Full Silicone Tail Tutorial - In the works [Archive]

View Full Version : Full Silicone Tail Tutorial - In the works

Kanti

06-01-2012, 12:04 PM

GOD DAMMIT F**K!!! I have tourettes because I had to type this damn thing 4 times because of the damn
server!!! BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGG!!!!
Ok I'm good.
I'm posting this now even though it's not done, just so I can have a foothold to edit later.

ANYWAY guys just sort of wanted to put a step-by-step tutorial for full silicone tails that may be helpful.
I've seen a lot of threads resurface about this and I sort of wanted to make a quick list of steps that
would give people an idea on how to make a full silicone tail as well as throw in some information about
silicone that people may want/need.
If you have anymore questions ask them and I'll try to answer as best I can.

FAQ Materials:

What type of silicone to use?
-There are lots on the market but I think Smooth-on's DragonSkin is probably the best to go with simply
because I've seen the most information about it and Smooth-on has many distributors around as well as
staff members who are great at answering questions. Whichever you decide to choose, you MUST USE
PLATINUM CURE SILICONE!

What is platinum cure silicone and why do I care?
- Platinum cure silicone is silicone that is SKIN SAFE. It's vital that you make sure you get ahold of
platinum cure silicone or else you may develop skin complications from over-exposure to an unsafe
material. The other option, tin-cure silicone is unsafe for prolonged skin contact.

Dragonskin has lots of numbers and types? Which to use?
-Dragonskin comes in many grades with many numbers. The numbers: for example: Dragonskin10, Dragonskin20,
etc. All tell you how hard the silicone is.

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^This is a scale used to read the hardness, Dragonskin is in shoreA.
Dragonskin10 doesn't seem hard enough, but it is. You have to remember the Dragonskin will be against your skin
and you'll be stretching it a lot. The harder the Dragonskin gets, the less stretchy it becomes, so Dragonskin10
is the best choice.

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^This is a chart that compares all the qualitites of Dragonskin silicones
Dragonskin10 is a great choice because it comes in 3 working times: Slow, Medium, and Fast. This allows you to
choose howmuch working time you will have with the silicone before it cures. Medium is generally the best, since it
allows you ample time to work with it, even if you're a beginner.
Dragonskin10 also gets the best of both worlds. It's soft, which is great, but it is also very durable. Dragonskin10 has
the best properties in terms of stretch, durability, and softness, so it is highly recommended.
***Dragonskin FX Pro is another type of Dragonskin that can be used for mermaid tails. However, it is a bit more
difficult to use since it has a much shorter working time. I managed to speak to a Smooth-on tech about FX Pro and
he said that FXPro has amazing flexibility so it follows the skin a lot better, but it is less durable than Dragonskin 10.
So really, depending on what you plan on using your tail for will highly contribute to which type may be best for you.
A special thanks shout out to Merman Jesse who told me to also consider FXPro

That chart you posted is a little weird. What does everything mean?
Well let's take a look at it again
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-I may seem like a total Smooth-on nerd but that's because I love the fact that they post these charts for every product
they have. It really helps you compare product A to product B in what you're trying to use it for.
Anyway:
A:B Mix Ratio is the ratio you need to mix parts A and B. Everything Smooth-on sells usually comes with 2 parts that
have to be mixed together in order to begin the curing process. So a 1:1 or 1-to-1 ratio basically tells you that parts A
and B are mixed evenly. Something like 1:2 would mean partA requires only 1 while partB requires 2. So for example, if
I measure out 30cups for partA I would need 60cups for partB to achieve the proper ratio. Simple math, really. You don't
have to worry about that since Dragonskin is always 1:1. BY VOLUME means that you measure it out by volume rather
than weight. So you'd use measurements like cups, tablespoons, etc. rather than ounces, pounds, or grams.
Demold Time is the time the mixture takes to FULL CURE. This means that after both parts are mixed and distrubuted
into your mold, the demold time is the time it will take before you can remove the product from the mold. You can think
of it as a "fully cure" time.
Elongation at Break is the amount of stretch the material can withstand before breaking apart. Usually, the harder a
material is, the less it can stretch. So in this example, Dragonskin 10 can stretch to 1000%(10 times) it's original length
before breaking.
Mixed Viscosity is essentially how thick the product becomes once parts A and B are combined. I don't really know how
to read this off the chart, but the higher the number is, the thicker your mixture is. I THINK numbers below 4000cps must
be poured into molds. Just a guess
Pot Life is the amount of working time you have with a product once both parts are combined together. This time is very
important because it demonstrates the amount of time you will have to work. Usually for Dragonskin (which needs molds
to work, anyway) it's not such a big deal, but giving yourself a long working time is always good just incase something
goes wrong. Pot life can be translated into the amount of time you have to work with your material before it becomes too
cured to maneuver anymore.
A special thanks shoutout to Mermaid Lorelei who suggested that freezing the mixed silicone is a way to extend the pot life.
So just incase you mix more than you're going to use, you can potentially use it later by tossing it in the freezer.
Shore Hardness is the hardness of the material once cured. This is sometimes hard to grasp since the measurements on
the scale are things like gummy bears and shopping cart wheels. For a mermaid tail, you generally won't need anything over
10. Silicone rubber is usually measured in shoreA.
Tear Strength is the amount of abuse a material can take before beginning to tear. The lower the number, the less abuse.
It's a bit confusing when you compare it to elongation at break, but think of it this way: the amount of stretch you can get out
of your jeans before they tear is different than the amount of wear they can take before a hole tears in them.
Weight is a weird measure, I don't really understand it, but I'll take a guess. The measure is in CU.IN/LB = cubic inches per
pound, so my guess is that the measure given is the WEIGHT the material can support. So for Dragonskin10, it's 25.8 lbs per
square inch. I have no idea.. Lol

How much to use?
- Generally you'd want to use at least 2 gallons of Dragonskin. TECHNICALLY SPEAKING when you buy the 1 gallon measure
of Dragonskinyou're actually getting 2 gallons (1 gallon each, part A and B) so by 2 gallons I really mean 2 "gallon orders" in
according to Smooth-on, which is actually 4 gallons. Your fluke is going to eat up a lot of silicone, so you have to consider that.
Probably a good idea is to save an entire gallon for your fluke so you don't end up having a half-finished fluke after casting your
scales.

How do I paint silicone?
- Smooth-on sells a silicone paint base which is an absolute ripoff in my opinion, but if you have a lot of money and are very
meticulous about making everything perfect you should consider it. Painting silicone is literally impossible with regular paint since
not much can stick to cured silicone, so your best option is to mix pigment or paint into part B dragonskin, then mix parts A and B
together, water it down a bit to reduce the viscosity, then run it through an airbrush or paint it directly on with a paintbrush.
Powdered pigments are generally better to mix into silicone. You can mix acrylic paint, glass paint, floral paint, etc. but the thicker
the paint, the more likely it is to interfere with the silicone properties.

How do I work with silicone?
-Dragonskin silicone is very runny, so you can't exactly sculpt or maneuver it very well. Molds will need to be made in order
to shape it. When it comes to making a mold for Dragonskin, you can use ANYTHING, even Dragonskin.

How much does Dragonskin cost?
- All Dragonskin silicone costs the same: $183.72 per "gallon" (actually 2 gallons).

What are the advantages to making my own tail?
-Making your own tail may seem daunting at first, but a lot of the work is mainly mold making, so errors can be spotted far
ahead of time before you even touch any Dragonskin. Making your own tail not only saves you money, but it allows you to
be artistic, to design and make a tail that is fit just for you. It is a LOT of work, I don't want it to sound like it's easy, because
it is very hard and time consuming. However, the reward of being able to tell someone you make a tail yourself is great, not
to mention you cut out potential risks of tailmakers messing up your measurements, etc.

How much would I save by making a tail myself vs purchasing one from someone?
- The main concern with pricing a silicone tail is the fact that there is a lot of time put into making it. So if you have absolutely
no free time, you may have no choice in purchasing a tail, however, if you start early and tackle the process one day at a time,
you can work to your ability. Charging yourself for your time is essential and is also what others base their price off of, so it's
very important to consider.
Here is a cost estimate of the tail-making process when using the following materials:
$367.44 - 2 gallon units of DragonSkin (actual tail material)
$138.18 - 20 lbs Alja-Safe Alginate (leg mold)
$35.00 - Fiberglass resin (casting legs)
$64.41 - gallon unit of ShellShock (plastic mold making material)
$46.31 - pint unit of Psycho Paint (silicone paint base)
$47.50 - 2 units of 5lb Monster Clay (sculpting)
$10.79 - paper cutter punch (shaping scales)
$30.00 - estimate cost (wood used in mold box)
$100.00 - random decoration/tool budget
$100.00 - shipping estimate
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$939.63 = PROJECT TOTAL

As you can see, even with all the extra costs added in that may not even apply or be needed, the cost to make this tail is still
less than $1,000 whereas many tailmakers charge $2,000 or more. Not to mention, these materials are used for the very first
time when making a tail. Once you have your leg mold, scale mold, and fluke mold finished, you will never need to purchase
those materials again and it will cost you only the price of the Dragonskin and decoration costs to make another tail, dropping
the price down to around only $500.

Where can I get Dragonskin?
- You can obtain Dragonskin straight through Smooth-on, but generally it's a good idea to find out if there's a distributor near
your area so maybe you can drop by and get some in person to avoid those annoying shipping fees. Smooth-on has a list of
their distributors on their website: http://www.smooth-on.com/ and they generally don't charge any more or less than Smooth-on
themselves so it's usually better to find a distributor closer to you for shorter shipping time and cheaper shipping in general.

What's a good mold material?
- Mermaid tails are comprised of many different parts. Making molds for them is difficult because you sometimes need several
different materials. Regular molds usually include a silicone layer to capture detail with a hard "shell" backing to support the
silicone and keep it from flopping around. When making a large scale sheet, you probably aren't going to want to make a shell
backing that large, since it'll be difficult to move around and match up to your silicone layer. Liquid plastic is great because it
can be poured over your scales and capture detail while also drying stiff and rigid so it cancels the need for a backing.
Special thanks shoutout to Mermaid Lorelei and Dr.Seaweed who used liquid plastic for scale molds

What do I make scales and flukes out of?
- When making molds, it's generally a good idea to use oil-based clay as your original sculpture since it's sulfur-free. I don't
really know what the big deal with sulfur is but I think it interferes with the curing of certain silicones so it's best to avoid it
altogether. Super sculpey is sulfur free. Monster Makers clay is a great clay to use because it's very rigid so sculpting complex
pieces will be supported well and it hardens very fast so making the mold will not damage your final piece.
Craft foam seems to be very popular when it comes to making scales since it's very cheap to purchase and easy to shape.
Simple circular cuts of craft foam can be arranged into a scale sheet to save time. Pumpkin seeds have also been used before
but they're a bit difficult to arrance since they require a layer of clay to stay fit into place.
Special thanks to Mermaid Star and Dr.Seaweed for scale shapes and materials

EXTRA ADVICE:
Sulfur and Latex will cause Platinum-cure Silicone to not cure properly. Do NOT use sulfur clay if you're
using dragonskin and do NOT share latex and platinum silicone molds.

Helpful Videos

Here are some videos explaining other tips, parts of the process, or anything else that relates to
silicone tails:

Mold making: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOcCYM9wVjw&list=UUYJ6tiOq9tGtFweCLW8OIYQ&%20index=1)Soft vs Rigi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOcCYM9wVjw&list=UUYJ6tiOq9tGtFweCLW8OIYQ&%20index=1)d molds (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOcCYM9wVjw&list=UUYJ6tiOq9tGtFweCLW8OIYQ&%20index=1) - just to show you an example of how a rigid mold works
Different types of Silicones (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDlc_w-3m50&list=UUYJ6tiOq9tGtFweCLW8OIYQ) - a guide on how to choose a type of silicone for your tail
Double-seam Measuring Method (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-eee2ocI4g&list=UUYJ6tiOq9tGtFweCLW8OIYQ) - how to measure for a tail with 2 seams on either side

Tailmaking Process

Just a very general idea of how to make a full silicone tail. No pictures yet, this is just a guess/suggestion based off my
knowledge and other people's work.
This is HEAVILY based off Mermaid Star and Mermaid Lorelei's works as well, so thank them for all their work and dedication!

Step 1: Making a mold of your legs
This can be done several ways. Duct tape forms are probably the best way to do it, but you can also make an alginate mold but
I wouldn't recommend that because you can't adjust it later and it will be difficult to pull yourself from the mold without potentially
breaking an essential piece. Both ways are useable, however, so you can do whichever you prefer.
The alginate mold won't need much explaining, but you need to make sure BOTH molds have SEPARATE feet! That means the end
of your dummy needs to have two feet at the end that are clearly separate. The other parts of the mold you can blend together, but
the feet should be separate! This helps a whole bunch because it allows you to place your monofin on the dummy.
A duct tape mold is simply made by wraping your legs in plastic wrap, then duct tape, then CAREFULLY cutting the duct tape pants
off and reassembling them. Then you can stuff them with newspapers or fluff to hold the shape up. You'll probably need someone
to help you out since you want to hold your position so the duct tape captures it well and there are no bends or creases.
I would highly suggest resizing your duct tape mannequin a bit smaller than you actually are to help aid the silicone in stretching over
your body to hold the tail on better, but you don't necessarially NEED to do that just yet. You can simply not resize it and add some
more stretch to your scales when you put them on to replace that.
Anyhow, once you've got your duct tape thing stuffed, you have the option to fiberglass and sand the outside. You can use bondo
to help make it very smooth, but honestly, it doesn't need to be.
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If you decide to go with the alginate, you NEED at least a couple people with you. Generally, you will need to create a box or tube
that will fit around your legs (preferably with some sort of support that you can grab onto and hold yourself up). You'll need to get in
the box/tube and have someone fill the area around your legs with alginate. You then simply hold your position until it dries, then
CAREFULLY have someone help you tilt the box over so you can exit the alginate DIRECTLY from above so there will be no tears
in the alginate. Once you have the mold of your legs, you can then pour some resin or cast plastic into your mold to create a
replica of your legs.
Technically, you can try to layer the alginate on yourself using a paintbrush rather than filling an entire space around you with it,
but that process may be a bit harder on you since it will require you to stand still through several layering processes, since alginate
cures pretty fast. Once you have it brushed on, however, you can then make a support shell to surround the alginate mold for
the support layer and then CAREFULLY remove both sides, this will probably require the use of a knife or scissors to cut the
alginate open so it must be done veryveryveryeveryvery carefully.

Step 2: Making your scales
The scale step is essentially cutting or forming scales individually and then arranging them into a "mold box" for your final mold.
Cutting out the scales can be done using craft foam, I find it's the easiest option with the most versatility. Paper cutting stamps (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Y4bIXtPoWOs/TQgNCkPgEJI/AAAAAAAACaU/zQlXpRvO_zI/s1600/Some+Paper+and+A+Cutter.jpg)
are a great option to help you quickly cut out the same shape over and over. They're also sold at Joann's and Michael's for
pretty cheap so they're easy to get ahold of. Usually a simple circle shape should do it. With enough layering, they start to look
like scales. You can individually cut your scales for a more realistic or different pattern, but essentially using the circle cutter is
the quickest and easiest way to do it.
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Sculpting the scales out of clay is also another great idea. You can individually sculpt them by hand or you can use a single scale
mold made from plastic or silicone to make several scales look the same without much effort.

Step 3: Making a mold box
Now that you have scales, you need to arrange them into a "sheet" and create a mold box around them so you can make your mold.
You can make the mold box out of just about anything, but wood is generally a good option because it's sturdy, so just incase you
were to step on it, it wouldn't shatter. You CAN use foamcore to make a box, it's very popular for that, but for this sort of application
it would just be too risky.
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Now, your mold box should be roughly as long as your legs and wider than your hips since you
want your scale sheet to fit all the way around you. Since this is just the BOX and not the actual scales, you can afford to make it a
lot bigger. After all, it's easier to make too large a sheet rather than one that's too small. Cutting out extra scales isn't that hard so
don't worry about making it precise. So assemble a mold box, roughly a large rectangular sand-box looking shape that is AT LEAST 2"
longer than your legs and 2" wider than your hips at the widest part. Assembly isn't important, you can simply drill the box together,
then you may want to reinforce the edges so none of your materials will leak out once you begin casting. Some 100% silicone caulk
is great for sealing up the corners.
TECHNICALLY you can make the mold box large enough to cover your ENTIRE body if you want that way it will only take one
ginormous scale sheet to make the tail. It may make storage/room to make the scales a bit more difficult since it'll be substantially
larger, but it may be worth it in the end depending on what you want to accomplish.
IMPORTANT:
The materials your mold box are made out of will heavily influence the types of materials you can make your mold with so it would be
wise to select two materials that will go well together.
What do I mean?
For example: If you're planning on using liquid plastic as your molding material, your mold box should NOT be made from wood. The liquid
plastic will stick to the wood and removing your mold from the box will be very difficult. If you plan on using liquid plastic, consider other
materials instead such as cardboard, clay, or styrofoam.
On the opposite side of the spectrum, if you happen to be using silicone for your mold, it is flexible enough that you can get away with wood.

Step 4: Inserting the scales
Now that you have a general outline of the sizing of your scale sheet, you can start filling your box with whichever scales you want.
If you want to sculpt your scales, it's basically the same method. Simply start laying scales from one end of your box and slightly
layer the new row of scales over the other for that half-circle sort of look that looks like overlapping scales. Generally, glue shouldn't
be necessary, but if you feel like you want to secure them down, you can. Just be extra sure that you get them in the right position and
you aren't going to change them after you glue them down because you'll probably destroy the foam and have to make new scales.
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^This is Mermaid Star's mold box. As you can see each layer overlaps the previous ever so slightly.
Putting the scales will probably take a very long time, but this part is essential to the overall look of your tail so if you
start to get frustratedwhen it comes to laying them, take a break and do it later. This job should not be rushed.
It's not a hard job to do, it's just tedious.

Step 5: Molding your scales
Making a mold of your scales is pretty simple. All you really have to do is mix up your mold material and fill the box.
However, as you read in step 3, your mold box heavily influences the type of materials you can use for a mold. If you
happen to be making a liquid plastic mold and you have a wooden mold box, you risk having to destroy your mold box
to get the actual mold out.
On another note, your choice of materials is also very important in other roles. Liquid plastic is a great material to use
because it allows you to make a mold that can be very thin and lightweight, however, you may develop issues if you don't
have much space to store it as it does not bend.
The following is a list of pros and cons to each material

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Anyway, once you get all the choices done, all you have to do is pour your contents in the mold and wait the proper cure
time until you remove them. You may want to pour small amounts at a time and from one side of the mold so that the
mold materials distribute evenly and without bubbles. Once you do that, you can blow your material over with a can of
air-duster to remove any bubbles that may be trapped under the surface.

Step 6: Sculpting your Fluke
The fluke of your mermaid tail is probably going to be one of the hardest parts since you'll be using nothing but you're
artistic skill as well as the fact that it has to be perfectly symmetrical or it won't come out as nice as you'd like.
The first thing you're going to want to do is grab a large sheet of posterboard, waxpaper, parchment paper, or any other
paper that you will be able to sculpt on top of and remove afterwards. Posterboard works nicely, since it's easy to write
on. Anyhow, first, you're going to need to do a rough draft of your fluke in the center of your sheet of paper. You should
probably fold it in half just to be sure you're working in the absolute center. So you draw out your fluke in a pen, pencil, or
other thin writing tool. Design the fluke so it is somewhat symmetrical, but mostly we want to get an idea of the best way
to slice it in half. Once you're satisfyed with the appearance of it, choose a side that you prefer, fold the posterboard in half,
do a final trace of your design in marker (just to make it easier for you to see the final line) and then cut out your design
on the folder paper. When you unfold it, you should have a perfectly symmetric tail! Easy right?
Now that that's done, you'll have to start adding clay on top of your stencil and shape your fluke.
Remember, you're only making HALF a fluke, so imagine taking a fluke and cutting it clean in half so you get 2 equal sides.
Later on we'll take each side and sandwich a monofin inbetween.
The next step is essentially to sculpt the fluke out of clay. Now you NEED to use clay that doesn't have sulphur in it or else
it will mess with the final cure of your silicone. These are pretty easy to find so it shouldn't be a big deal. One type of clay I
prefer is oil-based clay. Oil based clay is great because it's simple to use, doesn't ever dry (only hardens) and can be melted
down and recycled. You CAN use water-based clay, but it's a bit more tedious to work with since you have to keep it moist
or else it will dry. There is a type of water-based clay that works good though, it's called WED clay. WED is slow drying so it
permits longer use (adding weeks rather than just days, even if you cover and moisten it) and since it's water-based, it's easier
to sculpt since it's softer and can be manipulated more efficiently with water.
Now the sculpting part itself is up to you, but you can use certain tools and tricks to make your life a little easier. Forks are an
easy tool to use to create multiple and evenly spaced lines in fins.

Step 7: Molding your Fluke
Molding your fluke is a bit different than molding your scales. You CAN technically use either liquid plastic or silicone too, so it's
not entirely different, but you essentially have the option to make it differently than your scale sheet.
Once you're done sculpting your fluke, you can choose to make a mold box around it or not. GENERALLY, if you're using liquid plastic,
you need a mold box, but if you're using silicone, you have 2 routes to choose from.

FOR SILICONE USERS:
You can either:
A. Make a thin mold with less silicone, no mold box, yet you will need a backing
B. Make a thick mold with A LOT of silicone, a mold box, but no backing
Now the main difference between these 2 options is the size of your fluke. If your fluke is very large it may take a ridiculous amount of
silicone to completely encase it if you use a mold box. Other determining factors could be the mold box material. If you're making the box
out of styrofoam, wood, or cardboard (things that usually form an actual BOX shape around the object) chances are there are going to be
lots of empty spaces in which the silicone will simply touch the floor and not capture any details. CLAY may be your best option when it
comes to the fluke because it will usually be very far from a box shape. So generally, what you can do is make clay walls completely
surrounding your fluke (about 1.5-2" away from the fluke itself), following the curvature of the fluke, and then fill your mold box.
THIS is probably the best method for a "mold box"
If you're not going to use the thin layers method, you're going to need a couple paintbrushes to apply your silicone directly to the fluke
in thin layers and slowly build them up until you have a decent amount of silicone over them.
Then you'll need a backing to keep your mold in shape when you're casting it and filling it with other matierals. Backings can be made from
many things: plaster, plaster bandages, bondo.. My favorite option is fiberglass cloth with resin. This combo not only provides a thin casing
thats lightweight, but it's very strong and easy to remove.
To make your "backing" all you have to do is wait for your silicone to cure, then simply apply some WD-40 or Petroleum Jelly for lubrication,
and then layer your backing material right onto your silicone. Once the backing is dry, remove it from the silicone.

FOR LIQUID PLASTIC USERS
If you're confused because you're using liquid plastic, don't be. You have it easy! All you have to do is apply a few thin layers of liquid plastic
over your fluke and wait for it to harden! Instant shell with no backing needed :')
Just be sure to spray your first couple layers with air-duster to get any bubbles out so your plastic sinks into all the details. However you can
even skip this step if your plastic is fairly runny.

Step 8: Casting your Scales and Flukes
Now that you've got both molds done, it's time to separate them from their housings. For your scale sheets, remove the mold from the mold box
and your mold is ready. You may have to clean out a few foam scales that may have gotten stuck to the silicone, but it should for the most part
be very easy to clean.
If you used clay for your scales like you did for your fluke, you're going to need to take it out. A spoon is generally a good idea for scooping out
clay, but you should be able to take most of it out by hand. If you used water-based clay, then this part is easy, simply soak your mold in a tub
of warm water and soap for about an hour until the clay dissolves and then give it a final rinse with some more water.
If you used oil based clay, cleanup will be a bit more tedious, but it shouldn't be too hard. Hot/warm water is great for melting stubborn oil-clay
out of any detail-crevices and a toothbrush is ideal for scrubbing out any leftover clay film.
Once you've got everything wrinsed off, you need to find a level surface to place your mold on top of so you can get an even distribution of Dragon-
Skin throughout your piece, especially for the scale sheets. Next all you have to do is mix your DragonSkin according to it's parts and pour it right
in. You could always add a color to the mixture, however, you should always test to see which paint/powder/liquid doesn't interfere with the curing
of the Dragonskin. You'll need to make 2 scale sheets (unless you're going with one giant scale sheet) as well as 2 fluke halves.

Step 9: Installing your Monofin
Now this step can be skipped if you don't have a monofin, but generally swimming without one is pretty hard so I would recommend reconsidering
putting one in. Anyway, the basic idea of this step is that you're simply going to take side A and side B of your flukes and sandwich your monofin
inbetween them. To attach them together, you can use industrial strength silicone glue, or more simply, more Dragonskin. I think the most efficient
way to go about it is to do one side at a time. Place your fluke, flat-side up, on a flat surface and then coat the flat side in dragonskin, next do the
same to one side of your monofin. Then simply place your monofin on that side. Next you can coat some more silicone on the other side of your
monofin and then place your last side of the fluke on top. Then you can squeeze both flukes together after aligning them so that you can get any
excess silicone out. You should put enough silicone so that some DOES come out, that way you can be sure that massive air canals aren't trapped
inside your "sandwich" that may later open up and tear your tail apart. Once you do that, you can place a weight of some sort over your fluke to keep
some sort of pressure on it.

Step 10: Making the body
Now that you've got the fluke done, you can use it to help size your tail. Now we're going to use that convenient dumjmy of your legs that we made in
the first step. Now, simply take your monofin and put it on your dummy. This will help you see exactly where your scales need to end off and cover the
fluke. So first, take one scale sheet and wrap it around one side of the dummy, making sure that the lowest point comes down to cover the exposed
parts of the monofin.
Now before we go any further there are a few ways you can go about doing the sizing.

THIS THREAD IS DISCONTINUED IN THIS LOCATION
IT HAS BEEN RELOCATED HERE.
(http://tinyurl.com/fullsiliconemertutorial)10888
(http://tinyurl.com/fullsiliconemertutorial)

Anya

06-01-2012, 12:33 PM

This is great! I can't wait to see it develop! Thanks for all the info thus far, already so many questions answered.

Kanti

06-01-2012, 12:48 PM

Haha yea, I was sort of tired of this scatter of information with no one willing or able to answer
questions. I'm also annoyed that I haven't got the money to properly test this out myself, but I think
that with a general idea out there people can take their first steps and get some experimenting done
themselves!

Glad you like it, if you can think of something to add, let me know~

AniaR

06-01-2012, 12:54 PM

awesome work!!!

Prince Calypso

06-01-2012, 08:05 PM

really well done.

Mermaid Lorelei

06-01-2012, 09:03 PM

On the sulphur part, yes, sulphur inhibits the curing of platinum cure silicone. Something about the chemical reaction. This isn't so with tin-cure silicone, so it is a problem with the platinum portion I would assume. In anyway, yes, sulphur (and latex and tin) are no noes around platinum cure.

Wonderful job, by they way. And thank you for the shoutouts. :>

Kanti

06-01-2012, 10:47 PM

Ohh yea I should add that latex bit. I almost forgot about that.
And of course~ You've been helping me the whole way and answering all my questions xD

Mermaid Momo

06-02-2012, 12:29 AM

kanti can i just say that i love you? i might not have the money to test this either, but when i do, the info will be sitting here waiting. :3

Mermaid Lorelei

06-02-2012, 01:10 AM

I love to help. :>

Blondie

06-02-2012, 02:53 AM

Absolutely amazing. I really appreciate the time you took to make this!

Kanti

06-02-2012, 02:47 PM

Glad you guys like it.
Hopefully it'll encourage people to make their own silicone tails xD

Blondie

06-03-2012, 01:10 AM

The only thing is I'm so nervous about messing it up :\ I mean if you mess up, buying the materials again is a real pain. And I'd kick my own butt because I ruined it the first time around xD

Fallen DarkElf

06-03-2012, 03:57 AM

would like to say thank you for posting this it makes it easier to find the info in one thread. I plan on doing a latex first and then saving up to try this method.

Kanti

06-03-2012, 04:06 AM

@iblondie - well since silicone can only be molded, you'll have a lot of time to spot errors in the tail before you ever
have the chance to waste any dragonskin. Oil-based clay is pretty forgiving since you can re-use it over and over
and things like mold making and alginate casting are very easy to pick up on offline. I made my first mold after watching
a couple videos. I just did what they told me to do and everything turned out perfect!
I think it's just intimidating to take that first step, but it's a lot easier than you think. If I get around to making this anytime
soon, I'm certainly going to be making videos of how I do everything so you guys can see first hand.

@fallen - no problem :') and that's a good idea, especially since latex is a lot cheaper and readily available.
Just remember that you can't share latex molds with silicone so you'll have to remake all your molds when you
decide to switch over to Dragonskin.

Mermaid Sirena

06-03-2012, 09:47 AM

This is amazingly helpful! Thank you so much for writing this!

Mermaasai

06-08-2012, 06:47 AM

Oh Kanti, you BALLER!

I would hug you harder than a bear hugs dinner ^.^

Excellent work my dear.

Ilonka

06-08-2012, 11:06 AM

Same pretty much applies for foam and liquid latex. This is awesome btw!

New York Mermaid

06-08-2012, 11:46 AM

Great tutorial,

Now you need is the fluke instructions..lol Im sitting here staring at silicone caulk and a spandex tail thinking.. Like how to make the "fluke", demolding and preparing it, stuff like that

Kanti

06-08-2012, 12:46 PM

Yea I'm sort of shooting guesses over here but I mean, it's essentially the same as a latex tail, like
Ilonka said.

For the fluke, I'd get a piece of posterboard or waxpaper, trace your design onto it, then fold it in half
to mirror the design so both pieces are even. Then just use the paper design as a base to sculpt your
fluke onto using oil-based clay. When you do make your mold using the clay piece, it's only going to be
half of the final fluke, so you need 2 castings of it. That's why you need to make it ESSENTIAL that you
make that initial base piece mirrored. If not, your fluke halves won't fit onto each other properly and
they'll be uneven and look weird lol.

I'll write it more detailed later, but that's your basic idea.
Attacking it onto the tail is a different story, I still have to think of a way to do that xD

Ilonka

06-08-2012, 02:16 PM

Attaching the fluke to the body of the tail isent hard, if you are using neoprene use the silicone or latex as a glue. Paint both the fabric and the fluke with silicone and bond them together, then take scales and bond them on top with the same procedure. Pretty much u have to make a silicone sandwitch with the fluke, neoprene and scales. If ur not using neoprene just no.d the scales and fluke together but make sure to spread plenty of silicone and fill in any gaps to seal and bond them completely.

Mermaid Lorelei

06-08-2012, 11:02 PM

Your explanation for the fluke is correct Kanti. And yeah, it's imperative that they are properly mirrored or you will have a really sucky time trying to fix them EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU CAST. Which sucks. Trust me. I messed up some side fins this way. Now I will always have to trim one half just to get a proper fin.

Also, (somewhat as Ilonka said) for the attaching, when it comes to a purely silicone tail (as in no backing material) you basically have to line up the scales with the fluke (or the scales that you've made a part of the fluke) and heavily silicone them together. One nice thing about platinum silicone- it loves to stick to itself as if you made everything at the same time instead of gluing pieces together. The only tricky parts are in keeping pressure on the seam until the silicone has set (as Star demonstrated with her latex tail and the tons of clamps she had to use) and making sure that everything lines up.

On a side note, Tin cure silicone (and tin in general) will also mess up the curing of platinum silicone. And always wear vinyl gloves. Latex gloves will screw up all of your work.

MermanJesse

06-09-2012, 12:48 AM

Wow...

:nocomment:

Winged Mermaid

06-09-2012, 02:09 AM

Wow...

:nocomment:

:confused:

Dacora

06-09-2012, 02:58 AM

Awesome work!! I cant wait to get the money one day and make a silicone tail.

MermanJesse

06-09-2012, 08:38 PM

:confused:

Just a swift kick in the blowhole is all.

Mermaid Lorelei

06-09-2012, 08:39 PM

You okay Jesse?

Kanti

06-09-2012, 10:56 PM

Sorry if this tutorial offends you in any way, but I wrote it for all the people who are interested in
making their own silicone tails, which seems to be quite a few people as I've seen while browsing forums.
I've seen lots of questions about silicone and how to make the tails that seem to go on unanswered so
I figured I'd take it upon myself to try and empower people and encourage them to get creative with
this material that not a lot of people seem to know about.

I understand you may be upset since you make silicone tails, but in the end, the people who are set on
making one will make one regardless of what I've written here and the people who don't feel they're
artistic enough or just don't want to go through all the effort will probably end up buying a tail anyway.

Again, sorry if it feels like a stab in the back, but I feel this forum helps a LOT more people than it
hurts.

Mermaid Lorelei

06-09-2012, 11:03 PM

I understand you may be upset since you make silicone tails, but in the end, the people who are set on
making one will make one regardless of what I've written here and the people who don't feel they're
artistic enough or just don't want to go through all the effort will probably end up buying a tail anyway.

I second this.

Blondie

06-09-2012, 11:27 PM

DoubleOSix

06-10-2012, 11:59 PM

It's always hard when "trade secrets" are revealed. The truth is most people are scared to try it themselves, and/or unwilling to round up the materials needed. I'm sure tail makers business will not suffer.

Mermaasai

06-11-2012, 12:04 AM

A: I love this thread, there were a few things I needed to know before I attempted to make my own tail and since a lot of people guard their process, I was getting discouraged to the point of tears (i totally did cry a few times.. I just felt so frustrated).. that and the fact is that I'm a controlling perfectionist that customizes EVERYTHING after I receive it any way, because I like things JUST so..
Rather than ordering something I'm not going to be 100% happy with that costs THAT much money is something I personally can't get behind.
The only way I would do it is if the maker was in my town and willing to consult DEEPLY about the desires I had and fitting etc. Stephanie/merparties was SO accommodating in that regard so it made things a little easier.. but I can't expect that level of attention to detail when I order from the big wigs... I dont feel that I would be a priority..I'm just a faceless internet mer.
There are just too many variables and no one would be that patient and understanding when I say something like 'no.. the colors arent right.. it needs to be such and such..' or be nice after I critique the fit..Or have the attention to detail that I would want.
At least if I am making it myself, I can only have myself to get bitchy at, as well as know that what comes out of it is exactly what I wanted or put into it- whether it ends up being awful or not is my own fault.. and my fault alone.
Also- I HATE waiting. Instant gratification is something that I will have if its possible. I loath the idea of waiting, with no real contact or anything while some one else puts together a tail for me. The weeks, or in some cases months are just too much.
At least if I am making it I KNOW that progress is being made and exactly at what rate and with dedication and love- Because I'm the one doing it!

If I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that I could spend that much on a tail from some one and everything to come out exactly (or at least 80%) of what I envisioned.. in a VERY timely manner.. I would.. but I have trust issues lol.

So- That being said- This thread is SO helpful.. not just to me.. but to tail makers.. they dont have to deal with my perfectionist, criticizing, overly involved self.
It also ensures a UNIQUE tail. Something I can say no one else has because I made it.. the fluke shape.. the fins.. the paint job... Everything will be hand crafted with love by me.. and I want that to shine.

B: iblondie- I LOVE your gif... LOVE it.

C: Kanti.. keep up the good work.. you are appreciated and I hope that other mers - IN GOOD FAITH- will not take these instructions and just start making tails all willy nilly to sell... (not that I would disagree with it.. take some of the workload/wait time off of the other makers...and allow for mertail growth and some young minds to get creative.. maybe we'll see a fully functional glowing/led tail soon!?!?)
Try not to quash others aspirations with selfish desires to be 'elite' or greed.. or even fear..

I work from home as an artist and have LOTS of time to do this stuff and LOVE it. LOVE LOVE LOVE it..
I dont have the pressure of another job to keep me from doing anything but working on what I love..I dont go to school, I spend all my time at home.. I'm a bit shy as it is.. I have LOTS of time on my hands to invest into a craft..
So, lets say I (or some one like me) start making tails... I could spend more time perfecting the craft, learning to make a quality product, and then.. when everything is ready and I'm seasoned.. I could potentially make tails in half the time of other makers because I HAVE the time.. (lots of it)
Secretly I wish I could learn from a more seasoned tail maker and form a business agreement with them, to take some of the weight off of them and learn a craft and share the profit as an apprentice or partner!
That way it wouldn't be going outside of them and wouldn't make any one feel slighted for 'moving in on their business' and potentially contributing new ideas as well as affording less expensive means of crafting said tails. (you get bigger discounts when you buy in bulk and as a business ya know..)

Its a double edged sword.
To the average mer its providing a service that they desperately desire with the potential of lowering the cost for more economically challenged mers, and upping the quality and diversity of the product itself.
But to makers its potentially a threat to something that is a lively hood for them, they see it as some how cheapening all the work they put into their craft, learning and trying things at their own expense..and also a blow to their ego in some ways.

As a sympathetic mer I don't want to swim over any ones fluke if you may... Its a rock and a hard place..
I'd love to hear from makers, I'd love to engage in conversation with them about how they FEEL about sharing their knowledge..NOT with everymer but with people who would genuinely be dedicated to learning the craft and contributing POSITIVELY to the community as a whole..
I would love to propose the idea of apprenticeship, or ask about collaboration between makers in general..
Discuss the possibility of streamlining the process and cutting their actual supply costs as well as upping production times and allowing for more elaborate or various fin/fluke/scale options.
Pooling knowledge in a business environment to perfect the tail, and solve known problems.

I don't want to see any one's feelings hurt, or for any one to be angry or have their pride damaged by the sharing of information..
There's so much to learn..
I just want every one to talk through things amicably and with the knowledge that we care about them, we appreciate their efforts, and we want to them to flourish!
Its not a desire to steal from them. Its a desire to learn from the best.
For some its a passing curiosity that in reality they will never achieve.. but for others its a passion.
Being rejected by some one you look up to, that you want to learn, from hurts too.

But.. how do you, as makers, wade through that endless sea of questions and demands?? I won't pretend to know the answer.. Those rude and pushy people that would tear apart your hard work for their own personal gain with no respect for what you have already put into it.. they suck.
I just hope that you know that for the most part the mers here.. they genuinely care.
And those that don't.. their true colors will show and they will be cast away like dead scales by the community.
Mean heartedness (yeah that's not a word teehee) is not tolerated here, and why would we buy from a mean hearted maker?

Blah ok.. /endrant

I just want to hug everymer @.@

Mermaid Lorelei

06-11-2012, 12:23 AM

As someone who will soon be producing tails to sell, I can admit that all of this knowledge is researchable. I figured everything out by spending some tired hours in front of my computer screen shuffling through information. Do I want everyone to have to do that just to figure out some basics of tail making? No, not really. Heck, most people won't even bother to make their own tails even though this information is right in front of them. Does this information somehow downgrade the current tailmakers? Nope. People will still think you guys are just as fabulous at what you do as always. There have been tutorials for making just about anything, but not many people use them. They have the stuff made for them. Thats how people are.

Kanti

06-11-2012, 01:34 AM

Well the main reason this page was written anyway was because there were way too many of the same
threads with the same exact questions being re-asked every month with no answers.
If there was at least some form of information about this circulating around I probably wouldn't have
bothered writing this, but since no one else had any answers I decided to do the answering.

As for the whole "people taking this info and using it to make their own line of tails to sell" I don't care if
they do, as a matter of fact, I encourage it. I'd love to see more silicone tail makers out there with more
style and design choices. Again, it would also help people out with waiting lists, etc. I only hope that one
day they've seen what I did for them and in turn they would do the same and share some information with
what they've learned.

I don't think I've revealed any sort of "trade secrets". This is a VERY BASIC informational thread with a
very basic tutorial on how to make a silicone tail. Anyone could find this out if they knew where to search,
but I know not everyone has the basic knowledge that I do, so I'm lending that to the community so that
instead of being kept in the dark, they can make their own silicone tails and we can possibly advance into
better or more complex materials.

I don't want to see any one's feelings hurt, or for any one to be angry or have their pride damaged by the sharing of information..
This tutorial should not offend anyone because I'm the one who took the time to write it, I'm the one who did
the research, it is MY tutorial not anyone else's and everyone who influenced my information was mentioned
and thanked for their specific contribution.
This is essentially MY information and I am sharing it because I want to. No one besides me has the right to
be hurt and I'm certainly not.

Mermaid Lorelei

06-28-2012, 10:53 PM

If you have anymore questions Kanti, I'm here. :>

MikeVanDaal

07-05-2012, 01:10 AM

Im not going to comment much...but Jesse, you say "swift kick in the blowhole?" Well, I sure know how that feels...

Mermaid Lorelei

07-05-2012, 10:37 PM

I really do not understand what has you so bothered about someone putting up a tutorial? Kanti has every right to put this up if she wants. Yes, I am trying to understand your side to the argument, but honestly I think you are just being selfish. There are plenty of sites all across the internet that deal with using silicone, making molds, painting tutorials, and hundreds of other aspects. All that's been done is put some of this vast information into one place so that those who really do have the drive to make their own tail can. Honestly, it's not like hundreds of tailmakers are suddenly going to pop up. And even if they did, they have every right to become tailmakers. I mean seriously, come on. This isn't some private little market where only a few are allowed in. If you're worried about losing business, then I'm sorry, but that does not make it any less okay for this tutorial to exist.

Ayla of Duluth

07-05-2012, 10:52 PM

O_O "A wild MikeVanDaal Appeared!
What will you do?
Fight Bag
Mermaids Run

Winged Mermaid

07-06-2012, 12:20 AM

I think people getting upset about the techniques of making tails and accessories coming out for all the public to see and use for their own is... well, it's just the way it is and always has been, maybe always will be. Same goes for anything else- in the fashion world or no.

If someone works really hard at digging up all the information and putting it to practical application for a specific specialized purpose, and makes good income off of it, they're going to be upset when their techniques are no longer just known to them or to a few people. I can remember how upset FoxMoon was when Sasha made her How to Make a Mermaid Tail tutorial. Then other tail makers- some cheaper too- came out of the woodwork using that information. And I can remember how upset the Mertailor was when Raven made her tutorial. Then other tail makers- some cheaper too- came out of the woodwork using that information. Now other people are putting out tutorials for cast latex and silicone tails. Guess what is going to happen. Other tail makers- cheaper too- may come out of the woodwork using that information. It's all happened in a matter of a few years. I think people need to realize this will ALWAYS happen. It happens with everything in the whole entire world- from cell phones and computers and other technology, to fashion, to food, just everything! If there is something bigger and better people will figure it out, soon it'll be up on the net for anyone to give a go. Ever seen instructables.com?

Either way, I can understand people getting upset, because to them it was THEIRS. But the way of the world is that it never stays that way. That's factually just the way it is. But it's a good thing! It means that things can grow and develop and evolve! And for cheaper. Several years ago $350 would get you a plain lycra tail from FoxMoon with a nice fluke shape. Now you can get a custom colorful neoprene and tin cure latex tail with additional fins for cheaper! Once it happens it's better to accept it as an inevitability, and instead of being upset make it so your product is such that no one can replicate it with as much integrity (usually these are artistic touches) and people will still want to come to you! After all all the phone companies always copy everything the iphone has, but Apple is always on top of making theirs bigger and better to stay ahead! Meanwhile that means the rest of us get the "older" technology for cheaper ;D Same idea!

So yeah! That's my 2¢

Winged Mermaid

07-06-2012, 12:22 AM

Plus everyone is always building and learning off of others past creations, experiences, ect. I mean, you didn't learn how to create a mold out of thin air! Mike learned from a class, Jesse learned from the web. I bet the creator of silicone would be pissed at both of you for copying him ;D

Spindrift

07-06-2012, 07:13 AM

O_O "A wild MikeVanDaal Appeared!
What will you do?
Fight Bag
Mermaids Run

Fight -> Mean Look -> Haunter used Mean Look! -> MikeVanDaal cannot escape!

Spindrift

07-06-2012, 07:24 AM

Spindrift

07-06-2012, 07:41 AM

Also I definitely think this "possessiveness" is part of Western ideology and upbringing (working hard to get to the top, etc). In places like Thailand the people are more than happy to teach what they know. Passion is admired and they love being able to share that with you as long as you are genuine. For example, a few years ago my father once took an interest in several old ladies working at a traditional weaving loom. He asked so many questions because he was so genuinely interested in their art that they insisted he take a sample of their work with him - a rare traditional silk scarf that is no longer able to be found anywhere.

Ayla of Duluth

07-06-2012, 08:02 AM

Pictures of cats will always be considered acceptable compensation for free information of any kind.

Oh, wait...this is mernetwork, not 4chan...

Pictures of your mermaid tail will always be considered acceptable compensation for free information.

Mermaid Cascada

07-06-2012, 08:18 AM

If there are different hardnesses of silicone can I put a harder silicone where the monofin would be and still put softer silicone for the fluke? Or would the different hardnesses interfere with curing the silicone all together?

Kanti

07-06-2012, 03:26 PM

:I
Selfish would be one way to describe it. If that really IS Mike, he has so many orders that even if everyone looked at this tutorial he would
still be overwhelmed with more tail orders than he can finish. Not to mention I find it pretty lame that you came to comment on this tutorial
in a negative way rather than to join this community and get to know people. I guess it's obvious where priorities lie..

The only reason I made this tutorial is because no one wanted to share ANY information. Selfishness is what caused this. Now I'm trying to
be the better person to empower people to make their own stuff. To teach people about silicone so they can decide whether or not they want
to take on making their own tails. I pretty much already explained this a whole bunch so I don't care to repeat it again. But you should be
a bit ashamed of yourself to get upset about a tutorial that I WROTE MYSELF to think that it's your work somehow. Well, in a way I guess that
prooves that this method IS somewhat correct since people are getting so touchy.

If you're not here to look at this tutorial, you can go ahead and leave. You're sny comments regarding a tutorial that I wrote and researched myself
is NOT appreciated or even on topic.

@Kimmie - The hardness of the silicone doesn't really effect anything besides how thick/durable it is when it cures. As the scale shows, those are
what you can roughly compare it to.
Technically you CAN use several different hardnesses of silicone for different things. They will not interfere with each other's curing processes.
However, it's not really necessary to use a harder silicone than 10. If you use too hard, it'll get less flexible. So 10 is fine for the fluke, monofin, etc.
The only reason I'd use another hardness is if you're trying to make something stiff, like perhaps a fin you want to stand upright.

Winged Mermaid

07-06-2012, 04:40 PM

Just FYI that really is Mike. I always check when tail makers or other big name mers sign up to make sure no one is trying to represent them fraudulently. (Like people on FB who take all of people's pictures and name to make an account, and pretend to be that person.. that's happened with a few bigger mers. O_O) I'm glad that Mike joined us again! Just sorry it wasn't on a positive note :(

AniaR

07-06-2012, 05:33 PM

Pictures of your mermaid tail will always be considered acceptable compensation for free information.

well said.

I am on the fence with this issue, I know how hard my tail making friends have worked, but on the other end, I do believe Kanti has simply rounded up info that ANYONE could find and put it into a thread. From there on in, people are just adding their own experiences, mistakes, etc.

The thing I find about all the tail makers currently out there, is they all seem to have a niche market, or a signature 'move' of you will. Mertailor is great if you want an interesting paint job, mike is great if you want your heels hidden perfectly, Jesse is awesome if you want your tail to have a wet flowy look, Raven is great at accommodating different needs of people (like making my tail so light!), Shelly is amazing at making a fabric tail look realistic, mermaid parties is great at making inexpensive tails, and I think they all have their own special unique ways they do those things- that you wont find on the internet, because it came from their mistakes and experiences. And I fully expect them to keep those trade secrets to themselves- it's what gives them each an edge. now if someone figures it out on their own or looks up stuff online and shares it (as Kanti has) I think that's one thing, but what I dont like seeing is people harassing others for information and being demanding. I wish our community could be a little easier on people who DONT want to share, but it has to go both ways. If we respect people for not wanting to share, those people can't get upset if we figure it out on our own ;)

There are still some things I keep to myself for instance on how I do parties, because I created things from scratch, and designed a really unique service. I dont mind giving people pointers on parties, but Im going to keep my special things to myself to keep my competitive edge. I do wish people would acknowledge just how much I have shared to help others become a success, just like I want people to always acknowledge people who go out of their way to share info on tail making. But I will admit, I find people very hostile if you choose not to give them an answer for any reason. I have made some very easy accessible faqs, and when someone doesnt take the time to read it before they send me 50 questions I get frustrated. Also, Im not trying to be a bitch, and Im not accusing ANYone here of this. but some people are damn lazy. They want someone to spell everything out for them and refuse to do any of the work. For instance, I had a girl on youtube leaving comments. Here's how our comments went:
"who made your tail"
"Raven Mermaid etsy on FB"
"link?"
"Youtube wont let me post links in comments, plz search Raven Mermaid Etsy on FB or look at my FAQ"
"price?"
"it varies, and is all on her FB"
"what did you pay"
"as it says in my FAQ they cost around 3k"
"how much is 3k?"

*Raina starts banging head on the keyboard and wants to shove google up this persons nose*

I find it interesting Mike posted here. I guess he follows this site just as much as other people.

Kanti

07-06-2012, 06:04 PM

Then that's very unfortunate.
Of all the people who could have responded I honestly expected Mike to be one of those who'd
encourage creativity amongst fellow mer-fans.

I still don't change my position and I don't feel any differently.
I'm continuing this tutorial.

Winged Mermaid

07-06-2012, 06:27 PM

I'm continuing this tutorial.

Continue on! We're all very thankful for all the work you've put into this Kanti :) And this is another reason why we're on this site now. Before the Mertailor actually had a silicone tutorial (by Selene who is an SFX artist) like thread completely removed by Yuku Legal because it he felt it threatened him. At the time he wasn't even producing silicone tails. Some people probably aren't going to like the progress the community is making becuase it takes away from their business, but it's our right to be able to do so. :thumbs-up:

Thalassa

07-06-2012, 06:29 PM

I'm confused...I read MVD's comment as meaning he somehow received a "swift kick to the blowhole" from Jesse...Then, of course, I haven't been around long enough to know the dynamics of this forum.

Mermaid Cascada

07-06-2012, 08:22 PM

Kanti, thanks for answering my question. MVD is an amazing tail maker and so is Jesse. I doubt this tutorial will effect thier businesses. I think people buy from them for their unique work. Each tail is kind of like a fingerprint, It is different and unique in it's own way. :D Besides lets all face it... this information was going to end up in the open eventually and it helps so many people. Many people ,like me, may want to make their own tail because they want it to be unique and have characteristics of themselves. Or I may change my mind and just buy the tail because I don't want to have to do it or do it and end up making a mistake. I would be pretty bummed if I was forced to have someone else to make my tail because I didn't know how to do it or because no one would tell me. But that's just my opinion.
<3 kimmie :)

MermaidParties

07-08-2012, 06:52 PM

I just want to commend you Kanti, on making this thread. If other tail makers are offended by it then that's just silly. Like iblondie said, she'd rather trust a professional to make a silicone tail for her anyway. Making tails isn't for everyone. But I fully support venturing out to make your own tail. It's a great experience and super fun. Tail makers will not go out of business because a couple mers decided to make their own tails. If you're truly into being a mermaid and all things related then you would truly love making your own tail. I make and sell tails but I also admire all the other tail makers work and would honestly love to have a tail made for myself by each and every one of them. It takes a lot of patience and talent to create a tail but totally worth it in the end. I am not offended by this thread. In fact, I've been working on my own unique way of making a silicone tail I hope to be able to share with everyone next year. Like Raina said, a lot of the tail makers secrets are things they've learned from trial and error. If someone else happens to learn the same thing the same way, you can't hate them for it. All tails, no matter what, turn out different every time. I think it's fantastic so many people are into the world of mermaids and I graciously invite anyone to try their hand at making their own tail any time :D

Merman_Shawn

07-13-2012, 03:26 AM

Question(s): So you make a mold of your fluke. Is the next step to make two castings of your fluke and then sandwich them together over your monofin with a silicone adhesive(or just more silicone)?

Winged Mermaid

07-13-2012, 03:32 AM

Question(s): So you make a mold of your fluke. Is the next step to make two castings of your fluke and then sandwich them together over your monofin with a silicone adhesive(or just more silicone)?

That's correct.

Merman_Shawn

07-13-2012, 06:14 AM

Thanks so much! :D

Kanti

07-16-2012, 05:40 PM

@Shawn - Yep that's right. You want to make sure the fluke is at least 1" larger than your monofin
on each side. The back of the monofin can be a lot longer so it can waft around better, but you don't
want the sides to be too far off ot they might wobble around too much.

When you trace out your fluke pattern you should mirror it so the "sandwich" process is all that much
easier.

Keiris

07-17-2012, 12:06 AM

Kanti thank you so much for this tutorial. After waiting a couple months to get a reply from MVD and about a month from Raven and still no response, I guess I'm going to have to tackle this project myself. It's something I have thought about trying for years but now I have run out of excuses! Mermaids Star and Lorelei have also been gracious as well. If I have specific questions will you help me?

Mermaid Aurora

07-17-2012, 01:00 AM

I totally am a fan of the mind pooling here on MN and it's great to have this knowledge right here. yes, this info is accessable to anyone but personally, I would have inquired with MVD and merman jesse, and now instead of bugging them, it's here! and yep people are gonna make their own tails if they want to. it's an adventure. I don't think anyone would use 100% of this information exactly to start a business. mostly it's just us mer-ds who wanna make our own custom tails.

Kanti

07-18-2012, 01:05 AM

@ Merparties - aww thanks! I just sort of want to see more silicone tail work out there. I want to
make my own so badly but I have so much other crap I need to catch up with first so it's a doozy.
At least now I hope people at least try making ONE of their own tails? I think the other tailmakers
are just very worried about their customer intake, but even if I did make my own silicone tail I'd
probably still want another tail made for me at one point. Why not??

@ Keiris -I don't know how Raven handles her orders, but it seems like her tails are so popular and
well done that she would have quite the waiting list. Not to mention I think she's only doing a few at
a time? Not sure. I assume it's tough to get a hold of her since she's so busy it seems. MVD I've
heard is impossible to get a hold of. I emailed him once a couple years ago with a very serious offer
for a latex tail and I never got a response either so I assume that's just the normality.
Either way, I'm glad you're deciding to try it out yourself. It's daunting at first, but once you've made
a list on your methods and ask a few questions about the materials, it's not half bad! And yep, I'll
always be open for questions. I'll try to answer anything I can :')

@Sophiadarling - Yea, I understand why silicone tailmakers would be upset, but honestly, this information
was gathered through about a week's worth of investigation as well as plenty of snippits that were already
out there for everyone to view. I just sort of threw it all together in one place. It's all very basic information.
If I ever do go into specific methods, they will be ones I've tried in person. Other than that, very basic.
And even if people did use it to start a business, that's fine too. THe main point is the method is out there
already, it's not some sort of trade secret. So whoever starts their business using this information also has
to deal with the fact that their customers also know this information. It levels the playing field.

Keiris

07-18-2012, 10:42 PM

Thanks Kanti I appreciate the support! I'll let you know how it goes. I bought the materials to start the scales. I'm wondering if I couldn't cast my silicone scale sheets in a pressed styro insulation box instead of building a heavy wooden one?

Mermaid Eutha

07-18-2012, 11:52 PM

Just what I was looking for!

Kanti

07-19-2012, 12:17 AM

You can use styrofoam actually. The only setback is since it's such a large box you may have trouble
storing it someplace where you won't break it. Silicone molding materials are usually ok when it comes
to styrofoam boxes since they don't let off heat when they cure, but in this case I'd suggest using liquid
plastic, (shellshock) which is a type of resin. If anything, it MAY release heat and warp the styrofoam
so that may be something you'd want to look into before you start.
Even then, if you used a thick styrofoam you'd probably be ok. Just make sure to hot glue all the sides
closed so they don't leak.

Mermaid Lorelei

07-19-2012, 01:36 AM

Having used wood for my own box, I HIGHLY suggest making clay walls instead of using wood walls. Shell shock (if you use it) does not like coming up off of wood, even if you spray ease release of some kind. I had to work a flat head screw driver under every inch of the mold sides before it finally popped off, and that was with only an inch to two inches of mold touching the wood. Also, using a surface that can bend or flex, such as cardboard, would work MUCH better than wood when pulling out the mold. This is all from personal experience, and what a frustrating experience it was.

Keiris

07-19-2012, 07:43 PM

Thanks so much ladies. I'll let you know how the experience goes. I plan on using the shell shock and monster clay. Just not sur what kind of monofin to try since I am skipping making my own. I guess the finis wave/ rapid is more flexible than the competitor but the competitor is bigger without the ridges on top of it?

Merman_Shawn

08-12-2012, 12:35 PM

Is Ultra-cal okay to use for silicone, or should I use something else to make my molds?

AniaR

08-12-2012, 03:13 PM

man this is really interesting stuff

Mermaid Lorelei

08-12-2012, 07:13 PM

Silicone works in most mold materials as long as it doesn't contain sulphur, latex, or tin and you apply an ease release of some kind.

Merman_Shawn

08-12-2012, 07:29 PM

Lorelei, you're like my Fairy or rather Mermaid God Mother! Thanks again.

Mermaid Lorelei

08-13-2012, 02:32 PM

Lorelei, you're like my Fairy or rather Mermaid God Mother! Thanks again.
<3 You're so sweet Shawn.

Ayla of Duluth

08-19-2012, 03:41 PM

Lorelei should do online classes for this stuff via skype like an online school xD

Mermaid Saphira

08-19-2012, 03:43 PM

Lorelei should do online classes for this stuff via skype like an online school xD

Yes!!! Good idea :thumbs-up:

Mermaid Lorelei

08-19-2012, 04:19 PM

Haha, you guys are silly. :> But thanks for the compliment.

Keiris

08-23-2012, 05:20 PM

Hell Yeah! I'd take that class!!! I am in the middle of scale cutting/placing hell! I decided I want to make a scale box large enough to cast a single sheet of scales large enough to completely wrap around to eliminate as many seams as possible. OMG!!! I have placed 2,965 graduated circles and I'm not even halfway there! Someone shoot me in the face, I feel like I'm going cross-eyed!!!

Mermaid Narina

08-27-2012, 06:54 AM

you will probably be seeing scales every time you close your eyes, right? i hate that x_x
@Kanti
You are so amazing! As soon as i can afford/get around to making a tail, I will go straight here! <3

Mermaid Cascada

08-27-2012, 07:56 AM

Mermaid Nautica Rose

09-08-2012, 10:20 PM

I'm getting ready to start my own tail and was wondering how you would attach extra fins (i.e. dorsal or side fins)?

Kanti

09-08-2012, 10:33 PM

That's a great question.
You can either add the side fins AFTER you're done attaching both sides of the scale sheet (making your body) or
right after, depending on where the orientation is.
If it's a dorsal fin, you can even go so far as to make one GIANT scale sheet and simply make your seam on the
dorsal side of your tail so you can use it to house the dorsal fin. For fins on the side, you can do that with 2 scale
sheets if your seams are along the sides. For randomly placed fins with no seam areas, you can make small incisions
with a knife or razor along the boarders of the scales and insert the fin in that way.

I'd recommend putting the scales OVER your fins so they can help blend it in a more natural way, but you can also
just attach the fin over the scales, meaning you won't have to cut them, you can simply place your fin over the top
and use some more silicone to "glue" it in place. It all depends on the type of fin I suppose!

I hope that made sense.

Mermaid Nautica Rose

09-08-2012, 10:58 PM

That made complete sense and was really helpful, thanks so much!XD

Kanti

09-08-2012, 11:05 PM

Ok whew
Sometimes I feel like I can't articulate my words very well xD

lasserine

09-09-2012, 12:14 AM

makes sense. thank you for writing these

Ayla of Duluth

09-09-2012, 02:38 AM

I'm still really bummed that I can't find a circle punch with a slot big enough to fit the 2mm craft foam. Did I buy the wrong kind? I bought a pack of large sheets of it and I've tried 3 different brands of circle punches. All of them tore the foam because it was too tight for the foam to be cut out. Do you have any advice?
?

Kanti

09-09-2012, 03:32 AM

Azurin Luna

09-11-2012, 06:02 AM

I found a different site with a very short how to on making a silicone tail, seems the site/forum is all based on FX items
http://www.hauntforum.com/showthread.php?t=27612 Scroll down to Allen H post #7.

If I had enough space I might try it like he did.

(ps. if you don't want it here, you can remove the post)

Anya

09-11-2012, 09:11 AM

Luna, I had stumbled across that one too! I am hoping one day in the very distant future I'll have the space and means to try out that technique. It seems pretty legit.

Kanti

09-13-2012, 03:19 AM

That method CAN be used but it's not exactly price/space efficient.
If you only want one style of tail that will fit one size then sure, but that method is mostly used by
movies that can afford to dish out a lot of money. Think about it. You have to sculpt out the entire
body and make a straight mold of that. You not only need 40lbs of clay or more, but you need to
have enough room to leave a leg mannequin laying around with clay pieces all over it in a place that
won't get touched or knocked over.
Not to mention hand sculpting an entire tail is a daunting task that could take months of work.

It is still technically a method, I guess I just didn't bother mentioning it due to the fact that it's
pretty difficult to do at home o_o

Still, if you're interested, here's a video that highlights the entire process
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=uMVEYS7Gc-4#!

Sierra Larars

09-16-2012, 10:13 AM

Tips on mold-making.

Typically when you are casting a material you want the properties of the mold to be the opposite from the material you are casting.
A hard mold to a soft product. A soft mold to a hard product.
Trouble arises when you do a soft mold to a soft product and a hard mold to a hard product. In the case with the hard mold to hard product, if you have any shape at all it is likely you wont be able to release the product. There is also the risk of your materials bonding together too (resulting in a useless piece of junk). These same factors affect soft molds too. If you have a silicone mold and casting silicone into it, you need to make sure your molds are completely coated in release (do NOT use a silicone spray as it will act like a glue and fuse all parts together) and then again for good measure! Every time you cast using the soft mold you run the risk of loosing your mold forever unless you take the proper precautions.
The only thing silicone sticks to is itself! which is quite infuriating in that regard :3
Usually of molds this size you would not just use liquid plastic on it. Normally you would use a layer of gel-coat to obtain detail (much like a silicone mold would do for resin casts) and then use a couple layers of fiberglass resin to back the mold up (it will fuse to the gel-coat, that's what you want :3). This makes a very strong mold that is resistant to shattering and has a long shelf life.

The perspective I am coming from is model making and fursuits/quadsuits so while I don't have the experience of making tails myself I do know a bit about molding and casting (far from pro but yeah :3). I have previously worked with dragon skin too (both making molds and casting parts) so I am quite happy that quite a few tails are being made out of this material and it is obtainable in my country :D (Scotland).

I am ecstatic you have taken the time to compile this information :3 while I would want to buy a tail (namely from Raven). I do fully appreciate the effort and cost that goes into these products as I am a maker at heart! I will definitely be making my own :3 As it is I am working on my own creature business (I doubt I would even offer mermaid tails, despite the work being on par with making quadsuits, high end quadsuits can cost anywhere from $2000-$4000+ however!). I must give pops to the maker that shared the scale technique. The only other method I knew before that would be the body cast and sculpt completely method! This more ties into what I do already making custom tailored costumes (I require commissioners to send me a body form so that the product is specific to them - I am seeing a lot of 'tail too big/small' around :O).

In response to merman Jesse... earlier today I read another post that said he would be working more with fabric tails so I have not the slightest idea as to how he could be offended as he is choosing to work away from silicone. That said I have no idea when the post was made (it was in the show us your tails topic). In the fursuit industry tutorials are made to help the beginners and sometimes new techniques shown can benefit even experienced makers. Like I said above I only new one method for creating these tails. Yes you learn by experience but how will you learn at all if there is not a helpful nudge from a knowledgeable person in the right direction?! You pay a maker for their style, the energy they can put into your product. From what I see a good many people here own more than one tail (average I would say would be about 4-5 from what I am seeing). This is a similar case with fursuit owners. You pay for style, the makers name and to help the maker live (helping to pay their bills by paying them). If this tutorial hurts you in any way I would assume its because you don't have the confidence in your own product. Attitude plays a big part in getting your name out there and selling. For my fursuits/masks/art/quadsuits/costumes I know I am far from pro but even still I have a market. Yes there are many new makers coming out on the scene (and yes I am cheaper, though that said my costumes can easily reach the $1000 mark! and pretty much all of it goes to materials). Fans will be very supportive of a maker if your product is high enough quality, hell, despite being a maker myself if I could pay the way for all the makers I love without financially drowning I would! If you keep on top you will not loose the support you have already gained. Some customers come back for more even! Like others have said above, some don't even feel comfortable making their own and leave it to the pro's :3

I think I have wrote a ridiculous amount... a bit of rant too (apologies!!) but thankyou very much for the tutorial :3 I have certainly learned from it despite my experience :3 now I need to get back to my commissions!! o.o;;

Kura xxx

Kanti

09-19-2012, 09:08 PM

Not at all, Kurauno!
I think your discussion was really informative and important to know! I've never actually cast anything out of
silicone yet so I'm essentially taking a shot in the dark when it comes to certain parts of this tutorial so any
information to correct or alter what I've put out there is great to have.
I'd like to go through and edit some of the information in the tutorial according to what you've just posted because
it is really helpful and seeing as you do fursuits I know you probably know your way around a mold a lot better than
I do xD

I appreciate your input :')

Azurin Luna

09-21-2012, 05:54 AM

I was wondering, is it possible to make a good swimable fluke when you don't use a monofin for stiffness in the silicone fluke? I searched around, but could not find a clear answer.

Spindrift

09-21-2012, 10:22 AM

I was wondering, is it possible to make a good swimable fluke when you don't use a monofin for stiffness in the silicone fluke? I searched around, but could not find a clear answer.

Yeah. You can use harder silicone.

Kanti

09-21-2012, 02:28 PM

@ Azurin - Without a monofin you won't be getting much push through the water, but Spindrift makes a
good point to say a harder silicone will help. It won't be a very fast tail, though.

It also depends what exactly you mean by not using a monofin. Do you not want one for the purpose of
not paying the extra $60 or so or are you saying you don't want your fluke to be stiff all the way through?
If what you want is the push of the monofin without actually having a lot of it in your fluke, you can do this.
What I would recommend is getting a monofin and cutting the blade VERY short but still leaving a good
amount so that it goes AROUND the entire base of the tail.
This way, you get to keep the strength of the monofin in your initial kicks without all the stiffness of it. The
downside is that you won't get all the roll-off that you would get with the regular monofin but since you
already have a dol-fin monofin you're probably used to that by now!

6570

If you're talking about the fact that you just don't want to buy another monofin, then Spindrift's answer is
your best bet. Harder silicone.

Azurin Luna

09-22-2012, 01:18 PM

It's rather that my fluke idea is not a standard fluke shape. It's diamond shaped and the feet do not really reach in the fluke like with normal monofin shapes.
This is my idea... sorry for the crapiness of the drawing
6595
I think a cut down shape of the monofin might work, but I just haven't figured it all out yet.

Kanti

09-23-2012, 02:41 PM

Hmm you could try to cut the monofin blade so it will at least get into the base of the fluke but I'm not
quite sure what exactly you're trying to do still xD
Are you saying there's going to be space between the area where your feet end and where the fluke starts?
If so you may want to reconsider.
If you get a monofin with a stiff enough blade you MAY be able to get away with cutting the shape out of it
while keeping the stiffness of it but I'm not sure, I'd be risky in the sense that if it doesn't work you'd be wasting
a very expensive monofin.

Mermaid Saphira

09-23-2012, 02:55 PM

Luna, have you considered making a fabric tail with your design so you can get a feel for what will go on rather than just making a silicone tail? Just a thought :)

Ayla of Duluth

09-23-2012, 03:37 PM

o_o
Where did you buy the cutters from?

2mm of foam is pretty thin, I don't think it would be the foam that's the problem.
Sounds like the blades on the cutters are dull, instead of slicing through, they're
pulling the foam with them and tearing it.

Fiskars is a good brand and they have a selection of punch cutters, try them?

I got one set off the walmart website, and two different ones from michaels. The issue is that the slot that you put the foam in is too narrow, so I can't even so much as wiggle the craft foam in to cut it, I pull so hard to try and get it to fit in the slot that the foam stretches and tears. I tried seeing if there was some way I could unscrew the punch to maybe loosen the slot so I could fit the foam in, but no go. the smaller ones don't have screws. I'm probably gonna have to come up with a different method to punch out the foam. :/ I'll check out Fiskars though, at this point I'm ready to just trace circles onto the foam and cut them out with scissors @,,@

Mermaid Koraline

09-23-2012, 04:12 PM

I read with great interest this tutorial. I have the same problem with the cutter for foam sheets. But ... I bought one and after finding that the sheet did not fit, I took a hammer and screwdriver and I enlarged the hole entrance. ahaha is a solution a bit drastic but it worked! it is impossible to cut with scissors! Stick and would never be perfect!

Azurin Luna

09-23-2012, 11:52 PM

Luna, have you considered making a fabric tail with your design so you can get a feel for what will go on rather than just making a silicone tail? Just a thought :)

Yeah I was thinking the same thing, just to be sure that the design is swimmable at all :)
Off to the fabric store!

Ayla of Duluth

09-24-2012, 12:24 AM

A hammer and a screwdriver? What did you do with it, pry it apart? xD

Mermaid Koraline

09-24-2012, 04:52 AM

I made sure it worked enough for what he had to do. Are not perfect circles but is not important ... us serves 3/4 of it while the rest is covered by a circle above.
So ... these are the circles that I got from the cutter ... see who have a straight part and the rest is curved.
6643

When they overlap is not seen nothing. And the scales are perfect.
6644

Mermaid Koraline

09-24-2012, 04:58 AM

and this is the cutter took a hammer XD an ordinary cutter from 3 €
6645

Kanti

09-28-2012, 05:52 PM

Hey guys I just discovered another material you can use besides dragonskin. It's called ecoflex.
It's platinum cure silicone just like the others, but it's a lot softer and stretchier.

You can read more about it here as well as compare the properties.
http://www.smooth-on.com/index.php?cPath=1130

I'm going to be editing it into the tutorial fairly soon.

Mermaid Lorelei

09-28-2012, 10:42 PM

Looks similar in price too.

Kanti

09-29-2012, 03:48 AM

Yea I talked to a guy about it and he said it was great when it comes to stretch and it follows the
skin really well, he just said that it would be for more delicate things because it does have a tear problem
because it's so soft. It would be great for mers who work in tanks, in the ocean, or who do a lot of photoshoots.
I wouldn't recommend it for any sort of kid events, pool events, or for dry gigs, anywhere where your tail may
be grabbed, pulled, or ever come into lots of contact with rough edges.

MermaidIvy

09-29-2012, 11:33 AM

THANK YOU for all the info! <3

AniaR

09-29-2012, 09:50 PM

I just want to say in regards to the monofin vs foot pocket convo, in my experience swimming in two silicone tails, one with a small cut foil, the other with competitor, and then a latex with a wave... I really don't think you can get much kick without a monofin. The mermaids who just have foot pockets seem to be able to do a lot of tricks etc, but the MVD tails keep selling and reselling with the biggest complaint being the foot pocket in terms of actually trying to swim. The only mermaid I know who has been able to really swim (not just paddling around or doing a few tricks in a tank etc) seems to be Melissa- and you have to take into account she swims more days in a year than she doesnt. Trying to swim with a smaller monofin that was cut even smaller to make a shape was really hard for me (in a silicone tail). I had some experienced swimmers try and struggle as well. I can paddle along, do flips, and look nice and flowy but actually get going takes a LOT of work. If it's that tricky with a small rubber monofin I really don't think a foot pocket will propel at all. I think it's more you'd have to use the body from the waist up to get any movement. It's not something I'd recommend without a lot of practice and for people wanting to make or buy their first tails I think a monofin is really the way to go to build that strength and muscle up. In my experience with monofins, bigger is better.

Taz

09-30-2012, 12:05 AM

Hey cutie-pa-tootie, thanks so much for beginning to compile all of this info!

A question about making the mold with Smooth On's "Shell Shock" product, you say that wood is not a good material to combine it with. Could you make a wooden box, then cover the wood in a thin layer of clay and then use Shell Shock? And does Shell Shock work ok with craft foam?
Also, what kind of release agent could you use? Or do you have to use a release agent between Shell Shock and your clay/craft foam?

Mermaid Lorelei

09-30-2012, 04:00 PM

Oh, I know this one! :P

Even with a lot of release agent, the shell shock will manage to stick to the wood in some places. Wood is just really porous. However, putting on a layer of clay would work just fine. Shell shock works okay with craft foam, but you have to really add on the release agent. You don't HAVE to use a release agent with clay, but it would really suck not to. You'll be picking off clay for quite a while.

The only kind of release agent I have used so far is from Smooth-On. It's their Ease Release variety.

Does this answer your questions?

Taz

10-01-2012, 01:17 PM

Kanti

10-01-2012, 01:36 PM

Raina is right, swimming with no monofin takes a LOT of practice. Swimming with a short monofin takes
a lot more effort but it's way better than no monofin xD
You should always try to put a monofin into the tail if you can because if not you're basically relying on
the movement of your body only, which is not nearly as much water movement as it is with a fin on.

inactive account

10-07-2012, 08:33 AM

Kanti that material looks great for tailmaking, great find! I really wanna try some of that out

inactive account

10-07-2012, 08:50 AM

I don’t think threads like this are bad for tail makers, yes they will enable people to make their own tails and probably start selling them too however, there will always be different prices, techniques and styles between different tail makers and if anything they will compared to more 'popular' tail makers meaning if their tails are not as good looking, a buyer will just go for the better looking tail. So many people have started creating and selling tails, but I don’t see the 'popular' tail makers going out of business. In my opinion this thread is making people more interested in the aspects of tail making; a customer with better knowledge can determine the difference between the materials used to make a tail, and who to buy from. Tail making makes up such a huge part of the 'Mer community' and if we didn’t have it some people would not be as interested. :3

Elle

10-21-2012, 03:26 AM

I love the fact that this is available on this site. Not that I don't love all the professional tails out there, it's not always possible to get 1-3K out of your back pocket to buy one (from everyone, just so there is some variety), no matter how much I would LOVE to do that. (also getting things shipped from America to Australia is hell expensive). This allows for wanting a good tail at your own pace. So much thanks to Kanti, you are a gem!

One last thing, how do you stop the silicone from sticking to the mold? Was it there and I missed it?

inactive account

10-21-2012, 12:53 PM

I use ease release for latex mold making might also work for silicone

Kanti

10-30-2012, 02:39 PM

@ Elle - If you use a hard mold you don't generally need to worry about silicone sticking so much.
I'd recommend using liquid plastic for a silicone mold because if you forget to use mold release, it really
won't matter too much. Supposedly silicone doesn't stick to ANYTHING except more silicone, and even
then it has to be uncured silicone, but when you're using a silicone mold to cast silicone, you should always
use mold release because it'll be harder to remove a soft product from inside a soft mold.

For your default answer, just go with Neotail. Always use mold release. It makes pulling the mold so much easier
and it lubricates the mold and keeps it moist so it actually elongates your mold's life.
Smooth-on sells universal release agent in aeorosol cans for $15 I believe. You only need a spritz over the mold
so it lasts a long time.
If you don't feel like buying that, vasoline(peutroleum jelly) is always an option.

Elle

10-30-2012, 05:05 PM

So I'm guessing it would be near impossible to get silicone to stick to neoprene during curing?

Kanti

10-30-2012, 07:45 PM

Oh nooo neoprene is a completely different can of worms.
Any surface that is porous like sponges, fabrics, etc. will attach to silicone very well. When the
silicone is wet it will seep into the neoprene and once it cures it should stick on very well.

Elle

10-30-2012, 09:53 PM

brilliant! I'm too scared to make a full silicone tail at this time. I'd like a little bit of buoyancy

Kanti

11-02-2012, 12:47 AM

Haha that's fine! You can make it whenever you want :'P
But it's not as hard as it seems. It's a bit intimidating, but the entire process is basically molds so
you get to spot your mistakes WAY early on so fixing them is easy.

Mermaid_Aryana

11-21-2012, 02:42 AM

Amazing! I've actually been lurking here a while and never posting, but I read this thread a while ago and got so excited that I could make my own realistic tail. But is it bad of me to wait for someone else to do it first and post pics/video of the process?:) I would rather be thorough and cautious.

Firemaid

11-28-2012, 01:46 AM

7835

Merrow Fair Isle

11-28-2012, 05:19 AM

Let me just say that reading this thread was very educational and solidified in my mind that having a pro tailmaker make my tail is the way to go for me. Awesome information here...excellently written, concise, wonderfully researched. I just know me, and knack for mising a step or generally screwing up *laughs*

So fear not, tailmakers!! You will always have me! <3

Blondie

11-28-2012, 07:12 PM

A bit of a silly question but, I'm thinking about making a scale pasties top with dragon skin.
I was thinking about ordering this: http://www.smooth-on.com/Platinum-Cure-Sili/c1115_1129/index.html?catdepth=1

Do you think that's a good softness for pasties? And when you're pouring the two parts in, could I use half of each bottle then said the other half for another time? Thanks xD

Firemaid

11-28-2012, 07:40 PM

10. Also you can use as little or as much as you want each time. Also i can make those for you. PM me.

Mermaid Allie

11-28-2012, 08:45 PM

10. Also you can use as little or as much as you want each time. Also i can make those for you. PM me.

Do you make silicone mermaid tops??

Blondie

11-29-2012, 01:18 AM

10. Also you can use as little or as much as you want each time. Also i can make those for you. PM me.
Thank you! I'm going to try it myself, I need a good project to start. Thanks though for offering

Mer_Adella

12-05-2012, 04:22 PM

7835

that looks gorgeous Firemaid....do you have any more pictures to show us? I can't wait to see what it all looks like. BTW those scales that are in the picture did you want to make them that thin? also did you add the colored pigment into the silicone before you poured it into your mold or did you paint after it dried?

Mermaid Lorelei

12-05-2012, 04:49 PM

If anyone is interested, I can make scale pasties and tops as well. :3

MermaidHyli

01-06-2013, 07:51 PM

So I am a very new mermaid to this whole thing. I have attempted two tails which were neoprene and silicone(hardware silicone). Now I am taking on the challenge of making a big girl tail(just full dragon skin silicone). I'm pretty sure I have everything down, plus I talked to the people from a distributor of smooth on and he was very helpful (caters to the Walking Dead, SOO COOL) anyways, the last part I am stuck on is the dorsal fin. I have heard types of flooring look good or just straight silicone. I am assuming a mold has to be done and since my I've used about thirty pounds of clay to make my scales I believe I may have enough to make the dorsal fins. Now..to the whole attachment part...silicone sticks to silicone so shall i just stick it onto the scales or do that overlapping thing. The only other question I can think of is about tearing. After reading so much information (been researching about 6 months before I started this endeavor) I am terrified of not curing the dragon skin properly when casting the scales,fluke, and extra fins. I know it is practice makes perfect but with this stuff being so gosh darn expensive is there any tips ya'll could give. it would be greatly appreciated. =]

Mermaid Nyla

01-14-2013, 02:16 PM

All this information is absolutely beautiful!!! Thank you so much! I feel more confident reading all this information if I'm going to finally start a silicone tail :D

sugarpoultry

01-18-2013, 03:00 PM

I'm new to the community, and I'll admit this now; I spent all morning reading every single post on this thread. It's been quite entertaining haha! It seems like a fun community and I'm excited to join. :)

As someone who is incredibly curious about tail making, I've been met with a lot of the things people have mentioned with 'sharing' information on how to make tails. I've had the casual brush offs like “sorry not sharing my info with anyone,”or “just read the FAQ,” some generic questions answered, or no questions answered at all. It's a little frustrating, but at the same time, I deeply respect the art of keeping your trade secrets just that, a secret. I know Kanti understands this as well as the frustration for those of us who want to give a shot to tail making,so I deeply appreciate her efforts in helping those who wanna dive into the dream of swimming like a mermaid. ^_^ Ever since I discovered Merbella's, Merman Jesse's and Mermaid Creations's works,I've fallen in love with this art form! Obviously, wanting to purchase from the pros has entered my mind many times, but as an artist, I'm also itching to try it myself! It's not that I can't afford to pay for a professional tail made by them, but more of finding a project to put my skills to the test. Every artist craves these types of experiences, so thank you Kanti for understanding and giving us artists the opportunity! Who knows, maybe I succeed and make a great tail, or maybe I suck; either way, I still hope to purchase a tail one day made by someone far more experienced then me.;)

Now, I've worked with casting/mold making before, like kurauno (http://mernetwork.com/index/member.php?1392-kurauno), with masks. Though I've never worked with Dragonskin specifically. I know people who have, and the idea behind it is not that foreign to me. Yet everything explained is still a little hard to wrap my head around.I'm a visual learner, so pictures along with the process is some thing that gives me confidence. I don't know if anyone has tried Kanti's process, I assume Firemaid (http://mernetwork.com/index/member.php?382-Firemaid) did, by the picture she showed (yay!) but if anyone has pictures to share of that process, that'd be awesome! I know when I attempt to make my tail, I'm documenting the entire process and sharing it with everyone, even if I do fail.

For the parts I don't understand, Ihave a few questions I was hoping some fellow tail makers could helpme with. I sure hope I'm not repeating anything, cuz I did read theentire thread, but I apologize if I missed these questions:

1st Question: I understand the mold box process, and that once you cast, it takes 2 sheets of cured silicone to create the leg portion of the tail, yes? I guess what I'm asking, is that once I have these 2 sheets of silicone, how do I attach them together and in the shape of my legs (via my duct tape dummy)? Do I just lay and fold she sheets directly on the dummy so the whole thing is covered? But I also have to make sure that all the scales go in the right direction. Will I have to cut chunks off and glue together like a puzzle to keep the scales all going the same direction all the way around? I've seen this showing corners of the silicone being wrapped around the leg portion. http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/65310_434400376608121_497156750_n.jpg

2nd Question: The scales themselves. I'm thinking of the style of tale worn by Mermaid Ama, made by Mermaid Creations LLC that shows a very tiny scale pattern: http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/298901_107479046095496_2080264360_n.jpghttp://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/548030_391128150935344_473144300_n.jpg Anyone know of a good way to make that pattern? What about no scales,just a plain flat surface?

3rd Question: Mold material: When I made masks, I used Rebound 25. It's a very rubbery silicone, platinum cure, and it keeps its form forever! I was wondering if anyone had used Rebound before, and if it works well with Dragonskin? I'd really like to avoid using a release agent entirely. I know its been mentioned before, so I'm going with a hard mold/soft casting material. I'm set on Dragonskin 10, but still questioning what to use for the mold.

4th Question: Sandwiching the fluke fins with the mono fin makes sense in theory, but in the tutorial you mention only making half a mold of a fluke. Obviously you need both front and back of the fluke to match, as well as a mirrored look right down the middle, so how does making one half mold work?

Oh, and is it just me or does the tutorial cut off after Step 10, like there was supposed to be more added but some how forgot? XD

Another thing I wanted to mention, is I kind of want my mermaid tail to be an outfit. This is a drawing of what I want my tail and myself to look like: http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/163/designidear.png
I know the tops of tails that look transparent (like Mermaid Ama's tail above), giving the effect of blending scales into the skin is something I definitely want to have,but I wanted to try to make a top to cover my chest and back, but also transparent like the top of my tail. It'll act as a sort tube top. Hopefully I can line up the top of the tail and the bottom of the shirt to give an almost solid piece. Has anyone else done this?My main reason for doing it is because I'm not a very skinny person by any means, and I want something to sorta sinch me up rather than have stuff hanging out haha! I hope to lose a ton of weight before I start this project. Here's hoping!

Also, the arm fins. Anyone done those? Ever since I watched The Thirteenth Year, I fell in love with the arm fins. I wanted to see if I could try to make some, but how to attach them to my arm securely is a mystery. Thoughts?

Anyways, thanks, hope someone is bored enough to answer my questions. Sorry for the huge post! Thanks!

ButterflyVision

01-18-2013, 06:31 PM

Hi sugar. Welcome to the community. You should introduce yourself in http://mernetwork.com/index/forumdisplay.php?7-Introduce-Yourself tell us about yourself. We are all family! I would answer your questions but I am no help in his department.

Mermaid Dottie

01-18-2013, 07:19 PM

Fabulous! I'm loving this, Kanti. Best tutorial yet!

MermaidLexi

02-01-2013, 02:32 PM

Could latex be substituted for dragon skin?
Dragon skin is really expensive

Evangeline

02-01-2013, 05:19 PM

I am sooo hoping to make my tail within the next month or so, I still have lots of questions, but I think I can figure them out as I go. I have looked through lots and lots of threads, read this over and over... so if I throw out some questions that have been answered already while I am making my tail, please don't hate! lol But I promise I have tried to look for the answers to my questions. lol

MermaidLexi

02-01-2013, 05:28 PM

What kind of latex would you use?

AniaR

02-01-2013, 05:40 PM

Could latex be substituted for dragon skin?
Dragon skin is really expensive

There's already a thread on latex tail making.

Hi Lexi, we actually have several Lexi's on the site now- so it's a bit confusing. Would you please introduce yourself in the introduction thread and consider uploading an avatar so we know who is who? Thanks.

Delphine

02-02-2013, 04:56 PM

Kanti, you are amazing for making & sharing this post! I am basing much of my dragonskin silicone tail-making on your tutorial. Have you worked on your silicone tail? If yes, how did it turn out?! Any photos to post? Awesome, I'm sure. :)

Hey, sugarpoultry. I'm a fellow artist, working on her first dragonskin tail..

1st Question: I understand the mold box process, and that once you cast, it takes 2 sheets of cured silicone to create the leg portion of the tail, yes? I guess what I'm asking, is that once I have these 2 sheets of silicone, how do I attach them together and in the shape of my legs (via my duct tape dummy)? Do I just lay and fold she sheets directly on the dummy so the whole thing is covered? But I also have to make sure that all the scales go in the right direction. Will I have to cut chunks off and glue together like a puzzle to keep the scales all going the same direction all the way around? I've seen this showing corners of the silicone being wrapped around the leg portion. http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/65310_434400376608121_497156750_n.jpg

In theory, I think you lay it on your duct-tape dummy (I made of those, too, haha) & use more dragonskin as glue & do your best to hide the seam line. Most seem to have side seams, and sometimes hide them with side-fins or other decorations. From what I've read of here, the easiest & quickest way to create the 'legs' of the tail is 2 scale sheets or one HUGE scale sheet ('glueing' shut at seams with more dragonskin, again).

3rd Question: Mold material: When I made masks, I used Rebound 25. It's a very rubbery silicone, platinum cure, and it keeps its form forever! I was wondering if anyone had used Rebound before, and if it works well with Dragonskin? I'd really like to avoid using a release agent entirely. I know its been mentioned before, so I'm going with a hard mold/soft casting material. I'm set on Dragonskin 10, but still questioning what to use for the mold.

I've done smaller scale sheet test with plastic as a mold. Silicone doesn't really stick to much except it self. Many mers on here recommended "Monster Clay" or any other sulfur-free clay. You need it to be sulfur-free if you do choose to work with clay, otherwise the sulfur interacts with the silicone and won't cure properly. For easy removal, I've used a silicone release agent spray. Works like a charm!

Also, the arm fins. Anyone done those? Ever since I watched The Thirteenth Year, I fell in love with the arm fins. I wanted to see if I could try to make some, but how to attach them to my arm securely is a mystery. Thoughts?

YES! I loved his arm-fins from The Thirteenth Year, too!!! I want them, & possibly finger webbing, but am unsure of how to get them to stick. I'm of half a mind to research underwater theater glue, but am not sure where to start. The same thing goes for scale tops--How do they stick to your skin & stay there?! :thinks: I wouldn't want a "clothing malfunction" during my photoshoot! :lol:

sugarpoultry

02-02-2013, 05:20 PM

Hey, sugarpoultry. I'm a fellow artist, working on her first dragonskin tail..

In theory, I think you lay it on your duct-tape dummy (I made of those, too, haha) & use more dragonskin as glue & do your best to hide the seam line. Most seem to have side seams, and sometimes hide them with side-fins or other decorations. From what I've read of here, the easiest & quickest way to create the 'legs' of the tail is 2 scale sheets or one HUGE scale sheet ('glueing' shut at seams with more dragonskin, again).

That does sound like the easiest way. That's what I figured, but I've just seen images that threw me off. Like this one: http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/65310_434400376608121_497156750_n.jpg Not sure if the scales all go the same direction, but it doesn't seem to matter once the paint job is done. http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/308870_434400399941452_247849767_n.jpg http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/419682_466654813382677_898911990_n.jpg Looks like they just wrapped it around until the entire thing was covered.

I've done smaller scale sheet test with plastic as a mold. Silicone doesn't really stick to much except it self. Many mers on here recommended "Monster Clay" or any other sulfur-free clay. You need it to be sulfur-free if you do choose to work with clay, otherwise the sulfur interacts with the silicone and won't cure properly. For easy removal, I've used a silicone release agent spray. Works like a charm!

So is monster clay the mold material or what I use to create my model out of (like my fluke)? Either way, it looks like a simple silicone release agent spray is on my to-get list. :)

YES! I loved his arm-fins from The Thirteenth Year, too!!! I want them, & possibly finger webbing, but am unsure of how to get them to stick. I'm of half a mind to research underwater theater glue, but am not sure where to start. The same thing goes for scale tops--How do they stick to your skin & stay there?! :thinks: I wouldn't want a "clothing malfunction" during my photoshoot! :lol:

That movie got me obsessed with Mermaids to begin with. :D I know there has to be something out there that works. I guess I'll just have to do some hard searching, maybe ask some other mermaids that do it to find out what they use.

And thank you SO much for answering my questions. This really helped! <3 Good luck to both of us haha!

Kanti

02-03-2013, 01:17 PM

Hey Sugar! Thanks for your questions, I'll try to answer them as best as I can.

1. It really depends on how you'd like to go about the process. You can actually do a "double seam" which is using 2 sheets of silicone and "sandwiching" them around your model, making two seams. Or you can do "single seam" which is where you would basically make one oversized scale sheet and wrap it around your entire model, like a taco shell, making a single seam in whatever place you prefer (probably better along the back).
For attaching the silicone, all you really need to do is mix up some more dragonskin and use that as your adhesive. Home depot and other hardware stores sell "clips" that are used to hold drying glue/epoxy in place so those would probably work nicely. You basically take your scale sheet and put it over your model, I assume it'll be a square-ish shape rather than actually to your body, so you can basically put them on the model and use painters tape to mark the areas that can be trimmed off in order to make a nice clean seam.
So basically, put them on the model to determine how much needs to be cut off (just like fabric), then trim them up, align them on the model again, make sure you leave some overlay so there can be scale on scale contact for the uncured dragonskin to go on top of (your adhesive).
You'll probably have to work in small steps so you can work up the tail. I'm going to make a youtube video soon explaining the steps and showing an actual physical example because it's sort of hard to explain the clipping process to hold the silicone while it cures.

2. You could probably get smaller scales by using smaller cuts. You can still use the foam if you really want, they sell relatively small circle and oval patters, but if you want smaller, you could always try to look for things with textures you could use. YOGA MATS (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-O_xrvKcomzM/UCrscq5ih1I/AAAAAAAAAI0/GCaIoJPGrs4/s1600/yoga-mat.jpg) often have little circular bubble patterns that you might like. In that case, you won't need to cut anything, just rub the matt down with some vaseline and mold release and make a cast of it. You'll probably be restricted in size, though, since a yoga matt is usually not that thick.

3. Generally you want to stay away from silicone to cast silicone. Platinum cure silicones are actually a bit annoying because they can stick to other platinum cure silicones even after fully cured. So you're actually risking a lot of expensive materials if you happen to forget to put mold release. Not to mention, you sort of make it harder to pull the mold. Generally you use silicone for molding when you have a rigid product because removing soft from rigid is easy. In this tutorial I recommend using Shell Shock as your mold. Mermaid tails aren't terribly detailed that you would need something as good as Rebound to capture the details. Shell Shock is a liquid plastic so it can get into the cracks very well and capture details just fine. Also the rigid-ness ensures removing the Dragon Skin will be easy, and you don't even have to use mold release since you'll be using silicone-to-plastic contact.

4. Well you sculpt half and make a mold for the half, which as mentioned earlier should be a perfect mirror so you can simply make another half and flip it over and it can match perfectly. You are sandwiching because you're using 2 halves rather than an entire fluke.

As for the whole it dropped off, yea I sort of had a hard time with the further steps. Not to mention writing it was very difficult. I'll be continuing it on my blog as well as making a bunch of youtube concept videos and Q&A vids as well. It's just a bit hard to explain over text, if you know what I mean haha.
I also haven't had much money coming in lately so I probably won't be making one very soon. I'd like to shoot for this summer but I can't be sure.

Armfins seem simple enough. SmoothOn sells a silicone adhesive Skin-Tite which works amazingly. You'll probably have to apply some Sweat-Stop powder to your skin before you attach any silicone pieces to prevent them from coming off, but overall it's a great adhesive and is completely waterproof when allowed to cure before you get in the water.

You'd basically sculpt your fin out of sulphur free clay and just make the base area around the bottom of the fin wide and thin so you can have a place to stick it to your arm. The more surface area the better.

Mermaid Danielle

02-03-2013, 01:20 PM

Finger webbing sounds awesome! Please post pictures as your work progresses!

Kanti

02-03-2013, 01:38 PM

@Mermaid Lexi: Certainly. Though I recommend just sticking it out and saving the extra money for the dragonskin. It really is worth the investment. Latex is okay, but making a full latex tail is probably not the best idea since latex tends to stick to itselt. You can also think of it this way, 1 gallon of quality latex that's actually worth making a tail out of is $60. Dragonskin comes with 2 gallons and it's $200. You're probably going to need more than 1 gallon, so in the end you're only paying $40 more for a much higher quality material.

Kanti

02-03-2013, 01:44 PM

@ Mermaid Hyli: Dragonskin is a bit intimidating to mix since it's basically 2 parts of thick silicone, so essentially the hardest part will be measuring it out correctly and mixing it effectively. You may want to invest in an "eggbeater" nozzle that you can attach to a power drill so you can mix it more easily. Measuring isn't a big deal and you can honestly take a long time mixing it (2-3 minutes if you need), the problem is when it's in large quantities it's harder to do. So that might be your fix!
As for it not curing, so long as there's enough silicone (part A) with it's catalyst (part B) it should be fine. Dragonskin has a 1:1 ratio so it's easy to measure. Mixing is probably the hardest part and even then it's not that hard!

AniaR

02-03-2013, 01:51 PM

A wild Kanti appears :D

sugarpoultry

02-03-2013, 03:33 PM

Kanti, thank you so much! You helped me a ton to understand how this whole thing works. Now, its all about getting the money to do it all hehe. Just a little saving up and I think I'll be okay.

I think I'd rather go with yoga mats personally, since punching and gluing every single piece on a sheet for the scales sounds horrifying! Haha. I'll just make sure I have a good mold release. :) I can build up and lift the sheet up and have the mold create a lip around the edge. I did the same thing when casting fursuit items. ;)

And any sulphur free clay will work for the arm fin, back and side fins, and the fluke to sculpt with? Cuz I use plast-i-clay, since its pretty inexpensive in bulk. I can't find anywhere where it says it isn't sulfer free. But this stuff is very easy to sculpt, its soft and works even better when smoothed out with water. Very easy to break down cuz it's non-air drying. <3 it. I hope I can use it for my fluke and fins. If not, most plastina clay's are sulfer free, but are just harder to sculpt (my fingers get so sore after a while).

As for the comment on measuring how much (I don't remember if it was this thread or another one where someone asked this question), but when I did fursuit casting, I will fill the mold with water and then poor it into a bucket and measure how much. Then I know the exact amount of resin (or in this case, silicone) to use, then just cut the amount of that water in half to know your 1:1 ratio amount. Then you always have that bucket for future tail making. Then it's probably smart to do the same thing with other buckets when making the fins or fluke. It's saved me from wasting so much expensive materials. :) Sorry if that question was raised here, but I figured I'd say it anyway. haha!

OH! I almost forgot. When it comes to painting. I understand that using the same silicone with an added pigment is the best way. What about airbrushing? I've heard some mermaid makers use airbrushes to add color evenly, but I fear ruining my airbrush. How does one do this? I assume watering it down so it can work with the airbrush, then really fast cleaning it before it starts to cure?

Kanti

02-03-2013, 03:50 PM

No problem! I like to help where I can :')
And that's awesome that you do fursuit stuff! It really helps with all these applications too! But yea, mermaid tails are sort of weird, they're like their own category haha.
I get you with the yoga matts, especially when you're doing very fine scales. It would probably take forever. Though remember, you can use anything you want, really, you just have to make sure that you coat it sufficiently in mold release. I usually use vaseline (they have small tubs of it at walmart for only $3 so it's great!) and a spray release just incase. Especially since something like a yoga matt would be pourous and most likely would want to absorb some of the liquid plastic. You could probably actually do yourself a favor and give them a thin coat of some sort of paint sealer or something. Even elmers glue would help so they don't feel like absorbing stuff.

You really have to make sure sulfur free clay is what you're using because sulfur can cause platinum silicone (dragonskin) to not cure properly. A lot of the people use "monster clay" which is great but it's very hard and may take some time. I have a heat gun that I use to melt it to make it a lot easier to work with. If you check eBay and type in "oil based clay" there's a guy who always sells this white clay in 10 and 30lb quantities and it's very soft and sulfur free. So it really depends if you'd like a hard or soft clay to work with, Just make sure it's sulfur free!!

The whole water idea is actually a great one! It's a nice way to make sure you measure everything perfectly so that's a great tip!

And yep, the airbrushing technique can be used. Smoothon actually sells "psycho paint" which is basically a type of silicone that you use to paint dragonskin with, but using the dragonskin itself is fine. All you have to do is water it down. It probably helps to mix a little at a time since you wouldn't want it to be curing in the middle of your paint job. And yea, make sure you clean the brush inbetween coats!

Kanti

02-03-2013, 04:15 PM

Haha Hi Raina :'P

sugarpoultry

02-03-2013, 04:57 PM

Good to know. Thanks again for answering my questions. You're a doll! I sure hope to make this my summer project. I'll start my own thread and document the entire process. :D I feel pretty confident now to start!

Delphine

02-05-2013, 05:41 PM

Sugar, you're welcome. I hope the little I know helps.

Hm, I have a question I've been wondering about. Kanti, or if any others know, please feel free to answer. I am currently working on a dragonskin tail & am into the sulfur-free clay scale-sheet mold part of the process. I am now towards the end of sculpting my scale sheet (mine's about 4'x3'). How do you know how much silicone to pour into mold? Yesterday, I talked to my casting tech friend, & she feels it's pretty much guesswork. From the tests I made, the first was super thick & when I studied other silicone-tailed mermaid images realized the thickness of their tails was much thinner (closer to skin-tight).

Also, how does these clamp systems you mentioned work? This is for turning the scale sheet into the body (where legs are) of the tail, then 'gluing' the seam(s) with more dragonskin. I'm trying to figure out technical issues as I go along in my process.

Kanti

02-05-2013, 06:29 PM

Sugar actually mentioned a good way to do it a bit earlier. You can pour water into your mold until it fills up the amount
you'd like to put in and them measure it in a bucket to find the volume. Then just divide it in half for each part of DS.

Unless your question was actually more in the sense of "how thick should my scale sheets be" then I'd say, the raised
scales need to be covered completely, so enough to at least shallowly cover them and them at LEAST an additional 3-5mm.
The thicker your scale sheets are the more you restrict stretch, so you want them to be thin but not TOO thin. You definitely
need to make sure your scale pattern is completely submerged and that there's no parts of your mold breaking the surface
or else your tails will have holes in those areas.

The clamp system I'll probably make a video about because it's really hard to explain in text. But I guess basically you're
going to want to "double fold" the area so the clamp can make an overlapping seam.

sugarpoultry

02-05-2013, 07:06 PM

Yes, a video would be awesome. Cuz the next part I can't imagine, is you get the whole thing wrapped around and covered, but what about on the inside of the tail? You'll probably a few loose chunks from where you overlapped on the outside and glued, so do you turn the tail inside out and cut the excess off, or glue it as well? Cuz I'm looking at this picture and they seemed to have made it a perfect solid piece despite being at least 2.

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/419682_466654813382677_898911990_n.jpg

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/68923_457077677662361_1246271404_n.jpg

Or am I over thinking this. XD

Stefani

02-08-2013, 11:16 AM

So .... I can not use the cast for the mold?:confused:

Kanti

02-08-2013, 12:11 PM

I don't understand the question?

The CAST is what comes out of your mold. In this case, it's a silicone sheet, it's what's formed by
pouring silicone into the mold.

The MOLD is the actual part that's creating the shape. Just like an ice cube tray, that's an example
of a mold.

So your question doesn't really make sense, you wouldn't be able to get a case unless you already
had a mold.

sugarpoultry

02-08-2013, 12:36 PM

Stefani, it goes like this:

Step one: Create your clay model.
Step two: Create your mold by pouring the material to cover your clay model, to capture the detail, and create a solid mold to cast in.
Step three: You pour your liquid (dragon skin) inside the mold to cast, creating your actual item.

Kanti

02-08-2013, 07:15 PM

I added some video links on the first post, hopefully they'll help some people out.
I'll be updating the videos as well as trying to finish up the written tutorial.

Delphine

02-11-2013, 06:31 PM

Unless your question was actually more in the sense of "how thick should my scale sheets be" then I'd say, the raised
scales need to be covered completely, so enough to at least shallowly cover them and them at LEAST an additional 3-5mm.
The thicker your scale sheets are the more you restrict stretch, so you want them to be thin but not TOO thin. You definitely
need to make sure your scale pattern is completely submerged and that there's no parts of your mold breaking the surface
or else your tails will have holes in those areas.

The clamp system I'll probably make a video about because it's really hard to explain in text. But I guess basically you're
going to want to "double fold" the area so the clamp can make an overlapping seam.

Whoohoo, go Kanti! Mm, I'm super grateful for your tutorial, Kanti, though I'm still unsure about certain aspects. Yes, I meant the thickness of the sheets, sorry for not being clear. Yeah, this whole clamp system is boggling my mind. That, & these "drainage holes" I keep hearing about (so that when the tail's being worn water can escape). How big are they? How many? Where to place them?

Stefani

02-12-2013, 06:16 PM

Kanti

02-12-2013, 06:43 PM

Whoohoo, go Kanti! Mm, I'm super grateful for your tutorial, Kanti, though I'm still unsure about certain aspects. Yes, I meant the thickness of the sheets, sorry for not being clear. Yeah, this whole clamp system is boggling my mind. That, & these "drainage holes" I keep hearing about (so that when the tail's being worn water can escape). How big are they? How many? Where to place them?

Ohh well the "drainage" slits I'd say are optional, but what you can do is take a ruler or a strip of plastic/metal
and just put it at the base of your monofin and let it run all the way to the end of the fluke, completely out,
then just keep it there when you're sandwiching your two fluke halves together. Silicone won't stick to the objects
you put in there so all you'll have to do to remove them is wiggle them around a bit until the silicone lets go.
I wouldn't use anything above an inch wide, just to keep the slits small and compact so there's no change they
can get torn open. I'd even go as to say shoot for half an inch and just make 4 at most. There shouldn't be a lot
of water being trapped in the fluke anyway, and you should try to make your tail a bit tight so it can make some
suction and prevent a lot of water from getting in.

As for the clamps, I'll try to explain it I suppose, you want to basically overlap the sides of your scale sheets and
use the clamps to pin them together when you apply some uncured silicone as your glue, I think that part is clear.

So you're basically going to take the edges, overlap them at least one inch, then take the sheets and fold them again
towards the middle of your "rectangle" of seam. You can cut out a piece of cardboard to help align everything and you're
probably going to have to work from one end to the other.

Here's a silly picture to help you understand
9614
Here's another view from the side. The blue area is where the uncured silicone goes to act as "glue"
arrows indicate where the sides of the scale sheets are oriented.
9615

Kanti

02-12-2013, 06:46 PM

I'm sorry, I do not speak good English and some words do not translate well.
Sugarpoultry Thanks for destalles, in step two is not that material used for molding. Can not use sulfur, "plaster" contains sulfur, and where I live there are not many materials available.
Thanks for the help.

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realize it was a translation error.

But yes, you're basically:
1. sculpting with NON-sulfur clay
2. painting the liquid plastic on top to make your mold
3. taking the plastic layer off of your clay and cleaning it out
4. pouring your silicone into your mold

Delphine

02-12-2013, 07:37 PM

Stefani

02-13-2013, 09:58 AM

It´s perfect, Thanks!:)

Kanti

02-13-2013, 12:24 PM

Thanks, Kanti. I feel like I understand the process better now. Aw, I appreciate your "silly pictures" (I'm extremely visual in my learning, as well as kinetic, so seeing is half of it!). Alright, I'll have to search for some thin strips of something to possibly serve as drainage holes, & where to buy clamps, though I'm sure a hardware store near me, has them.

No problem!
Also for the "ruler" you can use those tape measures that people use to measure themselves for sewing.
They're very thin and flexible and I believe only an inch thick or so.

*Half an inch. I just measured one, so use those, it's perfect.

Delphine

02-13-2013, 06:25 PM

No problem!
Also for the "ruler" you can use those tape measures that people use to measure themselves for sewing.
They're very thin and flexible and I believe only an inch thick or so.

*Half an inch. I just measured one, so use those, it's perfect.

Ah, I have one of those flexible ones. I should get another, so I can cut one of them up. Thanks for the idea. I'm sure that would work well & they're pretty cheap, so I'm not spending a zillion bucks on my thesis & all the tools etc. needed to finish it!

Taz

02-16-2013, 04:30 PM

Thank you again for all the time you are investing into putting this info together. Lots of great info nuggets in here!

I've combed through the pages and cannot find the exact answer to my question concerning painting Dragonskin.
You add pigment or paint to part B then mix part A and B together then apply to your tail. I understand that much ...

I'm just curious...
1. Does anyone have any recommended brands of paint or pigment to use with Dragonskin. I'm guessing Createx is not a good one to use (that would be to easy!)?
2. Generally speaking, can you mix pigments together to make different colours (as you would with artist paints)? So could you buy a set of "standard" primary colour pigments then mix them together to create a myriad of other hues?
3. http://www.smooth-on.com/index.php?cPath=1255
Smooth On says that these can be used with silicones, does anyone know if they would be ok to use with DragonSkin?

Thanks gang! Slowly trying to answer all of these questions before I get down to business on my tail.

Delphine

02-16-2013, 04:46 PM

I'm just curious...
1. Does anyone have any recommended brands of paint or pigment to use with Dragonskin. I'm guessing Createx is not a good one to use (that would be to easy!)?
2. Generally speaking, can you mix pigments together to make different colours (as you would with artist paints)? So could you buy a set of "standard" primary colour pigments then mix them together to create a myriad of other hues?
3. http://www.smooth-on.com/index.php?cPath=1255
Smooth On says that these can be used with silicones, does anyone know if they would be ok to use with DragonSkin?

Thanks gang! Slowly trying to answer all of these questions before I get down to business on my tail.

Hi, Taz.

Hm, I'd recommend Smooth-On brand. I bought their Silc Pig silicone pigments. (http://www.smooth-on.com/index.php?cPath=1190) You can mix two or more pigments together, like paint. You need only a little pigment if you are making 1 tail, though if you want different colours you'll probably need a few different colours which can get costly. I think those Florescent ones are fine for silicone too, if you want black-light glow.

I'm sure you could use a cheap brand of paint or powdered pigment, but I'm not sure how it would turn out. My personal experience is to stick with the brand you like (and/or know that works when trying something new) & I've had fine luck with Smooth-on this far. :)

maemermaid

02-16-2013, 05:45 PM

Delphine

02-17-2013, 08:34 PM

Can anyone tell me how to attach the pieces. I get the fluke/ monofin connection. What about the seam? Do you sew it? Glue it? If anyone else posted this already just let me know and I'll look again. Haha

Please, see below. I think Kanti also talks about "gluing" parts together in her full tutorial.

Hi maemermaid! Silicone is a type of rubber, & I wouldn't suggest sewing it. The one I'm using is called Dragon Skin silicone from Smooth-On & is very, very soft, made to be similar to human skin. It would probably come apart at the seams--literally. It is a two-part rubber that you can pigment & mix together, pour into a mold, let it cure & it will cast. There are some tails out there that are made of neoprene (a type of wetsuit material, I believe) and have silicone parts. I'm not sure how those work, as I've been researching & working on a full silicone tail. To attach different parts together, as far as I know, you have to "glue" them using more Dragon Skin, as silicone only sticks to itself. I suggest looking up Dr. SeaWeed's or Kanti's silicone tail tutorials for a more in-depth step-by-step of the process. Those are ones that I'm using in my own work.

http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?3569-Project-Delphine-A-Silicone-Tail/page2

maemermaid

02-19-2013, 01:05 AM

You're a dear!! Thanks.

Claire the french mermaid

03-09-2013, 06:36 PM

Hello and thank you for this great post! ;)
I want to make a shell shock mold and I just test it on a small part of my scales foam and it's a disaster! My scales go with the brush strokes because the shell shock is too thick.
though my scales were glued :(

Kanti

03-10-2013, 01:39 PM

Can you be more specific with what the problem is? Sorry not meaning to be rude.

But did you apply the shell shock to a tail you already made?? What were the scales made out of? Did you apply mold release?

As for being thick I'm not sure, perhaps you waited to long to apply it. Shell shock's quickest work time is 3 minutes so maybe it ended up beginning to cure before you got the chance to put it on. Generally Shell Shock is actually pretty runny, but not nearly as runny as regular liquid plastics/resins which is why it's ideal for molds.
It has a viscosity of 3,000 cPs which is a LOT runnier than, say, chocolate syrup which has a 10,000 cPs to give you some comparison. Most other liquid resins have 100 cPs which is VERY RUNNY, almost completely watery. So Shell Shock has a great viscosity for getting into details without it going all over the place.

My guess is that it started to cure before you could apply it properly, and perhaps you didn't put any mold release before you applied it.

Claire the french mermaid

03-10-2013, 07:49 PM

I applied the shell shock on my plate of scales made of foam, fortunately it was a test so few of them have been damaged !
I thing you're right, I waited too long before applying shell shock so it became very thick and difficult to apply on my delicate scales :(
Thank you for your answer anyway! :) sorry not to have given all the details but I do not speak English as well as I would :$
Now I just finished my fin mold and I think it's difficult to handle shell shock, it's quite expensive too : I spent more than 100e in shell shock and I barely had enough material to mold my fin. But I think in France this product is more expensive than in USA :-/

Kanti

03-10-2013, 07:53 PM

Oh well half of the problem is probably that you made scales from foam. Foam is very porous so the liquid plastic will get inside and stick too well.

Wow I'm surprised you speak english very well!
If the Shell Shock is too expensive you can go with regular fiberglass resin. You can find it in hardware stores for 30USD, not sure how much it is over there. Resin will work as a shell, but it will be a but thicker and more annoying to work with. But it WILL work.

Claire the french mermaid

03-10-2013, 08:12 PM

Thanks for your answer ! For my english : "google translate" is my friend :p

As i have use all my shell shock for my fin, i will use definitively an other material for molding my foam scales. Fiberglass work you said ? But it seems difficult to apply... I heard about silicone "mold max" for a mold but it's more expensive :-/

Thanks a lot for all your recommendations ! I have your channel on Youtube ;)

Claire the french mermaid

03-10-2013, 08:35 PM

Does fiberglass resine works for a mold for making silicone prints ? Indeed it's a very cheap solution !

Aino Revontuletar

03-10-2013, 11:03 PM

I was thinking of using styrofoam for my mold box and doing the glued down foam scales method. Is it likely that I would encounter this problem too when using liquid plastic?

Mermaid Lorelei

03-11-2013, 12:25 AM

It would seem that your main issue is in a lack of release agent. You have to have a release agent or the plastic will bond to the foam. I suggest Ease Release from Smooth-on.

Aino Revontuletar

03-11-2013, 12:47 AM

Great, thanks Lorelei!

Kanti

03-11-2013, 02:10 AM

Yes, Claire, you just use the resin part, though, not the actual fiberglass cloth.
The resin is almost the same thing as Shell Shock but it's a bit on the droopy, sticky, and annoying side of the spectrum, but yes it is very cheap and can make an alternative. Simply make sure you use mold release of some sort.

@Aino - not if you use a mold release. Smooth on sells a few types of mold release, theres aerosol kinds like Lorelei said, Ease Release as well as their Universal Mold Release. If you want to go cheap but take a bit more time you can use vaseline, petroleum jelly.

Claire the french mermaid

03-11-2013, 09:45 AM

Thanks for your advice :hail:. if I choice silicone for a mold, what kind of silicone do you recommend ?

Aino revontuletar : protect a lot your scales I think I hadn't put on my scales enough release agent :-/

Aino Revontuletar

03-11-2013, 09:48 AM

Ok thanks Claire will do :)

Kanti

03-11-2013, 12:08 PM

Claire: When you're making something out of a soft material, you want a hard mold. So when making silicone, you want your mold to be liquid plastic.
I made a mistake when writing this tutorial that's why I'm working on a new one!

Claire the french mermaid

03-11-2013, 12:38 PM

Okay !
For information I just talk with a professional and he advised me to use polyurethane elastomer for a mold because it's harder than silicone but softer than plastic and apparently easier to apply and unmold.

I'd like to use fiber glass resin but I don't understand how it works, I found many tutorials but peoples put fiberglass clothes in them :-/ = The apply release agent and then a couch of gel coat on the model, then they put fiberglass clothes and resin. I don't find a tutorial with only an apply of resin :-/

Kanti

03-11-2013, 12:49 PM

There's two parts to fiberglass: the actual cloth/fibers that give it strength and the resin that you use to apply it. You can use the resin as your first few coats to capture detail and then if you want some strength just use the cloth and apply it as normal.
The mertailor actually uses the fiberglass method for his tails. I, personally like liquid plastic, but that's just my opinion/choice.

If you talked with a professional and he knows what exactly you want to do and what materials you are using then sure! Go with what he said. I've just been told my smooth-on that if you're making something out of silicone you generally don't want to use silicone as your mold.

Claire the french mermaid

03-11-2013, 01:22 PM

Ok thanks I will think about that and I'll let you know the result :)

jazz2453

03-30-2013, 11:15 AM

Ok so I may sound stupid, but what exactly do you use to mold the foam scales? And what is the wooden box/ mold box?

Kanti

03-30-2013, 11:30 AM

Here check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQXO0fYIbYw
I explain in the video, it's a bit long but you'll learn a lot. It's also a lot easier to understand when I can explain and show you an example xD

The mold box is nothing more than a "barrier" you create when you're making the mold of the scales.
Since we're using Shellshock, a runny plastic as our mold, we can only brush on so much. Chances are, unless you work with VERY small amounts, you're going to get a lot of runoff, and when that happens the mold box gives you a "barrier", if that makes sense.
It also doubles as a floor but later in my video tutorial I'm going to explain that you can skip the mold box almost entirely.

inactive account

03-30-2013, 12:21 PM

Kanti I love your videos they are so helpful, can I just say, I hand sculpted scales and a fluke using the same type of clay you are using and then I used Shellshock. Even after smothering both sculptures in release agent it took months to demold the clay. I found the clay scales where not as much stuck to the Shellshock but on the fluke especially all of the fine details and little lines it was completely stuck. I had to scrape the fluke mold with a needle and other tools it was that bad. So just use release agent - and a lot of it on the fine detailed areas. For the surrounding are of the sculpture and the barrier skip release agent and just smother it in vaseline and it should come off quickly :)
ow and also the Shell shock is really good at finding its own way into details so there is no need to brush or anything like I just poured a thin amount all over it and kept repeating till it was all covered like this :10448
I don't know why i did not do one section at a time I think i was just panicking because it was getting thicker lol

jazz2453

03-30-2013, 12:26 PM

Thanks Kanti:) That's what I thought it was for but I wasn't quite sure. And as for the foam scales, do you have to use the raindrop or would a circle punch work fine too?

Kanti

03-30-2013, 12:35 PM

@Neotail - OHH! Awesome thanks for sharing that!
Also what did you use for your clay? Because one thing I LOVE about monsterclay (that Im going to make another video on soon hopefully!) is that you can just use a heat gun to get it out of the way. Whenever I use it I always just blast it for a minute and it melts out of the cracks.
If not I just grab a toothbrush and soap and just scrubscrubscrub xD

@Jazz - of course not! You can choose any shape you want! I liked the teardrop because I felt like it was a nice shape that allowed glueing to be easier, but most people seem to lean toward the circle or oval.
Feel free to get crazy though, you can use ANYTHING you want, you could even take leaf or shell shapes and use those, just imagine how theyd look overlapped!

maemermaid

03-30-2013, 02:31 PM

When you talk about the "leg mold" in the tutorial, is that an alternative to measuring yourself? Can you just measure work that way? Or is the leg mold used to give the fin form while painting? In which case, can I just stuff it? I/m fairly sure that I'm ready to get started, I just need to figure out what measuring technique to go through and what size I'll need to make my scale sheet. Oh. One more thing! Sorry for the questions. When using the single seam option, if you put it to the side, how do you make the other side form to your body? Thank you so much!

inactive account

03-30-2013, 06:19 PM

OMG Kanti I tried that and wrecked part of my fluke mold!!! I made my fluke mold thin probably 4mm thick and I used a hairdryer to melt the clay but it just made the clay smear across the mold and not come off and also the mold became soft and bent so I had to spend ages using a heat gun trying to correct the level of it and the ridges... lol my tail has gone through so much. The best thing is to use an electric toothbrush and dishwasher soap, my advice is if you use Shellshock you gotta keep the design smooth and simple, you can see in the picture I drew hundreds of fine little lines which ended up all being raised in the mold and then hugged the clay... :)

Delphine

04-01-2013, 02:47 PM

Alternative method I used: Sculpt/carve your scale sheet or fins into flat clay slabs as the negative, so when you pour the silicone in them, it creates the positive. :) If the clay is cold, use a hair-dryer as a lower-tech way of warming the clay so you can continue sculpting. The heatgun can actually melt the Plastalina modeling clay I've been using, but the hair-dryer (switching between high & low) worked well. Spraying a little mold release on the clay mold & easily pull out the scales/fins once they're properly cured. The cast pieces should peel out even if you forget the spray release when working with Plastalina.

Kanti

04-01-2013, 04:07 PM

Yea you can do that too Delphine!
It may be a bit more difficult in that sense to get all the clay in place, but maybe there's a way to make it easier?
In theory, you could take your silicone scale sheet, lay it on the floor and cover it with liquid plastic and then you have a more solid mold that you can keep since the clay version is probably going to be flimsy and impossible to re-use unless you keep it in the same place at all times xD

As for the concern Neotail, you can honestly try a more heat-resistant resin if you had problems with the Shellshock warping. There's a liquid resin called Task8 that smooth on sells that you can use that is very heat resistant. I guess it's a bit too late since you already went through the whole thing xD but in the future if you decide to do something a bit sturdier you can go for that!

inactive account

04-02-2013, 09:28 AM

Thanks Kanti i will do :). Delphine I think it will be very difficuilt to sculpt an invert scale sheet or fluke and make it accurate, if you're talking about only messy lines then i think that would be very possible but trying to create ridges would be hell because they have to be level, same with scales you would have to press a coin into a sheet of clay that has the same thickness all over and apply exactly the same pressure which sounds hard :s

Kanti

04-02-2013, 12:44 PM

Yea it seems very hard and meticulous to sculpt the scales in reverse o_O
You could do the coin thing or maybe get a tiny spoon of some sort and shovel out clay in even scoops? either way it does sound very hard! But I'm sure it's completely possible

Delphine

04-02-2013, 03:05 PM

Hey, guys. Lol, it WAS hard! Kanti, I'm super detail-oriented, so yes meticulous is a good way to put it. XD My sheet was on the floor of my studio while I worked on it, after I got the cast & was satisfied it was converted to my fluke. To be clear, my 4'x3' scale sheet was meant for one-time use only. If you desire to do more than 2 casts (you can get quite a few casts from the Plastalina clay, however they mold is still impermanent), I'd definitely suggest pouring the liquid plastic in, so you can continue making many sheets. Since I'm not looking to go commercial, & I only need 1 tail for my senior thesis project, if I ever want another one by my own hand, I'll definitely want a new & different look than the Delphine Tail. :) Or work with closely with a commercial tail-maker, lol!

Also, I used 2 different-sized clay tools, & simply pressed them into the clay. You can really use anything though, a small shell, a spoon-tip etc. Whatever best suits your merside. Where these in perfect straight lines? No. Why? Even as an artist, I can't draw a straight line. In cast sheet, I started with small scales at the ankles that transition to larger, almond-shaped scales at the waist, mimicking scaled-creatures. Scales follow the body lines, so they expand where they cover larger areas, & usually shrink in size & grow in quantity when they cover smaller areas. You can see this with fish or, my lizard, lol whom I was also studying for scale patterns. Check out my dragon's body from my gallery, small scales at around snout & eyes, larger on top of the head & around ears.. (http://iwstudios.deviantart.com/#/art/Dragon-Fortress-VI-305999133?hf=1)
10472

Overall, I'm pleased with the look, as it lends an organic feel, which you see in the cured cast sheet (now in "bodice" form) & the cast fluke. If you want straight lines you either need to gently mark it out with a ruler on the clay or try another route. Also, even though it takes hours to create a scale sheet with ANY method, you do go into a mini-trance as you get into the groove of it. I completed mine with many sessions of 1-2 hours. It probably takes similar time frame with even the foam-cut-out or glued-seed method. Anyway, good luck with your fluke, Neotail! I'd love to see photos when you complete it. :)

Kanti

04-02-2013, 03:14 PM

Delphine

04-02-2013, 07:57 PM

I agree Delphine! You did an amazing job on your scales, at first I had no idea you did the whole negative in clay so that is very impressive!
And yea I noticed how it was very small towards the bottom and got larger as well, I really liked that, it did give an amazingly organic feel to it and looked more natural than the copypasta a lot of people do. I hope to one day do some sculpted scales but for now Im already having an annoyance with the punch-out scales so perhaps later on xD
And baww! I LOVE bearded dragons! I have a couple myself! They're so cool! It's interesting to know that you actually studied him for the scale pattern that's always an awesome thing to do because it sets a nice reference.
When I was making my hooved shoes I literally watched videos of horses and goats all day so I think I may know what you mean xD

Aw, thank you. Yes, I hunkered over my mold pressing tools into clay to get the impressions. Hard, but doable. Yes, the large-to-small scales looked better than the test sheets I did, using uniform, man-made material. You can even do different sizes with the punch-outs, but yes it's more work.

YOU HAVE BEARDIES, KANTI!?! That makes me so happy to hear. I love them, had them for 17 years, now. My current is Bello, whom I'm most fond of. I wanna use him as my model for my dragon-girl that I'll do for my fantastic creatures (Delphine the Mermaid is just the first of the series). Yep, Bello served as my life-model for scale studies. He has the tiniest scales around his eyes & armpits, lol! What are your Beardie's names? Yes, life-studies etc. are the best!

Kanti

04-02-2013, 08:30 PM

Delphine

04-03-2013, 08:42 AM

I can imagine! It probably took forever but you can say it's well worth it! Your sheet looks amazing! I seriously can't wait to see your tail

Hehe and yea! I have a couple of opposite sexed ones which is unforunate -__- The one on the left is Meryl, she's about 8 years old now O_O, the one on the right is Karl, he's just about 2. Meryl I got from a breeder, hence why she is so pretty and has some more orange to her, Karl was given to me by someone who bought a dragon from a petstore and decided they didn't want him anymore. This picture was taken a while ago so now Karl is a bit bigger and fatter but Meryl is still cute and adorable as ever.

http://mernetwork.com/index/attachment.php?attachmentid=4377&d=1342589815

Hehe! Bello is a cute name, I assume it's pronounced similarly to "bellow" and rhymes with "chello?" xD not sure correct me if so
And wow! that sounds super badass! I did think about making a reptile-humanoid sort of thing later on but I always thought a bearded dragon might have been a bit tough? *shrug* I'm sure you could work something out! Sounds like an awesome idea~

LOL, me too! It's so close to being done, now. It's just attaching all the components & adding the glow.

Meryl is really freaking cute. She looks like my brothers' Chipotle. I'll have to show you a photo. They have similar faces, the small snout & eye-shape. (GAH--I LOVE when they do that look. I call it Confused Face.) And unfortunately, poor thing, Karl is also similar to my brother's Skip, but yours is nicer-looking. He's an adult now, by way too tiny. He needs to be fattened up. XD He's bright in colour, but not in the head--he tries to fight my Bello (yes, like Bellow. Aka. Bellerophon), who is twice his size & strength. Bello is also called Beastie for a reason. ^__^"

Well, a dragon-female-humanoid with studies from Beardies, anyway. I want wings, some scales, and a tail. Maybe horns? I dunno. It'll be complex.

Kanti

04-03-2013, 11:51 AM

MerEmma

04-03-2013, 11:56 AM

That dragon costume was at MegaCon right? I KNOW THE CONVENTION CENTER. THAT'S MEGACON. THE SHOWROOM FLOOR. RIGHT? ;\ The restrooms sign is the exact same one
yes

Kanti

04-03-2013, 12:07 PM

Yea it was! Last year though xD
I love Megacon! I heard you went this year! Unfortunately I didn't get to go D:

Delphine

04-03-2013, 04:20 PM

Thats going to be exciting! Btw I am very glad that you come out and share your process with everyone! It's nice we have a few people who know their way around silicone and actually show us the progress! Also you are totally teaching me a thing or two xD

OH that reminds me too! I remember in another thread when I was trying to answer your questions, when it comes to backing the tail in fabric, try using something called "power mesh". I used to scoff at the idea of using it because I thought I had to order it online, but I found some at my Joanns for $10.99 a yard which is $5 when I use a 50% coupon! Not to mention the Smooth-on guy I always talk to recommends it every time so I think it's worth a shot! It's more of a mesh than an actual fabric in the sense that it looks like a net with tiny holes. It has spandex properties but do NOT actually use spandex because power mesh is a much lower concentration of latex which allows you to be able to use it with silicone (plus power mesh is better, it has a 4way stretch when spandex often only has a 2way stretch). Test out a patch if you do find it, but it's awesome for reinforcing especially stressful areas like the ankles and stuff. Also you can add it very easily, just put it on your scale sheet and put a coat of DS over it.

Hehe sorry I just remembered that bit because I told you backing is probably not necessary in the other thread, but I think this stuff is worth a shot.

And YES I love Meryl she's my cutie. I always heard the snout shape sort of gave you a clue as to if it's a boy or a girl? I'm not sure, honestly but I have seen others with her face structure. She has a HUGE head which makes her sort of look cartoony xD
You should post pictures of the other ones! I think I like beardies a bit too much, theyre just so cute looking and when they tilt their head it's like awwwwwwww xD People just don't understand!

As for the dragon humanoid, maybe this will help you out!
http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/058/8/1/__dragon_costume_with_dovahkiin___by_kanti_kane-d4r8jv0.jpg
I did a costume for a dragon from Skyrim but the design is actually from a Zelda boss: http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090513010313/zelda/images/9/9f/Argorok.png
Anyway, this might be something you'd like to consider because it made laying the scales very easy! I basically took a zentai suit (or morphsuit) and attached the wings right to the arms! This costume is about a year old and I'm totally itching to remake it, but I want to hold out to make it silicone and to re-do the wings a bit. While the wings were pretty stable and stayed on and all that they did get in the way quite a bit as you can imagine xD
I want to say each wing weighed about 5-10 lbs each mainly because they had latex scales all over them and I put wooden dowels inside them to hold the structure. In the end I'd like to re-do the wings in as most light a manner as possible because I was asked to open my wings like 5000000 times and it got really tiring. On the plus side I did get a nice arm workout xD

Really, wow. I'd thought at the beginning of my project, as I read your tutorial here that you'd already made one. But I learned during my researching that only a few on here have/are making silicone tails now. I don't blame those who don't, it's hard & time-consuming work. I'm excited, too. Swim-testing is coming, so it'll be sink or swim very soon!!!

YOU ARE AMAZING! That dragon costume is.. I don't have words for how much that rocks! That totally should inspire me, weird cuz I was definitely thinking red scales. Lol!

Bello (he's 5 now) also has the hugest head ever, so I like to tease him about how much he has to rest his big head on EVERYTHING. I laugh cuz it looks like gets tired holding it up all day, & I come home to find him using the log or the sculpture as a pillow quite often. Hilarious & adorable. There are pictures on my tumblr of him doing this. YES! I LOVE the Beardie expressions. So many don't like lizards, but Beardie's are so expressive & entertaining. Bello does the funniest things. I need to capture some of them on video to share the hilarity that comes with life with a Beardie. (Like the infamous "Beardie Dance"! Do yours do this? I've even seen other lizards do it at pet stores, where they go on their hindlegs & "dance" against the glass, usually this seems to be playful take-me-out-I-wanna-explore behavior from Bellerophon.) The head-cock to the side makes me smile every time. They are so curious. Non-Beardie-Lovers never understand.

Please, don't use the power mesh. It was a good idea in theory, but I did a test & it failed. The spandex, funny enough, has MORE 2-way stretch than the mesh. I am going to try & sell the rest of my mesh to another art student, I'm sure they can use it for something. I've not done reinforcement at the ankles, but I'd avoid the power mesh.

Kanti

04-03-2013, 04:30 PM

Delphine

04-03-2013, 05:01 PM

Hehe I did a bunch of research and I do other molding projects so I guess I have some background but no I haven't made one yet! And yea it is very daunting a task so many people I think just get intimidated so they don't want to try!

Hehe thanks! It was a fun costume though definitely needds to be remade xD

Haha yea I think sometimes they just have really big heads xD You have a tumblr for him o: I'd like to see! I love bearded dragons but I like watching videos of them the most because then you get to see how cute they act. And I agree they just seem to have a lot more personality than many other reptiles. I like snakes and stuff but its nice to have a bearded dragon because they seem a lot more aware of things and respond to you more often.
Hehe mine don't do the "glass dance" mainly because I don't keep them in a tank anymore, but then again Meryl often goes by our glass-sliding door and does it there so actually yea she does xD

And awww I thought the power mesh sounded like a good idea! The guys at smooth-on always told me YOU SHOULD TRY IT and etc etc. Any reason why it didn't particularly work? I actually picked some up and I thought it seemed nice o:

So, do you have your dragons be free-range? Are they trained? My apt isn't "beardie-proof", so I wouldn't trust him to walk around without keeping an eye on him. Haha, definitely more personality than many other reptile species. LOVE them. My art + Bello shots: iridescent-wings-studio.tumblr.com

Cool. Well, thanks for showing me. It gives me ideas of how I may wanna do the Dragon. But I should probably save her for last in the series, as Dragons are my favorite--sorry, Merfolk. I still love mers very much.

Power mesh, or at least the mesh I got wasn't stretchy enough in all directions. To be part of the inside scale-sheet, it has to stretch at least in 2 directions equally. My test did not, so I scrapped that idea & bought other fabric.

Kanti

04-03-2013, 05:24 PM

Delphine

04-03-2013, 05:44 PM

They're not really trained, but we have a heat lamp set up in an area and they know where that is so they know to go there when they want heat xD
I guess in that sense they're surprising because they have a capacity to learn things! We usually keep them separate, though, due to. Well him being a boy and her being a girl xD they just walk around, it was hard at first because they like to hide but once you learn the hide spots it's alright. They don't tamper with much.

And no problem! I figured it may be something you'd be able to grab inspiration from! And yea haha dragons are really badass! I loved that costume! I just want to remake it D:

Ahh I see. I think mine is alright? I may or may not use it. I think I'd like to, though, just to reinforce it. Espeecially since that's all the smooth on guy talks about!

Hm, I would only do this Bello if had a hardwood or laminate flooring. He used to go back in his cage of his own accord when we used the side-slide doors. He'd jump out, lick everything, check things out, turn around & climb back in the cage to bask when he got cold. I miss that. That's awesome that your dragons are more free. But.. How do you separate them, then?

Yeah, Dragons are badass. Hope you get to remake it, then.

Well, all I can offer is what I was told. "Do a test. Do multiple tests. See what works best." And wish you good luck!

MerEmma

04-03-2013, 07:43 PM

Yea it was! Last year though xD
I love Megacon! I heard you went this year! Unfortunately I didn't get to go D:

Yep! I went all three days and took about 300 pictures a day. I have them all uploaded if you'd like to see them sometime. Too bad next year they're moving it to the other building--as soon as I figured my way around the darn place! xD

Annnd in case you can't tell, I was Harry Solomon from 3rd Rock from the Sun.
And I just realized this is kind of off topic. oops. ;\
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-W73XRyZMOss/UUZkRKZWJZI/AAAAAAAAH38/-oXUCzzgTpA/s1600/DSCN1820.JPG

Claire the french mermaid

04-06-2013, 12:00 PM

Hi !

Just a little message to say I made my polyurethane's mold and i just made my silicone's scales in there and... it's a great material for a mold ! :)
Polyurethane is flexible enough for easy storage and a release agent is no need to cast silicone !
I will post pictures soon i'm so glad my mermaid tail is progressing well :D

Jinx

04-07-2013, 01:50 AM

what videos did you learn fromm?

@iblondie - well since silicone can only be molded, you'll have a lot of time to spot errors in the tail before you ever
have the chance to waste any dragonskin. Oil-based clay is pretty forgiving since you can re-use it over and over
and things like mold making and alginate casting are very easy to pick up on offline. I made my first mold after watching
a couple videos. I just did what they told me to do and everything turned out perfect!
I think it's just intimidating to take that first step, but it's a lot easier than you think. If I get around to making this anytime
soon, I'm certainly going to be making videos of how I do everything so you guys can see first hand.

@fallen - no problem :') and that's a good idea, especially since latex is a lot cheaper and readily available.
Just remember that you can't share latex molds with silicone so you'll have to remake all your molds when you
decide to switch over to Dragonskin.

Kanti

04-07-2013, 02:14 AM

Umm I don't remember exactly as it was about a year ago, I've probably watched hundreds of videos by now x__x
But you can get an idea of how to make all sorts of molds! Just check around youtube, like "how to make a mold" basically xD

I would recommend anything made by smooth-on, tap plastics, brick in the yard. I found a few personal pages that were awesome as well but I don't remember as it was quite a while ago.
If you're interested in making a tail though, have a few very specific and very explained videos that answer almost any question about making tails you may have already.

I have the link to my youtube via my blog in my signature, you can check that out, or you can just look around youtube, you'll find some nice stuff.

Claire the french mermaid

04-09-2013, 11:10 AM

Here a picture of my polyurethane's mold for giving you an idea of what it looks like :
10613

and here my silicone's scales :)
10614

Kanti

04-09-2013, 12:51 PM

Very pretty!
What a nice clean mold. Did you get it laser cut?

inactive account

04-09-2013, 12:57 PM

Omg.. those scales... WOW! I see what you mean about storage that mold must save soooo much space :)

Claire the french mermaid

04-09-2013, 01:32 PM

No i didn't use laser cut, my mold is obtained by molding foam scales, like in your tutorial :). But for molding foam scales you need to stick very well the foam scales and vaporize on them plasticizer spray before applying polyurethane.
Thanks Neotail I live in a studio of 20m2 in Paris, so save space is one of my priority ^^

Kanti

04-09-2013, 01:36 PM

WOW! You did a spectacular job!
They look perfect!

Claire the french mermaid

04-09-2013, 01:45 PM

Thank you very much :D
I spent a lot of time on it and it's not perfect ( bubbles into silicone...) but I think some irregularities can give a kind of natural look :p

MermaidHyli

04-09-2013, 03:12 PM

WOW! that is awesome...polyurethane huh? I thought about using that to make my scale sheet mold but I hadn't seen any one do it. Was there a certain kind you used or just the hardware store kind? You did an amazing job and I totally understand the small space I live in a very tiny studio apartment haha. My scale board takes over most of the kitchen floor ...

Claire the french mermaid

04-09-2013, 03:52 PM

The best to make silicone's scales is a kind of polyurethane called "PMC". I have used PMC 40A shore.
The good points with polyurethane : it's easy to unmold and store away and you not need mold release to poured silicone ! the bad points : it's expensive (I think it's more expensive in France than in USA), and you need to plasticize your scale board, put a lot of universal mold release on them and be sure they adhere well to their board because the polyurethane gets everywhere when it is poured.
Good luck for your project :)

Kanti

04-09-2013, 10:06 PM

Cool! THanks for the info Claire!
You can technically use anything you want as the silicone mold, just make sure it's harder than the silicone itself and that it contains no latex or sulfur. Aside from that it's pretty much up to the person individually as to what they want.

Sea Pearl

06-03-2013, 06:31 PM

Thank you so much Kanti for taking the time to put all that information together!

merline

06-16-2013, 03:15 PM

What is the thickness of a typical full silicone suit with no neoprene backing?

Jinx

06-16-2013, 03:52 PM

Good question I've been wondering that myself. Anyone know???

What is the thickness of a typical full silicone suit with no neoprene backing?

Elle

06-29-2013, 02:36 AM

I met Kym Sainsbury today!!!!
For anyone who's interested she worked on both h2o and aquamarine (as well as the Lord of the Rings Trilogy and others). She's a makeup and special effects artist and she works at my local Barnes (www.barnes.com.au, for all you aussie mers) and we had a lovely talk about tails and all the rest of it!
It was ridiculously exciting for me! It was great to talk to her about my own venture to make my own tail!
I'm so excited to start my own tail (once I have some money to back me up) and can't wait til I finish making my scale box! (I'm still cutting out my craft foam)
I just wanted to share, because I'm in such a fabulous mood from it all. It was fantastic to talk to someone with so much experience. and she can't wait to hear more from me :)

MerEmma

09-27-2013, 05:37 PM

I never saw your post but WOW, meeting someone who worked on H2O and aquamarine tails? Congrats! Sounds so great :D