MERTAILOR STOLE MY DESIGN!!!HELP!!!!

[mermaid_runo]

So a while back (maybe a month or two ago) I entered a contest for a new tailmaker, Jazz Mergirl, and her company Purple Rainbow Tails. The contest rules said to create a design for a mermaid tail and submit it in a youtube video, along with why you want a tail and what you would use it for and that kind of stuff.... So I submitted my design (I lost). My design was of a tail based off of a chinese mandarinfish or a mandarin dragonet. I noted that the fluke would be a different shape (I included a picture of the fish- but I do not know what species it is), and that the fluke would have the same coloration as the mandarinfish had on its fluke. I also noted that the dorsal would get small or nonexistent where the knees bend. Contest ends, I lose... (bummer).... a month or so later, I see a mertailor facebook post with a picture of a tail he had been working on- my design! Except HE was taking credit for it! (The only differences were the colors- they were SLIGHTLY off). And by the sound of it he is thinking of permanently making it one of his designs to sell on his sight. I looked into it to see if it was a misunderstanding.... so on Merforum I asked something along the lines of "Interesting design...how did you come up with that?". Eric's (the mertailors)boyfriend Matt replied saying and I quote "It was a request from a customer and it was something we wanted to do in the past so it was perfect!"
Something they wanted to do in the past? How long ago did he steal my design exactly?!
I took down the video from facebook, but still have it as well as a little clay mermaid I worked on for months (it was my first attempt at the design)
The Mertailor Eric Durcharme is making $2,500 off of EACH tail he makes with MY design. And I neither get the credit for my work nor any part of the profit! And from what my research is showing, he has done this to many others before!
Eric if you are reading this, I would suggest contacting me and finding a way to work this out. I would rather not have to take any legal action against you, especially since it would be inconvenient for both of our schedules (we are both busy people), but I am prepared to do so if necessary. I would like to try to resolve this without further conflict, and I would advise that you contact me soon.

[MerEmma]

Do you mean the mandarin fish tail? I believe Christomer Starfish was the customer who purchased that tail? Do you mean this one? https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t1.0-9/10444561_593824774049271_3933209169039426988_n.jpg

Unfortunately if a tail is based off of a fish I feel like you have absolutely no possession over such design. Obviously I have not seen your video or pictures either, but anyone can order a tail based off a fish and Christomer's wife (I think? I don't know him at all) has a tail also based off a mandarinfish: https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t1.0-9/p417x417/1510607_586433231455092_4304812132918297989_n.jpg

[Seraphina Suds]

I'm almost positive Christomer requested that tail to be made. He seems to have a fondness for that sort of design. I feel like he's eventually going to have one from every tail maker.

And I agree with Emma, it's hard to lay claim to a design when it's based off a real fish.

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[MerEmma]

Something else too, where did he say he was going to offer that design up as a default option? I don't see that on his FB page anywhere.

[Mermaid Sirenia]

Although I can understand being upset of someone having the tail you created and wanted, we shouldn't automatically blame Eric just for having made a tail of the same fish, even if he has done such things before. Several people have requested mandarin fish tails in the past, and just because you designed a tail like that, doesn't mean they couldn't either. It might be your tail you never know, then again you can't blame someone for something you can't prove :)


~Mermaid Sirenia~

[Starfrit]

I can understand feeling upset about a design you were so passionate about, but... In all honesty? It's really hard to claim "Mine" on colors/markings of an existing fish, and the Mandarin fish has been really popular with lots of people of late who like more vibrant and colorfully-patterned tails-- At this point it would be like designing a pretty basic koi tail and then claiming theft when someone else makes another basic koi tail.

For example, I can think of at least three people here on this forum who've either made suggestions or actually drew out templates for tails with a Mandarin fish design in the past, well before you even joined the forum.

It does suck seeing a similar design to one you'd put time and love into in the hands of someone else, but the idea that Eric "stole" your design is a bit... far-fetched. Even if Eric has taken "inspiration" from other people's designs and color schemes in the past. There's simply no proof that he stole your design and it's really hard to claim theft on a design that occurs in nature anyway-- so, really, legal action isn't an option here. You don't have a strong enough case for any lawyer to really take it seriously, to be honest.

[Winged Mermaid]

Eric has been called out on stealing very specific designs before (I can provide links later if you like, on my phone right now). BUT I agree that you can't lay claim to a fish's design. Several mers have made mandarin fish tails, some were several years ago. Unless there were details that were very specific and totally unique to your design, you can't call that art theft when it was based off of a fish.

[AniaR]

christomer did design that, and it was his own version similar to his friend Caroline's tail. In this instance I dont believe eric stole the design. Maybe christomer did see it I can't say, but his activity online is pretty transparent.

[AniaR]

also legally you cant do anything, you cant copyright costumes or tails. My tail is 100% a ripoff of the splash tail. And I can do it, because there are no laws. So even if you do get a lawyer it is a waste of money.

[mermaid_runo]

The design I made was very specific....and as art it is automatically copyrighted. My grandpa is suggesting I patent it as well. I have never seen any tail with a design even resembling a mandarinfish....I even tried googling it and the only real tail that showed up is the Mertailor one. I have done my research, and technically he did violate my copyright. And I do not think ChristoMer tried to steal my design. Maybe he saw the video and liked the idea and requested a mandarinfish design? Idk. But Mertailor HAS stolen designs in the past, and it seems to me that if I am correct about ChristoMer, Eric is the one who stole the design.... either way Eric is the one who made the tail, which means he is the one who violated the copyright....

[shimmygoddess]

Was it a sketch you have online? sigh. :(


The design I made was very specific....and as art it is automatically copyrighted. My grandpa is suggesting I patent it as well. I have never seen any tail with a design even resembling a mandarinfish....I even tried googling it and the only real tail that showed up is the Mertailor one. I have done my research, and technically he did violate my copyright. And I do not think ChristoMer tried to steal my design. Maybe he saw the video and liked the idea and requested a mandarinfish design? Idk. But Mertailor HAS stolen designs in the past, and it seems to me that if I am correct about ChristoMer, Eric is the one who stole the design.... either way Eric is the one who made the tail, which means he is the one who violated the copyright....

[MerEmma]

I can think of several Mandarinfish tails. I know of one or two neoprene designs, MANY drawn designs have been posted on here, the FinFolk one of Christomer's friend (whoops, not wife, omg), now Christomer's, and I get the feeling there have been more neoprene tails like them.

If you search the forum with mandarin or mandarinfish I know you can find some threads. Sorry, but you don't really have a leg to stand on.

[Merman_Shawn]

Google is not always your friend for finding things. It's a great resource, but hardly completely comprehensive. You might have to do some actual digging to find the images you're looking for. Putting in a little grunt work might help you determine whether or not you actually have a case.

[AniaR]

You can't copyright a tail. Period.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[Mermaid Sirenia]

Yeah and you need to understand that's a type of fish, which means technically it wasn't your design, it was your inspiration. There are several tails I've seen inspired by a mandarin fish. Don't overreact to something if you don't have proof of anything specific that could be your tail design. And yes, Eric might have stolen things before but this is Christomer's, which means he probably put input and advice on the design, and I highly doubt he would steal yours


~Mermaid Sirenia~

[AniaR]

Its like copy writing leopard print lol doesn't work!

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[Starfrit]

The design I made was very specific....and as art it is automatically copyrighted.

Yes, the original art piece itself is copyrighted to the artist who drew it (in this case, you)-- HOWEVER, you have zero proof (or at least, have offered none) that Eric specifically stole your design, which is based off of a real life creature, and therefore any legal action you take would be laughed out of court anyway, but again... It Can we see the original concept design, if it's possible? I could understand the argument of "He stole every single aspect of my design including fluke and fin shape, exact layout of the markings, etc." but you have offered no proof of this, therefore I can only assume you're only upset about the general fish being used as inspiration.

You cannot draw a simple fish tail and go "This design is 100% copyrighted to me and nobody is allowed to use it ever"-- Unless you pay for an actual legal copyright, and even then that design needs to be part of a whole. Similar to how the character of Harry Potter is copyrighted; had J.K. Rowling created him on his own as a simple standalone character, there would be no copyright. However, as he is a part of a very large series of published works, he is covered under that copyright. A simple drawn tail design is not eligible enough for any legal copyright beyond the piece of paper it's on. Somebody could full well come along, take the design, alter it themselves or even just use it outright, and there is nothing that can be done legally (again, no proof that this was the case with either Christomer or Eric). Is it moral? The argument can be made that no, it isn't. But is it legal? It sucks, but absolutely.

And given that your copyright is only on that specific drawing of yours and nothing else, even if it did hold any legal water, there is nothing that can be done because Eric's tail was produced in an entirely different medium. If he had traced your design line-for-line in a 2D image and presented that as his completely, that would be theft (but still not enough for a court case.) Similar colors and patterns as a real life creature in an entirely different medium? No. Absolutely not.


My grandpa is suggesting I patent it as well.

Your grandpa doesn't understand how patenting works.

You cannot patent or copyright a living creature's design in any way that would restrict anyone else from using that design. There is nothing to even patent here, especially if it's something that you are completely unable to create and produce yourself (which, from the sounds of things, you're either too young or simply in no position to be able to do yourself), and even then, patenting the construction of the tail may not even be possible. Actually obtaining a patent on anything is complicated.


Maybe he saw the video and liked the idea and requested a mandarinfish design?

Highly, HIGHLY unlikely, sorry to say. Again, the Mandarin fish design has been a pretty popular one as of late, as Christomer already had ties to at least one person with a tail based off the same fish (plus, as other people who may know him better have added, he seems to have an affinity for that particular fish anyway). Heck, given the production time on a tail like this it's much more likely that Christomer already had his Mandarin fish design in discussion with Eric before you even made your video.


But Mertailor HAS stolen designs in the past, and it seems to me that if I am correct about ChristoMer, Eric is the one who stole the design....

He has stolen designs in the past, yes, but in fairness he hasn't done that in some time; and again, there is absolutely no proof that he stole your design. You haven't even shown us your tail design so nobody here can judge as to the similarity of his/Christomer's tail vs. your design. Do you really expect us to grab torches and pitchforks with zero proof?


either way Eric is the one who made the tail, which means he is the one who violated the copyright....

Given my explanations above: Eric has violated no copyright and at this point there is no further need to expand on that.

If you REALLY want to press your case here, you need to show us actual proof. Can you show us the actual design that you presented in your video to Jazz so we can at least compare? Because right now, this entire thread is utterly pointless.

[AniaR]

Proof or not I assure you all you can't under any circumstance copyright a mermaid tail. If you could Eric would of. We researched the hell out of this and there are threads dating back to meryuku and I got quotes from american and Canadian lawyers. I guarantee you without a doubt even if he or someone else did rip her off and there was proof copyright law does not apply. When I get home I'll post official links . it be like someone trying to copyright jeans or leopard print. It isn't debatable. You learn it in fashion school and art school.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[Starfrit]

Also, quick forum search has pulled up these other Mandarin fish tail designs:

One Mandarin concept design by Fifi. (http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?7806-If-my-tail-was-a-Finfolk-Tail&p=123274&viewfull=1#post123274)

Photo of a FinFolk Mandarin tail (http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?7806-If-my-tail-was-a-Finfolk-Tail&p=123305&viewfull=1#post123305) (that I think was already linked here somewhere?)

Mandarin concept design by Cheshkitten (http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?3494-Show-us-your-tail-designs!&p=83535&viewfull=1#post83535).

Mandarin concept design by Mermiah (http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?3494-Show-us-your-tail-designs!&p=119893&viewfull=1#post119893).

Includes link to a Mandarin concept design drawn by Koral in 2012. (http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?3491-Tail-Designs-public-tail-base-amp-weekly-designs-by-Koral&p=47255&viewfull=1#post47255)

All beautiful tails, same source of inspiration just like Eric/Christomer's, yet they all look different and none of them are ripoffs. Unless you seem to think that these are examples of theft somehow as well?


::EDIT::


Proof or not I assure you all you can't under any circumstance copyright a mermaid tail. If you could Eric would of. We researched the hell out of this and there are threads dating back to meryuku and I got quotes from american and Canadian lawyers. I guarantee you without a doubt even if he or someone else did rip her off and there was proof copyright law does not apply. When I get home I'll post official links . it be like someone trying to copyright jeans or leopard print. It isn't debatable. You learn it in fashion school and art school.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

Thank you, Raina! Even if Eric did rip off Runo's design-- which I still think is incredibly unlikely-- it would be more of an issue of artistic morality, which is more a subjective issue, as opposed to law. There isn't a court in the world who would take on a case like this.

[Nicoseamus]

While you may feel cheated, It would be highly improbable that Eric stole your design specifically. The fact is: A mandarin fish is still a fish. It'd be like someone drawing a picture of a dolphin, and then saying that because they did it first, NO ONE ELSE EVER can draw another dolphin without their permission. It's natural that your design and Eric's would be similar, they draw inspiration from the SAME fish. You also mentioned something about the fluke. That's one of his flukes (I believe it's called leaf) that he's had for several years now. There are also plenty of Mandarin fish designs floating around( as Tieri has shown). Following your logic, what's stopping them from saying YOU copied THEM?

[Merman Dan]

Never mind all of the virtual mandarin-tailed mermaids...

https://slm-assets3.secondlife.com/assets/6725290/lightbox/2.2.jpg

[Atlantis]

Hi there, I am ChristoMers PA, and I can tell you for a fact Chris ordered the tail to be similar to Caroline's (Mermaid Aquanet's) Finfolks tail. In this case, I think Mertalor is innocent

[AniaR]

people tend to get confused on this issue because characters can be trademarked. in which case their costume is an extension of their character. but even then, cases aren't won. Disney is known for going after people but really what they do is you cant have a business and call yourself ariel the little mermaid unless you pay the licensing fee and they'll let you because ariel is their character (and it confuses people thinking you're a branch of disney). However, you can make yourself a perfect ariel costume and just call yourself the mermaid and youre fine. but even in those cases where people directly rip them off, they are rarely won because the law is not in favour.


Look, I totally get yah, it sucks, there is community history. but I know christomer personally. he went to Eric with his design idea. I am the one who is always ready to go at Eric with a pitch fork and Im telling yah, he's not in the wrong here

[Merman Dan]

It was a known fact that before NC Merfest last January I was getting a Finfolk tail in the pattern of a red drum/channel bass, the state fish of NC.
21654

Yet shortly after I mentioned that, this image was commissioned for the event:
http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2013/319/0/6/nc_merfest_t_shirt__and_poster_design_by_ivoryleop ard-d6u5jo0.jpg

Did I sue? Nahh... Hey, I'd like to see more red drum merfolk! I'm just glad the fish never sued me, for copying their signature spot. :)

[Meshy]

..(snip)..Disney is known for going after people but really what they do is you cant have a business and call yourself ariel the little mermaid unless you pay the licensing fee..(snip).. However, you can make yourself a perfect ariel costume and just call yourself the mermaid and youre fine..(snip)..

Look, I totally get yah, it sucks, there is community history. but I know christomer personally. he went to Eric with his design idea. I am the one who is always ready to go at Eric with a pitch fork and Im telling yah, he's not in the wrong here


This. I'm with Raina, it sucks, hurts even, but this is exactly why I didn't and won't share my dream tail design with anyone. That is until I get it. And a HUGE reason I didn't enter Jazz's contest. (Sorry Jazz, I love your tails, may even have you make one someday by my dream tail is mine until then.) I'm still sorry you feel slighted, but even my own dream tail can't be copyrighted. So I keep it to myself and that's really hard!

[Mermaid Mandi]

Sorry about what the mertailor is doing about stealing peoples designs yes I can see that your upset about your design and all but really to be honest I don't think their is nothing that you can do about Eric stealing your design yes you may contact him and he will answer you back saying that he never done such a thing but we all can't prove that he did. I suggest that every time you create or sketch a design that you pictured in your head make sure you put copyright on it and stating that it's your design or you can either go through the headache of lawyers and just fighting that way but I wouldn't I just would contact Eric or call him and let him know that the design was yours.

Sent from my HP 7 using Tapatalk

[Merman Arion]

Also, quick forum search has pulled up these other Mandarin fish tail designs:

One Mandarin concept design by Fifi. (http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?7806-If-my-tail-was-a-Finfolk-Tail&p=123274&viewfull=1#post123274)

Photo of a FinFolk Mandarin tail (http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?7806-If-my-tail-was-a-Finfolk-Tail&p=123305&viewfull=1#post123305) (that I think was already linked here somewhere?)

Mandarin concept design by Cheshkitten (http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?3494-Show-us-your-tail-designs!&p=83535&viewfull=1#post83535).

Mandarin concept design by Mermiah (http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?3494-Show-us-your-tail-designs!&p=119893&viewfull=1#post119893).

Includes link to a Mandarin concept design drawn by Koral in 2012. (http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?3491-Tail-Designs-public-tail-base-amp-weekly-designs-by-Koral&p=47255&viewfull=1#post47255)

All beautiful tails, same source of inspiration just like Eric/Christomer's, yet they all look different and none of them are ripoffs. Unless you seem to think that these are examples of theft somehow as well?

21662

I used to dislike the mandarin fish design because of my tastes but when it's done well, this could be a great tail. BEST DESIGN I HAVE SEEN OF IT :)

[-Annwyn-]

Also,Mermaid Volitania (when she was mermaiding) was the first I ever recall using the Mandarinfish design. (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=495417957187408&set=pb.299424003453472.-2207520000.1402566587.&type=3&theater)

[Starfrit]

21662

I used to dislike the mandarin fish design because of my tastes but when it's done well, this could be a great tail. BEST DESIGN I HAVE SEEN OF IT :)


I'm the same way, and I absolutely ADORE Koral's design! Hell, that whole thread of hers where she offers to make tail designs based on real fish is loaded with amazing designs. <3

[AniaR]

So I guess what we're saying here is:

that totally sucks. but it's likely more of a coincidence than someone stealing, and sadly you can't do anything legally.

My new tail coming out? Someone on the forum came up with a design super close to it. I messaged them on FB right away and explained the situation so they wouldnt be surprised when the tail comes out. It was a total fluke. Neither of us saw each other's designs but it's a neat idea and we both just came up with it

[Merman Dan]

"total fluke"... heh heh

[drucilla]

I know a lot of us has had the idea for a design based off of that fish. I myself sent one to raven 2yrs ago based off of that specific fish so I don't really think that he stole your design.

[merman_jari]

Bottom Line is You Cant Put A Claim On Fish That Has Been Swimmin Around A Lot Longer Than You Have. I Have Sketches Galore Inspired By Fish. I Understand That is Upsetting, but Darling Mer, Lets Be Realistic.

[Artisankatie]

Sorry for the late weigh in on the topic but I was randomly googling my mermaid self (the former Mermaid Volitania) and came across it.

I think I was the first to build and use a lionfish (hence the name Volitania) and later a mandarin dragonet tail when I was working as a mermaid, but I was definitely not the first person to imagine either :P

Am I super attached to both designs? Yup. Can't say I'm not a little defensive right now :P but they're pretty fish, of course somebody is going to want to make tails based on them :) My tails are certainly not the best-made ones out there, I know Mermaid Raven recently made a lionfish tail which is about a zillion times better than mine!

So welcome to the mandarinfish club, I guess, and enjoy having kids call you Nemo :P

Linx to pix:

http://meerkatie.deviantart.com/#/art/Mandarinfish-Mermaid-371778144?hf=1

http://tinyurl.com/lox45oo

http://www.seatails.org/sites/default/files/1887432.jpg

[maressa]

OP hasn't posted in almost a year, and her only two posts on mernetwork were on this page so I'm pretty sure she has given up...