Mixed feelings about marine parks.

[Nyx]

I was reading a few articles about show animals in aquariums and parks today and saw that a lot of the comments said things like "its cruel, inhumane, a death sentence"; and while yes,there are zoo's and aquariums that abuse their animals, I can't help but think this isn't always the case and people seem quick to bash places like seaworld.
I however don't have enough research in my hands to make an opinion and argument for or against marine parks. Sometimes I feel like they do too many things wrong, sometimes I like what they stand for.
I can't help but think that those animal rescuers and trainers must develop a bond and desire to care for the animals. One of my many dreams is to design animal exhibits; I want to make homes for animals where they can feel safe and at peace and get enough stimulation, and for people to be able to view them and learn about them and hopefully try to do something for the species. I love the fact that keepers train their animals and develop ways to interact with them safely, I don't like the idea of animals getting exploited and over worked in shows.
As a young and very impressible mind, I wanted to know what professionals and people who know what they are talking about in the forum think about aquariums and marine parks.

[Mermaid Danielle]

I'm in the same boat as you, I don't really have enough information to support an opinion...

[Coradion]

Well, as someone who works at an aquarium I can maybe help shed some light on things.

When it comes to vertebrates there are incredibly strict regulations on capture, housing, feeding, and inspection. If you know anyone who wants to go to vet school or has been it is extremely competitive to become a vet and on top of it to get a job after. All vertebrate animal facilities with public displays require a primary vet and a backup vet to be on call or on site at all times.

Facilities are also subject to inspections both scheduled and random by several different facilities and must keep their standards up. I've been present for some inspection and they are pretty rigorous. Some of the things we have to do at our aquarium to keep monk seals, we only have two are daily energetic requirements for figuring out feed amounts, and weekly water quality tests. We take our seal tank water to a lab and if our parameters are off we have to adjust and bring water back the next day, every day until it meets the standards.

To say a facility is a death sentence and cruel is a bit ridiculous for most facilities in the U.S. Really you should not be commenting on an animal's health unless you have formal training with the species. People think our seals are sick when they vocalize, it's a normal behavior. We have reports from the public that they are "molding" it's just algae that grows on their fur which is naturally molted off.

In a facility like a zoo or aquarium animals have no predators, yes even large whales are preyed upon by other whales or at times sharks and people. They also have enough food to meet their water requirements. Most marine mammals get the water they need to survive from eating fishes and other marine animals, they cannot drink saltwater. This is HUGE as they will never worry about food, most fish prep for marine mammals involves taking restaurant quality seafood and screening it again before feeding. They get fish and squid a tier above what we would at a restaurant.

Enrichment is the term used for stimulating an animal. In the wild much of their time is spent hunting, since they are fed regularly and don't have to work that hard for food, captive animals often have more time to play. Enrichment items are changed out regularly and the reason most animals have new trained behaviors that are given constantly are to give them something new and mentally stimulating. Behaviors also make animal research possible. You cannot do good research very well if you need blood samples from an animal every week or so and they aren't trained.

Captive animals are typically encouraged to reproduce. How many animals in the wild get ultrasounds and prenatal care? Not many. You can also artificially inseminate a whale or dolphin to increase genetic diversity that may not happen in an inbred wild pod.

I guess I've been on the receiving end of a lot of negative comments from the public who have told me how some of the animals I take care of should be kept. On the whole everything they say is useless. Most people are uneducated on the specifics of the species, the systems they live in, and the rules and regulations that ensure a place is well maintained. It's also been my experience that even when there is a sick fish or seal people assume the animal is "playing" or "resting" or "sleeping". If you really are concerned about a facility in particular you can look up the regulations for the animals. Most numbers and conditions are not arbitrary and you can look up the science that went into developing those protocols if you really suspect true neglect.

At the end of the day though it's your call, I've only worked in a few facilities that have marine mammals and vertebrates. You can say they're not free and limited, but at the end of the day especially with my facilities monk seals one would not be alive due to blindness and the other would probably have died years ago from his old age and inability to compete for food at that age.

[Dacora]

As long as they are healthy and getting the care they need I dont see anything wrong with it. Yes there are some zoos and aquariums that take terrible care of their animals but its unfair to judge them all like that. Especially the ones that take in animals that would not be able to survive in the wild or the ones that breed and release endangered animals and work hard to do so.

So boycott the ones that treat their animals badly, but support the good zoos,aquariums and marine parks that help out the Earth and actually do good.

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[Aquatarian]

I for one don't have any experience in aquariums or marine parks but I do see a doubled edge sword at times.

I think there are both pros and cons to living in captivity and to living in the wild. It's just my personal opinion that animals belong in the wild. Especially when it comes to the larger brained organisms.

Now I am all for it when places like Sea World get a call and find a wounded manatee or injured sea turtle, take it back to the park, and nurse it back to health. I have no problem when it's in regards to the animals survival. I also am in favor of the scientific studies they do. But what bothers me is that they keep some animals in captivity just for the sake of keeping them in captivity. For example keeping large whales and dolphins in tanks bothers me. They may get fed around the clock and have excellent health care but none of those things are a substitute for the ocean & for freedom. Because at the end of the day they have swum around that same tank probably about 100 times and will have nothing else to look forward to for the rest of their lives.

I guess I try to think of it in terms of a real mermaid. haha. If they did find a real mermaid (and decided not to dissect her lol), even if they made sure she had great medical care, was well fed, and well bred, wouldn't you rather she be in the wild?

I suppose this is the part when I mention The Declaration of Cetacean Rights ;)

[AptaMer]

I've been to the Monterey Bay Aquarium in Cali. and been very impressed. All the animals, even the largest ones, have plenty of room. The displays are learning and science-blased. This is the kind of place that I think is very good. I have also visited the Aquarium of the Americas in New Orleans, and I would say the same thing about it- I thought it was great and felt good for the animals.

A new Ripley's Aquarium is being built here in Toronto, so we'll see how they turn out, animal care and ethics-wise.

Neither of those aquaria keep huge animals like whales, or even just big ones like dolphins and pinnipeds. I think that's important, because the cost of maintaining tanks large enough for those animals must be huge, and this is perhaps where the Sea World/Marineland/Dolphinarium type parks fall down.

I've only been to one park that keeps whales, Marineland in Niagara Falls, Ontario, and I was concerned. The animals are basically in jail. Their pools look huge to us, but based on the size of the animals, they're not much bigger than a small cell would be for a human. Also, there's no possibility to leave the tanks, apart from in a sling in a truck, I suppose. At least in human jails they have an exercise yard with a bit more space the inmates can get out and exercise in.

Marineland has been getting a lot of bad press lately. Just one example

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2012/10/18/marineland_killer_whale_bleeding_for_months_traine r_says.html

I think Marineland is in economic decline, and they are having trouble paying for the animals upkeep and for staff. Niagara Falls tourism declined precipitously when the big economic recession hit in 2008. Maybe other parks with whales are maintaining better standards, but I looked up a few other parks, and while they appeared clean and well-run, it was obvious the animals pools were painfully small. A lot of animal incidents have happened at these types of parks, which don't ever seem to happen at the well-run nonprofit aquaria. Wikipedia has a list that is revealing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incidents_at_SeaWorld_parks

I can see how it would be very rewarding to work at these parks if you love animals, and the captivity doesn't seem bad to you. This is a publicity video made for Seaworld, and you can see the love the trainers have for the animals, what an amazing job it must be.


http://youtu.be/9o94CtSVqTM

Warning, some difficult stuff is coming up.

But there was a moment of catch-in-your-throat recognition when the veterinarian says "I'm going to come over here by you, Dawn" at 15:36 minutes into the video. He's talking to Dawn Brancheau, the trainer who would be killed a few years later, by the large male whale Tilikum that you see later in the video.

This person had a lot to say that was important, I think


http://youtu.be/X03UrpOsvk8

Here's a bunch of bad press on the parks again

http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2012/08/02/157714274/killer-whales-message-to-seaworld-captured-on-video

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2175966/Killer-whales-Seaworld-teeth-removed-power-drills-left-mourn-separated-young-claims-shocking-new-book.html#axzz2K0Jjg4zZ

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/seaworld-putting-orca-tra_b_1721760.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1371403/Tilikum-SeaWorld-puts-dangerous-whale-killed-trainer-show.html#axzz2K0Jjg4zZ

Maybe others can weight in with thoughts pro and con, but I'm really concerned about the for-profit parks that keep whales and other large animals.

[malinghi]

I might be mistaken in my conviction that a lot of marine mammal aquariums are unethical, but the lifespan of orcas in captivity is way shorter than their lifespan in the wild, right? Is that fact incorrect? Cause if it isn't, that alone is enough to convince me that captivity is wrong for large aquatic mammals, and that's without even considering the size of their enclosures.

http://www.orcahome.de/lifeexpectancy.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_killer_whales#Disease_and_reduced_lifespan

[SeaGlass Siren]

Biased opinion and stubborn mer coming through !!

Nothing is educational/conservatory about making animals perform tricks for a large audience on your terms.

[Kanti]

I dunno, I think its pretty much a no-brainer.
If you were an apex predator like an orca, that literally spends most of it's time playing rather than
hunting for food, forms complex and closely knit family relations and travels thousands of miles in
any given day, would you prefer being wild in your natural habitat or being thrown into a blank, unstimulating
room with a couple windows where sometimes animals of a different species come to teach you tricks for you
to perform endlessly over and over and over again? Would you like to be grouped with a bunch of random
strangers that if you happen to form sour relationships with, you have no ways of escaping them? Would you
be okay with performing the same shows until you die? Because guess what, you're not allowed to retire.

[Coradion]

You can argue the same thing for pretty much any captive animal, horses, dogs, cats, birds, etc. Charismatic megafauna just tends to draw more attention. If an animal is doing tricks it is being mentally stimulated even if it's repetitive.

[FreshWaterMermaid]

I just can't agree with you Cordion.
Everyone is truly entitled to their own opinion though. And I understand having worked in the cetacean entertainment industry one would be biased.

However I've done much research for papers and debates on the subject and my stance is that there currently, really isn't a healthy or productive way to keep large/intelligent cetaceans.
Horses and dogs have been in the care of humans for 5,000 to 6,000 years. And still people are learning new ways to care for horses' feet (barefoot trimming), body (chiropractic work), and teeth (natural dentistry), to better their health.
FYI whales have only been in captivity since the late 1960s and early 1970s.
Currently, to truly provide the most natural environment for such a large and intelligent animal the tank size alone would have to at least resemble an area like that of an Alaskan cove.
And for food, dead fish is dead fish. Hunting is their true natural stimulation, which they enjoy. Why can't we feed live fish and squid, seals, penguins? ... $$$$$
No to mention the fish they do feed are loaded with antibiotics and ulcer medications, because the stress they endure, for whatever reasons (there can be many) is causing bodily pain, just like a human would experience.
The last is obvious from what you see and hear in the news. Trainer deaths and violent whale injuries and death as well.

If you can give me more of a substantial rebuttal perhaps it would make it easier to agree to keep places like seaworld around.

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[AptaMer]

Just remembered that some time back I visited another nonprofit aquarium- the Waikiki Aquarium in Honolulu. That was a great place! Not on the same scale as Monterey Bay or Aquarium of the Americas. They had way less displays, but they were excellent, and you could tell the care of the animals was top-notch.

The place was also science-based, and they were doing some excellent work in keeping corals and other hard-to-maintain animals healthy.

Also, the work they're doing to rescue monk seal pups and juveniles and try to return them to the population is soo important. The Hawaiian monk seal is one of the most endangered seals in the world, I think? Anyhow, I must say those monk seals are just adorable!

If you're in Honolulu, you couldn't do better than support them by taking time off from the beach and making the trek out to their location to take in the aquarium. They have some great vistas out over the sea from there too.

[SeaGlass Siren]

Not very convincing. I agree with FreshWater. i would like to correct my previous statement. wasn't aware that "animal" was being used to address every single captive dog, bird, iguana on the planet (especially since we were only talking about marine parks. didn't know marine parks had dogs or birds either. don't mind the sarcasm).


Nothing is educational/conservatory about making cetaceans (that were previously wild) perform tricks for a large (might i add roaring) audience on your terms. Also, let's not forget how sensitive their hearing is.

edit: i think a FEW certain aquariums are great in taking care of their fishlings. there are some places that dont though and they deserve to burn :| (off topic: can they really burn if it's a place surrounded with water? :P )

[AptaMer]

(off topic: can they really burn if it's a place surrounded with water? :P )

Totally off topic. We wouldn't want to see this happen to a bunch of captive whales or well-meaning staff. It is possible to make stuff that burns on water and can't be put out. The ancient Greeks were famous for their formula that did this. Other chemists have made similar flammable liquids. Lithium really goes in water.


http://youtu.be/ojGaAGDVsCc

Of course what you really want is the Wildfire made by the alchemists from the Game of Thrones.


http://youtu.be/MZVyR-Wv9Ec

Please don't actually do this, unless a horde of bloodthirsty barbarians is attacking your town intent on committing harm. People have gotten seriously burned playing with lithium in water, don't do it.

[FreshWaterMermaid]

Oooh sounds like a fun experiment lol
Good thing you can't just go to your grocer and pick up lithium anymore lol

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[Kanti]

You can argue the same thing for pretty much any captive animal, horses, dogs, cats, birds, etc. Charismatic megafauna just tends to draw more attention. If an animal is doing tricks it is being mentally stimulated even if it's repetitive.

I actually agree that it does happen to almost every captive animal.
Dogs don't necessarily get much freedom, they don't get to see other dogs
whenever they want unless the live with them, cats are the only exception, since
most people let their cats outside and they get to interact. Birds are highly
contained, often not allowed to go anywhere. So yea, I'd say that does happen.

Doing repetative tricks isn't stimulating because you're no longer learning anything
new. If you put a 4 year old in a christmas play, they only learn the first time they
memorize the lyrics. Their first play is probably exciting, but after they've done it
15 times it becomes boring and repetative. These whales do the same shows over
300 times. Imagine if you had to do that? I'd be maddening!

[Kanti]

I just can't agree with you Cordion.
Everyone is truly entitled to their own opinion though. And I understand having worked in the cetacean entertainment industry one would be biased.

However I've done much research for papers and debates on the subject and my stance is that there currently, really isn't a healthy or productive way to keep large/intelligent cetaceans.
Horses and dogs have been in the care of humans for 5,000 to 6,000 years. And still people are learning new ways to care for horses' feet (barefoot trimming), body (chiropractic work), and teeth (natural dentistry), to better their health.
FYI whales have only been in captivity since the late 1960s and early 1970s.
Currently, to truly provide the most natural environment for such a large and intelligent animal the tank size alone would have to at least resemble an area like that of an Alaskan cove.
And for food, dead fish is dead fish. Hunting is their true natural stimulation, which they enjoy. Why can't we feed live fish and squid, seals, penguins? ... $$$$$
No to mention the fish they do feed are loaded with antibiotics and ulcer medications, because the stress they endure, for whatever reasons (there can be many) is causing bodily pain, just like a human would experience.
The last is obvious from what you see and hear in the news. Trainer deaths and violent whale injuries and death as well.

If you can give me more of a substantial rebuttal perhaps it would make it easier to agree to keep places like seaworld around.

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I still even feel bad for horses and dogs. Though they've been domesticated they're treated
like beings that don't have feelings a lot. I'm currently working on a farm and the horses are
so blah when it comes to people. You can tell they know that whenever a person comes in their
stall it means they have to do boring stuff because they avoid it a lot. The horses ignore people
when they come near the gate because they don't necessarily have a mutual relationship. They're
only contacted when something is needed from them.

[FreshWaterMermaid]

That's a bummer Kanti. I work at a christian horse camp and teach riding lessons in the off season. It seems like the horses at the farm are either burned out or their riders don't really have that respect ans none with them that natural horsemen try to achieve and up keep on a daily basis.
Some days at the barn I do feel sorry for our horses. But then there's the days that they don't have to work with kids, we give them days off, or the instructors get to ride. Then you can see the horses are finals enjoying themselves and having fun.
But yes there are hardships horses have dealt with in their time. "Beast of burden"
Dogs... if they've got a job will work it to their hearts content. Lol they love pleasing us.
But going back to the topic, I cannot compare the mental capacity of a dog and horse to that of a cetacean. For one herbivorous ungulates are never really known for their smarts, and dogs; are smart, they once were predators, but now only a few have canine 'smarts'.
*shrugs* my two cents ;)

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[AniaR]

I haven't read all the replies yet,

But I think many of us have mixed feelings. For me, It doesn't bother me seeing most animals in zoos or aquariums, with zoos there tends to be a lot of conservation. You get to see these rare beautiful animals, learn about them, and if the zoo is done right they are cared for really well. They're so much healthier than in the wild. But at the same time my first visit to a zoo I saw a polar bear doing weird behaviour that reminded me of my work with autism where kids will do something called "stimming" which is a repeated behaviour over and over again. It was really disturbing to see. broke my heart.

In Aquariums I think most of the animals are perfectly fine. I think it's important we conserve ocean creatures as well especially at the rate we're destroying the ocean. I do think there's huge value in education through an aquarium because for many people they would never ever learn those things otherwise. Once you educate people about the ocean and the creatures they're likelier to become personally invested in it. That being said, I'm not comfortable with the majority of marine mammals being in aquariums because for a huge majority of them they're quite detrimental to their health, well being, and mental health. You see a lot of those stimming behaviours. Also, unlike the other creatures in aquariums and zoos, marine mammals get slated to "perform". Even when they're rescued animals. I believe there's a law that sea world can't have a marine mammal and not have it on display for the public. It's a huge money making business and we already know the damage it does with things like the cove, and the shady underworld of black market stuff. I remember when the pilot whale were stranded in Florida, sea world didn't step into help until most of them were dead. Then they only took in the animal that was likeliest to survive and didn't help the remaining whale. There is no catch, heal, and release.

When I was a kid I dreamed about Marine Land in Toronto. I went there and it was amazing to me to see whales up close. They were like mythological creatures suddenly made real. But then I became an adult and learned all of these things.

For me, I enjoy aquariums, and I avoid "parks" where animals are forced to perform. I can't be black or white on the issue and say marine mammals in captivity is all good or all bad because I believe it comes down to the individual animal. On one end, I'm happy an injured animal survives, but on the other- what a life you know? So I personally choose to abstain from supporting those institutions. It's really hard for me. I love those creatures and seeing them up close like that seems amazing. I'd love to swim with dolphins- but then I learned about that too. I feel like I am sacrificing a big part of my dreams, but I'm doing it for the right reasons. Once you've learned and seen certain things you just can't look back I suppose.

[FreshWaterMermaid]

I really like how you put that Raina.
The difference should be noted between aquariums and parks, Definitely.
And I hadn't known the term 'stimming' before. Makes total sense. I see that way too much, that is the sad part.

I suppose without further pushing/protesting we can only hope the visual image can help in educating the future generation.
I do remember my first visits to sea world and I loved every minute of those trips. San diego zoo was also one of my faves. I did learn quite a bit, so I suppose something can be learned for everyone. I hope it's enough...

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[SeaGlass Siren]

Totally off topic. We wouldn't want to see this happen to a bunch of captive whales or well-meaning staff. It is possible to make stuff that burns on water and can't be put out. The ancient Greeks were famous for their formula that did this. Other chemists have made similar flammable liquids. Lithium really goes in water.


http://youtu.be/ojGaAGDVsCc

Of course what you really want is the Wildfire made by the alchemists from the Game of Thrones.


http://youtu.be/MZVyR-Wv9Ec

Please don't actually do this, unless a horde of bloodthirsty barbarians is attacking your town intent on committing harm. People have gotten seriously burned playing with lithium in water, don't do it.

continuing to be off topic: i want to set fire to rain now. yes. now i know that this is completely possible!

[FreshWaterMermaid]

I just found this picture... oh my gosh, her face! Lol awesome ;)
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/02/11/yba4y4ym.jpg
someone was bored.

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[Mermaid Linda Stephanie]

I don't post very often, but I do have some things to say about this topic that may help because I have worked with many captive marine animals over the years including one whale, dolphins, sea lions, penguins, sea turtles and currently rays, sharks, fish and invertebrates. I can definitely see both sides of the spectrum. On the one hand, there is something so majestic and awe-inspiring about seeing these animals in their natural environment. On the other end, there ARE animals in captivity. It is what it is. With that being said, I think Raina has it right: parks and aquariums. The facilities that you see that are big and beautiful are AZA accredited. They go to great lengths to establish their facility under AZA regulations, which is pretty lengthy and sometimes difficult. I started at the Long Beach Aquarium which was AZA accredited then moved to a marine mammal park (which wasn't) then moved on again. By all means, the marine mammal park did some amazing work with the animal behavior early on. Even B.F. Skinner came and worked at our park and his daughter became a trainer. They did much work that enhanced the education of marine mammals. They actually took the dolphins out into the wild alongside boats and did research with them; the curator wrote many books about their research.

However, nowadays, they educate public enough to say they "educate the public." They definitely are not conservation-based, but we were required to tell the public after each show or lecture to "pick up trash on the beach." Raina, I might be able to explain the "stimming" behavior that you were seeing. When you are face-to-face with a 500+ pound animal, you need it to know you are in control and they will not turn on you. I don't mean this to say that they are "unhappy" or "angry," just that not all dolphins are naturally "happy" creatures, yet these are very human characteristics (giving animals human characteristics is known as "anthropomorphizing" and doing this was a big no-no). Just like your dog or cat, they can get frustrated or excited and bite; or if they turned too quickly, we'd get a fluke in the thigh. When putting guests in the water, we also tried to stay away from this happening. So this "stimming" is actually them failing a behavior and asking it again. At our facility, we asked three times and moved on if they continued to fail so as not to get them frustrated. In the end, everything had to be positive and stimulating for them, but it was a constant effort to keep their behavior maintained. We never "made" any animal do anything they didn't want to do. For instance, one occasion in a show, two male dolphins decided to ditch the show and play with each other. Since none of the trainers could get them to station, the rest of the show was spent with them playing with each other. Another time during the show, the narrator was explaining training techniques and the dolphin was to touch his rostrum to the ball. Well, this dolphin wanted to eat the ball...and he did just that! The trainer asked two more times and all he wanted to do was eat the ball, so she moved on and was able to reinforce him for another behavior. Like I said, it's a constant effort and there is so much more that goes into working with marine mammals than "they are so sad in their captive environment." With all these examples, it sounds like they couldn't do anything, lol, but everything is considered: social structures, health, behavior, diets, etc. And they did very occasionally give live fish as stimulation. But in the end, it is a business. The park, animals and staff depend on the admission and interactions. While it sounds good and great to stop supporting this, I believe losing that business will, in turn, hurt the animals, not help them. While they get the very best care, if there is not any means to provide this care, corners would have to be cut. And there is no "Free Willy" mindset; you cannot release a marine mammal into the wild. Marine mammals in captivity would die if they were ever released. If anything, they would just get sent to another facility, which would crowd pools. That's what we want to avoid!

Am I in agreement with what happens in Taiji? Absolutely not! But that's NOT how all dolphins are brought to facilities either. Nowadays, especially in the US, parks trade animals to avoid incest breeding. I don't know the exact letter of the law, but I know in the US the marine mammal protection act prevents capturing dolphins or whales. However, at the facility where I worked we did bring in two whales from Japan. Their option was to be slaughtered or come to our park. We took them with open arms and they lived 30+ years, which is probably longer than they would have lived in the wild and definitely longer than they would have lived wherever they were in Japan.

I'm not saying all facilities are the same; that was just my experience working with them. Sea lions, penguins, sharks, rays and sea turtles are on a very different spectrum and working with their behavior, diets and facilities is also on a completely different scale.

Case-in-point: it's a vicious cycle. We all love to see animals in the wild, but since they are in captivity and have great healthcare, it is what it is. This is our opportunity to learn and be inspired to help them in the future. Not by cutting costs which could eventually hurt the animals that are there, but to find ways of helping them in the wild such as cutting fishing lines and lures, cleaning our seas, etc. I'm not looking for an argument; everyone has their own opinion. This is just what I've gained from my experiences because sometimes it's helpful to get an insider's point-of-view. I've really like hearing people's thoughts, opinions and experiences! It's a difficult topic. Keep on!

[FreshWaterMermaid]

Case-in-point: it's a vicious cycle. We all love to see animals in the wild, but since they are in captivity and have great healthcare, it is what it is.

The only problem, for me, is it's not great healthcare. Sure there are vets on call and such in case of emergencies but really the healthcare is that of "treat the symptoms" instead of the cause.
I just can't see how their lifespan is so diminished in captivity.

Have their been studies on lifespan in parks vs aquariums? That would be interesting if there was a difference.
I dunno.... perhaps I'm just rambling. Still like hearing everyone's input.


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[Mermaid Linda Stephanie]

The only problem, for me, is it's not great healthcare. Sure there are vets on call and such in case of emergencies but really the healthcare is that of "treat the symptoms" instead of the cause.

Just wondering where you got that information from? I've not heard that.


Have their been studies on lifespan in parks vs aquariums? That would be interesting if there was a difference.


Do you mean AZA accredited facilities vs. non AZA facilities? Marine Mammal parks can be AZA accredited and have established regulations on the treatment of their animals. Aquariums mostly contain teleosts, elasmobranchs, echinoderms, hydroids, etc. and can also be AZA (or not AZA) accredited. I've not ever heard that they live less in captivity. We were not AZA accredited, yet had a dolphin that was 56 years old when it finally left from old age and a ray that is nearly 20 years old. And they don't just treat symptoms. Every morning for the marine mammals, there are required "DPE's" (Daily Physical Examinations). Literally, every inch of the animal's body is analyzed and inspected for any new scratches or rashes and catching any behavioral cues that could be cause for concern. Everyday, these DPE results get sent to the on-site vet for analysis and data entry. They compare the results for the day with that animal's average. There are regular mucous tests, urine tests and blood tests to make sure everything is on track and regular. This is better than most people ever get. You always hear when people get sick that "if they had just got tested and seen it sooner..." Well, they see things as early as possible and even before that. And that is just the beginning. The animals are government property; if anything happens due to negligence, the facility can be in major trouble. This is in the US. I have friends that work with marine mammals and elasmobranchs in Canada, Turkey, Mexico and the Netherlands and their standard of care is just as high. I heard of some sketchy stuff that happened in Mexico, but nothing that deliberately hurts or neglects animals. Mostly, everything is politics. SO MANY POLITICS!

I'm not condoning the capture of marine mammals into captivity, but I've had the experience of what day-to-day treatment and care is like. Again, touchy subject, but I like hearing people thoughts and experiences.

[FreshWaterMermaid]

Well that's good to hear! Thanks for informing me. Sounds like you're at a good place. I hope all places are as good as that.
Makes sense being watched by the government they'd wanna have a good rap.
Sounds expensive too.

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[AptaMer]

When I was a kid I dreamed about Marine Land in Toronto. I went there and it was amazing to me to see whales up close. They were like mythological creatures suddenly made real. But then I became an adult and learned all of these things.



But in the end, it is a business. The park, animals and staff depend on the admission and interactions. While it sounds good and great to stop supporting this, I believe losing that business will, in turn, hurt the animals, not help them. While they get the very best care, if there is not any means to provide this care, corners would have to be cut.

Hi AniaR, What Linda Stephanie said is true, or at least I think you can see it happening at Marineland here in Ontario.

I was talking to a lady who retired a few years ago from running a company that put on tours to Niagara Falls, who knows the whole area. She said the bad news stories about Marineland were probably because the place is struggling to stay in business. She said Marineland, along with so many other attractions in the area, depended heavily on the influx of visitors from the Uniter States, and when the economy got really bad in 2008 and people were losing their homes and jobs and stuff like that, she saw tourism in the area drop off a cliff. She said she expects several of the tourist attractions to eaither close or be dramatically reduced in size unless the US economy comes back. She also said the new in the US media about the economy recovering, etc. are only partly true, she said people aren't getting their jobs back very fast in places that matter for Niagara Falls tourism, like New York, Ohio and Michigan, and even when they do, so many have lost their homes, they'll be spending some time recovering from that rather than going on trips.

I think Marineland must have been a very different place when you went years ago (before 2008?)

In the summer I took a bunch of students to Marineland and was kind of sad. The whole place has a kind of pall hanging over it. I had seen a video of the show from years ago, and they had lots of trainers, the show was really exciting, in the video those people took, the place looked siny and clean and bright. When I was there last summer with the students, many of the buildings were dingy, looked like they needed paint and maintenance, the show only had 2 trainers, had only as few dolphins and a couple of seals- and there was a whole area with signs up about a future expansion to the park where there were going to be fish attractions, but nothing was happening, it was just bare land with nothing being done.

I asked one of the staff about an Orca who had been splashing people in the old days, and she said the animal had been moved to another aquarium. The orcas they had left were just swimming listlessly in their tanks, and in fact, I hadn't really known much about Marineland before that, the condition of the orcas and belugas there made me start looking into it, and to talk to the person who used to run the travel business.

So I guess what Linda Stephanie says is true. Without the visitors, a for-profit park will just slowly run out of gas, sputter to a stop, and the animals will have to go elsewhere. In the case of Marineland, though, I'm not sure anything can stop it. It will need a huge upturn in the USA's economy, and the ability to survive until people who have work again have dealt with their first financial priorities and are ready to splurge on travel again. The people of the mer community wouldn't be enough to make a significant difference either way. My retired friend said she's not sure Marinland will survive at all, and I certainly had to wonder. The other thing I noticed at Marineland was the huge, ginormous, parking lot they have, and it was easily only 1/3 full, on a summer weekend. That may say it all.

[SeaGlass Siren]

Ha I wanted to go to marineland when I was a kid too. Never did though because it was kinda like "well why would I pay to go see them jump in hoops when I can watch them in te wild on tv for free?" (yeah I know parents pay for cable but it's free for me so..)

[Coradion]

Just remembered that some time back I visited another nonprofit aquarium- the Waikiki Aquarium in Honolulu. That was a great place! Not on the same scale as Monterey Bay or Aquarium of the Americas. They had way less displays, but they were excellent, and you could tell the care of the animals was top-notch.

The place was also science-based, and they were doing some excellent work in keeping corals and other hard-to-maintain animals healthy.

Also, the work they're doing to rescue monk seal pups and juveniles and try to return them to the population is soo important. The Hawaiian monk seal is one of the most endangered seals in the world, I think? Anyhow, I must say those monk seals are just adorable!

If you're in Honolulu, you couldn't do better than support them by taking time off from the beach and making the trek out to their location to take in the aquarium. They have some great vistas out over the sea from there too.


The Waikiki Aquarium in Honolulu is the one I work at. We have injured seals come in every other month or so which stay in our facility until we can check them out and treat them before returning them to the wild. If they can't be returned we either keep them or they go to a special research facility in California. Eventually some animals like KP-2 or Ho'ailona come back to us at the aquarium from the Californian facility.

[Coradion]

I actually agree that it does happen to almost every captive animal.
Dogs don't necessarily get much freedom, they don't get to see other dogs
whenever they want unless the live with them, cats are the only exception, since
most people let their cats outside and they get to interact. Birds are highly
contained, often not allowed to go anywhere. So yea, I'd say that does happen.

Doing repetative tricks isn't stimulating because you're no longer learning anything
new. If you put a 4 year old in a christmas play, they only learn the first time they
memorize the lyrics. Their first play is probably exciting, but after they've done it
15 times it becomes boring and repetative. These whales do the same shows over
300 times. Imagine if you had to do that? I'd be maddening!


When you repeat behaviors it's so the animal doesn't get frustrated. If you train the same behavior before starting new ones they have already been rewarded for something they've accomplished and we make sure they maintain that skill. A lot of the skills are needed because you can't have research unless certain behaviors are learned. Teaching our seals new tricks especially for Maka our 28 year old seal can be challenging. Even things that you'd think would be easy to learn can be hard to teach, to keep an animal from getting frustrated, having a fallback behavior so they can still be rewarded is a good way to work on skills over time. If he doesn't get it a new behavior he can do something he does know to be rewarded a different way. Also a behavior should never really be taken away from an animal. A lot of trainers believe that once an animal has something it should always be practiced. Like if they don't have a skill yet it's just not something they've developed, but if they do have it but aren't asked to show it it's like you're taking something away from them that they already have. Even some skills that have been deemed somewhat riskier like for our seals giving a kiss on the cheek are still grandfathered in to training protocols. To ask for that behavior now though you just have to be supervised and perform the skill outside of public hours.

[Coradion]

The only problem, for me, is it's not great healthcare. Sure there are vets on call and such in case of emergencies but really the healthcare is that of "treat the symptoms" instead of the cause.
I just can't see how their lifespan is so diminished in captivity.

Have their been studies on lifespan in parks vs aquariums? That would be interesting if there was a difference.
I dunno.... perhaps I'm just rambling. Still like hearing everyone's input.


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When it comes to healthcare for our monk seals it's better than mine. They get body exams I believe every day. They get weighed at least once a week. We keep lifetime records of their weights and other data so we can see if something is part of their annual trend or if it's abnormal. If there's even a hint of something wrong with our seals like a bit of possible blood in the stool a vet is called in or tests are run. If something is off on our water quality, like there's too much of a certain plankton species or microbe which we test for every week, we are required to send water samples to a lab EVERY day until the levels are below the guidelines.

Both of our seals would not be alive in the wild. Maka is close to if not past what his natural lifespan would be in the wild, and is still doing quite well. He would not receive the amount of food he gets in the wild. That's one of the biggest reasons monk seal populations are declining, they just don't have enough food available and are losing out to large fishes like Carangids. Ho'ailona would be dead. He is blind and would not be able to hunt.

[taylor21]

As the planning about Marine Park considered many times, but could not be result in positive side. As it is very difficult to arrange the required water for large sea animal as compared to zoo animal which required just food and nothing else.

[deepblue]

I think mixed feelings are natural- you love the sea and its creatures, you want to be around them. But you can tell, if you're a person who really looks, that when it comes to some of these animals, they should not be in captivity. Taking ceteceans from the sea means separating them from their families- orcas, belugas, they all have very strong social family structures- causing trauma, sticking an animal in an alien environment where he or she will never have their families or freedom again, where they will most likely lose their sonar because the space they're in is too small for animals that normally travel miles in a day.

Breeding in captivity often means difficult pregnancy, difficult birth, many losses, etc. And those animals who survive will be born into a life of, again, no freedom, no idea what it is to swim the open sea, they'll lose their sonar, they will be most likely separated from their families when they are sold, unless they're very lucky and not sold.

There has been a little learned about orcas, for instance, that we wouldn't have known without observing in captivity- such as gestation time. But most of what we know about them can't be learned from a captive animal. Science has to observe them in the wild to really know.

It's heart-breaking to watch footage of belugas or orcas taken forcibly from their families. If you can watch that, and not see and hear them crying out in fear, you really need to question your heart.

It's a no win situation, when you add in that it's also dangerous for humans to be keeping some of these animals.

This is a great article going around on orcas in captivity and the MANY injuries and deaths associated with them. It is meticulously researched and well written. (Warning: some very disturbing descriptions)

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/nature/The-Killer-in-the-Pool.html

And a new documentary about the deaths at Sea World. Blackfish is a name for Orcas, not commonly used, and it's the name of the documentary.

https://www.facebook.com/BlackfishFilm


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G93beiYiE74

I grew up in San Diego, went to Sea World all the time. I have very fond memories. But now, as an adult, no I won't go. And I won't take my daughter. I'll go to the Birch Aquarium instead.

[SeaSister]

I also have mixed feelings about marine parks and aquariums. Reading over the information presented here, it really does seem hard to justify keeping a marine mammal in an enclosure that doesn't even begin to accommodate the amount of space they would have in the wild, but there truly is something fascinating and inspiring (as in, inspiring to care about the world oceans) in getting to see these amazing cetaceans up close. I think I have to agree that there's a critical difference between parks, where the focus is on making money through the use of shows, and aquariums, where conservation is the main goal. I went to the Vancouver Aquarium the other day, and at the beluga exhibit (which used to house an orca whale), I couldn't quite fathom how they managed to get away with keeping an orca whale in that tank for so long. It seems so small! Even for the beluga whales it seems a little cramped, but I don't think that it's quite as bad as keeping killer whales there. Anyways, I don't claim to know enough about aquariums or parks to make an assertive argument regarding what the correct solution is (although, having significantly larger exhibits and keeping the animals in pods like in the wild seem like a good first step, at least to me).

However, I would like to point out something that seems to have been overlooked so far - whale-watching! I really believe that more effort should be made to promote natural tourism, not just for whales, but for all species. That way, the whales are not put on display behind a sheet of glass, but free to behave naturally and in their own environment. Besides, wouldn't it be even MORE inspiring to see a whale in it's own home rather than within a tank lined by camera-wielding visitors? That's what I believe, anyways. Now, of course, the issue with this is that whale-watching is only available in, yup, the ocean. So, those who live a couple hundred kilometers away from the nearest beach are out of luck. Parks, and certainly aquariums, are not about to disappear any time soon for this reason, but I still believe that those lucky enough to live close to the sea should make good use of it and see if they can catch a glimpse of that famous whale-tail sticking out of the water. Of course, there are other opportunities for wildlife observation as well - bear tours, dolphin-watching, even, as I was so lucky to experience, swimming with wild dolphins by simply snorkelling above and observing the wonder of a hundred spotted dolphins passing below me! I think that that beats out a dolphin encounter in an enclosed exhibit any day. What do you guys think?

[fawkes]

Biased opinion and stubborn mer coming through !!

Nothing is educational/conservatory about making animals perform tricks for a large audience on your terms.

The best kinda truth!
Short and sweet!

[Mermaid~Summer]

I can see the good and the bad but most of all I Love Fish and marine mammals! Especially my favorite marine mammal, the elusive Mermaid! :mermaid kiss:

[Ariadne]

Being from Georgia, I can't help but be proud of our aquarium and the care that is put into research and housing of the marine animals here. I have noticed that everyone is thrilled about the denial of the Beluga whales being transferred here from Russia, but after seeing how the whales are being kept, I have to wonder why everyone thinks they are better off where they are. I totally get that the point is to discourage further wild captures, but surely the aquarium would take better care of them than what they are receiving at the moment. I guess there is no perfect solution.

[Mermaid Veruliya]

I feel torn as well. I love the aquarium, I love visiting, it fascinated me as a kid and I want to get married in one!
And from my trip to seaworld, I recall all the dolphins that I touched had huge scar marks or chunks out of their fins, because it made me sad when we fed them. I do love that aquariums and research centers save a lot of animals. They give them second chances and rehabilitate them to try to get them back in the wild.
I don't believe in taking so many fish from an area that it ruins an ecosystem. I don't believe in forcing an animal to perform until it dies. I don't believe in cruelty and purposeful harming of an animal.
The dark side, I don't know much about other than people saying they're cruel. I mean, we train dogs and cats and birds and horses to perform, horses were once wild. Idk, I need more research as well. I like to think, that the animals are well treated by people who dream of these jobs working in the habitats. Instead of, like horse that are raced until They're legs break and they have to be sedated (happens all the time)