An interesting thought when it comes to LGBT

[Kanti]

Well I was just browsing around and I found an interesting comment on a news article
commenting on a Chick-fil-A story.

The comment:
"Now, do you want the Bible to determine our marriage law or do you want divorce to remain legal,
including for abused women or people who just can't stand each other? Seems not one Christian
really wants the Bible anywhere near our marriage laws or we'd see ballot initiatives to ban divorce
except in the two cases Jesus (silent on homosexuality) allowed for. But there is not even a feeble
effort from Christians to codify Jesus's words on divorce. The Biblical argument is a total lie. You all
should really stop pretending you want the Bible to determine our marriage laws."

I thought this was an interesting comment that I had never thought of before. Jesus
himself talks about divorce as shameful and dangerous all the time. Marriage is so sacred
a sacrament, that it is meant to last forever, and if you defy that sacrament, it's a sin.
Well, according to the bible, even if you divorce someone, the church (and God) still see you
as married to that person, since you made a PROMISE to the church the day you got married
that you would be together with them "since death do you part". So essentially, god sees
EVERY OTHER MARRIAGE you ever get as ADULTERY. So every person you know who's gotten
a divorce is actually defined (by the church) as a sinner and an adulterer, WELL only if they've
ever re-married. Because the real "adultery" comes in when they get re-married or do anything
sexy while they're "single", because God still sees you as partners with your first husband/wife.
This is a serious sin, especially since the church regards marriage as sacred, right?

Well that comment hits the nail right on the head. WHY is being gay even an ISSUE when we
have DIVORCE being legal?

Some statistics I found via wikipedia, ask.com, and other random websites:
Mainly focusing on America, sorry xD

According to enrichment journal on the divorce rate in America:
The divorce rate in America for first marriage is 41%
The divorce rate in America for second marriage is 60%
The divorce rate in America for third marriage is 73%

According to a Williams Institute survey conducted in April 2011,
approximately 3.5% of American adults identify themselves as lesbian,
gay or bisexual, while 0.3% are transgender—approximately 11.7 million
Americans.


So why in the world would christians even FOCUS on LGBT when they have
a much more widespread, common, and seriously grave matter of DIVORCE
at hand that seems to get ignored all the time?

Thoughts, comments?
Maybe this is a great counter-argument for people who are trying to demean
friends, employees, or other LGBT people you know.

[Thalassa]

If we're going to go religious on this debate, I hope you will be respectful of all beliefs. I personally do not agree with LGBT pride, "LGBT rights" or anything like that. This is not up for debate. I do not demean anyone, I respect others' right to practice what they believe unless their practice infringes on my own beliefs. I usually only comment on it when they ask what I think, or when I feel very strongly that I need to state my opinion (infrequently).

But I feel the need to let you know: Not all Christian denominations are focusing as solely on LGBT issues as you seem to intimate. I can only speak for my own religion, as I haven't heard others' sermons. My own church believes that Satan is attacking the family on all fronts from things as little as having them too busy to spend time together to things as large an issue as redefining marriage as between same-gender or as being temporary. They address pornography tearing families apart, infidelity destroying trust in relationships, and many other such issues. I believe that divorce is a very big issue, as well. I've had a great number of children who are going through divorce in my classes and I just HATE what it does to them.

But just because one issue is there doesn't mean I ignore the other. Divorce is not coming up for a vote. It's not as big in the media (even when stars get divorce everybody just takes it pretty in stride now, vs someone "coming out of the closet"), people don't protest for the 'rights' of divorced people. There are people speaking up against the rate of divorce in this country, but they don't get as sensationalized as when people speak out on LGBT subjects.

EDIT: I forgot to say that this is a good question, though, because I think divorce is too highly accepted and overlooked today. Thank you for bringing it up!

[Kanti]

Well, I was mainly targeting Christians that are against LGBT rights that go hand in hand with the
Chick-fil-A nonsense. People like that. I have a TON of Christian/religious friends that are all for
LGBT rights, so I don't think it's fair to associate ALL Christians as being anti-homosexual.

I just thought in this instance that it seems religion is being abused in the sense that people are picking
and choosing things from the bible that THEY want to use to justify their hatred for others.

But yea, I would think that they would bring up divorce. It's a shame that so many people GET divorced
inthe first place. It seems that people don't put as much emphasis on marriage anymore in the sense that
all those famous people have 40 million marriages their whole lives and they tend to break them off quickly.
I just think it's HIGHLY unfair that LGBT people are being attacked for being gay and wanting to marry when
we have straight people who don't take marriage seriously AT ALL. Especially with the percentages and stuff.
Being gay doesn't seem to even have a decent effect on society whereas divorces are prevalend and ignored.

I guess it's a touchy subject or it could be perceived as one, but I don't mean to slam religion in any way, I guess
my goal was to show the radicals who are trying to abuse religion for their own gain, then they turn around and label
it as "traditional values".

[Thalassa]

Nah, you didn't seem like you were slamming, Kanti. I just always put that in there out of habit because my views are usually not tolerated well (outside this forum, mernetwork has been REMARKABLE in that regard) and discussion once I post tends to get off-topic because people jump in to question my "anti-LGBT" views (golly, I wish I could come up with a better way to put that, because it makes me sound like I'm against the people themselves rather than the behavior). XP

I honestly wish divorce were at least as talked about as LGBT issues. I think it's horrible that it's glossed over, especially when there are kids involved. Funnily enough, I stopped watching Glee not because of the whole gay issue, but because from what I saw the teacher guy didn't try to work it out with his wife before leaving her (she told a horrendous lie, and he felt rightly cheated, but he didn't even try to talk to her after that). I do believe that there are a few situations that call for divorce, but that "He let his toothbrush out too many times" isn't one of them.

However, I feel that labeling them as "traditional values" isn't all that bad. They have to be called something, and the same way that some call LGBT views the "modern" or "enlightened" or "liberal" views some people call the opposite "traditional" or "nuclear." What would you rather have them call them? "Correct?" That would certainly inflame the LGBT community! "Biblical?" Obviously not..."Rigid?" That wouldn't go over with them very well...

[Joy&RaptorsUnrestrained!]

I agree with you both, Kanti and Thalassa, in that this is a good question.

On the subject of Chick-Fil-A, I love their food, and I would usually visit them when I'd go to the mall for my weekly comic book shopping trip. However, finding out about some of the "charities" that Chick-fil-A donated the money I paid them really creeped me out, and I while I might occasionally go there, they've lost me as a regular customer. Mr. Cathy's remarks are just more of a bad feeling... not because he was particularly vicious to LGBT people or anything, or even to divorcees, but because that arrogance of his, that he can define himself as following a "biblical" way of life that excludes me and, more importantly, that he gains some sense of superiority for what he and his people don't do (divorce, alternate sexual acts, etc) as opposed to what they might actually do (feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, cure the sick, educate, provide opportunities, improve the economy, provide counseling, etc) that is positive and helpful. That seems to speak of him as being afflicted with pride (the sin, rather than the virtue) and possibly envy as well because his self image is defined by what he doesn't do. Just because someone isn't a murderer doesn't make them a saint, and just because Mr. Cathy isn't an adulterer doesn't make him morally superior, either. It also makes him pretty foolish for agreeing to be interviewed and letting this become an issue, for choosing those answers and not simply saying something noncommittal. He chose to come into the spotlight, he chose to make this an issue, and that's apparently going to cost him Boston and possibly San Francisco, at least in the short term, not to mention the deal with Jim Henson Studios.

We have already redefined marriage several times from the writing of both the codified laws of the ancient Jewish people in what Christians have referred to as "The Old Testament" until recently, and in Jesus' own time. Marriage is no longer an exchange of goods or a way or making alliances, women's rights have evolved beautifully, and a belief in love between spouses has come to the forefront of our culture. My parents and several of their oldest friends are all still married (I'll have to ask, but I think my parents' 50th anniversary is coming up in a few years), much to the surprise of some of my other friends. I have cousins and friends from college who are happily married with kids, and while they've had some tough times, they love each other and their children and work to support their families. THEIR families. That is what marriage is about: not just husbands and wives, but in-laws, close family friends, and any children... and God (at least in my belief system... others might disagree).

I am gay. I am Catholic. I am Italian-American. I have a B.A. in English. I am a gamer nerd and a comic book fan. I am 6'2" tall. Which one of those do you think people have most prejudices about? We all make judgments about each other, the world, our beliefs and our lives on a daily basis, and sometimes this is a good thing. If a person seems threatening, getting around them and trusting your judgement might save your life. Now, granted, there are plenty of eerie, threatening-looking people out there who are really wonderful people with amazing talents and compelling ideas. The good news is that Matthew 7:16 tells us that "Ye shall know them by their fruits" and that a biker dude might be a wonderful grandfather, a great chef, a teacher of self-defense classes, or a veteran. That Andrew De Leon guy on America's Got Talent looks creepy (and sounds annoyingly angst-y), but his voice (and his choice of songs) is out of this world (even if he messed up in Vegas). And there are plenty of people who meet all of our expectations about what a good, wholesome, nice person is... but who are corrupting and vile underneath.

Gay culture makes an emphasis on individuality, courage, responsibility for your own actions (positive or negative) and expression as well as romance and personal freedom. The very concept of "coming out" has been valuable and empowering for countless straight people as well... including religions that have suffered bad press, such as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The ability to say "I am different, this is a side of me you didn't know, I will be who I am, and are you worthy of my trust in sharing this with you?" has such incredible potential for everyone's lives. Of course, there's also the flip side of "Are you sure? What does that mean, in detail? I thought you were like me, but now you're saying you're not! Isn't that dangerous and difficult and lonely and wrong? How will you have a family? How could you lie to me? Etc" but nothing ventured, nothing gained... and many of those questions and feelings can be worked through with time and effort on both sides.

I am unconvinced that divorce is the real problem, though... I feel it is more of a symptom, and treating a symptom doesn't help much in the long run. The problem is that there are a ton of pressures to meet and marry someone with surprising swiftness, and that just because you like someone, find them attractive, or they pay some sort of attention to you, they are the one. There are tons of people getting married who don't have a clue about 1. what they're doing, 2. the other person, and 3. what the rest of their lives is going to involve. Get people to actually think extensively (with their heads, not just their hearts... or any other part of their physiology) before wedding (or cohabiting, or whatever) and the large number of divorces would drop. People have ideas about what marriage is and what love is and what roles they're supposed to fill, and these ideas can often be wrong or misguided (such as the idea that once you marry you're going to live happily ever after, or that the passion of initial attraction is "love").

From a theoretical standpoint, yes, marrying someone is an agreement between you and God to (Insert vows here), and breaching that agreement is in defiance of God and the Church whom you asked to recognize that union. On the other hand, Jesus died for our sins and it is that Grace that saves us... I am not sure calling all subsequent relationships adultery is accurate, particularly if the now ex-husband and ex-wife continue to put the needs of any of their children first and continue to honor and respect one another. Catholicism also has the sacrament of reconciliation, and I'm unconvinced that sincere regret and reparation for one's sins is utterly worthless or that any sin is a permanent stain on someone's soul, given God's ultimate power of forgiveness.

There is also distinctions between opposing Gay Marriage and Opposing Divorce. The current predominantly anti-Gay Rights laws that are prevalent are restrictions on someone ("two men can't get married") while divorce supporting laws are enabling ("a married man and woman who no longer wish to be married are able to divorce each other"). Also, wealthy, powerful, important, popular and political people get divorced, often with impunity (cough Britney Spears cough)... and divorce has been a topic of discussion for millennia. The GLBT culture and individuals are comparatively new and vulnerable. Attacking divorce is not going to happen... or rather, there is no chance of success while we push individuals together from high school Proms to needing to be married to gain better benefits and pay and opportunities and other similar efforts that suggest that being single, a virgin, or between boyfriends/girlfriends is uncomfortable, unpleasant, or less desired than being married to someone (or in some other committed relationship). You can hurt individuals for divorcing, but you can't impede the high divorce rate that way, no matter how much social pressure you put on it. One can hurt gay men, lesbians, bi people, and transgendered people because centuries of wrong, misguided, inaccurate notions have been reinforced by social forces, which reinforced them in religious, family, and political fields as well... and because we're one's children, friends, siblings, teachers, parents, lovers, coworkers, cousins, nieces, nephews, aunts, uncles and students and the possibility that one might be wrong about God and Faith is a terrifying idea in any situation. The fact remains that Biblical discussions of sexuality were meant for small tribes countless centuries ago where the average lifespan was age 20, where medicine was a fragmented philosophy rather than a science, where women were property, where war was a constant, where beliefs were determined by your location and heritage and not personal choice, and where God (at least by my beliefs) sent His only son to change all that with two commandments: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind" and "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" and his own personal sacrifice for us. We do not live in that world any more, and we have made new definitions. We make our choices, are punished for our sins... but our sins are for God to decide, not us. All we can do is try to live as lovingly, honorably, and virtuously as we can, and to make sure that our sins do not harm others overmuch and that we repair the damage to the best of our ability while we have the chance to do so in this life.

Also, some people are better off divorcing or remarrying. Maybe that is because they didn't take the time to truly get to know all aspects of their first spouse before marrying them, but cases of spousal and child abuse demand a way out of a bad situation, not accusations about sin.

God made us in his image and likeness, and we are all beautiful, but we are also all capable of sin. We are all also capable of virtue, wonder, and redemption, though, and we do not know the mind of God... we can only struggle to take inspiration and comfort from the writings of the Bible (if we follow one of the religions that reveres it) and any other scriptures and philosophies that we follow, and have Faith in God's Grace and Forgiveness; Courage to try and correct our flaws, failings and mistakes; and Hope that we are doing the right thing. God made us this way, "Allah loves wondrous variety," and it is up to us to figure out what to do with that divine gift... and hope we are not squandering it with a wrong person.

Sorry for getting all spiritual and a little off-topic in some places, though.

Thalassa, as far as word choice goes, I thought I'd bounce some ideas off each of yours...

"traditional values" - I think traditional isn't problematic, it's the question of whether they count as "values" to everyone affected by them.

I admit I've not actually heard of LGBT views as being opposed to the "nuclear" family... though that could be because I avoid politics. Most of the LGBT people I know are members of nuclear families and are still involved with them greatly... and plenty of us hope to have their own nuclear families in the future (whether by adoption, surrogates, artificial insemination, etc).

I think that while there might be a suggestion that LGBT-friendly views are enlightened, one rarely hears that word actually used today outside of more philosophical fields (Buddhism or Confucianism, for instance) than social/political ones. Enlightenment has a stigma of superiority as well.

"Modern" is similarly flawed, since the fact that this debate is a conflict means that the opposition to LGBT-friendly views are also modern.

I've liked the term "Heteronormative" to describe anti-GLBT views, but I understand that it has fluctuated in popularity over recent years (and as an opposite, Homonormative is sometimes seen as not representing anyone other than gay and lesbian people, and excluding bi and transgender and other people). Looking on wikipedia, I also dug up the terms "Complementarianism" and "Gender Binary" as potential terms to oppose LGBT-Friendly views, though I'm uncertain if either really defines your stances.

I admit (and I assure you, Thalassa, I mean no offense to you or your stance, simply friendly opposition to it and hope that minds might change more towards my point of view) that I would like to call anti-LGBT views "history."

[Prince Calypso]

so if your in a relationship with someone and marry them and something happens,
they cheat on you, or beat you, or abuse you or force you to do things that demean and degrade you
you should just suffer for it because you made the promise to stay with them.

[Mermaid Narina]

this topic is one that can cause huge debates, and im sure there are several arguements going on somewhere in the world at this very moment about it! I dont mean any offence to anyone, and i know several gay and bi people- i have nothing against them at all. I usually stay out of politics, but i just wanted to add that i totally agree with Kanti- divorce is a huge issue. People just dont take marriage seriously anymore!
Take an example: Jennifer Lopez and Cris Judd. Their marriage lasted 8 months. 8 MONTHS!
Divorce breaks apart families, and i feel that the only reason for being divorced is if one of the partners is abusive (as Prince Calypso said)
My parents divorced when i was.... around 11? And it impacted on my life for years and years afterwards. I had problems with my step mum, who married my dad and was suddenly stuck with 3 children to look after. I know this would have been hard for her, and we never have been able to really get along with her. There is so much stress with shared care too, and my parents got in huge fights about whos house the kids would stay at mostly, which only hurt me and my brothers more.
The bible says (somewhere, ill have to check later) that in the old testament times they accepted that you could divorce someone ONLY if they cheated on you or if they died. If they cheated on you, the 'adulter/ess' could not remarry again, but the other partner could remarry.
I dont know well enough to quote, but you get the idea, and its an interesting thing to think about.
Each type of Christian has their own morals and sets of values, and should go with what they believe. And as a said before, abuse is NEVER acceptable, i think if a christian woman/man is being abused, and feels guilty about wanting to be divorced, they shouldn't. Im sure God would forgive this.

[Thalassa]

Joy&Raptors: I definitely think you're on to something, there, with divorce being a symptom. I agree that so many people are getting married too quickly, without time to really get to know the other person. I do believe in "like at first sight," but I believe love has to grow. Not to say there won't be any surprises after marriage, because it's impossible to talk about and prepare for EVERY circumstance (and people change), but IMHO it's better to date for a while. As for the "disease," I would add (and sorry if you already mentioned this, I read through your post as best I could...it was long ;-) ) that so many people seem to have flawed expectations of what marriage is. Many seem to think that "I'll be married, and then everything will be perfect," they have this unrealistic expectations about what their spouse or life will be like when they are married. So many people look at it from a selfish point of view. I definitely believe everyone has a right to be loved and treated well, but as my mom and dad are fond of saying, marriage is a series of compromises. When one member of a partnership is focuses solely on themselves and their needs and is unwilling to compromise or occasionally put their partner's needs before their own it causes problems. However, I'm not a marriage counsellor and try hard not to judge beyond being very sad that a divorce is happening...because I don't know the full circumstance, and I'd hate to judge only to find out that someone was being abused or something and had to get out. A coworker of mine (a sweet, sweet woman) was divorced twice because the men she married were skillful deceivers. The first one cheated on her from the beginning and divorced her when she refused to take that in stride once she found out. The second one stole all of her money, damaged her credit, and as far as we know has fled the country. She hardly ever shares the circumstances of her divorces, so someone simply knowing that she was divorced twice could judge her very wrongly.

Looking at the terms you provided me (thank you so much, BTW), it looks like I most closely hold to "Heteronormative." It's a long word to type, but I like it better than including "anti" in the term. If I'm reading correctly, it was coined by a gay person in writing about "queer theory." This is why, although I don't have a problem with using it, I think many heteronormatives would have trouble with the term...it is a label that was drummed up to define us (I believe that the LGBT community prefers the labels they've come up with for themselves better than those derived from the heteronormative community...correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't have a whole bunch of info on that). I definitely understand you wish that the viewpoint become history rather than current. In many ways I feel the same way about LGBT viewpoints (simply because I sometimes tire of hearing about it), but I know that they're here to stay given the times we live in. I definitely agree that the percentage of chik-fil-a dollars going to support religious ministry gives me pause, and I would like to see more giving to the poor, etc. Question: would it be better if "traditional values" were replaced with "traditional..." gah, I can't even think of a replacement. Let's see...if someone were to say "I believe in traditional Christian values" to mean lack of divorce, abstinence until marriage, heteronormative views, etc...what would be a better term? I suppose they could list all of those things individually... If I may step on a personal soapbox for a minute, I honestly get tired the politically correct minefield (not just associated with this topic). I sometimes get so tired of going through conversations thinking, "Is this okay to say now? Will they get offended? What's the 'right' term for this?" In this era where every conversation could potentially be recorded and blown out of proportion, it's very stressful.

[Alveric]

Abuse and potential abuse of government power is what twists my tail. Agree or disagree, the head of Chick-fil-a should have the right to donate his money as he wishes without threats from govenment bodies such as Boston or San Francisco or where ever. It should be between him, his stockholders and his customers, period.

As for marriage; why do we need to buy a certificate from the state to get married? The state should have nothing to do with it. So long as our parish priest is not forced to perform a marriage we don't believe in, it shouldn't matter.

I worry that people are so used to using the power of government against their opposition that the eventual winner will turn that power on the loser.

[Kanti]

Thanks for all the responses everyone. But yea, I just don't see how gay marriage can
be so important when divorce is overlooked all the time. When we have celebrities (like
Natasha said) who are only married for less than a year yet their marriages are more
protected and "sacred" than a marriage between two people of the same gender who
actually LOVE each other.
It just sort of reminds me of how people rallied against interracial marriages. I think it's
just spreading hate for the sake of spreading hate. I don't see why anyone would care
who marries who. People are so concerned about government controlling businesses and
such that they want to get government OUT but they turn around and let the government
make laws on who you can marry!? About whether or not you can get an abortion? About
whether or not you should be able to own a gun?
I just think it's ridiculous. The churches shouldn't have to marry anyone if it goes against
their religion, but for pete's sake the STATE should recognize it!
And the state is required to marry people because they write the laws and help transfer the
possessions over to the spouse if one person dies, etc.

[Joy&RaptorsUnrestrained!]

Natasha, you make a good point. Both of my aunts on my dad's side of the family are divorced. The one man was abusive and cruel (and a corrupt police officer who used his connections to ban my aunt from their house without taking anything), the other has been through something like three wives now and is starting another relationship, has ruinous relationships with his kids by each of the ex-wives, and basically felt that when my cousin was born, he wasn't getting the same level of attention from my aunt... despite the fact that he moved them all the way to a cabin in remote corner of Vermont with no nearby neighbors (and little in the way of paved roads) and away from family and friends. Meanwhile, on my mom's side of the family, I have a cousin who married a nice-seeming young lady with whom he had a lot in common (both were civil war re-enactors at Gettysburg, for instance). Shortly afterwards they had a daughter, and the wife started to act differently. Now they're separated, and while my cousin is the main caretaker (he has his daughter 4 days out of the week) she deliberately moved farther away (and not to her family or their town), started living with another woman (still uncertain if there's anything sexual there... she claims this woman is her "soulmate" but that term is ambiguous) who has a young son who bullies the daughter, and refuses to sign divorce papers because she claims they "were never married to begin with, it's just a piece of paper, I never loved you and never wanted a child" in her words. The daughter always returns to her father's house sick or with other signs of neglect or abuse, and the mother and this friend of hers smoke around the girl. The whole scene is heartbreaking and infuriating, and it has prompted me to be exceedingly cautious when it comes to dating anyone.

Thalassa, I am in full agreement with you... it is certainly possible to have a connection with someone instantly, but that's not love. Or at least, if it is love (depending on your definition of love), it isn't the sort of love with which one can build a life. Also, as you pointed out, there are all sorts of unforeseen circumstances that can throw a wrench in everything, and that people do change (sometimes drastically, like my cousin's wife). And we really, really have to work on reaffirming self-worth on a whole lot of people. My grandfather told the first of my aunts (mentioned above) on the day of her wedding that she didn't have to go through with this, and she could turn back, but she bought into the creep's suggestion that no one else would ever love her, and it took years to repair the damage.

I also completely agree with your suggestion that people have many false images about marriage and love and what it should be like (I actually DID mention it, but I spent hours writing that and I can see that it got lost in the mess of other points I was trying to convey all at once). My parents' saying (in line with yours) is that people think that marriage is about being 50/50... when you and your spouse actually have to give 100/100.

As far as "heteronormative" goes, it IS a long word to type, and there are some concerns about whether even using it makes one too scholarly to actually get the point across. However, I've noticed that there is a prevalent movement within the LGBT community to "reclaim" words used about them (Gay, Queer, Fairy, Mahu, etc) and use them with positive connotations instead of their earlier negative usage. The only time they make new words (or when psychologists make words for them) is when they need to convey a concept that didn't exist previously (such as "heteronormative"), and given their use of terms other's have coined for them, it makes using terms like heteronormative on more strictly traditional gender-roled people a form of poetic justice.

I also agree with you that I'm tired of hearing about it for the same reasons... it would be nice to move past this. Being politically correct is also tiresome, which is why I think individual stories might be better at reaching people than broad statements about a wide variety of people with different interests and aspects... categorizing people might be convenient, but when it goes to the point of becoming a chore in and of itself as opposed to a way of helping deal with the situation, it has gone way too far.

Alveric, I'm not sure Boston or San Francisco are threatening him (and I know that Chick-Fil-A doesn't currently reach much of New England), so much as saying that if he's going to move into their towns, he has to play by their rules. As for your concerns about marriage, you're right, a committed couple is going to be committed to each other with or without a government announcement of that fact. However, marriage still is an economic concept, and for monetary and taxation purposes, not to mention health ones (including visitation and decision rights), adoption and family law, marriage grants a legal protection that other couples don't have. And the fact that people of alternate sexualities are banned from that protection is what makes it ultimately unfair. You're right that using government and political power is a risky proposition and a two-edged sword, though.

[Merman_Shawn]

The tides are changing. My boyfriend and I could run out and get married today if we wanted to(THANK YOU NEW YORK!).
I always like to say, "You don't have to agree with it, but just think: Your heterosexual marriage doesn't affect my homosexual marriage in the least. So how does my homosexual marriage affect your heterosexual marriage?". The answer is, it doesn't. If we can't be fair and equitable to one another, then we are no better than a pair of toddlers fighting over a toy in the sandbox.
To the people who keep voting to take my god-given rights away: Stop imposing your religious beliefs on everyone. It's not YOUR God's place to tell me how to live my life.

[Mermaid Dottie]

I like to point this out to my fellow christians, especially here in my own state, where gay marriage is illegal;
Gays and lesbians are all having sex out of wedlock. That means they committing adultery in most christian views. But the state won't legalize gay and lesbian couples getting married. So the choice that these people are given is this: be with the person you love the most while being condemned by the rest of society, or remain celibate and lonely your whole life.
Great options, folks. I don't blame them or judge them for choosing to be with the people they love.
My brother was gay. There is no doubt in my mind that he was born that way. And now he's dead. The victim of hate.
After all the good he was a part of, all the money he raised for charities, all the programs he helped to start at college, all the people he helped on a day-to-day basis, someone still hated him. Because he was gay.

And yet, The abusive, psychotic, lying, cheating, hateful heterosexual male that is coming to my mind right now is more likely to get to heaven? yeah okay. He's treating his marriage like a pair of worn out dirty socks, and it's only a year-and-a-half old. Won't even attempt counseling, is just going to leave his wife and newborn baby because he met some girl who's younger, and hasn't had any kids. His wife even went to great lengths to appease him by changing her personal behaviour towards him.

Won't even try to work his marriage out and remember why he fell for her in the first place.

[New York Mermaid]

Truth be told Im christian and I believe a person who is homosexual has every right at happiness, marriage, children etc, just like everyone else. I just feel that there's so much going on in this world, but people dont realize, we should not judge others by what sexual orientation they are or who they choose to be with, that is not our job, it is our job to treat everyone as an equally (the whole treat others as you would like to be treated). All my friends gay or straight are treated equally and I consider all my friends family . I know my mom is very religious, but even she believes that everyone (gay or straight) should be treated equally. Even she knows its not her place to judge and she taught me that as well. My sister in law on my husband's side is a lesbian and she has 2 wonderful children with her partner, to me she is my sister in law. I see her relationship no different than me and my husband, her choice is her own and we accept her for who she is.

Times are changing and there will always be naysayers, but those are the ones that dont look at the big picture of how this world is changing, right now there are so many kids out there in foster care/adoption agencies who would give anything to have a home, and out there are gay couples who would love to have a child/children of their own.. yet some people believe having 2 mommies or 2 daddies, the kid wont grow up normal. Yet there are straight couples who have children and their kids dont grow up normal whether from abuse or other issues.. like i said a messed up world we have, people need to stop judging others and need to realize, we are all equal no matter who they are or who they choose to be with.

[Mermaid Dottie]

AGREED. I agree with your entire post, Lanai.

[Alveric]

Marriage certificates from the state were not required til after the Civil War when many states (not just Southern) put them in place as a means to prevent interracial marriage. So long as the state controls marriage, it will be subject to political whim.

[Kanti]

I think the state should control marriage insofar as just to keep records. I don't think they should
dictate or have any say in who should marry who. The most important law I think should be applied to
marriage is that BOTH parties should agree to it, it should not be a forced transaction, which I'm sure
that's already a rule. And of course, it should help prevent people from marrying too young.
And it may be subject to political whim, but isn't EVERYTHING? I mean, we have a law that's clear as
day "Separation of Church and State" yet look at all these political doofs saying marriage should be
between a man and a woman AS QUOTED BY THE BIBLE. Seriously, that should be thrown out the
window right away. Who are you to dictate what marriage means to THE ENTIRE NATION? Especially
based of a religion that the entire nation doesn't even believe in!
The problem with politics goes far beyond the marriage issue. People want to control and conform laws
so that everyone can appeal to their own form of "normal". If the government was fair and just thought
of what's a personal lifestyle choice vs. what actually affects other people, they wouldn't be so corrupt.
The problem is that when someone gets into power, they always want to subject everyone to THEIR
beliefs instead of consider what's fair for everyone.

I mean, a great example is polygamy. That's another marriage thing that is pretty much illegal in most
of the US. But why? Why can't people who WANT to be in a polygamous marriage be allowed to do that?
If all the parties agree to it, I don't see why not. I may not like polygamy, but isn't it someone's RIGHT
to do what they believe? If everyone agrees to it, then who cares, it's not violating anyone's rights.
Just because people believe differently than society, they're automatically labeled as "weird" or
"abnormal". Well what's wrong with being different if you're not hurting anyone?

[Thalassa]

While we're on the subject of LGBT issues and divorce, I have a question (sorry to threadjackish but I feel like this goes along with the topic):

One of my friends' dad just left their family because he (decided? found out? whatever) that he's gay. He basically told his wife, "I don't love you anymore." He left her and her kids with tons of medical bills because one of his daughters had had spinal meningitis. How do I help my friend deal with this? She feels like her whole life has been a lie, her dad refuses to have any contact with his family. If her dad was born this way she feels it means he never really loved her. If he wasn't it means he's decided to leave his family...I'm not sure how to help her. She feels so lost and abandoned, she loves her dad but feels he no longer loves her and possibly never did. She doesn't know who to trust, either, because he always said he loved her mother and the children more than anything in the world, that he couldn't imagine another life than he was living... It breaks my heart to see what she and her family are going through, I don't know how to help or if I should even try.

[Kanti]

Well Thalassa, I think you have to be sensitive to both parties. The dad does seem more at fault, but
maybe he was strained into a relationship to some level. I would defend him by saying, maybe he did
think about it several times but was disgusted that he might be gay so he was trying to prove himself
wrong. Maybe he thought if he had a traditional family with a wife and kids, he'd be happy and he wouldn't
feel these homosexual tendancies anymore. Then perhaps, one day it just got too real and he just
wondered why he was going on living like this. Maybe he's felt like he's been living a lie for the past however
many years, before the marriage, before the kids.. Maybe he had parents who told him being gay was a choice
so he felt guilty and thought he could just reason himself out? There are lots of reasons why this could have
happened. Considering the WORST, which I hope is not true, he may just be saying that as an easy way to get
out of his marriage? Maybe he's tired of his life for whatever reason and wants a good excuse to move on, and
what better than he's not attracted to his wife and can't be? Again, I hope that's not the reason, but there's
always possibilities.

I guess let's just say he's actually a nice guy, maybe he doesn't want to contact his family because he feels
it might interfere with him discovering who he really is? Maybe he feels he's been lying to his family this whole
time and he feels weird about it? There could be millions of reasons, but the matter at hand is that he did lie
to his family for who knows how long. I think that's another problem. Maybe he was so stressed to live the "ideal"
lifestyle, he was ashamed to ever tell his wife anything. But that's still not right. He should have told her he felt
he may have homosexual tendancies. Then maybe they would have never had kids, maybe they would have tried
to be more honest about their feelings, maybe even been able to get some professional counseling.

Unfortunately, yea, you still have his kids and wife, who are now both shattered because THEY have to live with
it. They weren't told the truth or even hinted on the matter so they don't know what to believe. Whether he had
any homosexual feelings at all or whether this is just a hoax.
I feel like they should give the dad a chance. Maybe they should tell him they just want to talk, they want to know
what's been going on in his life, and that even if he doesn't want to stay married, they want to be in his life and
they need his help. In the end, he owes them at least that, but this is reality, and no one can make you do anything.

[Thalassa]

I am sensitive to what might be going on for him, my concern is to help my friend with the dark place she is in right now. They've tried asking him to talk and such...The thing is he wants absolutely no contact with them. It's as if he's now disgusted with them or is trying to deny the life he had "before." It's destroying them that he doesn't even want to see them, that he really doesn't seem to love them anymore even to the point of wanting to see them at all. He doesn't want phone calls, letters, emails...he's told them he doesn't want any contact when they've tried. How do I help my friend with this?

EDIT: I guess I could try talking about how he must have felt, but I'm not sure telling her that he felt pressured into a relationship with them would help much...

[Kanti]

Maybe he feels like he's going to be coralled back into his old lifestyle and he can't have that.
If you are to talk to him again, I would be more interested in how he feels. Maybe he's annoyed
that people are so concerned with his family and no one is asking him how he feels about all
this. It's crummy that he left, but maybe he has a good reason. Maybe if he talks about it with
someone at least he can have help on what to do.

But I would just tell your friend that sometimes that happens. She has to understand that her dad
may be going through so much more than she can imagine right now. Maybe his whole life has
been a lie as well. I know it wasn't fair for him to leave, but at least she got a dad. At least he started
this family lovingly and left without being abusive. So many more people don't get so lucky. I mean,
if it wasn't for him, your friend wouldn't even be there, right? He did a lot for his kids, I'm sure, maybe
now he just needs time to himself. He may come back and explain himself, he may not.
I guess I would just try to make her be as open minded as possible and that while it's a huge loss,
they all need to ban together and move forward. If they all believe their dad was a good person, he's
probably still a good person. He's probably a lot more torn up than they are on the matter and just
doesn't know what to tell them. Just let her know shes probably not the only one suffering.

Tell her to put herself in his shoes. What if she stayed married to someone she wasn't sure she liked?
What if she stayed put because she thought she would be happy, she thought it would work itself out,
but then she just felt wrong. She loved who she was with in the sense that she did care about them and
want them to be happy, but she was not ATTRACTED to them. You love your mom, right? But you don't
want to marry her, do you?
Her dad probably just needs space. He needs to recollect himself. It's not the best method, but life is
too short. He may be at the point where he wants change but he knows he's already past the point of
hurting anyone with telling them the truth so he just wants to cut ties and speed up the healing process.

[Thalassa]

Honestly, he hasn't talked to anyone enough for anyone to know how he feels beyond "I'm leaving. Don't contact me." According to my friend, even when she's emailed him and been like, "All I want to do is understand and love you, I'm okay if you feel you can't love me back right now, etc." he's only replied with, "Please don't contact me anymore." He even went so far as to tell her brother "pretend I'm dead." I'm worried that trying to force her to be more open-minded will make her feel betrayed by me, as well.

I don't feel like we can judge whether he's more torn up or less by them. I guess I could tell her that she wasn't being stupid, maybe he really did love her and her family at one time...it's just really hard because we don't know. He won't talk to anyone about it, so all we have is theories ("Well, he might've..." "Well, he might feel...") and in the meantime there are the opposite (less positive) might've and might feels as well.

Since they've tried to contact him and be understanding and he's not interested, I'm to the point where I don't care about his feelings at this point. I wouldn't inspire his daughter to hate him, but I want to drive home to her that she is NOT STUPID, she is still loved, and that she can have hope to find a love in the future that won't betray her as he did their family.

Those who have been victims of divorce: How did those around you help you, or how could they have helped you? Should they try, or would it be better for me to keep my big nose out of it?

[Joy&RaptorsUnrestrained!]

@Thalassa:

I am terribly sorry that your friend is suffering like this. It has to hurt you tremendously that you feel you can't do much to console her or help her heal just yet... and I can't even begin to imagine what she is going through.

However, a point that desperately needs to be made is that no matter where one falls on the Kinsey Scale or the Conservative/Liberal spectrum, anyone can be good, and ANYONE can be stupid selfish jerk.

Unfortunately, your friend's dad (and my aunts' ex-husbands, and my cousin's wife) fall into the latter category.

I know at least two gay men who got married for whatever reasons, and who have come out to their wives and families yet made arrangements to continue living with and supporting their wives and children. They made a commitment, they took the responsibility, and until something comes along that requires them to change (i.e. children moving out and on with their lives after growing up, or their wives finding someone who will really love them), they are determined to be there for their families. It's not an ideal situation by any means, but their families and their commitment comes first. Period. End of story. I also know plenty of other gay men who were married or had kids who, though separated from their wives, continue to support them and work with them to ensure that their children are happy, healthy and loved, and who devote a great deal of time to their families despite living separately.

Your friend's father couldn't do that. There are words for people like him: coward, spineless, cruel, selfish, lazy and more.

I do believe that people are born with their sexuality. Maybe it isn't noticeable or as big a part of their lives as it is for others, but it's the same way that some people have preferences for their lovers' height, fitness, style, ethnicity, hair/eye color, career, sense of humor, etc. Some people have preferences for their lovers' gender... others don't. However, EVERYONE is required to act responsibly with anything involving sex, romance, love, marriage, and children. I couldn't marry someone just to prove I wasn't gay and make everyone else happy, but some people do... and it usually ends miserably. The ones who salvage something from the situation are the ones who act with responsibility, take the hits that they open themselves up to, protect their loved ones and be honest and open to communication. From the sounds of it, your friend's dad hasn't done any of those things.

I've heard that the realization that one is gay does come to some people later in life, and I have great sympathy for them, particularly if they've already built relationships and families at that point. However, I judge those people by their fruits as well, to badly quote the Bible. Anyone who hurts their daughter like that is a monster. Can he change? Maybe. Might he have valid reasons for avoiding all contact with his kids? Possibly... but that gets into the realm of weird plot lines, and life, while occasionally stranger than fiction, also bows to Occam's Razor: all things being equal, the simplest hypothesis with the least assumptions is generally the correct one. Therefore, while his abrupt change in attitude suggests that he could possibly be trying to make it easier for her not to miss him (in some messed up logic) by making her hate him for his cruelty instead, the most likely possibility according to Occam's Razor is that he's an idiotic bastard who hurt your friend, and therefore deserves the massive karmic retribution that is likely coming his way.

If he was born gay it doesn't mean he never loved her... though I'd be cautious about attributing a virtue like love to a slug like him... it just means that he has betrayed her, ignored her attempts to get through to him and understand, and has chosen to hang himself with the rope he's been given. The question about how this might've been started with the youngest daughter's diagnosis with spinal meningitis is also suspicious. I've got another cousin who divorced his wife when his youngest son was born with a condition that meant the boy needs constant supervision from a nurse and can't eat normally and likely won't live to his teenaged years, but (though he is a creep for all that) he still makes time for the two older boys... he's just apparently too fragile to handle the concept of his youngest son dying young, so he causes all this hurt and flees to lick his wounds and try to convince himself it's not his problem. I think he's an cowardly imbecile as well, though I can appreciate his efforts to be there for the other kids.

People are not simple, even when they should be. Your friend's father is a cruel, selfish jerk caught up in his own little world... not because of his sexuality or because or his coming out, but because he is a cruel, selfish jerk caught up in his own little world.

Talking to your friend about how he must've felt is probably a bad idea, both because it makes your friend dwell on his feelings instead of dealing with her feelings and moving on and becoming stronger than him; and because you don't know his feelings and can't know them unless he breaks his wall of silence and actually bothers to communicate with her.

Your efforts to reaffirm your friend's self worth, assure her that she's not stupid (and in fact, might be brilliant and courageous for even trying to get through and understand him in the face of his utter disregard), she is loved and is worthy of love, and that she can find someone she can trust to love her and not betray her. I'd suggest taking it a bit at a time, if you can though, focusing on moments of love and happiness, sharing the things that bring wonder to your life with her, and encouraging her to find her own bright moments. It does get better, after all. Let me know if I can offer any advice or resources for you to help.

[Thalassa]

Thank you so much, Joy&Raptor! I'm trying to focus as much as I can on her and her feelings because as you said focusing on him leads to a can of worms and hurt. I'm trying to just be there for her and keep reaffirming her self-worth and all of those things. I wish I could do more, but I guess sometimes you can't force people to feel better, it just takes time.

It's good to know that I can tell her that it gets better.

[Kanti]

Yea, Joy does have a ver valid point. He should be there for his family. I don't know, I assume I just
feel bad because I can't imagine trying to live my life one way for so long and thinking I'd be happy
then turning around and finding out you're just not meant for it.
But Joy is still right, that doesn't excuse you from your family.
I guess if you're aiming to make her feel better, then yea, moving on is probably the best idea.

[Alveric]

I agree with J&RU. If you destroy your family to go find yourself, you won't like what you find when you do.

I would rather live a lie than hurt my kids.

[Joy&RaptorsUnrestrained!]

It's not even a choice about not being able to live your life, or having to keep lying. Yeah, if a married man comes out, it does shatter the illusion of his "happy" marriage (but illusions are just that, illusory, and sometimes they need to be shattered in order for new dreams to flower into something true), and it will lead to some very tense situations (particularly with his wife and in-laws... and siblings and parents as well) but it is possible to remain best friends with a wife (or husband in the case of wives who discover that they are more comfortable in a lesbian relationship) and above all, REMAIN A MAJOR PART OF THE KIDS' LIFE.

One of the reason I'm actually glad gay rights and gay culture and gay icons and gay characters have been coming forward and making the news and becoming an big deal is that they provide an example of gay people living openly. That makes more people understand and expect them, which makes more people used to them, which makes more people feel comfortable coming out and feeling able to live their lives honestly and openly. That means fewer people get married because they feel they "have to" despite their preferences, and fewer people end up in marriages with families and then deciding that they can't keep up the act anymore and causing all this heartache.