Is this possible?

[LittleTreasure]

Hey everyone. I've been having a crazy tail idea lately...hypothetical of course. Has anybody else wondered if it's possible to make a tail with a vertical fin, instead of horizontal like all the other tail fins out there? Like a shark's fin, for instance? Or the underwater creatures in the Harry Potter series, maybe? It would have a really wild feel, I bet.

I sketched up the idea on my ipad last night since I couldn't sleep (sorry for the horrific pictures, as I drew them with my fingers):
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Possible problems:
- Bulk. Unless you had one leg laying on top of the other which could potentially be very uncomfortable without padding, and it would still need padding to make the fin look smooth.
- Monofin... you couldn't have a conventional monofin. You'd need something built past or right at your feet that was still stable and easy to control.
- Locomotion. We'd need a whole new kind of movement. Like a shake-your-hips-side-to-side kind of movement, imitating fish and sharks.
- Restricted movement. This way of mermaiding might pose more risks during swimming. It wouldn't be easy at all to swim at first...in fact it'd probably be best to be wearing arm floaties as you get
started... :p
Also the knees wouldn't be required to bend as much, and the fin couldn't possibly touch the pool floor lest it break or bend too much. No flips in this fin. Legs might get stiff.

^ I'm guessing those are the reasons I've never seen anyone else mention this idea.

On the bright side it could look really really cool! I think it'd suit those merfolk that feel they have a wilder, predatory side. Or that want to look more fishlike.

Any thoughts?

[Mermaid Azira]

I think thats a great idea! i hope someone tries it....

[Mermaid Saphira]

this would be very interesting to try, however I am worried it would be hard on one to swim in that way. I do believe I saw a monofin that enables you to swim vertically bfore, however am not sure what I di wit the picture :/

[Mermaid Annariea]

i think it would be too hard to swim this way, so it probably wouldnt be too great for the recreational mer.
but i bet itd be cool for photoshoots!!

[Mermaid Lorelei]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ld1w2iBR6Fg

Vertical Monofin.

[Mermaid Saphira]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ld1w2iBR6Fg

Vertical Monofin.


This is the video I saw! ThanQ :)

[Toxotes]

It seems to me the paddle is necessary to swim with that vertical Monofin.
The Monofin itself only gives some kind of counter-force to the force which will otherwise move your legs horizontally.
But nevertheless, it's really cool. :D

[Ayla of Duluth]

Cool concept, might be too hard on the knees. But that paddle he uses to propel himself instead of the fin could easily be disguised as a hunting tool, part of the costume. At first I thought he was carrying a harpoon. O,,o

[Seraphina Suds]

I was actually just trying to figure this out myself last weekend! I tried to figure out a way to swim (sans fins) that would work with a vertical fin. It was mostly a lot of bellydance hip drops and lifts while laying in the water. Unsurprisingly, I got nowhere.

[Winged Mermaid]

This had been talked about several times back on the days of MerYuku, but the idea always got tossed. Because we're really just not meant to move like that. Even if you had amazing hip control and muscles and a fin for it, I don't think the force you could exude with said muscles would get you enough propulsion. I think you'd have to stick with the paddle if you want it to work for actual swimming. I mean I'd love it if someone came along and proved me wrong, but I personally don't see it happening. Otherwise.. I'd look cool for a shoot!

[LittleTreasure]

Maybe I'm just stupid but I didn't see any vertical monofin in that video.... am I missing something? O,o It just looks like that guy is swimming really badly with a really floppy monofin.

Edit: My computer isn't liking Youtube right now... the page will load for freaking ever, and it says the video is 2:59, but when it's loaded the time changes to 30 seconds. So in short I haven't been able to see the vertical fin yet. :( Dangit Youtube!/my computer! Anybody have the same issue?

Re-edit: Computer decided it didn't like me telling on it and showed the video. -_-; The vertical fin is pretty awesome.

[Spindrift]

I am not sure if I will be able to articulate what I'm thinking correctly, but it is possible that with an extended fin (like the H2O tails), it might work with some tricky puppetry. Basically, you'll still swim horizontally (undulating your body as usual), but the vertical fin can go to one side to the other, depending on where your feet are. For example, while your feet go down, the fin can move to the left, and when your feet rise back up, the fin can go to the right. I don't know how that will actually look in practice, but you could get a bit of propulsion if you're using a modified FINIS shooter or foil fin, maybe (or hide them as side fins). The tail itself might just be a bit wider than most to accommodate everything.

[Spindrift]

Maybe I'm just stupid but I didn't see any vertical monofin in that video.... am I missing something? O,o It just looks like that guy is swimming really badly with a really floppy monofin.

Wait until the 50 second mark

[Ashe]

i am in love with the idea, but i agree with Ayla, it would seem to hurt after quite a bit. But as always, i'd be willing to try! (and that monofin at the beginning of the video looked HORRIBLE, am i right? lawl )

[spottedcatfish]

I like the idea but I'm in agreement with Winged Mermaid (Iona), in that our bodies are not designed to move in that direction. Which brings me to another point, and question. How many marine mammals, i.e. whales, porpoise, dolphin ect. swim like that, in that vertical motion versus an up and down one? None. They are all designed to move their flukes or flippers in a up and down motion, or a flipper motion, but not side to side like a fish.

[Joy&RaptorsUnrestrained!]

Huh... I really like the vertical monofin and paddle... they look awesome.

I had another idea, however. What if you used a really long tail (maybe half again as long as your body or legs) with some sort of padding, ending in a framework of a vertical caudal fin that doesn't actually provide any propulsion, just looks cool, while your feet would be in flippers, covered with fabric or whatever to look like pelvic and ventral fins? Mechanics and physics of water movement and flow are admittedly not my strong suit, but I was wondering if, with the stiffened vertical framework of the caudal fin and some sort of filling or padding in the part of the tail that lacked legs, would the regular up and down movement of the flippers cause a rush of water in your wake that might move the caudal fin back and forth like a fish? Or is that physically impossible? Would extending the length of the legless part of the tail improve that kind of motion (i.e. make it look more realistic) without generating so much force from your kick, or would it be better to use a shorter tail to get the full brunt of the water stream? Either way, I thought it wouldn't require you to try wiggling your body back and forth but to swim naturally while still giving the appearance of a fish-tail... or some other kinds of tail (leafy sea dragon or eel perhaps, or even a ray-like costume, for instance).

[Joy&RaptorsUnrestrained!]

Oh, and my one concern about the vertical monofin and spear thing is that I can't find the guy's stuff online at all, except for that one video and a bunch of patent records for it... so is he just not making them? Is there something bogging down the patent? Is he really awful at keeping a working website? Where would one go for something like that?

[Joy&RaptorsUnrestrained!]

I did try swimming by wiggling my legs back and forth the other day at the pool, and while it was tiring since I wasn't used to moving like that, it didn't feel uncomfortable... I obviously didn't have fins on to propel me through the water, though, so I didn't move anywhere.

[Mermaid Wesley]

yeah i was a swimmer and the problem would be the movement. you would have to use your hips and there would be LOTS of drag since we arent meant to swim like that. I wouldnt look very good either since your knees cant move sideways.... but it would be cool if it worked!

[Nyx]

I actually was able to swim like this
sort of ish
I was messing around in the pool and trying to swim like a shark and I used more of my upper torso (shoulders to hips) to move.
Never as fast as the dolphin kick, and it gets tiring after a while, aaannndd it looks kind of awkward at times.
But for effect it's not entirely impossible in my opinion!

[Mer_Adella]

I agree with everyone that our bodies were not meant to move that way.

BUT

I did have an idea that I would like to toss out there just to see if anyone else has thought of it or it may be a possibility. Think of something mechanical (and i dont mean metal because that could damage things) but something where using belldance hipdrops you would be able to move the fin. Example. if you sat in a chair and stretched your legs out and leaned on one buttcheek while lifting the other up, one leg gets shorter...right? what if you had something in the fin (vertical) that you could "step" against that would push the fin to the opporsite side and reverse. ???

Still having problems understanding?

7853

[MerAnthony]

I don't know how well it worked but I found this.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6561862.html

It's for swimming.

[Mer_Adella]

ha ha ha ha merantony that is almost exactly what I had envisioned earlier :) good spotting

[Joy&RaptorsUnrestrained!]

Any word on the paddle thing? I think it is really cool, but I can't find any details on the company at all.

[MermaidBrittany]

The vertical monofin is actual how the mermaids at Weeki Watchi tried to start swimming, but it obviously didn't work out so they tried the other way. I think it is a lot of work to swim that way when the horizontal fin works so well. :)

[Aino Revontuletar]

Its a really cool idea, but the dude with the paddle and the vertical fin looked so awkward! Not to mention it didn't move him through the water very fast at all. The peddling mechanism looks like it would be way too bulky to work into a tail.I think I would just stick with the horizontal fin, it looks much more natural.

[Mermaid Caspiana]

It is totally possible! I've tried it! :) it is fun yet tiring. More for photoshoots and short film swims. Basically for cool look and effect. I actually have a drawing of this in one of my albums. An I soooo want that vertical monofin! And like Nyx said you have to really and I mean really use your whole body for this swim.

[Tasha Mermaid]

I dont think it would be swimmable, although i have been thinking along the lines of shark as well for a male tail (its gotta be real "manly to convince any males i know to join me *rolls eyes*) and my thoughts were more dolphin style tail but with side fins and back fin like a shark and maybe heel fin to give the "shark tail" look, i mean in general i figure a "real" mer would likely have a dolphin style tail them a fish as we swim like dolphins up and down not like fish from side to side (tail i mean) :)

[Echidna]

I actually was able to swim like this
sort of ish
I was messing around in the pool and trying to swim like a shark and I used more of my upper torso (shoulders to hips) to move.
Never as fast as the dolphin kick, and it gets tiring after a while, aaannndd it looks kind of awkward at times.
But for effect it's not entirely impossible in my opinion!

I have wondered about this too for a long time, and like Nyx said, it might be possible, but:
don't try to do the movement starting in your hips.
Humans don't have the skeleton of a fish; no aquatic mammal does.
Thus, to swim in a similar fashion, we would have to emulate a sea snake.

The movement would almost be the same as the dolphin kick, starting in chest and shoulders, then rippling through the rest of the body in a wave, just not vertically, but undulating from side to side.

If you happen to know SL (SecondLife), there is the "Deepsea Siren"-Avatar which moves in this way, and you can see the movement the knees have to do to make this work.

The next time I can get to a pool I will try this out.
Without a fin it probably won't be great, and I imagine one can't do it for long, as the stress on the spine and knees would become to much, but I'll tell you how it went.

I'd really like to see something like this.
It would be great in a "Deepsea"-kind of tail and costume.
Maybe a shark or seakrait one?

[Echidna]

Just adding the SL Deepsea-Siren pictures here.
Movements seen from the side and from above.

These are the moves that follow from hip and knees after the undulating chest and shoulder movement.
The fluke is between the feet.

[Echidna]

Might want to add; this is a completely human avatar, just with attached fins and a large, trailing floppy fluke between the feet.

This look could be similarly achieved by wearing a thin neoprene suit in such colours, some makeup on the still visible skin parts, and a vertical fluke design.

[MerMar]

The paddles! great tool for disable in land merpeople. What do you think on studying it?

[theMerFanc]

I have always loved sharks and it was the idea of a 'sharkmaid' that originally had me even think about mermaiding. If this was possible and there was someone willing to work on a custom tail I would be so in!

[theMerFanc]

I agree with everyone that our bodies were not meant to move that way.

BUT

I did have an idea that I would like to toss out there just to see if anyone else has thought of it or it may be a possibility. Think of something mechanical (and i dont mean metal because that could damage things) but something where using belldance hipdrops you would be able to move the fin. Example. if you sat in a chair and stretched your legs out and leaned on one buttcheek while lifting the other up, one leg gets shorter...right? what if you had something in the fin (vertical) that you could "step" against that would push the fin to the opporsite side and reverse. ???

Still having problems understanding?

7853

Before this thread was linked to me, I was trying to think how this would work and as a a belly dancing drummer, Iimmediately thought of that movement. A hip pop or a sway rather then bending at the knee.

[Mermaid Jaffa]

Or you could save yourself the hassle and injuries, by learning to swim in sideways only. Then you can make your tail with shark dorsal on one side etc.

[darksiren]

I've been thinking very hard about this, because I want to have one persona which is decidedly predatory. I've tried to swim in this manner, and i did eventually get fairly good speed. it's very tiring though, because i used little, rapid motions to propel me. I WILL be making a prototype shark fluke at some point. it WILL happen!!

[theMerFanc]

I've already started figuring out a fin. I'm one of those people who really doesn't care about my body. I'd rather die I having fun or break my body doing something I love then letting age get to me. I AM DETERMINED. Dark siren, we can be shark buddies. :D


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[theMerFanc]

Ok. So I was looking at Google images for shark tailed mermaids for ideas and I noticed some of them are long. Mi don't know about physics at all but I feel like if the tail was longer then the legs and the average mertails, would that make it easier or safer to swim in?

This is one picture I found that looked like a longer tail. http://hauket.deviantart.com/art/Shark-Mermaid-434731204


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[Mermaid Jaffa]

You could seriously hurt your spine swimming sideways like what you wanted. Might end up with bad back problems or even a paraplegic. Human spines are not designed the same way as shark spines. We were never meant to swim so uncomfortably like that.

[Mermaid Kelda]

Or you could save yourself the hassle and injuries, by learning to swim in sideways only. Then you can make your tail with shark dorsal on one side etc.
I've actually considered making a shark suit like this so the dorsal fin is on one shoulder. I actually find swimming sideways (like, totally sideways) is a good style for casual movement since you can easily keep your head above the water.

[theMerFanc]

My partner has agreed to be my Merhandler and my Merchanic! He and I have started designing a fluke that will work via a pull system rather then hip shifting so it is safer on your spine. I will be making a prototype soon and I will post a thread in the tailmaking section about this project :D

[darksiren]

@ the Afanc, I have been wondering about tail extension for both vertical and horizontal tails. No one seems to have done it (or documented it online, at least). I'm sure it would kill swimming quickly, but as far as maneuvering and posing for swims where movement and aesthetic is more important than efficiency, it would look much more realistic, I think.
As far as spine damage, one, the technique I used was almost all in my hips, not my back, and two, I would think you would stop if it was hurting-hurting (as opposed to "feel the burn" type hurting).

[theMerFanc]

@ the Afanc, I have been wondering about tail extension for both vertical and horizontal tails. No one seems to have done it (or documented it online, at least). I'm sure it would kill swimming quickly, but as far as maneuvering and posing for swims where movement and aesthetic is more important than efficiency, it would look much more realistic, I think.
As far as spine damage, one, the technique I used was almost all in my hips, not my back, and two, I would think you would stop if it was hurting-hurting (as opposed to "feel the burn" type hurting).

I have started a thread for the exploration and advancement of my shark tail idea and hopefully eventual product. I also have a video there where I talk about my idea and design for my vertical fin. I have since changed the idea little bit so I will be making a new video soon!

http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?12012-Shark-Tail-Oh-Ah-Ah!