Open debate about the mertailor

[merpirate]

I am sure I will regret this as soon as I post this but hey I haven't been known for my brains very often.

Before I go on, Admins please if I have placed this in the wrong section, I am sorry and please move it to the right one


I have sat down and more than once seen a few things, and they are this



1. At some point in some ones post about a tail the name Mertailor come up, more often than not in a negative light. Even if the tail is not a Mertailor tail

2. New members seem to join and go about posting a review about a Mertailor tail and disappear,

3. Some members seem to be directly connected to the Mertailor and go about trying to defend the company (Or more often than not Eric himself) even if it takes the thread way of of subject.

4. People who make threads about a tail and have the subject hijacked into a Mertailor debate beg and plead to have this stop.


Now, I live in the Mertailor area roughly, I have met him and I have talked to a few people about him, several people have a poor opinion of him, some have a high. But either seems devote in that feeling and want to debate why they feel this way. SO why not have this debate, in case people do not know what a debate is here are the basics as stated by Wikipedia


Debate or debating is a formal method of interactive and representational argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument). Debate is a broader form of argument than logical argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_argument), which only examines consistency from axiom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom), and factual argument, which only examines what is or isn't the case or rhetoric which is a technique of persuasion. Though logical consistency, factual accuracy and some degree of emotional appeal to the audience are important elements of the art of persuasion, in debating, one side often prevails over the other side by presenting a superior "context" and/or framework of the issue, which is far more subtle and strategic.
In a formal debating contest, there are rules for people to discuss and decide on differences, within a framework defining how they will interact. Informal debate is a common occurrence, the quality and depth of a debate improves with knowledge and skill of its participants as debaters. Deliberative bodies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deliberative_body) such as parliaments, legislative assemblies, and meetings of all sorts engage in debates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_(parliamentary_procedure)). The outcome of a debate may be decided by audience vote, by judges, or by some combination of the two. (Of course, this implies that facts are based on consensus, which is not factual.) Formal debates between candidates for elected office, such as the leaders debates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaders_debate) and the U.S. presidential election debates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._presidential_election_debates), are common in democracies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy).
The major goal of the study of debate as a method or art (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skill) is to develop one's ability to play from either position with equal ease.
Debates are sometime organized for purely competitive purposes, particularly at the US high-school level, but also in other English-speaking countries.

I will now attempt to lay some simple rules.


1. what ever side you are one, please respect what the other side says, you don't have to agree to be respectful

2. do not imply state or any any way call some one a liar unless you have proof, that everybody can see (IE a different post which we can all go look at else where,

3. no name calling, (Bully counts as name calling)

4. no insulting

5. if you have started debating here, please do not hijack some one else topic to make your point ( In other words try and keep all the drama here as best as we can)

6. to be apart of this debate you have to have either worked with the Mertailor yourself our bought something from him

I hope this works, to take some of the drama out of the other topics and lets people enjoy the Mernetwork as much as I do.
I personally will now state I don't care for Eric or the Mertailor my self but since I haven't bought anything from him or truly worked with him I will not be taking part in this debate much, but I will be watching to see if it helps






BEGIN!

[Mermaid Star]

I like this idea... at least admins can move posts here and keep the other posts on topic. A good idea... lets see if it works.

[MermanMatty]

I concur. I know some things I have said were out of line but it is very hard to have a mature and professional debate when both sides of said "debate" have personal investments/experiences in the past. No matter the situation anyone and EVERYONE will always put their personal opinion of a subject into the debate. If anyone, and I mean anyone wants to debate with me the subject of "The Mertailor" and any alleged accusations about him would be nice to hear so I can shed light on any gray areas some may have.

-Matt
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"2. New members seem to join and go about posting a review about a Mertailor tail and disappear,"

If it's not too much trouble could you please give me an example of who has done such things. (And on a side note, I thought this was an open forum to give reviews and opinions about experiences with tail makers and/or their products, so those people are not required to hang around and wait for replies, they are able to go as they please, correct?)

[Mermaid Star]

This is very true Matt. When people are passionate things can get very heated. It is hard sometimes to hold back strong feelings such as love or disdain. That and most of us are performers and are very outspoken and dramatic people to begin with. So, throw a bunch of us together and heads will butt. But I hope that we can all keep our selves under control. I know sometimes I can get upset and passionate. Sometimes I will write a book in a post and then at the end, I read it and then decide it would be best not to hit the reply button.

As for people who post a Mertailor review and disappear. The latest one I can think of was Alexandria LaNier (http://mernetwork.com/index/member.php?318-Alexandria-LaNier)‎. Sorry I had to copy and paste the name. It was just easier that way. She disappeared quite quickly after posting. I think, within a day, she was gone. Normally no big deal. You are right. This forum is meant as a safe place to review and discuss things involving the mer community. In this particular instance, the poster was very agitated and aggressive toward the community almost immediately. So it left a bad taste in people's mouths for a poster to come in for a day or 2 , become aggressive and then leave. In the past, before I was part of the Yuku forum, there were problems with people posting under multiple false accounts. (again before I was part of the forum but this has been documented through more senior members and admins of the old site.) This activity of posting, becoming aggressive and then leaving with in a few days makes other members suspicious of this kind of activity occurring again. Which, I think, is why it was posted in this topic. I could be wrong, but that is why I think it was brought up.

(The problem is not solely in the review Mertailor section to my knowledge but quite possibly site wide. I think people want posters to become part of the community and be active with in it. To support and share and learn as most members do. It isn't against the rules to post and run. It just hurts, I guess, when people flame or stir up drama and run. This is just my feeling on the subject and not to be taken as absolute.)

[MermanMatty]

Ok everything you said there Star was just amazing! I don't know you but if that is how you truly think and feel I agree with you 100%! I usually am very even tempered but every once and a blue moon I fall out of place, just as everyone does as you said. :) I just felt as if a majority of negative comments on this forum were/are directed specifically at The Mertailor as a company or Eric as a person. I would really just rather people critique the tails and not the person making the tail. Everyone has their ups and downs. And some times I want to say but dont "If you know so much about making tails and know EXACTLY what to do to make it perfect why don't you do it yourself." But that would just be rude and completely out of line, or I feel it would be taken that way or worse. I just wish people weren't so judgmental over a dream coming true, I wish they could just accept the hard work and just go swim in their new tail. It's a good fun way to get in shape :) I love it!

[Mermaid Star]

I understand that feeling and completely see your point, Matt. A lot of people have their emotions invested in this. This is their dream after all. :) If people get hurt, it is hard to put that aside. I know I have feelings about the whole thing. I have had friends that were hurt, I was even a little hurt. But, I try to put my feelings aside for things like this. It is hard, I am human after all, but I try.

I think I know why people discuss and criticize Eric as a person but it is hard to put down in print. It is so much easier to talk in person because the inflection in your voice and it's intention is apparent where as when I type it just come out wrong. Gah! One day I will discuss it with you. :)

As for swimming in a tail is a good way to get in shape, I COMPLETELY agree! So much fun and I can lose 5 pounds in a day! Best exercise plan ever and I don't even realize that I am doing anything! So much fun. I froze my ass off in a spring this past weekend and didn't even care! So awesome! P.S. I would love to see your tail Matt. Is it a silicone model? What colors did you choose and do you have any pictures of it? :)

[blenny]

Well I think it's reasonable that any business no matter how great it is will get a few complaints. Eric makes a quality product. But that it is only half a business, customer service and customer is always right policy is a huge part also. Eric seems to be getting a lot of complaints on this end of his business. You might be able to get away with a little poor customer service here and there, but eventually u will anger the wrong and very influential person who will go out of their way to get the word out. These forums are a prime example of the internet's way of revenge for unhappy customers to do damage to a business. It's possible Eric has lost more than 100,000 dollars of profit from current and new prospective clients due to the negative press here. I've seen this happen all too many times to businesses due to Internet complaints. The reality here is I think Eric does some great work/art, but there really is no debate here for Eric. Either make sure your customers are always happy or be taken over by the competition. Fighting wars with people in forums about your product is not the mark of a longterm buisnessman. Take care of your customers and they will glady take care of you for years to come.

[AniaR]

I was originally writing this response for this thread: http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?301-Is-this-normal-for-the-mertailor-(I-really-would-appreciate-answers!!)/page3 that had turned into a bit of a flame fest, I decided it was still appropriate for this debate thread. Please realize it's context works better with the other thread but I see my name getting tossed around a lot and I don't like my name being synonymous with the girl who hates Eric, because that's not true. So, here's what I wrote and to be honest, I wont be replying. Im not actually interested in arguing or debating. What im saying here is truth and all proven with screencaps all ready. I am summing up my issue:

"I wasnt going to post in this, but I'd rather not see it turn into a bit flame fest. I appreciate people standing up for me in terms of what merfanatic aka Matty said, but that's done for now and I don't wish to get into a verbal match with Matty over our opinions of his boyfriend. We all ready know I dont like him and dont think very much of him, while Matty loves him, believes him to be talented, and thinks highly. No need for us to bash our heads trying to convince the other differently.

I will make this one statement that I think is very obvious to clarify my stance:
My issue with Eric, is no longer my tail. That ship has sailed I let that go no sense being upset about it- it wont change, I'm getting new ones, and I do think he tries harder sometimes. My issue is the treatment toward the community in all the ways we're seeing here and all the ways I've all ready screencapped and pointed out. Now, I was very happy to let things go and move on. But my deal with Eric was that he apologize to the community and stop this sort of behaviour and I would take my review and video down (imagine that- I didnt even ask for compensation, just a truthful apology!) I gave Eric the first opportunity ANYONE gave him to set things right and opened the door for moving on for everyone. When it was brought to my attention that not only was poor behaviour happening again but that he didn't even apologize in honesty when I was being VERY honest and taking a big step to be the bigger person in ending the dispute and moving on (Linda wrote the apology in an effort to help him smooth over all the issues and start over) then since he did not honour our bargain in truth I felt I had no obligation to honour mine and put the review and video back up. Why should I keep silent on my horrible treatment when a person I have extended the olive branch to can't respect me or the community? I get very upset when I see him being asked to represent the mer community he so much resents. He makes beautiful stunning amazing tails- some of the time. And that's okay. Everyone is human. There will be issues. Issues happen. It's the treatment of the community, censorship, disrespect, and intimidation that needs to stop.

And for the record, every. single. thing I have posted in this post you can physically see with your own eyes the screenshots of everything and all communication in the various threads about mertailor, before someone indicates I am lying. And also for the record, I am not angry in the terms that Melissa was when she was against mertailor. I am not interested in ruining his reputation or his company. I am interested in protecting myself and our community from the specific treatment I listed. That includes my right to engage in conversation of mertailor that may be critical. I have never stooped to the level of calling names, posting call outs on my FB, attacking his FB, getting *my* boyfriend to "set him straight", telling him he's worthless or nothing, trying to convince his friend's he's a bad person, heck I don't even say bad things about him to my fans! Because that's not me, that's not fair, and I'm *trying* to be somewhat of a professional mermaid and I dont see that behaviour as professional in the slightest. I'd be happy to tone it down, when we get an apology and this behaviour stops including unprofessional status updates that jab at members of this community.

**please note** while I do reply to nearly every topic written about mertailor, please notice that with over 600 posts to my name I reply to nearly every single thread on this whole entire forum on EVERY topic.

[Mermaid Star]

Blenny and Raina, I also very much agree with what you have said. People that know me, know where I stand on this. But since this is a debate, I am trying to see both sides.

[AniaR]

I'd like to give you an example of what I mean by professionalism:

Eric posted this comment tonight:
http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad266/thefineart/64.jpg
A user posted some bad comments in the comments section that weren't very good and quoted mernetwork so Eric started bashing mernetwork and the user said he didnt use dragonskin so I posted this reply since you do not have to have a page liked.
http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad266/thefineart/mereply.jpg
Despite the fact my comment was much more respectful and polite and even said something that supported what Eric said compared to the flamer comments he was receiving within 5 minutes he deleted my post and blocked me so I couldn't respond. That makes it look in his favour that mernetwork hates him when this is untrue. This is an example of the streisand effect where trying to censor your feedback results in actually making your situation worse.

If someone is so good at what they do- why do they need to keep saying it and reminding people how much better they are than them? Unprofessional. I do not see a single professional out there saying they are better than someone else, or picking apart other tail makers, or reminding people how great they are. This is a direct attempt to discredit the community and his competition as well. Poor decision.


edit: someone else added this comment which was VERY appropriate, I wonder how long before it's taken down? It's very respectful, Though I thought mine was too
http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad266/thefineart/66677.jpg

[Mermaid Jewel]

I don't passionately follow this debate though I've been reading through most of it. So I apologize if I bring something up that has already been mentioned or say something slightly incorrect (feel free to correct...correct, not bash).

I have no side. I have to say this now, I don't own a Mertailor tail, i've not had any bad experiences with Eric, and I have nothing against him. However, my side is this. I can see both sides. As an artist, I understand the utter possessiveness of my art (if you've ever looked at the caption in my photography on dA, it literally says "steal and I will bite your head off"). I also understand the issue against the deleting of comments, censorship, and indirect slander of Mernetwork.

What I don't get is this attack against Raina that she is 'the ultimate Mertailor hater.' Look, everyone involved, Raina is not the only one with issues against Mertailor. She has been provoked, angered, and definitely had her share of bad experiences, which we should all know is not going to produce a good relationship. But in all of the posts I've read (as a neutral party), she generally defends herself and her original statements. She rarely tries to slander back, nor does she become to the point of malice. Honestly, most of the reason why she has to respond so much to Mertailor threads is to defend herself.

I'm not defending nor attacking Mertailor, I just wish to point out that putting the face of anti-Mertailor on Raina is unjust and makes both her situation and the other side's worse. Listen, read, and stop coming into the debate with the bias that Raina is out to kill Mertailor. Because honestly, if you read her points, she's not.

[Dr. SeaWeed]

I try to stay out of this whole thing usually, even though I do own a mertailor tail....
however I cant help myself but comment on something from that FB status....

"Today, our silicone mermaid tails are made from professional molds using skin safe materials, Dragon Skin Silicone. It's very strange how we sit back and watch others accomplish what we've already accomplished. "

are we to believe that no one before him has ever used a mold to make a mermaid tail?

[AniaR]

are we to believe that no one before him has ever used a mold to make a mermaid tail?
Cuz Thom never used a mold or high quality silicone in 1984... *rolls eyes*

And Jewel, thank you. I feel like everytime I try to let mertailor go he pulls me right back in and it's exhausting. My initial peace offer still stands: when he apologizes to the community and stops this silliness I'd be happy to sit back and watch. Though, I will personally on a legal level be not tolerating anymore personal attacks. I think this behaviour toward me simply stems from his paranoia about how Mermaid Melissa was on mer yukyu and his other online accounts and he expects me to be the same.

[Mermaid Star]

I try to stay out of this whole thing usually, even though I do own a mertailor tail....
however I cant help myself but comment on something from that FB status....

"Today, our silicone mermaid tails are made from professional molds using skin safe materials, Dragon Skin Silicone. "

Are we then, also to believe that, previously they were not skin safe materials since this post states "Today" rather than always. Just something I noticed.

[Mermaid Star]

I'd like to give you an example of what I mean by professionalism:

Eric posted this comment tonight:
http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad266/thefineart/64.jpg
A user posted some bad comments in the comments section that weren't very good and quoted mernetwork so Eric started bashing mernetwork and the user said he didnt use dragonskin so I posted this reply since you do not have to have a page liked.
http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad266/thefineart/mereply.jpg
Despite the fact my comment was much more respectful and polite and even said something that supported what Eric said compared to the flamer comments he was receiving within 5 minutes he deleted my post and blocked me so I couldn't respond. That makes it look in his favour that mernetwork hates him when this is untrue. This is an example of the streisand effect where trying to censor your feedback results in actually making your situation worse.

If someone is so good at what they do- why do they need to keep saying it and reminding people how much better they are than them? Unprofessional. I do not see a single professional out there saying they are better than someone else, or picking apart other tail makers, or reminding people how great they are. This is a direct attempt to discredit the community and his competition as well. Poor decision.


edit: someone else added this comment which was VERY appropriate, I wonder how long before it's taken down? It's very respectful, Though I thought mine was too
http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad266/thefineart/66677.jpg


~Shakes head~ Why must this be about who did what first? Yes, new tail makers are always coming up behind the old ones. Old tail makers are trying to stay in the lead. No one invented the fish tail. It evolved that way. Do we see nature getting pissed off that we are copying it? No. We are all copying a fish, we are all finding new ways while figuring out the processes of old.

We will all eventually fall to the newer, younger and Up and coming. We will speak of the days of old when we didn't have this or that to help us and we were to first to find that this particular product worked well. But that doesn't stop the newer tail makers form creating new ways that we had never thought of. It is just silly to think that no one in the world could have done it before you and that no one will do it after you. I just can't understand it.

[AniaR]

I dont see Hannah Fraser bitching about all the mermaids popping up. On the contrary, she went to mercon and celebrated with everyone and shared some wisdom :)

It's all ready been publicly proven by those involved that ERic learned much of what he knows for tail making through Thom Shouse, Foxmoon, and even his grandmother. And as I've stated several times (and shown actual dates on my FB page) mermaid tails have been around for OVER 100 years :) swimable ones, looking realistic too.

I find this quote to be quite appropriate:
"
"There are two kinds of people in the world: those who make excuses and those who get results. An excuse person will find any excuse for why a job was not done, and a results person will find any reason why it can be done. Be a creator, not a reactor."
~Alan Cohen~"

[Dr. SeaWeed]

I completely agree,

And as far as dragonskin silicone goes.... is it just me or didnt everyone notice it and start talking about its use for tails after Adam Martyn shared a link to the smoothon website?
funny how he thinks its something completely original that was his idea.

[Dr. SeaWeed]

and that was over 2 years ago.

[AniaR]

http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad266/thefineart/3.jpg

I am hoping this is a good new sign for moving on and less drama :) fins crossed- let's hope!

[MermanJesse]

Micheline, Firestone, Goodyear all produce and sell TIRES.

[Mermaid Star]

Jesse, Yes!

Raina, I have my fins crossed with you. I hope this really is a new start.