork.
Lets aim to help each other reach goals, whether they are our own or some one else's.

And Kanti made a very good point- we are a small percent of the mermaid loving people out there!
I would love to see mermaiding be something accessible to old and young every where, not just those who have an Internet connection and are handy with arts and crafts, or have a large disposable income .

And Raina- You are an inspiration to all of us too! All your hard work and honesty about your tail experiences has given us insight to the different kinds of tails there are, and the different qualities of work!
I think we can all aspire to own a Raven tail, but the poor woman can't fill all the demand, has she thought about training some one to take some of the pressure off? She could have affiliate tail makers!
I love team work ^.^

And Lorelei made a great point on another of my threads: Sometimes people can't tell you what to use/do because they don't know either! They are still trying new things and they don't want to tell you something that doesnt hold water!(or keep it out teeheehee)

All of these are very good reasons and points, lets keep the debate friendly, and I'm looking forward to hearing more from every one!

[AniaR]

Kanti are you following the right stuff for Raven? She's sold several tails beside mine, and made several more, and is in the process of making current orders- there's photos of all of them. (Cydney has a blue latex one, Anita has a sequin one, the other silicone ones belong to mers I dont know or dont know yet) She announces when she's able to take an order, and it's first come first serve, or whoever is next on the waiting list- she has NO plans of being a full time tail maker she'll be finished soon until November. Why should she or anyone feel obligated to give away trade secrets? Just because people are on the forum community, doesn't mean they're here to share how they do their work. Some people are, some people arent. I have a whole faq about my tail that's on my website and my FB, as far as I'm concerned, that's a pretty fair thing to do for my fans, and then the people who arent fans but just harass me constantly for information? It takes me half an hour each day to actually filter through the messages I receive, I dont think I owe anyone hours of my day to sit and respond to generally rude demanding questions about my tail- when I've already made that information available already. It's frustrating to see people ask the same things over and over again without even checking to see if it's answered for them. I feel the same way about the forum when I see duplicate or triplicate threads on the exact same topic with the exact same info as another thread, if people want to harass me with questions they should at least take the time to see if it's already been answered. I have 2 jobs besides my mermaiding, and my actual mermaiding has nothing to do with selling tails, I volunteer, I take courses, I have no time for that. I think many tail makers feel the same way. They don't have time to make enough tails for demand- when are they going to find time to explain tail making on the forum? I especially dont have time for the rude comments that in addition to demanding information for me, have the never to say "but I wont pay you more than X amount of dollars" when they have zero idea what the materials cost. You want to make a tail? put some research into it and be kind to the people you ask questions to.

And all the alex tails originated from Raven's tutorial as far as im concerned since nobody even KNEW mertailor tails were made from alex until she told. It's not so much about credit, as it is for me people who outright lie and try to convince people it's their own 100% idea. But you know, that's just me, and I have the same opinion when people start 'adopting' tail designs. I mean, you say only a small percent but look how many people and companies started up right after she did that? so it really doesnt seem to me a small percent. I think the majority of the people out there using the alex stuff are working hard to be original, and that's great. But I hope people just realize that stuff degrades incredibly fast. I've seen Raven's alex tails in person and they have turned white. We discussed it during my trip and the lack of longevity in the alex is one of the main reasons why she doesn't endorse it. I recomend them for short term tails why people work and save up for longer lasting ones.

Last year the options for a realistic tail were: MVD (if you were lucky) or mertailor

This year, a year later, we have actual companies: Emily Angelfish (adopting the alex) Shell tail labs, mermaid rentals (has now become more affordable when previously was generally not considered) mermaid creations (Merman Jesse's silicone), Mermaids r us, and mermaid parties. Plus, there are individual people like laambry and Raven selling individual realistic tails occasionally, then you have people like dr seaweed, shelly and star who are documenting their stuff along the way as well, oceanika who makes sort of an in the middle tail style, and all the new fabric tail makers. As much as people hate Adam Martyn his entire tutorial videos are still floating around youtube you know

To me, that doesn't say people aren't sharing information or that there are limited options, like I said, we've at least tripled from where we were before, and Im sure I've forgotten people. I dont think it's fair to say no one's talking and there's not enough info, there is more info now than there ever was. and I also happen to know of a few more who are not ready to present to the community yet because their products arent finished and tested

And at the end of the day, I dont think anyone should be quilted into giving out their secrets. I think we need to work a bit harder on respect on both ends. Respect for the people who want to make their own tail and figure it out, and not lowering our respect for someone because they DONT want to teach everyone else how to do it. It costs a LOT of money to figure this stuff out on either end, and yes I do believe tail makers lose money. For instances, you cant tell me mertailor hasnt lost money because all these people are now making tails- people say it on this forum frequently, and even leave those messages all over his page- he used to be the only place you could go. That was it. Now he's not. Also, spfx forums all over the net are similar to ours, people share general knowledge and elaborate on a few things, but a lot of stuff is what gives each artist an edge and is why they get hired above others.

and just for clarity sake, I actually have no clue how to make a tail, (though I dont mind you using me as an example) nor do I have interest in making one. The reason I invested so much time in learning about the materials is because I have Multiple Chemical Sensitivity- and I have life threatening allergic reactions to a variety of materials. It turned out alex plus actually was absorbed into my blood stream last summer and I had to deal with some of those nasty side affects described in the warning. I could never sew or do anything that involved too much fine motor because I also have a minor neurological disorder that creates symptoms similar to MS in my body. I dont think I have any leg up on anyone for why I know what I know about tail making, I know it all from simply talking to people on the forum, looking at youtube videos, and following the process threads and photos of people showing how they make their tails. All already public information. I find it more helps me better understand how to use my tail and care for it more than anything.

I think a lot of people on here are respectful, I know Dr SeaWeed and Star both gave shout outs to people when they used their ideas. Jesse does too. It's not even that I think people should be crediting people 24/7 along the way... I just find people in general quite demanding, ignorant (especially when it comes to cost and materials) and in my experience rude. We can all sit here and talk about how "that's the internet" but when one of us has an idea completley taken from us, then suddenly, it's not just 'the internet'. This is an area in which we must tread lightly, I dont think there's any black or white about it. Be greatful for those who share their knowledge, but don't harp on someone for not. There ARE people who arent respectful, and there ARE people who don't participate in this community at all but read everything and use the ideas

I share a lot of my professional mermaid knowledge with the community, but I can tell you right now, there's things I've discovered, ideas I have, that I dont. Because they give me an edge and help me remain unique. There are some questions I will not answer. I think that's my perogitive- same for anyone else.


edit: I do wanna add, that people like star and dr seaweed started out with the same info we all have from the forums, and made their way from there.

[AniaR]

p.s mermassai, I do think this is an excellent topic for debate and discussion, I dont want my wall o text to come off like it's directed at you, it's intended as my opinions only.

[Kanti]

Lorelei you're insane if you think anyone is suggesting you don't share enough information xD
You haven't even finished your tail yet and you're trying to help everyone out as much as possible.
While you probably don't want to mislead people, you're sharing all the information you know!
You're helping people, like me, who've never even seen a case of Dragonskin in person. ANYTHING
you share with us is great information! xD

[Kanti]

Why be part of a community if you don't want to help them out? If you don't consider them
your friends enough to give them very basic explanations?
I don't even care for a tutorial, just how about answering some questions people have? No one
asked anyone to share their secrets, just answer some questions about silicone tail making.

Also it's great the Mertailor is losing business when people want to make their own tails. But
he still gets so many orders he can't finish them within 2 months xD
I'd say his business is still booming.
And even with Mermaid Shelly, Mermaid Parties, and all those other people I still see lots of
people getting business and lots of very happy people finally getting mermaid tails!
If any of those people lose business maybe they need to up their ideas and methods. Then
you can know who's the more resourceful and reliable when it comes to businesses.

And yea that is the internet. You can't prevent your ideas from being stolen EVER unless you
decide to not post them at all or you patend (probably spelled that wrong lol) the idea as your
own then go stalking around and sue everyone who copies you without writing that they got
the idea from you. Isn't that what the Mertailor does and you guys give him a lot of crap o.O
While the internet is great, it has it's faults. You can let people take your ideas and just stop
caring or you can try to make everyone give you credit and seem overly possessive.

It's alright if you want to keep some secrets that make your own tails unique, but is a SILICONE
tail unique? Then why don't we get help on them?

We have people who can answer questions very easily! They don't even have to respond in a forum!
I'd be ok if they were like "Here's how you do it, but can you not say it publicly because I'm scared
people will steal my methods" I've sent several PMs to people and have been ignored! How do you
think that makes me feel ): Not very much like this is a community, or maybe people just generally
don't like me?

There's lots of people here who just want to make tails for themselves and nothing more!
And there's a large difference when it comes to paying $500 for some materials to make it
yourself vs. $2,000-$3,00 which not everyone can afford, even if they saved up for months!

It's not a matter of stealing ideas, it's a general curiosity and hunger for knowledge on how
to do things that people in this community KNOW how to do!
And if they don't want to contribute, talk, and don't think they can trust anyone why are they here?? o_O


Also wait...

And all the alex tails originated from Raven's tutorial as far as im concerned since nobody even KNEW mertailor tails were made from alex until she told.
Doesn't this mean that Raven didn't even develop the idea for using ALEX? The mertailor did??
So technically Raven didn't even think that up herself o_O

[Mermaasai]

p.s mermassai, I do think this is an excellent topic for debate and discussion, I dont want my wall o text to come off like it's directed at you, it's intended as my opinions only.

Its ok ^.^ thank you for the PS though, I wish we were all sitting around with hot cocoa and cinnamon toast talking and enjoying friendly debate lol.

You are all bring good arguments!

[Mermaid Dottie]

Several Great points to bring up Raina. You know how much I admire you, right?
I feel bad now that I sent Raven a message a while back asking if she had any pointers for me. At first I was disappointed that she never got back to me, and then I figured it was just because my message had gotten lost in her fan-mail. (I'm pretty sure we would all kill a harpy to get a Raven-made tail)
I understand, now, though. If I were Raven, I would delete my message in a heartbeat.

I think that what would be ideal as far as this topic goes, is a great big list of DO's and DON'T's for silicone.
Like, "DON'T use silicone with this material, as it's too weak/doesn't stretch/looks like carp" or
"DO use this kind of paint/pigment with this silicone as it turns out really nice".

Just my humble opinion.

[AniaR]

Why be part of a community if you don't want to help them out? If you don't consider them
your friends enough to give them very basic explanations?
I didnt realize 'being part of the community' meant "explain how I do EVERYTHING". Who gets to decide when enough is enough in terms of helping out? I sorta feel like, enough never seems to be enough. And I'd like to add a huge majority of people swarming with comments of "how do I make a tail?!" are NOT active members of the established online community. :/ I do a heck of a lot for the community, I share more than many, and I work hard to promote others, bring new people to the community, and Sirena and I have tail flip which is a huge undertaking. Why isn't that enough? Why should I have to tell things you think are "basic explanations" but I feel are trade secrets to everyone? (I'm using "I" and "you" metaphorically here, since obviously, I have no tail making trade secrets)


MVD took actual classes to learn his trade, Raven did everything you all do here and spent all her money testing and testing, why do you think explaining how to make a silicone tail is just so simple and required? You say if you dont want ideas stolen, dont put them online. Well that's exactly what people are choosing not to do- and now they're getting harped on for choosing that?


And if they don't want to contribute, talk, and don't think they can trust anyone why are they here??

Again, I didnt realize this community was only for those who are interested in making tails, sharing information on making tails, and learning how to make tails. I thought this community was based on a love for mermaids and everything that goes with it. To me, I find it really offensive you'd suggest someone who doesn't want to share their knowledge of tail making shouldn't be here. It doesnt even have to be an issue of trust or stealing ideas. If someone doesnt want to share, for ANY reason, that's their prerogative. I really really don't like this demanding attitude- it only seems to apply to silicone tails, I dont see anyone flipping out that Raven isn't make shell top tutorials or belts, or giving step by steps on making mermaid jewellery. If someone doesn't want to tell how to make their silicone tail, they should NOT be crapped on, treated as if they're not acting 'communal', or interpreted as rude for choosing not to answer questions.

To me, it doesnt matter what a person's reason, if they dont want to share how they do something, be it made mermaid tails, make some glorious birthday cake, sew a dress, take a part and fix a computer, or whatever that's THEIR prerogative. It shouldn't be translated into anything other than they are keeping that to themselves. Like I said, there is MORE information on making tails now than there ever was. I think that should count for something, but apparently, it's not enough!

[AniaR]

Its ok ^.^ thank you for the PS though, I wish we were all sitting around with hot cocoa and cinnamon toast talking and enjoying friendly debate lol.
Sometimes I just get sooo into my run on sentences I dont stop to think! >.> lol. Cocoa would be nice!


Several Great points to bring up Raina. You know how much I admire you, right?
I feel bad now that I sent Raven a message a while back asking if she had any pointers for me. At first I was disappointed that she never got back to me, and then I figured it was just because my message had gotten lost in her fan-mail. (I'm pretty sure we would all kill a harpy to get a Raven-made tail)
I understand, now, though. If I were Raven, I would delete my message in a heartbeat.

dont feel bad, I can't speak for Raven, but I personally just feel overwhelmed when I open my inbox to dozens upon dozens of the same question @_@ maybe Raven will one day make her own little FAQ she can re-direct people to. But even with that I feel it's quite overwhelming replying to all the messages. I want to give priority to clients first, I dont even MAKE tails and I gotta sift through pages of "how much ur tail cost?" "I want ur tail" "can u make me a tail for 200$?" "how u make ur tail?" etc :p lol though Im sure your messages would never read like that! Hahaha


I think that what would be ideal as far as this topic goes, is a great big list of DO's and DON'T's for silicone.
Like, "DON'T use silicone with this material, as it's too weak/doesn't stretch/looks like carp" or
"DO use this kind of paint/pigment with this silicone as it turns out really nice".

I think that's a great idea, I know captain nemo and Jesse have spent a lot of time testing things out, perhaps that's something we can see if they'd be interested in starting off.

Sorry for the double post, the posts I quoted were posted while I was making my reply

[Wishingforwater]

I am not a mermaid, im am a magician. I look at tail making much like magic. Whether your my best friend or not, there is no way im going to tell you the secret to my prized illusion. I mean its my livelihood. I spent years studying the art, the principles and the methods of magic,illusion and entertainment to create an illusion like no other. To the non magicians in may look, at first, like any other trick. But to magicians, to people in MY community sharing MY profession , they think it is glorious, the most wonderful illusion they have seen. So of course i keep it a secret. Even to my own kin.

some quotes from above^^"You can let people take your ideas and just stop
caring or you can try to make everyone give you credit and seem overly possessive”.
“In the end, you can't
prove that anyone stole anything or that there even really is any stealing going on.”

Both true statement, but there is a third option, a third choice you CAN do. Only reveal your secrets to your clients!

Look, Raven has been studying and learning casting and molding techniques for years, she was an excellerated art student, along with being an accomplished fire dancer, fire eater, hoop artist, and aerialist. She spent her life up until now LEARNING and STUDYING these art forms. No one just handed the info to her. She hunted it down, And plenty of people ignored her and told her they wont teach. But now Raven and I both make our living in a field which required our entire lives of learning and studying. She deserves to keep her magic trick a secret.

[Wishingforwater]

You may not find the tailmaking answer her on this forum. But i suggest stop looking for a "how to make a tail" and start looking for a "how to begin in molding and casting"

[Mermaid Dottie]

I know that no one is trying, but I'm feeling harshness on the mellow that Sai was probably hoping for... so.....
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[AniaR]

Im wondering what people think about makers actually selling tutorials? I remember Adam Martyn mentioned it- and obviously with his track record I wouldnt trust it... but it seems a balance where people can get info, and the person who figured it out can be paid for their time an effort. I mean, you can buy books and patterns, and DVDs computer software- all dedicated to teaching someone a skill or how to create something. Im a teacher, I get paid to teach kids- does that mean I should constantly teach/tutor for free simply because I can and have the knowledge? Heck no! I do though, using my discretion, and sometimes I charge (tutoring, teaching guitar etc) but, it just seems to me we wouldnt demand free information from anyone else, it doesnt make sense in these fields why should it make sense in this? We should be happy anytime someone shares those details. not demand/expect it

[Mermaid Dottie]

and also...
2759

[Mermaid Dottie]

Raven has been studying and learning casting and molding techniques for years, she was an excellerated art student, along with being an accomplished fire dancer, fire eater, hoop artist, and aerialist. She spent her life up until now LEARNING and STUDYING these art forms. No one just handed the info to her. She hunted it down, And plenty of people ignored her and told her they wont teach. But now Raven and I both make our living in a field which required our entire lives of learning and studying. She deserves to keep her magic trick a secret.
That was sweet. ^_^ <3

[AniaR]

game of thrones mermaid reference for the WINNNNN

[Kanti]

It doesn't mean you have to share everything but if someone is asking questions you should help!
And yea a big part of this community is actually how-tos and sharing info.
Hence on the front page there's tabs that explain how to! There's even a picture of a mermaid saying
"Make your OWN tail!" xD How can you say it's not about that??

I don't understand why you're getting all fired up about it. It's just so basic to explain to someone
how to make a tail. It's nice that we have people who already tested the materials and explain how
to do it, THAT's the best part of the community! So instead of having EVERYONE start on square 1
since no one shares anything, we have people who've already done square 1 and now everyone else
knows that so we can all concentrate on how to get to part 2 and make even BETTER tails. It's called
teamwork. If everyone in the community knows how to make silicone tails, then maybe we can concentrate
on BIGGER things TOGETHER rather than keeping everything a big secret.

I think you're just thinking of it in the wrong terms because it sort of feels like you're attacking me
for no real reason o_O
I just want people to share things with me that they know very well how to do.
If you know how to work silicone why not give some pointers or answer questions? You keep saying
I'm demanding EVERYTHING but it's very far from that!

No one is harping, either, we're just asking o.O
No one who knows how to make silicone tails has even responded yet! xD

[Mermaid Dottie]

Im wondering what people think about makers actually selling tutorials?

Epic Idea! I often buy how-to books on other subjects, I KNOW I would buy a book about this!

[Kanti]

Several Great points to bring up Raina. You know how much I admire you, right?
I feel bad now that I sent Raven a message a while back asking if she had any pointers for me. At first I was disappointed that she never got back to me, and then I figured it was just because my message had gotten lost in her fan-mail. (I'm pretty sure we would all kill a harpy to get a Raven-made tail)
I understand, now, though. If I were Raven, I would delete my message in a heartbeat.

I think that what would be ideal as far as this topic goes, is a great big list of DO's and DON'T's for silicone.
Like, "DON'T use silicone with this material, as it's too weak/doesn't stretch/looks like carp" or
"DO use this kind of paint/pigment with this silicone as it turns out really nice".

Just my humble opinion.

Really? WHy do you think that o_O
I get questions all the time and the way I decide whether or not I want to answer them is if the person really
shows me that they WANT to learn something.
If I got someone who was just like "HEY HOW DO YOU MAKE A TAIL?" I'd probably not answer because
they showed no thought or initiative, they just wanted the answer thrown at them.
However, if someone comes up to me and is all "Hey how do you make an Alex tail? I have the neoprene and
alex I just don't know what to use to spread it and how to paint it?" I'd answer that question because
they've actually thought about it for a while and understand SOME concepts!

You get rude people on the internet but is ASKING a question really rude??? Don't we have topics that ask
questions? Why should we throw those away?

[AniaR]

It doesn't mean you have to share everything but if someone is asking questions you should help!
And yea a big part of this community is actually how-tos and sharing info.
Hence on the front page there's tabs that explain how to! There's even a picture of a mermaid saying
"Make your OWN tail!" xD How can you say it's not about that??
yeah, it's a big part but not the only part. You said yourself in as many words, if people didnt want to do that they shouldnt be here. And I disagree.



I don't understand why you're getting all fired up about it. It's just so basic to explain to someone
how to make a tail.
...but it's clearly not... or everyone would be making them?


So instead of having EVERYONE start on square 1
since no one shares anything, we have people who've already done square 1 and now everyone else
knows that so we can all concentrate on how to get to part 2 and make even BETTER tails. It's called
teamwork.

which has and already IS happening. I dont think anyone here goes "well there's no info, better figure out where to start!" My point to you is exactly this, it IS happening, at the rate people are COMFORTABLE with, they shouldnt be harped on for not doing or giving more than their comfortable. If it wasn't happening, we'd still be back at square 1 with only mertailor tails. I feel like you're not really giving attention or for lack of a better word credit to how much info is already on here.


I think you're just thinking of it in the wrong terms because it sort of feels like you're attacking me
for no real reason o_O
Im not trying to attack you, and I apologize if I come off the wrong way, you're just the person I seriously disagree with when it comes to this matter. Everyone else I think kinda gets my perspective but from your comments- I mean you said it yourself, you dont really see how it should matter. And I think you should see how it matters, and not sum it up into "being part of mernetwork means telling us your info, and if you're not willing to do that, you're not a team player or communal so you should leave". Perhaps it's your choice in wording that leads me to feel you're "harping" or "demanding" (though, I also used those words frequently to describe the non-stop onslaught of emailers/messangers) to me, this is not a black or white issue, it's not as simple as you keep putting it, and people's choice not to share something does not equal the same as them not being a team player.

edit: I have no idea why my font is all over the place and Ive tried to fix it twice. sorry folks

[Kanti]

Im wondering what people think about makers actually selling tutorials? I remember Adam Martyn mentioned it- and obviously with his track record I wouldnt trust it... but it seems a balance where people can get info, and the person who figured it out can be paid for their time an effort. I mean, you can buy books and patterns, and DVDs computer software- all dedicated to teaching someone a skill or how to create something. Im a teacher, I get paid to teach kids- does that mean I should constantly teach/tutor for free simply because I can and have the knowledge? Heck no! I do though, using my discretion, and sometimes I charge (tutoring, teaching guitar etc) but, it just seems to me we wouldnt demand free information from anyone else, it doesnt make sense in these fields why should it make sense in this? We should be happy anytime someone shares those details. not demand/expect it

While Adam doesn't have a good business record he actually has youtube videos for free explaining and showing his process.
To me, that's better than nothing. I'm thankful for him for that.
He's very kind to have done that.

[Mermaasai]

I love the idea of a detailed how to that can be purchased from the original maker! I would pay for that.

wow we are really heating up!
Agreed, game of throne reference ftw!

Would a compiled tutorial by makers for general public, that doesn't share their unique secrets but still gives an idea for a base model, be an acceptable medium?

[Mermaid Dottie]

I would find that adequate, personally.

also, Kanti! you said earlier you've only ever seen one of Raven's Tails?
She posted a portfolio (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.353014308087989.81213.178589958863759&type=1) on her etsy's FB recently. check it out!

[AniaR]

Would a compiled tutorial by makers for general public, that doesn't share their unique secrets but still gives an idea for a base model, be an acceptable medium?

I think that would be the best way to go! *nods* I think there's enough info out there, and I think Tyler's point about moulding and casting is good too- something I wouldn't normally think of. So maybe we can track down some info on that online? Sai, even though Im not a tail maker, I wouldn't be opposed to tracking down some leads and compiling. Come to think of it, it could even make a really good article for a future Tail Flip magazine, like how we included Shelly's article about alex plus. Maybe this is a project we can start :D I think maybe first just a thread that includes all the links to anything we can find, then we organize it and get an admin to add it to the front page link.

I really feel like there's much more info then we're realizing :)


To me, that's better than nothing. I'm thankful for him for that.
He's very kind to have done that.

Yes, it's just too bad he's stolen so many people's money :(

[Kanti]

We can either get help from the people who know so others won't have to waste their time and money
figuring these things out, or people can be hindered by that and possibly waste silicone, time and
money trying to when we have people who can HELP.
You can disagree but you don't say why? You're getting into mertailor tails, that's not square 1.


Square 1 - general silicone questions
How to stick silicone together, how to paint silicone, how to make a mold for silicone, how to mix
the silicone, where to hang and work it, what type of silcione to use, hardness, stretch, etc. THIS
is square 1. This is what this forum and many other questions are about. VERY simple questions
that would save someone a lot of time and money to figure out on their own!

Square 2 - making the actual tail
This would be an actual tutorial. Showing how to measure for it, where to stick the scales, etc.
This would basically be what Star did to show EXACTLY how it's done. That way people can develop
different ways and methods of making the actual tail.

Square 3 - advancing tails
Now that everyone knows HOW to make the tail no problem, they can advance onto other things
that are way more impressive. Maybe those LEDs people were talking about? Maybe adding a
huge dorsal fin or a double fluke? Maybe how to do that weird long pole thing that makes the tail
look more realistic, maybe hiding the heels?


If people are so concerned and overwhelmed with the idea of a silicone tail how do you expect
them to progress in matters beyond that? A lot of people don't even know what brand or stretch
of silicone to use and how to paint it! How are we even supposed to know things like how to
measure it around your legs?
It's using the community to your advantage. It's working with EVERYONE to figure out the best
materials and methods so everyone can make great tails. It's reducing trial and error.
Literally EVERYONE benefits and everyone can then move onto making better tails.
Why purposely keep someone in the dark??

[Kanti]

I love the idea of a detailed how to that can be purchased from the original maker! I would pay for that.

wow we are really heating up!
Agreed, game of throne reference ftw!

Would a compiled tutorial by makers for general public, that doesn't share their unique secrets but still gives an idea for a base model, be an acceptable medium?

Yea, it could be like purchasing a pattern for a dress. It tells you how to do everything specifically.
Lots of people have patterns like that over etsy.
Making mermaid patterns would be a great idea.

[Kanti]

Yes, it's just too bad he's stolen so many people's money :(
[/SIZE]

Yea that part isn't good
But the fact he actually gives people an idea of how he gets things done is great. He even shows
you that he uses pumpkin seeds.
It's a VERY useful tutorial, and he doesn't even go into everything SUPER detailed.

Even a tiny bit of information is more useful than nothing at all.

[Wishingforwater]

Square 1 - general silicone questions
How to stick silicone together, how to paint silicone, how to make a mold for silicone, how to mix
the silicone, where to hang and work it, what type of silcione to use, hardness, stretch, etc. THIS
is square 1. This is what this forum and many other questions are about. VERY simple questions
that would save someone a lot of time and money to figure out on their own!


ALL the answers to square 1 can be found by simply googling <high-performance silicone>

[Kanti]

Then why do people still have questions about it?
Also it doesn't answer what hardness to use for mermaid tails. These aren't specific to the applications
they're being used for.

EDIT:
It takes me to the dragonskin page. Lots of silicones with hardness that I'm not sure how it would
be if it were around me in an actual mermaid tail. Maybe a gummy bear is too soft? A gel insole?
I've never had an entire insole wrapped around my body for hours. That's where someone with
actual experience comes in to help.

Also painting is not answered. They say to use silicone paint but there are other options no?
People can tell you that you can mix acrylic, floral, or textile paints into the silicone to create
more dynamic colors that range out from those you can get from regular silicone paints.
How did I find this out? Because people TOLD me.
Isn't it great when people help you out? It is! :'P

[AniaR]

We can either get help from the people who know so others won't have to waste their time and money
figuring these things out, or people can be hindered by that and possibly waste silicone, time and
money trying to when we have people who can HELP.
You can disagree but you don't say why? You're getting into mertailor tails, that's not square 1.

Well, I guess you and I just disagree on this matter, I guess I don't see why it's fair for one person to waste all their money trying things out to finally achieve it, only to then be expected to share it. I think it's a balance, if people want to share some things and not others- that's their perogative. I think I've clearly explained why I disagree several several times... o.O and my mertailor reference was meaning people either started at the bottom to make a tail, or bought one from him- because there were no other options at the time.

People collaborate all the time on their tail making, Chris and Shelly work together as a team and take input from their customers, Raven and Tyler work together as a team and take input, Mertailor has had a variety of people helping him in the past, Heck Thom worked with a team on the splash tail- some details of how things get done get shared, and some do not. Shelly loves to show all the behind the scenes pictures, while Mertailor will generally only show vaguer ones, some people will be okay with sharing every little detail, some are not. I dont think a tail maker should feel like they have ANY responsibility to be sharing all that stuff, and I think anytime they do we should be grateful that they are.

Anyway Kanti, I think you and I have bashed heads enough on this one. This is just obviously one of those areas where we're just not going to agree with each-other, I can't change your mind and you can't change mine. So I'm just going to focus on the idea Sai suggested and see where to go from there :) I dont agree with you, but I respect you - I think we're just two different people with different opinions and experiences. I have never been in the position to make a tail so perhaps I'd feel different if I had that experience.

[Kanti]

Perhaps because I'm actively seeking how to make my own tail. I don't have a disposable income
to purchase an expensive tail and even if I did, it seems everyone has such a large waiting list and
the people I WANT to purchase from I can't even get a hold of.
I want to design my own tail and do everything myself, I just need some general questions answered.

You on the other hand have Raven so you didn't need to risk a mertailor accident and you didn't
have to try and contact Mike. Also, now that you already have a tail, you don't need to concern
yourself with how silicone works because you have someone to make a tail for you if you ever have
another want for one.

I respect you too, I'm just asking WHY you think that way because I don't understand. I don't get
offended or hold grudges, just understand the internet is difficult to talk on because I can't hear
your tone xD

But a lot of us have been pondering on making our own tails, we just don't have the information or
the courage to go ahead and purchase it. It's an investment and we;re part of a forum with people
who've used this stuff so we wanted to get some general answers! That's all.
We're not picking on anyone and if someone who makes silicone tails came on here and had something to say about all this
maybe I'd understand better. But all I can think of, it seems there shouldn't be a reason that these
sort of questions couldn't be answered.

[Wishingforwater]

Mac doesnt tell pc how to make an ipod and KFC doesnt give away thier secret recipe of herbs and spices. Both things i found out how to make in less then the elapsed time between my posts. Im just trying to say if you want to know that bady, you will work for it. You might have to spend time on the internet or even making phone calls. The making process actually takes a vast knowledge of materials from silicone to thread, to plaster and paintbrushs and "hands on" " in the field training" that a forum will never give you. Go join your local art club, call some art studios or stored near you, ask em if they have sculpting classes or molding classes. The information is out there. We will be more impressed to see you attack the subject with passion then ask just one question. If you take a year and learn all the ins and outs of tailmaking, You might not want to share your secrets either.

[Kanti]

Mac doesnt tell pc how to make an ipod and KFC doesnt give away thier secret recipe of herbs and spices. Both things i found out how to make in less then the elapsed time between my posts. Im just trying to say if you want to know that bady, you will work for it. You might have to spend time on the internet or even making phone calls. The making process actually takes a vast knowledge of materials from silicone to thread, to plaster and paintbrushs and "hands on" " in the field training" that a forum will never give you. Go join your local art club, call some art studios or stored near you, ask em if they have sculpting classes or molding classes. The information is out there. We will be more impressed to see you attack the subject with passion then ask just one question. If you take a year and learn all the ins and outs of tailmaking, You might not want to share your secrets either.

I'm not asking how to make a finished product, I'm asking for information or advice whereas I already
have a lot of the information by means I guessed myself. I literally think I have 90% of the methods in
which I plan to make a tail down, I just need to see if they're realistic or not. I've asked questions and
shown people that I'm thinking, people just don't want to answer very basic things.

KFC wouldn't give away their spices because that's what sets them aside. However they don't care if
someone learns how to bread chicken. Breadding chicken is just like silicone tails, there's thousands
of ways to do it and many brands, telling someone how to bread chicken doesn't ruin your business.
The spices is like how to make sets of dorsal fins that move realitically. THAT's your spice because
you do it and no one else knows or does it as well as you do.

[Wishingforwater]

And Raven long waiting list doesnt excist. We finished 2 and only have one more in the shop half done. There is no waiting list. The real secret is If you contact her with the complete amount of money she will take your order, i build em , she paints em and does the extra fins, and you will receive your tail in less then 3 months. Most of the time alot shorter.

[AniaR]

You on the other hand have Raven so you didn't need to risk a mertailor accident and you didn't
have to try and contact Mike. Also, now that you already have a tail, you don't need to concern
yourself with how silicone works because you have someone to make a tail for you if you ever have
another want for one.

Actually, it was a very very very long time before I got anywhere near a Raven tail, and that was after NEVER hearing back from Mike. I contacted him a lot, I had the $$$ and he never responded even when he said he was ready to take an order for something upfront. I already 'risked' the mertailor accident, and as a result I had a tail that didn't work- and I spent a LOT of time on this forum trying to learn everything I could so I could maintain my tail and make it last as long as I could, and then I passed all that info on to Mimi who I gave my tail to. Also, I had to research a lot about silicone to figure out if my illnesses could handle it, and also if it was even possible to make a tail as light as I wanted and what the drawbacks would be if I did. It's been like a 10 year journey to get to this point.

Just because I have a silicone tail doesn't mean I dont need to concern myself. :/ I poked a hole in my tail trying to get it to Florida, and poked another in it with my finger nails at a gig. You better believe I was googling as fast as I could only to find out dragonskin wont even ship to Canada so I had to find a suitable alternative to fix it and stock up. Also, the entire deal I had with Raven for my tail was that I was the first experiment. She hadnt made a silicone tail yet, she was figuring it all out by making mine. There's things she learned WHILE making my tail, and things she learned she wont do, and we learned the drawbacks to having one casted so thin. I dont have a direct line to Raven. I cant just get a tail whenever I want. I had to save and save and fundraise to afford the first one- and those materials are expensive- you dont need Raven to tell you that, look up the pricing yourself. If my tail got cut in two tomorrow, I have no money to pay for a new one, and I couldnt just call Raven up and ask for another. I'd be in line like everyone else, which means at the rate she'll be stopping tail making until november, it could be 2013 before I had another from her.


But a lot of us have been pondering on making our own tails, we just don't have the information or
the courage to go ahead and purchase it. It's an investment and we;re part of a forum with people
who've used this stuff so we wanted to get some general answers! That's all.

I think if people want to make tails, even just for themselves, and especially silicone, they need to accept the fact they're going to spend a lot of money. Raven is charging around 3000$ right now to make her tails, that includes all the materials, the mold making stuff, and her time. She BARLEY made my tail for less than that and because it was an experiment she didn't charge me for her time. We had an agreement, I got what I got for what I paid :p she did exactly what you'd all do, buy the mold making stuff, buy the tools, buy the monofin, buy the special paint, buy the silicone, pay all the shipping and handling. If you want to make a tail like Ravens, you're going to have to accept that you're going to spend a lot of $$$. Jesse makes his for less, and like Raven he's unable to buy all the things wholesale like Eric does. He doesnt use exactly the same stuff so his cost less, but they may change as he tries new things too, but even so, a lot of $$$ making something yourself here doesnt exactly mean you're saving a whole heck of a lot. Though I appreciate people wanting to do it because then they can see their idea come to life.


We're not picking on anyone and if someone who makes silicone tails came on here and had something to say about all this
maybe I'd understand better.
<< 20pennytyler makes the silicone tails with Raven.




I'm not asking how to make a finished product, I'm asking for information or advice whereas I already
have a lot of the information by means I guessed myself.
but so much information already is here? It just seems like people want reallly specific things? Hence the defense?

[Syrenia]

I feel like there's a lot of harshness going on here. I, personally, think that information should be shared, with limits. Someone like me, I STILL have questions on my tail. I have to idea how to seal the monofin into the bottom of the tail. I can't tell you how frustrated I am, and how many times I've asked for help or opinions. "What works best? How do I do it?" Ive tried god knows how many different things. I agree that secrets should be kept secrets, but if someone is as frustrated as I am I would most definitely help them. I'm so close to simply tossing my tail in the trash because of how upset I am that I can't figure out how to finish it. I found my tutorials online, but took my own ideas into concideration. How I wanted the fluke to look, the colors, etc. But I figured out how to do it online from people who simply told me, 1. The supply list, 2. How to measure, and 3. How to get the alex to stick to the neoprene. Sure, my ideas aren't original (I know that) but at least it's unique to me. I'm not selling them, I don't plan on selling them (ever) but like everyone, we all need pointers.

Personal opinion, though. I just wish people could help others out when they get really stuck like me. Sorry if this post makes no sense. I'm running off of 2 hours asleep. My niece was born last night at 4:38 am. *sighs*

[AniaR]

lol I just got 5 emails and a FB message asking me how to make tails in the time it's taken me to read and respond to all these posts @_@

[Mermaasai]

tyler, I'm curious, what is the time consumer you most run into when making a tail? Curing? Details like painting? What is your most frustrating step?

for me the most frustratimg part as a consumer is the long wait time but only because I don't know what is taking up the time :)

You obviously work very hard because the tails are so beautiful!

[Kanti]

Again, Raina, you didn't make your own tail. You didn't have to risk all this business that I'm trying
to get out of the way. You paid Raven and you basically allowed her the permission to experiment.
You didn't do any of the actual experimenting.
Fixing a hole is a lot different than making a full tail. While you do have to understand some properties,
you don't have to measure, consider stretch, make a mold, etc.
I never meant to say you didn't know anything, as a matter of fact I put in my first post that you did!
I just said it's different when you plan to purchase a tail than when you want to make one yourself.
If you purchase you certainly don't have to know the same amount that you do when you make it.

So then I suppose I'm just crazy to think it's nice to share things with people o_O
Even general tailmaking inquiries and silicone questions. If what you're saying is true I mean, it seems
Raven wants everyone to suffer the mistakes she made. That seems like it's the answer? It's not even
giving away secrets at that point, it's helping people NOT make your mistakes. It's telling people
what's a nice grade of silicone to use and what's most comfortable. Is that really a secret?
"Get grade 30, I've been swimming in tails for years and it's the perfect softness"
Is that REALLY a secret?

You guys keep saying how people figured it all out themselves, that's fine but geeze isn't that what a
community is for? That was my first question.
Lorelei hasn't even made a tail and she selflessly answeres anything she can.
THAT'S a true friend, that's someone you can rely on. That's someone who's considerate of others.
Star is also a great person. She revealed her methods and helped everyone with questions and concerns.
Look how much positive responses she got!
THAT'S the sort of people we need and like on these forums. The kind who don't mind sharing their
tricks and methods. The ones who are here to help us.

[AniaR]

Someone like me, I STILL have questions on my tail. I have to idea how to seal the monofin into the bottom of the tail. I can't tell you how frustrated I am, and how many times I've asked for help or opinions.

I think a lot of times, people just dont have an answer or their way of doing it doesnt apply. For instance, in regards to what I quoted, I know just from reading the forums and looking at what other tail makers have done that you have several options. You could velcro the inside of the fluke so you can remove the monofin if you prefer, you could glue the entire thing down and seal it on the outside with whatever you made your tail from only clear version. Info is here and posted on this topic- a lot of people who are active on the forums right now just dont have the experience on that end, and there are a lot of buried threads already on the topic that just need to be found! I know, because I started some of them when I had to seal my tail!


Personal opinion, though. I just wish people could help others out when they get really stuck like me. Sorry if this post makes no sense. I'm running off of 2 hours asleep. My niece was born last night at 4:38 am. *sighs*
I think people try :) when they can. But I think my reply above here still stands.

Congrats on becoming an aunt!!!

[Kanti]

I feel like there's a lot of harshness going on here. I, personally, think that information should be shared, with limits. Someone like me, I STILL have questions on my tail. I have to idea how to seal the monofin into the bottom of the tail. I can't tell you how frustrated I am, and how many times I've asked for help or opinions. "What works best? How do I do it?" Ive tried god knows how many different things. I agree that secrets should be kept secrets, but if someone is as frustrated as I am I would most definitely help them. I'm so close to simply tossing my tail in the trash because of how upset I am that I can't figure out how to finish it. I found my tutorials online, but took my own ideas into concideration. How I wanted the fluke to look, the colors, etc. But I figured out how to do it online from people who simply told me, 1. The supply list, 2. How to measure, and 3. How to get the alex to stick to the neoprene. Sure, my ideas aren't original (I know that) but at least it's unique to me. I'm not selling them, I don't plan on selling them (ever) but like everyone, we all need pointers.

Personal opinion, though. I just wish people could help others out when they get really stuck like me. Sorry if this post makes no sense. I'm running off of 2 hours asleep. My niece was born last night at 4:38 am. *sighs*

I agree!
Your post makes tons of sense. I don't really think people should give away their secrets, but they
should answer general questions. ESPECIALLY when the person has shown you that they've been
thinking heavily about it already! I don't think anyone should feel obligated to answer.. But why
wouldn't they? I feel like they should want to help if they're really in a community.

Also, what's the problem with your tail, exactly?
Are you still having problems?

[Mermaasai]

Syrenia,
I'll shoot you a pm soon, I figured out a great way to keep it from ballooning and nice and smooth! I'm on my cell though at the moment :p

[AniaR]

So then I suppose I'm just crazy to think it's nice to share things with people o_O
Even general tailmaking inquiries and silicone questions. If what you're saying is true I mean, it seems
Raven wants everyone to suffer the mistakes she made. That seems like it's the answer? It's not even
giving away secrets at that point, it's helping people NOT make your mistakes.

I feel you keep going to extremes with examples. Why is there a need to attach all this negative interpretation to why a person doesn't answer questions? Why does it even have to be a matter of she wants others to suffer mistakes??? The entire time I've been posting here I think the main point ive been trying to make is that people choose not to share and that's their choice. We don't have to start speculating on all the "whys" and assume the worst about someone. I mean, do all the things Raven has already shared count for nothing? Or are we just mad she wont say that one thing we want to know? I get frustrated with your posts and yes, I do feel defensive of Raven, because it seems like we're acting here like she's never answered a question ever, or never shared something or given advice- when that is not the case.

I guess on my end, I feel like you're missing a lot of what's already out there and common knowledge. You're frustrated that you've gotten to a point in your tail making that someone wont tell you the next step. You have several theories on why someone isn't tell you the next step- but there's no way you can know for sure. Well, I guess the fact remains the people you'd like to have talking, just aren't talking. So you're at a cross roads. Either wait it out and see if someone finally does, or make the jump yourself and try and figure it out (or wait for someone on the forum to do that).

I love how we're going in circles XD I am getting dizzy. Everytime I make I post I figure, that's all I have to say on the matter! But apparently... no... it isn't hahaha <3

[Kanti]

Can you answer that then?
Why wouldn't anyone answer a simple question besides that they don't care if others have to suffer
through the same thing.

Question "What softness of silicone should I use for a tail?"
How is it secret to say "use 30 silicone, it's just the right softness"

Please explain to me. I don't understand why anyone wouldn't answer that simple question.
It literally holds no secrecy.

Raven has never shared anything with me, I've asked questions about things on her forums
and she never responded so I can't say she's ever helped me. I've even seen her
browse over those forums and not answer.
The only time she ever talked to me was when she wanted to congratulate me for telling that
woman off in that one forum with a supposedly fake mertailor review.
Not just her though, others as well. Others that I have contacted and have never gotten
replies from. Others that I see online and post actively in forums.

But that doesn't matter.
Please explain how the above question would be difficult to answer or how it would
be too secret to tell?

If it's common knowledge as you say, why does no one answer when I come to THEM
and ask them personally?
In my opinion, that's being unfriendly. That's being unhelpful.

[Kanti]

Sirena JUST asked a question and people are already trying to help her..
Isn't that a GOOD community with active members who generally want to help each other?

When a new member comes on we don't expect them to shovel through posts for answers.
When they ask a question that's been asked previously I don't tell them "GO LOOK FOR
THE ANSWER!" or completely ignore them.
If they ask a question and I know the answer, I'll gladly answer it and share my knowledge.

Maybe I'm just a REALLY nice person? Maybe I'm going way out of my way to answer it?
No, not really, I'm just remembering what I went through and trying to be helpful to other
people who don't have as much experience as me.
I thought that was normal o_o

[Mermaid Lorelei]

Everyone is different. I give my information because that's the kind of person I am. I do fight with myself though about giving even the information I do, but it really is up to each person individually. And there have been times where I denied giving people info simply because I preferred keeping it to myself. I don't really think it's as cut and dry a situation as it is being made out to be. Sometimes it can be an issue such as I have personally felt, where you feel your information is being read and used but no one thanks you for your time and effort. It can be as simple as that or vastly more difficult.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that, yes, this is a community of fellow mers who generally work well together. However, I don't feel this means that all of us are the same and act the same and think the same way. Remembering this helps me from jumping to conclusions when my own questions are not answered. And when they aren't, I go out and do more research of my own. Usually I find my answers.

[AniaR]

Sirena JUST asked a question and people are already trying to help her..
Isn't that a GOOD community with active members who generally want to help each other?
I dont see how we're not already doing that, and have already been doing that???? there's threads and threads and threads of questions being answered. Just because one person chooses not to answer your one question, doesn't mean someone else cant/wont or that it's a bad community.


Can you answer that then?
Why wouldn't anyone answer a simple question besides that they don't care if others have to suffer
through the same thing.
I cant read people's minds. Im sure Raven not documenting every detail of her tail making experience is largly the same reason why the majority of tail makers dont- time. Youre making it sound like Raven specifically is choosing not to post about something in order to see someone fail. When in reality, Raven just doesnt post about tail making. Why are you reading into it for alterer motives?


Question "What softness of silicone should I use for a tail?"
How is it secret to say "use 30 silicone, it's just the right softness"
uh, clearly it's not a secret since you know it? o.O I dont really see how that illustrates your point. Again, going in circles...

I kinda feel like you want every single person making tails to be transparent about everything they're doing. Like, if they're not putting out the information you think they should, they have bad motives or something. Star answers things on the forum in her thread when she has time- but she's not there replying to every question she gets all over the internet, in emails, messages, or comments, neither is anyone else I know! Like- what is your expectation here?


Raven has never shared anything with me, I've asked questions about things on her forums
and she never responded so I can't say she's ever helped me
Raven rarely replies to anyone, know why? She's an introvert. I discovered that when I met her in person. She's quiet IN PERSON. Lots of people lurk the forums and rarely post, but she's the only one you're bringing up? I have Raven on my FB, and I can tell you Kanti, it's not a personal thing, Raven is just generally not a chatter- and when you consider a huge percent of the time that people contact her is only to try and get information- why should she respond?


Please explain how the above question would be difficult to answer or how it would
be too secret to tell?
I dont understand why you're using this as an example at all? Since it's clearly a piece of information you already know? And could tell whoever you wanted? It's clearly not a secret??? I mean- you figured it out somehow :p that right there just goes to show that you could figure out other things too. You're replying to me like I'm not answering your questions, when in reality you just done like/agree with my answers.


If it's common knowledge as you say, why does no one answer when I come to THEM
and ask them personally?
In my opinion, that's being unfriendly. That's being unhelpful.
Or you know, it's them being busy, it's them being swamped with messages constantly, it's them being uninterested, or a billion other reasons. But sure, let's assume the worst. Hannah Fraser doesn't answer every single question flung her way either, neither does Eric, neither does Linden, neither does- well, anyone. Even those who share lots and lots and lots, will still ignore a question they dont wish to answer, or get asked all the time.


I really feel like this is just turning into "Raven has bad motives for not telling people things". And Raven, if you're reading, I apologize- since I'm the one who brought you up as an example. Since I dont make tails your experience was the only one I could think of to use as an example to illustrate my opinions. I think this has evolved beyond information sharing more to the personality traits of someone who prefers not to share- and I don't agree with that. I think perhaps, now I really should leave the conversation. I feel I've clearly stated my opinion, backed it up, given suggestions for getting around it, and encouraged people to think critically about the matter. I have also done my best to answer questions as good as I can.

Good Luck. *salutes*

And Sai, when you get on a laptop PM me and we'll get some ideas going for a thread like your idea :D


edit:

Everyone is different. I give my information because that's the kind of person I am. I do fight with myself though about giving even the information I do, but it really is up to each person individually. And there have been times where I denied giving people info simply because I preferred keeping it to myself. I don't really think it's as cut and dry a situation as it is being made out to be. Sometimes it can be an issue such as I have personally felt, where you feel your information is being read and used but no one thanks you for your time and effort. It can be as simple as that or vastly more difficult.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that, yes, this is a community of fellow mers who generally work well together. However, I don't feel this means that all of us are the same and act the same and think the same way. Remembering this helps me from jumping to conclusions when my own questions are not answered. And when they aren't, I go out and do more research of my own. Usually I find my answers.

well said :D

[Wishingforwater]

hahaha Raina, Raven is never on the forums. cmon i mean look whos posting here lol

[Spindrift]

There are more ways to make a silicone mermaid tail other than the way Star and Raven do. Look at Linden's page or Latexmans' videos, for example. Both have a lot of information and techniques that I haven't seen anyone use yet, and I've always thought that their ways were the more obvious approaches (I'm a product designer and am receiving a degree in it).

Personally, I've never really wanted a silicone tail. I'm in the game more for the art, so decorated neoprene tails like Kariel's or Hannah's is more up my alley. I do have a cool idea for a silicone one that I'm willing to try out, but haven't had the overwhelming desire to do so just yet.

Also my tidbit on selling tutorials: I remember someone asked Kariel to do that a year or so ago (to sell a tutorial) but she ignored the post, I think. The request did look a little rude.

[Kanti]

I suppose I'm just expecting too much?

I'd just assume if someone had experience and they were part of a community, they'd
try to help out the people they considered to be their friends? I just find it so strange,
I really don't understand why be in a community anyway?

I thought the explanation of Square 1, 2, and 3 made sense but it seems it was completely
overlooked. A community is supposed to be where you can make friends and help each
other succeed? That's what I see on other forums, why is the mention of it here greeted with
such defensive answers?

No one was calling anyone out, we just wanted simple explanations. No names were even
mentioned and no one was being called by name. All of a sudden Raven was brought into the
spotlight and now she's probably going to resist sharing advice even more.

I don't like the idea, though. I want people to be able to go above and beyond.
I hope to get a hold of silicone soon, if I do I'll try my hardest to make as
detailed a tutorial as possible on it for everyone and be free to answer any questions.
I guess I'm just that sort of person, but I don't agree with all the secrets.
I think everyone should be allowed to have information and guidelines, and even moreso
on things that are expensive and we can't afford to mess up on.
Rather than discouraging people, I want to give them hope and confidence to make their
own tails.

[AniaR]

Kanti look we broke mernetwork XD
2760

[Spindrift]

I suppose I'm just expecting too much?

I'd just assume if someone had experience and they were part of a community, they'd
try to help out the people they considered to be their friends? I just find it so strange,
I really don't understand why be in a community anyway?

I thought the explanation of Square 1, 2, and 3 made sense but it seems it was completely
overlooked. A community is supposed to be where you can make friends and help each
other succeed? That's what I see on other forums, why is the mention of it here greeted with
such defensive answers?

No one was calling anyone out, we just wanted simple explanations. No names were even
mentioned and no one was being called by name. All of a sudden Raven was brought into the
spotlight and now she's probably going to resist sharing advice even more.

I don't like the idea, though. I want people to be able to go above and beyond.
I hope to get a hold of silicone soon, if I do I'll try my hardest to make as
detailed a tutorial as possible on it for everyone and be free to answer any questions.
I guess I'm just that sort of person, but I don't agree with all the secrets.
I think everyone should be allowed to have information and guidelines, and even moreso
on things that are expensive and we can't afford to mess up on.
Rather than discouraging people, I want to give them hope and confidence to make their
own tails.


Personally, I think it's the anonymity factor. This forum does have users that just lurk and don't participate, and since they are faceless, it's worrisome to think that they will just take ideas and not contribute themselves. I would personally be all for discussing techniques openly if I knew everyone I was talking to, and was sure that they weren't just freeloaders and expecting other people to do all the work for them (then claim they did it all themselves). When I went to the WMA's tailmaking discussions were going on all the time, because it was face-to-face. In this way I think that the problem is that sometimes there is such a thing as -too much- openness.

[Kanti]

Kanti look we broke mernetwork XD
2760

!!!!

2761

[Kanti]

Personally, I think it's the anonymity factor. This forum does have users that just lurk and don't participate, and since they are faceless, it's worrisome to think that they will just take ideas and not contribute themselves. I would personally be all for discussing techniques openly if I knew everyone I was talking to, and was sure that they weren't just freeloaders and expecting other people to do all the work for them (then claim they did it all themselves). When I went to the WMA's tailmaking discussions were going on all the time, because it was face-to-face. In this way I think that the problem is that sometimes there is such a thing as -too much- openness.

Yea I suppose that's true as well.
I guess that's why I just put all my stuff out in the open without really caring.
Once I post a tutorial I just leave it for everyone to use. I don't care if people use
my methods and claim it was their own, I try not to even look for the people who do
that or I'll get angry xD
If anything, I know that when people look at my stuff and they see how long ago it
was, they'll either know I did it first or at least earlier than most other people.
Honestly, I probably am nowhere near the first to do anything. Everything I think is
original has probably already been done SOMEWHERE.

[Mermaasai]

(still on the cell)

kanti, I understood your square questions/explanations.
I'm of a similar mindset as far as sharing goes, I also understand the secretive or selective attitude as well, but let's try to remember there are different mindsets and that's ok.

Let's do our best to combine the knowledge we do have and make a great tutorial for every one!

And again, even if a maker doesn't want to share their stuff, I still want them to know how much they have inspired me and others! So thank you! And I hope you continue to inspire mers everywhere!

[Spindrift]

Yea I suppose that's true as well.
I guess that's why I just put all my stuff out in the open without really caring.
Once I post a tutorial I just leave it for everyone to use. I don't care if people use
my methods and claim it was their own, I try not to even look for the people who do
that or I'll get angry xD
If anything, I know that when people look at my stuff and they see how long ago it
was, they'll either know I did it first or at least earlier than most other people.
Honestly, I probably am nowhere near the first to do anything. Everything I think is
original has probably already been done SOMEWHERE.

My meandering thoughts: It might be different for props or elements of a costume, but I think because tails have a much stronger "personality" and "uniqueness" factor going on it makes them more prone to defensiveness. Mersonas are carefully thought out and each tail design is an embodiment of the designer. Many people get protective because the tail is part of -themselves- and to copy another is a little insulting. To some, it's a lifestyle thing, rather than just a prop.

[Kanti]

My meandering thoughts: It might be different for props or elements of a costume, but I think because tails have a much stronger "personality" and "uniqueness" factor going on it makes them more prone to defensiveness. Mersonas are carefully thought out and each tail design is an embodiment of the designer. Many people get protective because the tail is part of -themselves- and to copy another is a little insulting. To some, it's a lifestyle thing, rather than just a prop.

Yea I get you. But a general tutorial is probably free from that sort of thing dontcha think?
Just a simple how-to that explains how to mix the silicone, make the scale mold, attach the
sheets, etc. Then how to make simple dorsal fins, how to attach them, how to attach the fluke,
and junk like that.
I try to base my designs off actual fish so I tend to not mind when someone else chooses a fish
that I liked. It's a fish right? I didn't invent it xD

So long as no specific designs are brought into question I think it'll be fine?
Of all the things, posting my designs is probably what I'm protective of.
I'd prefer to finish the tail then post the sketch. I don't like to expose ideas
before they're done or else it may not come out as great or I may change it
halfway through.

[Spindrift]

Yea I get you. But a general tutorial is probably free from that sort of thing dontcha think?
Just a simple how-to that explains how to mix the silicone, make the scale mold, attach the
sheets, etc. Then how to make simple dorsal fins, how to attach them, how to attach the fluke,
and junk like that.
I try to base my designs off actual fish so I tend to not mind when someone else chooses a fish
that I liked. It's a fish right? I didn't invent it xD

So long as no specific designs are brought into question I think it'll be fine?
Of all the things, posting my designs is probably what I'm protective of.
I'd prefer to finish the tail then post the sketch. I don't like to expose ideas
before they're done or else it may not come out as great or I may change it
halfway through.


I see what you are saying now. If that's the case, the video tutorials on smooth-on.com should be detailed enough - it's how I learned. They also have in-person seminars that you can sign up for.
http://www.smooth-on.com

[Ilonka]

This is all really really interesting c:
I haven't been on in like a week and i find pple arguing over tailmaking!
*ahem*
I was the Mermaid Raven of the Avatar comunity, so I know what its like to have people asking to share techniques, methods, processes. When i posted my first Neytiri body painting test I hadent even started the damn cosplay yet and i was bombarded with questions i didnt even know how to answer at the time.
Eventhough I never posted a tutorial (and iv always meant to make one) I always took the time to read my fanmail and answer them as best as I could. Yes it was time consuming and annoying sometimes but I knew I was helping others achieve something extraordinary, something never done and sometimes a person's dream.
Yes there were certain things I never revealed, but they were things no one asked about because they weren't actually part of the basic formula, more like my personal touches and details.
I think if you are going to be a pioneer at something and are willing to share it with the world, then be prepared for the fans and the questioning because its normal.
I still get tons of fanmail, even though the Avatar craze died down and I still continue to repeat the same answer to the same questions over and over again. Its part of being a forum celebrity so ignoring your admirers is kinda rude.

As for me, unfortunately I wasn't the first this time around, but I am documenting my mermaid tail process and i will make sure to help others with their journey because its what I would like to get in return if I was ever in need.

I don't think art should be hidden nor fought over unless you REALLY keep it secret, once its on the internet its at the world's disposal, like it or not.

[Kanti]

I've already watched every tutorial there is Spindrift xD
They're just not very specific when it comes to mermaid tail-making
if you catch my drift. Also, I don't really want to purchase 100%
smooth-on products for the tail so I have problems with variations
sometimes.
I've done research on the materials themselves it's the concept
and I suppose the general questions I have that are very specific
that never really get answered.

@Ilonka: haha I know I remember asking about your body paint
the first second I saw your costume xD I remember also asking
about that one very risque photo where it looked like your feather
necklace was the only thing covering your n*pples.

[Ilonka]

@Ilonka: haha I know I remember asking about your body paint
the first second I saw your costume xD I remember also asking
about that one very risque photo where it looked like your feather
necklace was the only thing covering your n*pples.
[/QUOTE]

XD wow its been almost 2 years now, time flies! That was an epic cosplay though, and i never was able to wear it to a con :c maybe someday.

As for the tutorials, i found that Latexmaan's is very good. I like how they showed how they made every scale by hand with monster clay~
My tail is a big jumble of information taken off the net + errors and wisdom i acquired from the Avatar project believe it or not. Its the same concept with all prosthetics, just really big this time XD
I want to take mermaid tails to the next level.

[AniaR]

with this thread as inspiration, I've started a fact gathering thread, if you feel like sharing info, please go and post! http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?1894-FAQ-Latex-and-Silicone-Tails

[Syrenia]

I agree!
Your post makes tons of sense. I don't really think people should give away their secrets, but they
should answer general questions. ESPECIALLY when the person has shown you that they've been
thinking heavily about it already! I don't think anyone should feel obligated to answer.. But why
wouldn't they? I feel like they should want to help if they're really in a community.

Also, what's the problem with your tail, exactly?
Are you still having problems?



I've been searching and searching for answers to this question, and for anyone to say
that 'there's tons of advice on how you want to seal it' on this forum, well, forgive
me, but I can't seem to find it.

The problems that I'm having is simply the fact that I can't figure out how to seal
the bottom. I want to make it look not bubbly when I'm swimming, like a real fish.
I've used ALEX, silicone, Epoxy, all kinds of things to seal the monofin into the fin,
and all of that to seal it all into one piece. I've dug and dug through forums, and people
have told me the best thing to use is silicone, but how the bloody hell do I use it?
Fill it, and set a heat lamp on it? That's what I'm having issues with, and yes, I still
am having issues.

[Syrenia]

Syrenia,
I'll shoot you a pm soon, I figured out a great way to keep it from ballooning and nice and smooth! I'm on my cell though at the moment :p



Thank you, Sai. I'll keep your secret a secret. Promise. I'm just so frustrated that I can't figure it out. Usually things like this
are easy for me to accomplish, but this is biting me in the ass.

[AniaR]

The problems that I'm having is simply the fact that I can't figure out how to seal
the bottom. I want to make it look not bubbly when I'm swimming, like a real fish.
I've used ALEX, silicone, Epoxy, all kinds of things to seal the monofin into the fin,
and all of that to seal it all into one piece. I've dug and dug through forums, and people
have told me the best thing to use is silicone, but how the bloody hell do I use it?
Fill it, and set a heat lamp on it? That's what I'm having issues with, and yes, I still
am having issues.

I dont think it's a matter of people NOT telling you, from what you just recounted, everyone's told you everything. The thing is, all these materials take a LONG time to cure generally, and even longer if they're sealed so really it's just a matter of waiting for it to dry if you've done all that. It all depends on what your tail is made of, mine is silicone, so the fluke is filled with silicone, my old alex tail was filled with alex and when that came apart we tried everything under the sun but it just never dried in time.

[Spindrift]

You can also try Liquid Nails.

[AniaR]

Honestly, mertailor tails fill up- even the super nice ones- this is something that EVERYONE seems to have an issue with. And even when they get it to fix, constant use means it wont stay fixed, there will come a time where it will need to be re-done.

I really dont feel like in this case people are choosing not to tell, I think this is just all we got. *shrug*

[Mermaasai]

This is what I sent in the email- just in case it helps ^.^

ok so just to be clear this is for an ALEX and neoprene tail.

If I missed some where that you need something for a highgrade latex cast tail, sorry! I don't have experience with that caliber of tail!

Basically I used a needle and thread and made small individual sews along the end of the fluke about 2-3 inches apart, leaving gaps between each sew point.
Then once it was sewn, with the gaps between each bullet sew, I used E6000 and glued ONLY a blob where the sew was, leaving the gaps unglued. (this was just to reinforce the hold of the thread under pressure I thought it might be under)

I didn't glue the monofin in at ALL but I did make sure it was fitted snugly into the fluke, and sewn in such a way that it couldn't wobble around inside the fluke and look silly.

This allows the water to move completely through the tail, with no stopping points.
It ensures absolutely no ballooning UNLESS you pick your fluke up out of the water at a certain weird angle that trust me- you arent going to do if you know what that angle is...(take this with a grain of salt.. this is based solely on the result I had with my Alex tail)

I also sewed an elastic band into the top of my tail to keep it very snug against my skin so that there was no gaping when I thrust forward in the water. This ensured that the absolute MINIMUM of water moved through the tail, essentially causing the tail to initially fill with water from the bottom of the fluke when I first get in, then kind of suction cupping to my legs as no more water could really pass through OR come in through the end of the fluke either with no water to displace.

The result I had was splendiforous and the elastic band + the way I sewed the fluke reduced SOOOO much excess drag and I literally shoot through the water now.

I REALLY hope that helped! I'll post some up close pics of what I did tomorrow.

If you arent talking about an alex and neoprene tail... think about the same method.. slit the fluke along the edge and just remove the sewing part just trying maybe the epoxy, leaving an inch open for each inch glued, just at the tip, as well as something to keep your tail nice and tight to you like a belt.. stopping water from being able to fill your tail more than necessary, and giving it no place to exit is the issue (obviously, I dont need to tell you I'm sure!) But allowing it to move freely through the tail as well as reducing the amount that your tail can take in... I think this will help a lot. BUT that being said, I didn't pay a whole ton for my tail so I got super liberal with the editing and experimenting so I wouldnt go too crazy with out talking to some one that has a really expensive tail that has had similar success OR without being willing to slice and dice your tail a little.

[Kanti]

I've been searching and searching for answers to this question, and for anyone to say
that 'there's tons of advice on how you want to seal it' on this forum, well, forgive
me, but I can't seem to find it.

The problems that I'm having is simply the fact that I can't figure out how to seal
the bottom. I want to make it look not bubbly when I'm swimming, like a real fish.
I've used ALEX, silicone, Epoxy, all kinds of things to seal the monofin into the fin,
and all of that to seal it all into one piece. I've dug and dug through forums, and people
have told me the best thing to use is silicone, but how the bloody hell do I use it?
Fill it, and set a heat lamp on it? That's what I'm having issues with, and yes, I still
am having issues.

What I would do is poke a large hole in the bottom for all the water to flow out.
Most of the ballooning actually comes from water having no bottom point
from which to flow out. If there even is any ballooning it's probably because
there's already water gathering high above the fluke area. I'd try to get a long
pole of some sort (no more than 1" in diameter), maybe a wooden dowel from
Michael's to create a channel that runs through the entire length of the fluke,
that way water will have somewhere to escape out of. You're probably going
to have to coat it with mold release so it won't get stuck.

Anyway, if I were you I'd try some liquid nails. Maybe inject some from the hole in the
bottom and smooth is out entirely along the fluke area. Just put a tiny bit, Liquid nails
cures best when it's under 1/4" in width. So just work with a small layers. Put some over
the top and the bottom of the fluke, spreaking it out by pushing it along the surface. Then
you can re-insert the dowel so your channel is still present to keep it from ballooning
up again.