Asking pro-makers for tail advice

[AniaR]

So, I want to talk about something that has been taboo in the community for a while, and just get a dialog going. A few times when we've tried to talk about it, it's turned into drama because of emotions etc. I'd really like if we could try and have a discussion though because I think it's important.

Where do you stand on the appropriateness of asking pro-tail makers for tail making advice?

One the one end from seeing stuff in the community, there's a lot of people who feel they deserve to know info. On the other end, tail makers need to make a living. I have defended Raven before on the forums when people got iffy about what type of glue to use and through some shade her way (the ironic thing was, the glue wasn't even the right one). And I remember that thread brought up some really interesting points.

Personally, I see both points, but I lean toward the "do your own work" end. Firstly, I have seen the rude emails and messages Raven gets, I've heard some of the ones Jesse has gotten, and I personally get them even though I don't make tails. I think it's 100% appropriate to ask questions on the forum, to read the threads and comment on them, to compile stuff, but I've also seen people use Star's tutorials and try to claim stuff as their own (even her images).

Eric made a status today that I actually really agreed with:

12895

I can only imagine how many questions he gets. I like that he points out liability. I think it's a smart point. I wish more tail makers would say this kind of thing honestly.

There are many alternatives to asking a pro tail maker. You can do what most of the pros do and actually consult with the people who make the products (like the silicone) the websites have loads of tutorials. You can use all the information here. You can experiment yourself as many here have done. You can go on actual websites and forums dedicated to silicone use, to special effects, that sort of deal. You can be like Mike and actually take a class. There's loads of ways to get the info.

I think what gets me, is many of the emails I recieve are demanding, and the people have a false sense of entitlement.

Anyway, I'd really like to get a dialog going on this hot button issue in the community.

1. Do you think it's appropriate to ask a pro-tail makers questions? Why? Why not?

2. When is it/isn't it appropriate?

3. Where do you get info/do you think people can get info?

4. Other ideas?

[Jessica]

I'm actually surprised....I never even considered asking a tail maker questions about making a tail. I'm a small business owner (jewelry) and I've always responded to people asking for inside information by telling them "I can tell you, but I'd have to kill you" :) (A big smile or a wink goes well with this so people know you're joking!) I'm not against giving people tips on jewelry making, but I would never reveal my bead source because then I wouldn't be able to make a living.

I don't think it's appropriate in most situations to ask a tail maker questions. Exceptions: if you are a close friend or a student doing research for a project/paper (like Delphine's project)

If you bought a tail from the tail maker, then I think it's appropriate to ask questions if your tail needs to be repaired and you would rather do it yourself.

Information is everywhere online. Smooth on had tons of videos and their staff is amazing and is so willing to help you with any questions you have. I do recommend that you write your questions down and take notes so you don't forget anything. They are so helpful that I can't imagine why anyone would go anywhere else.

Lorelei's and Star's tutorials are amazing and helped me so much. They are really a "must read" for anyone making a tail.

[MermaidHyli]

I struggled with this for awhile when I first started making all my stuff. Shelly helped me with my neoprene/silicone but at the same time I tried to learn as much as I could from pictures (I was stalking mernetwork but didn't want to join until I had a tail which was 6 months before I actually joined) Even with the information I did get, I still made mistakes and decided to scrap my tail.
Then I got into the dragonskin tailmaking. It was costly and I didn't have all the information but let me tell you I spent weeks digging in mernetworks archives trying to be sure I had everything. But sadly I dropped my homemade silicone tail dream and went with Raven and started up my small business of mermaid style tops. Through research, talking with my supplier, watching thousands of youtube videos, and the help from a very close friend who knows fiberglass and airbrushing very well I was able to be where I am. Of course there were mistakes and figuring out the right products to get but that is really what it boils down to.

Do you have the time and money to go through trial and error to make your dream product?

I have tons of time since I graduated college and funds..well I married into money haha (not the reason I married him though ;p) And then my friend gave me some of the best advice that I decided to up until recently follow "Buy the better supplies the first time so you can have the better product" At first I had bought crappy caulk silicone and other supplies that ended up chipping or just not curing. So I took the plunge bought the better equipment and have been booming in business. Sure there are little tweaks but you won't really know until you try them.

After saying all that I stand behind "you can ask tailmakers but 1. be polite 2. DO YOUR RESEARCH FIRST and 3.expect not to get an answer"
I give little information when people ask about my process, there are some photos of it but of the most part I try not to tell someone,UNLESS they have shown me that they've used all their resources to research. If a 12 year old asks me on instagram I will direct her to this network if she persists then I know she is too lazy to do the work and wants a quick answer so of course I'm not going to tell her. Just my policy. Anyways hope this gets some more attention because I think it needs to be addressed. With how much information is out there ya know ON THE INTERNET (which barely even thrived when I was little, didnt get dial up till I was 10) you should be able to have the knowledge to at least attempt something before asking a professional tail maker.

[Miyu]

*high five* Thank you for bringing up this point, it's something that's an issue in any crafting where someone makes a living. It's definitely had an impact on me...

Trade secrets: NEVER ask for someone's secret to whatever it is that distinguishes their craft from others that are similar, and even if you can figure it own on your own through research and trial-and-error, ONLY use it on crafts for your personal use, don't go around marketing it, and give credit where credit is due.

Research: I do A LOT of research - lots and LOTS. I don't currently have a day job, my day is filled with crafting, researching everything I'm interested in, and cleaning the house. If your goal in asking a tailmaker is to save money through not having to do trial-and-error, well, get on google and look it up. I sometimes can't believe how many of my friends are... well, I'm sorry, but too lazy to look up things on google. I started using Let Me Google That For You because it got to the point where they weren't just asking for craft advice, but they'd just ask me about random things that could easily be googles in another tab in a few seconds. If you're not wanting to waste materials experimenting, do what Raina said and go look on forums specifically for using that material, and also on the manufacturer's website. Research can also mean digging through all the information and reviews of the particular tailmaker/whatever it is you're admiring.

On a related note: SEARCH first, ASK later. Don't just jump into a silicone forum and start asking questions. Google and the forum search are your friends. I will never ask a question without trying my darndest to research it thoroughly.

Pro tailmakers must get SO MANY questions, as mermaids are something that have always captivated us - stick a person in a mertail and people will be amazed, we've seen this with so many of the fabric tails just here on mernetwork. Most people asking questions are usually the type that are casually interested; as in, they're not planning on making a tail, ever, they just want to ask questions and have this awesome tailmaker/mermaid answer them. It's exhausting to go through emails and try to weed out who those people are, who's serious, and who is placing an order. It's even more exhausting to keep answering the same questions, after already having done research AND trial-and-error for it. I try not to ask questions of craftspeople unless I am planning on buying a tail from them. If they could learn to do whatever awesome thing it is they do, so can you. Or you can purchase from them.

Trial-and-error: Even if you get the info you're looking for, your first one is not going to be perfect. All crafts have some level of muscle memory; you have to do the same thing over and over to master it. I taught myself knitting back in 2005; while yes, I was knitting proficiently, it did not look as nice as my knitting now, since I've instilled the proper muscle memory (heck, I can do it in the dark and in my sleep - the bf's caught me knitting while nodding off a few times) and ALSO gotten to play around with the materials and technique. A craftsperson may not even know what the little tweaks they do the usual procedure are; they just habitually know through experience that this is how the materials work best in their hands. You're going to waste materials sooner or later (a messed up lace shawl that the yarn refuses to unravel from; a whole tail that falls apart or isn't swimmable, etc...), better to learn from small-scale mistakes in the beginning than have a large-scale mistake later.

There are plenty of people to ask who have successfully made several of their own tails in silicone and aren't planning on making any for others; if you must get information from an experienced tailmaker, ask them (politely, and after doing some research). I love that mernetwork has so many people making silicone tails for themselves who are willing to share their process and what they learned!

But, as Eric said (and I have to say I agree), the information all pro crafters have acquired through our own blood, sweat, and tears often is what puts food on our table and a roof over our heads. Sometimes the money isn't even very good. If it's so easy to research and play around with materials, why should someone else get the easy way out and start selling knock-off of our products after just asking a question (or a whole lot of them)?

Long story short; don't bug the pros, do your research, ask fellow hobbyists who have more experience, and get in there and play with the materials already. Or buy one made by a pro. I've seen too many great pro crafters put out of business from sharing their information and suddenly, their special "claim to fame" is everywhere, made by people who didn't want to put in the time and effort and wanted a quick buck. It's a pretty big incentive to watch just how much you share. Also, taking the time to learn things yourself shows dedication, and assures potential customers that you won't have outgrown a "phase" in a few months when they want to place their order (some of those great pro crafters that got put out of business? The people who sold copycats stopped making them shortly after the original went out of business because they moved on to something else, whereas the original had been a reliable, well-known business for years).

If you go to a restaurant and you love a dish, do you go home and look up the dish and learn how to make it yourself, adding your own flair, or do you pester the chef to give you his exact recipe while he's in the middle of dinner rush? Or you could just go back and purchase the dish again later... :P

[Echidna]

1. Do you think it's appropriate to ask a pro-tail makers questions? Why? Why not?
2. When is it/isn't it appropriate?
3. Where do you get info/do you think people can get info?
4. Other ideas?

Good you bring this up.

1. Unless I had a very special question to the tailmaker's work in particular, I wouldn't.
2. I'd consider it inappropriate if the tailmaker in question was reluctant to divulge too much info, or if he/she already stated they don't want to share their methods.
Prying further in such a case- or becoming sulky, demanding, and impolite because the tailmaker doesn't tell you all you want to know, goes in the "highly inappropriate" section.
The pro makers really have my commiseration, I can't imagine what they must get.
3. Firstly, this forum contains already a wealth of information and tutorials, freely given by people who don't sell their products;
secondly, as with every piece of art/manufacture, there is stuff that you really have to find out for yourself.
You might even discover something entirely new if you don't follow others' footsteps all the way!

4. As someone who has long admired the work of others before finally getting my stuff together and making my own tails,
I totally get it that people want to know how you achieved to make your product;
however I'm quite happy to read up the freely shared info (and thanks to all the great guys who helped me out with their great tips! :) ),
I wouldn't like to pry into every detail when the manufacturer seems reluctant to divulge the methods they use.

It's a business people, and businesses don't share their best secrets :)

This is a lovely community- one of the nicest I've ever seen-, but sadly it's not free of some things that usually come with an art/performance scene.
So I can imagine what you meant with "entitlement" :/

[AniaR]

Hyli you being up a point that always sticks with me. If people want to know the answer to their question so bad, why won't they research themselves? It's like people who ask me to sell them a tail because they want one so bad. If you want one so bad, why didn't you read the huge text saying I don't sell tails or make them? It drives me crazy

I feel like this is a field where people think it's okay to get all your trade secrets. Like if we were doctors, we wouldn't have people emailing us asking for tips on medical techniques because they'd like to one day become a doctor. Or when people ask me how to be a pro mermaid and expect a sentence answer. It's like, I wrote a whole book and I could have written two! it's not something I can explain through an email, and I've worked hard at it, and applied my education, so yeah I'd like to be paid for that.

Catluna you bring up another good point too. People might figure out something that hasn't been done before if they mess about themselves.

One of the things we were taught in my teaching program is the value of getting students to mess about and figure stuff out on their own.

[Aziara]

I've never written to a professional tailmaker myself, I always figured they'd be too busy to mess with a casual 'hey, how are you' email. The only reason I'd email a tailmaker is if I'm ready to order a tail--and the only questions I'll ask are pertaining to materials used if I'm unsure (most tailmakers do state what it's made of, so unnessesary for many makers), and what I can do to better care for my tail when I get it. If I want to ask a making question, I'll first search these forums, and only when I can't find an answer, I'll post a question. I really think some people suffer from over-entitlement, and expect to be spoon-fed information.

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