Is This Offensive?

[AniaR]

I'm wondering what you all think about this: http://www.buzzfeed.com/perpetua/no-doubt-pulled-their-offensive-new-video
I was recently made aware just how much people don't like their culture being represented in costumes. E.g. Halloween Costumes, people wearing Hennah and Bindies if that's not their culture, wearing head scarves for fashion etc. I guess some people might be thinking "no duh." but I kinda figure everything in current trends, fashion, art, music etc can all be traced back to different original sources. Or at least influenced.

Nobody seems to make a big deal if someone portrays a culture they aren't in a movie, but a music video, a fashion spread, a photo.. seems to be different.

Personally, this video doesn't bother me, I think imitation is just another way we learn and draw ties to each other. I'm clearly not black, but I've gotten to experience a lot of black art through an art gallery I worked for, and participate in interactive pieces that in their normal state came from black ancestors. I'm not native, but I was invited to participate in a drum circle and I found it an amazing experience.

I guess I just find it hard to see the line when it comes to things like this as to what is taboo and what isn't. It doesn't bother me, but I can understand that I'm very biased by growing up with white and privileged. I can see with girls dressing in slutty Indian halloween costumes people getting offended.

What do you think? Did No Doubt make an offensive video?

[Toxotes]

I think a music video cannot be seen as a serious demonstration of any culture.
It is entertainment, nothing more.

[Koral]

I think it's sad that people are upset in a situation like this. I myself find American Indian culture fascinating and stunningly beautiful! Same with, say, belly dancers from the Middle East. I see nothing wrong with admiring another culture to the point of visually expressing the adoration. I wish that, if anything, the true cultures feeling "offended" would instead welcome it a little better. Sort of like, "I appreciate your flattery, but here is some education from someone truly of the culture," and just drop a few bits of information. I'm sure it's more trouble than its worth to them, though. But my point is... imitation is the highest form of flattery!

[Blondie]

I agree completely with Koral.

[Jadestone]

This is a tricky subject.

The thing is, a lot of people who belong to cultures that often get portrayed in costumes/media ARE offended by these sorts of things. They often perpetuate stereotypes or negative connotations that ultimately hurt the culture portrayed. There can be respectful instances, but they are fewer in number and often less widespread. And often, people will justify things like "Well I'm not offended, so they probably won't," which I can understand how it works but without growing up as the culture being represented you don't know how they might feel about it. A symbol I wouldn't blink twice at because I'm not familiar with the subject might actually be a source of stress/something that bothers people who are when they see it being misused or used for purposes other than what they're meant for.

In the case of American Indians, often the culture they see portrayed is the same one that was systematically destroyed by Europeans as they took control of the country by force.

So I can understand how seeing it portrayed by non-natives without reference to the immense history of pain and misappropriation could be a cause for anger/offense. So honestly, I can see why people wereoffended by this video. It bothered me, and I'm not in any way a part of this culture. It shows not only stereotypical Native American clothing/imagery (from what I can see, some incorrect, though I don't know enough about the culture to make more of an assessment than that). However, it depicts a kidnapping (they even point guns at her) and the video places the emphasis on looking sexy. There's no mention of the mistreatment of tribes in history or the terrible things done to them, just a white girl dancing and the overt sexualization of the "cowboys and indians" concept. It trivializes the matter.

However: not everything has to be offensive. There can (and are!!) many tasteful examples where people respectfully display different cultures. I think one of the key things is to not trivialize the culture, and to make sure you fully understand it's history and what might be offensive to people within it.

[Koral]

Ultimately, this was done in America. America runs on "freedom of ______" Speech, expression, whatever. So, Americans are free to do or say many things (even if it is spoken or portrayed wrongly). and (again I use the word) ultimately, if someone is bothered - then "oh well." Some will just be bothered. And some will love it. The great thing about humans is we are not all alike to-the-T, so everyone responds differently. I still stick to what I said earlier, but wanted to add this bit in as well.

I will also say it's a real bloody shame that "no one but Native Americans" can wear clothing close to, inspired by, etc to theirs. It's a beautiful cultural fashion they have, to hold to themselves and then "all" become livid to see other cultures wearing it, or something inspired by it.

[Prince Calypso]

Look I'm black as you can all see lol White people have been wearing costumes of us for ages even into mondern day and you wanna know why you don't see thta many black people complaining? because imitation is the highest form of flattery. I found nothing offensive about this video considering that almost all Americans have or had native american blood in their family at some point. Cher"s video Half breed depict Cher in full Indian drag and no one said shit. the same goes for over half of her performances and her Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves video talks about the Roma people using the term that some Roma consider a racial slur.

people are getting way to worked up over the dumbest and most trival shit and the thing that gets me is, hardly any Native Americans have said anything about the video being offensive.

[Jadestone]

Oh, I certainly don't think it should be illegal. But I also understand why many people found it offensive to make light of a century of enslavement/horrible treatment *shrug* People should certainly have the right to do as they will, but other people have the right to feel however they want to about it as well.

[mermanjr]

I say it depends on ones point of view and how a person views it I guess < to me I look at it AS a video that someone made and i just pay it no mind and another my find it offensive , thus it relates back to ones point of view again

[Koral]

considering that almost all Americans have or had native american blood in their family at some point.

Ding ding ding! Another really really good point.

And I say this in the nicest way possible. But I did kind of giggle to myself Jade when you stated "make light of a century of enslavement/horrible treatment," when lovely Calypso even admitted how blacks have received imitation for ages. I don't recall near as many natives getting enslaved as much as blacks (correct me if I am wrong - a actually don't as I am just making a statement). BOTH were treated horribly, yes. That being said...

...it's in the past. It's done. It's over. Perhaps white man is being more offended than the natives for fear of stepping on toes? I mean, we are still treating them pretty bad. Maybe instead of gasping at music videos ETC, white man should be going to their reservations with gifts of food and land, maybe better living conditions or quality homes by decent architects, and encouragement to pay homage to their age old cultures, so on.

[ivoryleopard]

How is it offensive? Really? I think people are getting to sensitive about things. If it were out right trying to be offensive then that's another thing.

On the thing about wearing other cultures clothing. We all do it at some point and it's because we had found something we like and beautiful from it. Think about fact that most people wear western hemisphere style clothing and they do not live in a Western society. Plus North America is a melting pot. There's so much influence from all over.

Part of my family is from Goa, India. It does not bother me that people like cultures that are not their own. We live in a fascinating world! I love seeing and experiencing what other people do, especially through food. What does bother me is when people obsess over it (pretending they are from there and usually in a bad stereotype sort of way), act like they know more than a person form that culture or it becomes a latest trend. People's Cultures are not trends. Like the idea that it's cool to date someone by culture because it's trending. Even with clothing! I remember being laughed at for wearing a kurta/tunic top because it was viewed as something out of style from the 70s. Nevermind that almost every person from South Asian decent wears them. I cannot turn off the Indian side of me because it's viewed as not cool anymore.

Heck, considering the fact that I grew up in a town where people thought my culture was weird at the time, it's nice to see others being open and embracing our differences now.

Anyway back to the video. It looks more like a Cowboy and Indians themed video than anything else. Granted American Indians were usually stereotyped and portrayed as the bad guys in Westerns but it looks more like the cowboys were the bad guys in the video.

[Koral]

(BTW I have to throw out there.... CHER. I love Cher omfg!! <3)

[Elle]

I don't see anything offensive about it.
But here there it's hard to draw that line. particularly because it's part of who we are to offend everybody. We don't mean it to be rude and nasty, we just like taking the piss out of each other. And yes, sometimes that gets us in trouble with other countries and nationalities (like Harry Connick Jr and that whole blackfaces thing [and i did find that funny, sorry!]), but the fact is that's how we live.
I think the world needs to get over all this political correctness

[Jadestone]

Actually, the "most Americans have Native American blood" is factually incorrect : / It might be different if more people did than actually do.

From what I've heard from Native American(and Asian, and African American) friends/read (I took a class on something very similar to this subject last year) from people in other cultures, many people want to stop being treated as second-class citizens and to get rid of the stereotypes and laws that still help to suppress them in almost every part of the United States. There's a line between imitation as flattery (which I certainly approve of!) and imitation that perpetuates negative/harmful beliefs. Sadly, sometimes attempts at the former end up as the latter :( There was a recent "I am a culture, not a costume" campaign that went around to try to draw awareness to this if you're interested in looking up more about it :)

I guess from what I hear from people, I don't see it as really being all in the past? A lot of remnants stick around today :( And yes, it would be nice if we would stop STILL trying to take away land from Reservations or give back some historical territories, but the majority of America doesn't seem to think it's an issue :(

I guess I see it as perhaps by bringing videos like this more into the public eye, and trying to be more educational and respectful, that can change :)

[Koral]

My bad then. I have Native American in me, and have heard for years and in my history classes that many/most Americans have N.A. blood in them. We settled here when they pretty much had all the land, and we took it over - as well as their women. Sorry to be incorrect, thanks for correcting me! :)

Still, there seems to be many people not offended and some quite offended. Proof I guess that it will always be a touchy subject for some, and not so much for others! C'est la vie. *shrug*

[Kanti]

People need to start getting offended over the right things.. This is a video made for entertainment, nothing more.
It's not trying to educate anyone about native americans nor does it pretend to. It's just using the style towards
a visually appealing goal which I think it did very well.

I think maybe people should start getting offended that people are abusing natural resources, lobbying government
officials, paying people off to get laws written.. Oh I don't know, things that are a little more important than a music
video that you'd only listen to if you cared to click it.

[Koral]

I'm probably missing half the point, as I haven't even looked at the video, but still felt I had some cents to pay on the general topic. hahaha
Maybe I will watch it. Naaah... another time. If I remember.

[Kanti]

You don't really need to. It's just a video made to look nice and the theme that was chosen
was basically a "cowboys and indians" sort of thing.
There was certainly no offense meant by the video.. They were not mocking the native american
culture in any way nor depicting it in any sense that could be deemed as intentional harm, they were
only donning the outfits, so apparently it was offensive solely for that reason.

Funny how people who claim to be fighting racism only use racism to further instigate problems.

[AniaR]

No Doubt made a statement about it, they did talk to a lot of people before doing it to test the waters, had native friends watch it, as well as some higher ups. They got the green light to go- but in the few days the video was online people went crazy so they pulled it.

I do see where some of the arguments are coming from, I guess I just feel like these days people choose to be offended. We know what someone means, what their intent is, but we get offended anyway over OUR interpretation.

[Koral]

Perhaps some people even think it's the trendy thing to do, to be against it...?
Humanity does seem to follow fads and trends, after all. Monkey see monkey do.

[Alveric]

My two pet peeves are first those who choose to become offended on behalf of a group they are not a part of without finding out how individuals from that group actually feel.

The second are the professional offense takers, those who act concerned but who in truth feed off of and profit from divisions between groups.

These people actually hinder understanding and progress.

[Artisankatie]

I agree with the imitation is the highest form of flattery thing.

Take Ganguro for example, where Japanese girls tan their skin, bleach their hair and exaggerate stereotypes of white 'California girls'. Do any white people here get offended by that? I don't feel like the Ganguro girls are disrespecting me, even though IMO some of them look ridiculous. I think anyone who got offended by No Doubt should probably just say 'lol, she looks like an idiot' rather than kick up a fuss about how offended they are.

I do think it's disrespectful to take a cultural symbol and misuse it though (except in the case of parellel symbols where, say, your cultural symbol for peace is my symbol for war or whatever). For example, taking something that has deep meaning for a culture, like a bindi or whatever, and wearing it like it means nothing, doing things while wearing it that would be abhorrent to the culture, which might result in a 'visual rumour', where uneducated people might think that EVERYONE who wears that symbol does this thing. I would be very offended by that. Like if one mermaid were to be very public in doing slutty things, the rest of us would get upset if people thought that's what everyone who does mermaiding is like.

[green52]

OMG I AM SHOCKED THAT YOU WOULD ALL DENEGRATE THE PROUD INDIAN WE MUST RESPECT THEIR CULTURE BY NEVER TALKING ABOUT IT EVER AGAIN EVER

jk. I agree with pretty much everyone else. I didn't find it offensive, but I respect someone else's right to be offended. Along with Alverec, I don't have much patience for people who are offended on someone else's behalf.

Calypso, good for you for taking culture theft in stride. The alternative would probably just to be bitter about it forever, which sounds unpleasant. Plus, I think your attitude is part of the reason more black artists are getting the recognition they deserve historically, even if its often post-mortem.

[MerAnthony]

They just did the same thing over a Victoria secret model wearing a head dress:doh:. I think that they are taking it a bit to far. Pretty soon you will see them having a cow about kids playing cowboys and indians and they are in costume.

[Spindrift]

I would definitely find the situation offensive if the people in costume were portraying the culture in an extremely obnoxious way. Like, if someone was dressed up as an "Asian princess" or however those store bought costume packages are marketed, and the person was all like "Ching chong ching chee!" all night and pulling their eyelids or something I might be inclined to punch them or shove their face in a bucket of water. Basically I don't like obnoxious people. Although it's much more likely that obnoxious people will have the brilliant idea of dressing up as other cultures as a Halloween costume anyway. I mean, for the most part. If they're not being obnoxious or trying to really push on some sort of low class kind of thinking stereotype then there really isn't a problem. That's why babies have it easy a lot of the time, I guess.

The things in the pictures below, I find a little obnoxious.

http://www.racialicious.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/STAR-5.jpg

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/111025061708-costume-culture-2-vertical-gallery.jpg

http://www.islamophobiatoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/article-2053134-0E85B6E800000578-103_634x948.jpg

Or maybe it's because I don't like Twilight (for the first picture).

Anyway, for music videos and movies and other stuff... I'm on the fence because I obviously can't talk about the entire idea as a whole. It's fine to say negative things about other cultures because your own culture looks at those values or experiences differently. I dislike a lot of things in American culture, but I also dislike things in other cultures. Like, that's fine. It's understandable. When you portray it in a movie or something that will be seen by a lot of people you do have to be careful about the kind of connotation you're trying to share though. Like Rihanna's video with Coldplay for the song "Princess of China" had a lot of South East Asian elements of it (Thai or Burmese/Myanmar), but it definitely had a distinctive lack of Chinese culture except for maybe a few scenes featuring Chinese cinema. It wasn't insulting or anything. Just inaccurate, if that was what they were going for.

[Spindrift]

I'm not against dressing up as other cultures on the whole though. I think that there are a lot of situations it would work, like how they use cultural costumes in MadTV's skits sometimes. It's just you know, taste.

Also I had a white teacher who spoke perfect Chinese in high school dress up as Asian every year and sometimes just regularly (like traditional clothes) and everyone just thought it was super cool because she taught classes on Asian history and could really get you into the subject because she was passionate about it. That was awesome.

[Nate Walis]

I'm of mixed Norse and Celtic Briton ancestry, so you can find the first instances of stereotyping for my people before the birth of Christ, when the Romans did us the favour of deciding that we were barbarians who needed to be taught how to live in a civilised manner.

Next came the Viking age in which we created trading routes that reached Constantinople, Iran and almost to India, founded many of the greatest nations in the old world - including Russia - and reached the Americas before the nation of Spain even existed, let alone had an empire. But more commonly we were remembered as pirates and looters on account of the chronicles written by Christian monks.

The Normans followed suit, actually conquering the majority of the British Isles and setting in motion the reforms in government that would lead inevitably to Runnymead and Magna Carta. But we were convenient villains for later generations who wanted to make heroes out of the Anglo Saxons and painted us as arrogant and cruel Frenchmen with no backbone and nothing to offer the country.

From there my people went north with David, king of Scotland and put down roots, until the English decided that the clans were savages again and waged wars putting them down until the country was nothing more than an extension of their own.

My point is that all peoples have at one time been the victims, and while the memory never fades, in time it has to become history and they have to move on.

But of course showing respect and not being an ignorant moron helps this process greatly.

[flashcards]

I guess it's 90% how person B perceives it and 10% how person A meant it...

[AniaR]

exactly what flashcards said