Has anyone tried making a fully molded silicone fluke?

[Theobromine]

I was just wondering...instead of incorporating a bought or pre-made monofin, has anyone thought of just molding a fluke completely out of silicone? I know silicone comes in vast array of different shore hardnesses, but I was looking at the Smooth-On website last night and I didn't see anything that looked like it would be hard enough. But if I could find something that would be hard enough to make a stiff yet flexible fluke that would allow for fast swimming like a normal monofin would, I will seriously consider trying this. I really want to make my own molded silicone tail once I can afford it, and I keep turning all these different ideas over in my head. It seems to me that I could devise a way of making my heels less visible if I just molded the entire thing out of silicone....

What do you guys think? Is this something anyone here has attempted?

[Mermaid Dottie]

I thought of this one, but I think an entirely silicone fluke would be too floppy, and not provide enough propulsion. It would also be really heavy, and take a really long time to make, as far as drying and curing go.

[Lyna]

I've seen fully mold made silicone flukes many times so....with no monofin inside. But when I asked about them, they said that they weren't swimable, or even if they were, it was extrememly difficult. Smoe movie prop tails are silicone like this, but they have the extra extended part ppast the feet....or on h2o for instance, the girls each have 2 tails...one for swimming, and one with the fully silicone tail for the dry scenes or bathtub shots when they want to fluke to look more floppy and natural.

[Theobromine]

Hm. Well, I was thinking of using one of the silicones that cures a lot harder and less floppy, obviously, so that it would have similar propulsion to a plastic or fiberglass monofin...though you guys may be right about the weight. However, I was thinking that if the silicone were strong and rigid enough, it wouldn't have to be made any thicker than your normal monofin/silicone sandwich fluke. I'd definitely call the company and ask about their products before attempting it though, and probably get a sample of silicone to play around with too.

[Kanti]

Yea, the main issue is propulsion. It'd be like swimming with a towel instead of a monofin, it just adds no
power to your kick.
Most of the silicones you'd be able to use for a mermaid tail (dragonskin) don't sell hard enough to be
anywhere near the strength to propel you through the water. Even "soft" monofins are made of very hard
rubbers, they usually call them "soft" because they're more flexible. But think about it, the monofin has
to stand up to your bodyweight, if not it won't be able to propel you anywhere. So even the softer monofins
that bend and wave around are still WAY stronger than any silicone you could buy.
If your tail is going to be used more for photoshoots, pool swimming, or dry events, I think a tail without a
monofin wouldn't be too bad, but if you plan on using it for recreational purposes, swimming in springs, the
ocean, or lakes, I would recommend sticking a monofin in there.

[Theobromine]

Yeah, I realize that any of the Dragonskin silicones would be far too soft. Obviously I don't want to be swimming with a towel...but I was looking at the chart of shore hardnesses of various silicones that you posted in the silicone fluke tutorial and it looks like they can be found in hardnesses equivalent of a hard hat. Which is why I would call the company first and ask if they have any silicones with shore hardness ratings in or near that range. I'd also have to ask them if those silicones would be able to be bonded to the dragonskin, which I would use for the scales/body of the tail.

Anyway...I SWEAR I have heard or read somewhere that Mike Van Daal uses custom-built flukes rather than a monofin. Does anyone know about that?

[Kanti]

Well see, that's where it's sort of at a disadvantage.
A lot of the platinum cure silicones, which are the Dragonskin ones that can be used
for skin contact, do not come any harder than 40, which is not nearly as hard as it
would need to be to propel you very far, not to mention, all the things that ARE 40 or
higher are usually mold rubbers, which can't stretch or take as much abuse as the
dragonskin silicones OR a monofin.
Tin cure silicones also come in a range that goes to 60 (again, it's a mold rubber) and
those can't be combined with platinum cure as they interfere with the curing process,
AND they can't make skin contact.

Mike Van Daal probably means that he makes his own monofins rather than he inserts
ones that are store bought. He can make them from fiberglass, rubber, etc. but he probably
still inserts them inbetween the silicones just as many other people do.

I don't mean to sound like a downer, I'm just trying to save some heartache.
Using a monofin is really the best and easiest way to go, and making a halved mold of
your fluke is a LOT easier than making the entire molded fluke. In the end, it makes
mirroring the pattern SO much easier.

[Theobromine]

Hmmm. That's the main thing I was concerned/curious about; the fact that the harder silicones may not be as durable as dragonskin. That would be my main worry. Oh well. My other idea would be to possibly make my own monofin-type blade out of lexan or something, then incorporate that into the fluke so that instead of having to specifically build foot pockets and THEN insert it into the tail, that the inside of the tail itself would form the pockets. Then the fluke would go on from there...and I could have the "footpockets" angled so that they don't create such a bump where the heels are. But I don't know if I'm explaining that very well.

[Kanti]

No I definitely get what you're saying.
I would call Smooth-on's customer hotline and ask them to get you to a tech representative.
They're all very helpful and can easily answer any questions you have probably a lot better
than I can xD
I just think in the sense of monofins, you need something very strong. A lexan monofin would
probably work great, just avoid acrylic for cracking.

[Spindrift]

I have one! From latexmans :D
But you can't swim with it. There's nothing to hold your feet in place. It's a great learning tool though. I love it.

[Winged Mermaid]

Mike Van Daal doesn't use monofins at all- just a silicone fluke with a pocket for your feet to go- and his silicone tails are very swimmable. Same for the PAX Mermaid tails. All silicone, no monofin at all, and it swims great.

If I had to guess for an answer, I'd say that making the fluke two molds and casting the inside out of harder silicone, then casting the rest of the fluke around it would be the way to go. I'd be like having a foil or shooter monofin inside the tail, but just made out of harder silicone. Since they're both silicone it'd fuse together into one piece. Cast thick around the heel/ankle area to get the heel covering you're looking for. Just my input.

[Theobromine]

Thanks for your input, everyone :D Kanti, I went to two different hardware stores today looking for Lexan but neither had the right size >:( I did get a feel for what the sheets were like, though.

And Winged Mermaid, that's exactly what I was thinking of doing. I guess I'd just have to see if I could find an appropriate type of silicone.

[merboy78xy]

I go back and forth about this too... I would be interested in doing the same. I know that the H20 Tails have an inner structure to them that provides some stiffness:
5039

But I also look at the original splash tail... I'm pretty sure the tail didn't have an inner mono-fin... maybe the whole fluke was made of a firmer material but it still had a lot of movement and bend to it.
I was wondering about mikes... does anyone own one of the MVD tails that could divulge whether there is an internal monofin, or if it's all one cast piece of silicone? Winged, you had an oppinion on his... have you seen this for yourself?

[Arella]

Maybe a different material would work?

[Winged Mermaid]

I was wondering about mikes... does anyone own one of the MVD tails that could divulge whether there is an internal monofin, or if it's all one cast piece of silicone? Winged, you had an oppinion on his... have you seen this for yourself?

I saw Nerine's latex MVD tail in person, and I've seen multiple posts from people who own MVD silicone tails- including AlohaMermaid (Doreene Virtue) and BlueMermaid (Alasea) who have owned multiple MVD tails. Also the people who bought tails used- Ide (purple silicone tail) and Mermaid Sirena (blue silicone tail), Brandi (originally Melissa's latex MVD tail). I've also talked to Mermaid Sora who had a MVD latex tail (she had to sell it becuase she developed a latex allergy from wearing it), They've posted about the flukes, foot pockets, ect. It appears that if you ask for a tail that can propel you better in ocean currents mike puts a monofin into the tail with an actual foot pocket, but it's both feet in one pocket instead of two pockets (one for each foot). You can find a few reviews of his tails here (http://mernetwork.com/index/forumdisplay.php?20-FlipTails-%28Mike-Van-Daal%29). Also discussion on the classified section thread when they were being sold. Here (http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?457-MVD-Silicone-tails-for-sale) is a good one. Also BlueMermaid talks about her fluke was made differently, and all made with soft silicone. This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Xe2aMkUtlWQ) is how a tail made with soft silicone looks and swims. You can see it doesn't have much propulsion, but looks pretty.

You can always ask some of the users on here. Sirena Seenixe (http://mernetwork.com/index/member.php?334-Sirena-Seenixe), Ide (http://mernetwork.com/index/member.php?321-ide), or Mermaid Sirena (http://mernetwork.com/index/member.php?40-Mermaid-Sirena), or BlueMermaid (http://mernetwork.com/index/member.php?438-BlueMermaid)! They own the tails, so they would know better than me :) I believe all of them are on FB too.

[Winged Mermaid]

Also I can't seem to find the picture of it, but the H20 tails have a foot pocket inside the middle of the body of the tail (it looked like one big silicone box where the feet go), and on the bottom of that is a pole that's attached via a joint that moves, then the other end is attached to the fluke. I believe the center of the fluke is made from fiberglass from what I recall (the part of the fluke that is orange and jagged), then the silicone was cast around that. So the feet move up and down, the feet moves the pole, and the pole moves the fluke.

[Theobromine]

All of this is very interesting! Thanks for the input, everyone! Once I actually have the funds to start a project, I will think really hard about everything I've learned here.

[merboy78xy]

Theobromine, let me know if you come to any conclusions... I will do likewise, as I have started (and a continuing) to run experiments :)

[Theobromine]

Oh, I will! I'm champing at the bit to start making my own realistic tail. However, I don't think I'll be able to start it anytime really soon. I just got offered a new job that I have to move across the country for, and I'll need to get settled in and, you know, make sure I'm doing a really good job. But at least I will have a source of income finally!! So hopefully I will be able to save up for it. Bad news is, I also just found my dream wedding dress and also need to save up for that :-/ but...mermaid tail is definitely more urgent :P Dress can wait a year or so.

[SilverSiren]

I go back and forth about this too... I would be interested in doing the same. I know that the H20 Tails have an inner structure to them that provides some stiffness:
5039

But I also look at the original splash tail... I'm pretty sure the tail didn't have an inner mono-fin... maybe the whole fluke was made of a firmer material but it still had a lot of movement and bend to it.


Also, from what I have read about the making of the film, this tail was literally painful for her to wear. They superglued her into it everyday! :eek:

[MermaidRain]

I haven't made a silicone fluke but I have been doing research for about four years on tail making. There are several methods to make this type of fluke. You can use only silicone creating thicker stiffer rib like parts then a more flexible soft webbing between. It can be complicated to cast and does not provide as much propulsion as a competitor monofin but looks amazing. You can also cast a plastic frame that is similar to a real fish's anatomical fin structure then cover it in silicone. This also looks great but again it is a more complicated process.

[Theobromine]

I forgot about this thread! Thanks for the input MermaidRain, those thoughts are really similar to mine. I still haven't worked on something like this yet, but I probably will in the future. Right now I'm working on a different type of fluke. But I have big plans!