"Ancient Fish" tail idea

[Grey Gambit]

So after spending hours looking up different tail designs, seeing how they functioned underwater, and such for hours (...I was up until 2 am last night, >.>) I started getting ideas for my own tail. Granted, it's kind of a long-shot idea for me and I'm not entirely certain how feasible a tail like it would be, but I really love the coelacanth fish (and gar) and pretty much all things primeval. There's a reason I spend so much time at my local museum, haha.

Here's the awesome as hell fish of inspiration.

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And here's the idea I sketched up for it. (I apologize for the crappy cell phone pic) My biggest problem is trying to decide if this would be able to be made as something other than silicone because, let's face it, I still need my first tail. I'm not too sure about fabric for it, but would neoprene work alright? Or am I being too ambitious for a first tail? >.>;

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[Mermaid Tula]

neoprene is a lot harder to sew than spandex. Most sewing machines don't like it very much from what research I've done.

[Grey Gambit]

That's what my mom's been telling me. But I also have some luck in that area, we're both pretty crafty and I get the added bonus of having an ex scuba instructor / dive shop owner helping me with things (aka, my awesome mother). So trying to get neoprene to work feels a little easier than trying to tackle it by myself.

[Cordelia]

There are some sewing neoprene tutorials around the forums. It isn't something that hasn't already been done, luckily. And painted neoprene is probably going to be your best bet for looking "realistic" as far as fabric tails go. :D

[Grey Gambit]

I actually really like the look of the painted neoprene tails I've seen so far, which is why I'm hoping this idea will work out on it.
Granted, it's probably a project I won't be able to start for a while, but at least that gives me time to design and get more research in.

[Azurin Luna]

I've been one of the lucky few that was able to sew my neoprene tail on my sewing machine, but thicker as 5mm total is very hard on my machine. I used a leatherneedle at first, but then switched to a thickjeans needle, which worked some what better. I also used a strong polyester yarn to sew it together. 3mm total worked pretty well on my machine after I fiddled a bit with the tension of the top yarn and going slowly. I didn't have to lube it, what others said they did to get the needle through, but I have had no such trouble with mine.

[Trident True]

My experience with sewing neoprene is the following. place the dial on a Stretch stitch, using a straight stitch will not work well, as Neoprene is a stretch material there wont be any give. use a neoprene needle. i used just normal cotton for mine i can't tell you the strength though as it was from my nans collection.


are you looking at a 360 suit to 2 halves?

this design is great, i can see this design in black, brown and a splash of olive green. these were the first colours that popped into my head when i saw the design. good luck :cool:

[Grey Gambit]

I think I'll be alright as far as sewing machines go; I've got a beast from the 1950's that can go through (if at a much slower pace) up to four layers of leather as smooth as butter. Only problem is I've got a more limited selection of stitches, like straight and zigzag. Plus I'm not bad at hand stitching.

Trident True: I'm still trying to figure out which way I'd want to sew this, so I'm not entirely sure yet. I'm debating adding weight pockets, depending on how buoyant it ends up being. Which, considering my thoughts of using neoprene, a few weights may not be such a bad idea. Haha, those are close to the colors I've been thinking of! I don't really like using true black on any project, so it'd be more of a blue-black base if I can find it, or adding a bit of a blue wash to a black base if I can't. But I'd really like to work some browns in, and maybe some green or blue in lighter tones.

[MermaidBrandie]

That would make a beautiful tail. Honestly I prefer the tradition fluke styles over the more paddle flukes but that would make for a beautiful tail.
I think it would look best done in silicone, but we all know silicone isn't a good option for a starter tail, is see if you can make your own monofin in the right shape out of lexan and then make it from either neoprene or spandex first. The paint it. It would look marvelous and you could always have a silicone one made in that style later. :)

[Grey Gambit]

I tend to like most of the fluke styles I've seen around, but I'm always a sucker for being one of the "odd ones", plus I feel like it wouldn't take to much effort to modify a monofin into the style I'd need for this one.
Maybe someday after I've worked out more design kinks (and more tail practice) I'll get myself a silicone version of it. If I haven't made up another design I feel would be better spent on for that much money. :P

[PearlieMae]

I think a thin neoprene would really suit this tail, and a Finis Rapid (if you can find one) would make a nice paddle fluke!

Have you considered going to an upholstery shop and have them sew it for you? My mom and grandmother were upholsterers and those machines can sew through granite! (well, not really, but you know what I mean!)

Good luck!

[Grey Gambit]

Haha, Pearlie, a Finis Rapid was exactly the monofin I've been eying for this project!

I hadn't thought about that, but I'm also in a small desert town so there isn't much option for shops that can pull out the big guns for sewing neoprene. Closest big town is about 2 hours away and right now I can't make it there. But I've got my old beastie machine, which I'll see if it'll work for this or not first before going elsewhere. On test pieces of course. I've been thinking 2mm neoprene?

Thanks!

[PearlieMae]

Go slow with your behemoth machine! I was thinking maybe a shoe repair shop, too...if you can find one!

[Grey Gambit]

I figure if I go slow, the machine I've got can already go through four layers of leather, neoprene should be similar if I keep to the thinner sizes. There might be a shoe repair shop around here, but I'd have to double check. Thanks for the idea!

[Yulia]

Aaaaaaaw, I love that fish, and that was also my first inspiration for a tail, can't wait to see this!

[Grey Gambit]

Thanks, Yulia! I hope I can get some more things done so I can share the progress with you guys.

I've been looking at my funds and it seems like I may end up doing a "test run" fabric version of it first, though it may end up being just to see how well the fluke idea will work out in the water. I'll focus on the extra fins later. It's pretty late, but I may run over to the store to see what kinds of lycra/spandex fabrics are in stock.. I need to grab food for tomorrow, anyway.

[Ashley]

Hey I really like that design and its even better because it suits you! I will show your creativeness! you can always cut the monofin to fit your shape you need but for what its made out of you can always make it out of a thin neoprene and you can follow a tutorial on youtube to make it. but to give it a more realistic look you can always do a silicone on top of the neoprene. i know its your first tail but I promise you will love it no matter what its made of. I also takes practice no matter what its made of too. I have a step by step instruction on how to do this if you would like. good luck on making your tail!

[Grey Gambit]

That's kind of what I was thinking of, as an added possibility, Ashley. To add silicone on top at some point. I think for money issues though, as well as getting a good pattern figured out, I'm going to make a version of it with fabric instead of neoprene, to see how the design works. I also found a tutorial on modifying a monofin, and with the way my design is, I don't think I'll have to do much cutting away at it, and only a little bit of adding onto the existing fin.

As far as finding said fabric in the small town I live in... Probably not. Just got back from the Walmart out here (there aren't any fabric shops) and they don't have any lycra/spandex. Looks like I'm going to have to check out a Joann's or something when I head up to the valley this weekend for the Scottish festival.

[Ashley]

You should try the internet there have been a lot of fabrics that are the spandex type and they have a scale pattern to them. They have a lot of colors too.

[Grey Gambit]

I may end up having to do that.
Now to see if I can't remember the name of the place I used to always order weird fabric from... *digs through bookmarks*

[Grey Gambit]

I'm not really having much luck finding fabric I like that I'd feel comfortable using as swimwear. :/

The only thing I've found that I kind of like (if more details were painted on) was this stuff: http://spandexworld.com/c3/catalog/product/12047
Do you guys have suggestions of fabric to use for the "trial run" version of my tail or should I just go with that? Or do something that's more of a solid color?

[Grey Gambit]

Sorry for posting again... >.>;

But at least you guys get to see some of the color ideas I've been having?
I'm not really sure if I'll go with either one, though. But I do like the way the blue/purple one looks.
I think at this point I'm going to see what fabric I can find for a trial run and then worry about neoprene later... Expenses sneak up on you and right now I can't do a whole lot.. >.>

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[Mermaid Amelia]

Wow they both look awesome! Love the shading and the fluke design.


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[Seatan]

No worries! Post as much as you like! People only read tail making threads if they want to. Otherwise they are easy to skip over. I love watching people's crafty visions become reality! My only sadness is when they die before the tail is finished. :)

as for fabrics, I agree neoprene is pricy. I got two sheets for $150ish bucks from foam order.com and now I'm not sure I will use it! Maybe I will make a neoprene tail anyway. Or I can make some cool scuba accessories. I dive with a Dewrag to keep my hair from catching in my mask (and also floating in a weird yellow pixie cut crown around my head!--maybe make one out of neoprene and decorate it?

I really like the deep blue color personally. But I love black/grey tails too--they are very unique in a bright sea of tails! If you are going fabric you can always add color with fabric paints. I like fabric tails with a sponge paint effect, which takes less time than hand painting scales.

[Grey Gambit]

Wow they both look awesome! Love the shading and the fluke design.

Thank you! The one on the left makes me think of betta fish, now that I look at it again. :P


No worries! Post as much as you like! People only read tail making threads if they want to. Otherwise they are easy to skip over. I love watching people's crafty visions become reality! My only sadness is when they die before the tail is finished. :)

as for fabrics, I agree neoprene is pricy. I got two sheets for $150ish bucks from foam order.com and now I'm not sure I will use it! Maybe I will make a neoprene tail anyway. Or I can make some cool scuba accessories. I dive with a Dewrag to keep my hair from catching in my mask (and also floating in a weird yellow pixie cut crown around my head!--maybe make one out of neoprene and decorate it?

I really like the deep blue color personally. But I love black/grey tails too--they are very unique in a bright sea of tails! If you are going fabric you can always add color with fabric paints. I like fabric tails with a sponge paint effect, which takes less time than hand painting scales.

It just feels kinda weird to make a few posts in a row when you're used to forums with that "no double posting" kind of rule.

Maybe cool scuba accessories? One of the things I want to do (especially if I'd have enough left over from buying neoprene for a tail) is to make a mer vest that will help me keep my body warm when swimming, but also match the tail. Neoprene is my first choice for a tail, however, unless I hear back from the places I sent in job apps to, a painted neoprene tail won't likely happen first. So a painted fabric tail of similar design will have to do. Plus then I can work out design kinks. And for a lot cheaper.

Yeah, I've noticed there's more brightly colored tails going around. I like them too, but I also like darker more muted colors. The thing I want to try and consider though, is visibility in the water (especially since I like swimming in lakes more than pools). I don't want to blend in too well and be involved in an accident somehow.

[Yulia]

:jawdrop:
I looooooove the color designs!
The colors on the second design look better to me, but the stripey texture and shading look better on the first one.

[Grey Gambit]

:jawdrop:
I looooooove the color designs!
The colors on the second design look better to me, but the stripey texture and shading look better on the first one.

I actually did the one on the right a few days ago, just messing around with colors and things.
the other I did later, but forgot to use more layers to make it easier to recolor... >.>; I'm probably going to mess around with more color and pattern ideas today. Hopefully I'll remember to use more layers this time. XD;

[PearlieMae]

It's your thread, you can post as much as you like!

I do like the blue one, too!

[Lostariel Telrunya]

I love the hint of maroon on the first one, but I also like the greyscale look (no pun intended) on the second. The second one looks super menacing! If you put the maroon from the first onto the fins and fluke of the second one, that would look so cool! I love the design, it's really unique. I am totally in love with the fluke! :)

[Grey Gambit]

Thanks guys. :)
I'm having so much trouble deciding on pattern and colors, though. Which definitely slows things down if you need to pick a base fabric to work on. >.>
....Especially because I keep making more things to choose from.

[Yulia]

I like the older ones better, since the colors transition smoother, but that's just a taste of preference.
Out of the new ones I like the second one, the first has great colors, but it's a bit to Zebra-y.

[Grey Gambit]

the first has great colors, but it's a bit to Zebra-y.

Zebra-y? The one on the far left? That one's based on the coelacanth's actual coloring. The other three was from experimenting with other fish patterns and colors.
You've got me a little confused as to what you mean.

[Mermaid Wesley]

Heehee the last one looks like iron man


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[Seatan]

Zebra-y? The one on the far left? That one's based on the coelacanth's actual coloring. The other three was from experimenting with other fish patterns and colors.
You've got me a little confused as to what you mean.

I think they mean that since there are a few dark bands running horizontally and we are all so used to seeing zebra print clothes, that the mind can kind of go there even though it isn't actual lines.

[Grey Gambit]

Heehee the last one looks like iron man

Haha, I knew there was a reason I liked that one! Not sure an arc generator accessory would be the best idea for being in the water, though. :P


I think they mean that since there are a few dark bands running horizontally and we are all so used to seeing zebra print clothes, that the mind can kind of go there even though it isn't actual lines.

I still only see koi fish and chevrons. xD
But thanks for clarifying.

[Mermaid Wesley]

Hey iron man tail is definitely cool too XD


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[Yulia]

Zebra-y? The one on the far left? That one's based on the coelacanth's actual coloring. The other three was from experimenting with other fish patterns and colors.
You've got me a little confused as to what you mean.
Yeah, I can see that it's based on the coelecanths real colors, and that's awesome, what I mean is that the pattern is that I think the markings looks to large in comparison to the size of the whole tail. (But that's just my opinion, I'm not meaning to criticize!)
I made an (kinda bad and messy) example of a smaller pattern:
http://utterberg.net/upload/img/201407171736-Coelecanth_design2.png

[Grey Gambit]

Yeah, I can see that it's based on the coelecanths real colors, and that's awesome, what I mean is that the pattern is that I think the markings looks to large in comparison to the size of the whole tail. (But that's just my opinion, I'm not meaning to criticize!)

Nah, I get what you mean. The pattern ended up being too big because the brush I used was a little wonky at smaller sizes for the pattern idea. I probably should have resized it afterward, but I didn't. I think if I did go with this pattern I'd do a lot more gradient work with a sponge or something similar, but smaller to match the fish better. May end up doing that if I go with one of the first color ideas I posted anyway, or kind of a mix. Depends on what kind of fabric I can find.

[Yulia]

The fins and fluke design is so awesome by itself that anything will look great. ;)

[Grey Gambit]

Kind of starting to get a little discouraged with this project because I can't seem to find a monofin I can afford that I can afford that's actually in stock... Or even decide on a fin model. I'm stuck with trying to choose between the Rapid and the Hydra at the moment. Or if I should try to make my own monofin. Do you guys have any suggestions?

[Yulia]

Maybe making an extended rapid/hydra?
There's a few tutorials on lexan monofins here, and they don't seem that expensive to make.

[Grey Gambit]

The biggest problem I'm having right now is finding them in stock online. At least nothing I can afford...
When I first started this project idea I was thinking about maybe modifying a Rapid, but I can't even find the fin for sale without it jumping up to a price I can't afford right now. (And I'm talking price range like I may as well get a different model with that kind of price, but can't because it's too pricey for me)

And I'm not sure I have all the tools needed to make my own... Which will make it cost more to make one...

[Yulia]

It's still possible to start with the fabric and have that painted before you have a monofin.

[Grey Gambit]

Not really... For a pattern that fits well I would need to have a monofin on hand first. Otherwise I could end up wasting materials and I can't afford to do that right now. :( ...Granted... I can barely afford anything right now... This whole thing may get put on hold unless I'm able to get another job...

[Grey Gambit]

It seems my mom has a jigsaw laying around, so it might actually be feasible to make a lexan monofin... Not really sure on the thickness that would be good. All I'm really finding that I can afford right now is an 18"x24"x0.093" piece (http://www.homedepot.com/p/LEXAN-24-in-x-18-in-Polycarbonate-Sheet-GE-07/202038064). I think that's about 2.4 mm thick? I'm not sure if that's thick enough, even by looking around the tutorials. I'm thinking about getting a second sheet to add a reinforcement layer, which would make parts of it about 4.7 mm thick. Hmm... maybe it's time to start drafting up ideas on paper to see if I could even work with a sheet that small.

[Grey Gambit]

Lexan adventure time, I guess. :P

So it's looking like the idea I have (so far) would work with the small sheet I found online. The things that have me wondering how well the shape will work out as a monofin are something I'm trying to figure out, especially because I can only afford a thinner sheet. Or two of the thin sheets.

This fin doesn't really have a lot of width to it, it's more long than wide – until the decorative fins get put on, then it widens out a little more.
The main idea I had was for the fin to follow the anatomy of the fish a little closer; thicker in the middle and upper edges, but kind of making a wedge in the middle down to the tip. The other idea (that's quickly scribbled in the corner) was to just make a slightly smaller shape of the fin that covers more area. Either way the second layer would get beveled, to try and make a smoother transition to the first layer and hopefully not snag materials once covered.

With it being more long than wide, I'm not sure what kind of propulsion I'd get, but I think it might be easier to make tighter turns. What do you guys think? I'm also not really sure where it would be best to put the feet placement on the fin, partially on, or fully on.

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[Mermaid Wesley]

Looks great! I would suggest putting your feet as low as you are comfortable so it's less likely to break


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[Grey Gambit]

I'm thinking that if it goes lower I don't want to put my feet all the way on, because most fins I've seen have at least the heel overhanging off, so the placement I use may end up being more like that.

[Seatan]

I think your propulsion should be okay. Not anywhere near as good as a full monofin, but somewhere in the range of SCUBA fins. AKA, it won't be difficult to swim. Big is not necesarily better in SCUBA fins--there are a ton of elements that apply. I would, however, consider making the widest point near the end and then using zipties or some other way to extend it to the shape you want. You will get much more from your fins if the widest part is at the end and there is no taper inward. I am no physicist, but simply based on my experiences diving and doing other water sports, I believe that inward taper will create drag.

[PearlieMae]

lessons I've learned with my Lexan monofin:

1. You want your feet completely on the Lexan

2. Keep your reinforcing layer simple. You aren't going to need to cut out those keyholes. And you really aren't going to need to bevel the edges. Rounding them with some sandpaper should be fine.

--

Your crucial stress point is going to be right at that widest point. If your foot pockets cross that area, your feet will alleviate some of that stress...otherwise you're looking to snap it like I did mine. :(

If you're using the 18x24 sheets, might as well just double them. :)

[Grey Gambit]

lessons I've learned with my Lexan monofin:

1. You want your feet completely on the Lexan

2. Keep your reinforcing layer simple. You aren't going to need to cut out those keyholes. And you really aren't going to need to bevel the edges. Rounding them with some sandpaper should be fine.

--

Your crucial stress point is going to be right at that widest point. If your foot pockets cross that area, your feet will alleviate some of that stress...otherwise you're looking to snap it like I did mine. :(

If you're using the 18x24 sheets, might as well just double them. :)

Those were some of the things I was wondering. It's nice to know that for lexan the feet should be all the way on it rather than slightly off. And that I can make things more simple. xD (I'm very detail oriented... and tend to go overboard sometimes) With doubling the sheets though, would it be better to glue them together first and then cut, or cut first and glue later? The 18x24 sheets were the only ones I could find that I can afford at the moment, even with doubling them up.

This was the other design idea I had, though I did draw it up before Seavanna or Pearlie posted (so that defined second layer is pretty much moot). I hope you guys kind of understand what I was saying in my notes. xD;
I brought out the width of the fin (to add a bit more stabilizing under the more decorative vinal outmost edge) and shortened the full length a little.
The problem I have with most fins that aren't silicone is that unless the monofin underneath matches close to the final shape of the fluke, it looks weird when it bends because you can see the end of the monofin as the fabric/neoprene is not thick enough to hide it. Especially when swimming. And that feels like it would add more drag when it doesn't match up.

I've been working on designing this fin with my mom, who's an ex-PADI instructor, so I realize this tail design isn't going to function the same as other fins, but it's not designed to. I also realize that not many people have gone around with a fin like this (if any?) so it's probably going to need more revising, which I'll need to do myself. But I can't do that unless I build one first and experiment with it in the water. Though I do appreciate all the comments and suggestions you guys have given me.

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[Seatan]

I've been working on designing this fin with my mom, who's an ex-PADI instructor, so I realize this tail design isn't going to function the same as other fins, but it's not designed to. I also realize that not many people have gone around with a fin like this (if any?) so it's probably going to need more revising, which I'll need to do myself. But I can't do that unless I build one first and experiment with it in the water. Though I do appreciate all the comments and suggestions you guys have given me.


It sounds like you think we are criticizing your design--no worries, we're not! We are just trying to help you along with the thought process, sharing our own ideas and experiences. No one is suggesting you don't make it or saying that if a fin isn't Competitor size then it's not worth having! We just want to make sure that you won't need to buy more sheets after something goes wrong that could have been prevented from, say, Pearlie Mae's experience with Lexan. :hug:

[Grey Gambit]

It sounds like you think we are criticizing your design--no worries, we're not! We are just trying to help you along with the thought process, sharing our own ideas and experiences. No one is suggesting you don't make it or saying that if a fin isn't Competitor size then it's not worth having! We just want to make sure that you won't need to buy more sheets after something goes wrong that could have been prevented from, say, Pearlie Mae's experience with Lexan. :hug:

Thanks for clarifying. I have a lot of social anxiety, especially when I show how I make things or am drawing... Telling me my way is wrong, not to make it. It's something I'm trying to not let it overthink what people are saying when they comment on whatever project I'm working on. So if I seem like I'm getting defensive, that's why. Not that I really mean to. OTL

I really do appreciate the help, though. And at least the small sheets are relatively cheap to re-buy if it breaks... Just gotta figure out how to temporarily attach foot pockets, or at least make them removable. All I've seen is to use glue.

[Mermaid Wesley]

Hmmm you could try bolts


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[Seatan]

Thanks for clarifying. I have a lot of social anxiety, especially when I show how I make things or am drawing... Telling me my way is wrong, not to make it. It's something I'm trying to not let it overthink what people are saying when they comment on whatever project I'm working on. So if I seem like I'm getting defensive, that's why. Not that I really mean to. OTL

I understand. :) Just always remember that when you actually post "What do you guys think?" on a tailmaking post you WILL get answers, LOL!

[PearlieMae]

I hope you don't think that im telling you how to do something or telling you not to do something. I'm just trying to help you with the benifit of my experience. This fin looks like it will work but you're gonna have to test it...my fin has changed radically since testing began in January. My most recent failure was just last week. Just keep saving your money for another sheet, because it just makes good sense. If you don't need another sheet, then ya got 20 bucks!

[Grey Gambit]

I'm not bugged by you guys trying to help me out, really. Just been having an off week, so I apologize if I got kind of rude.

I picked up a sheet of lexan a few days ago, and man is it sturdy for being so thin. It's also bigger than I thought it would be, haha. But at least now I can get some pattern making done more easily. Though I'm still trying to decide what I'm using for foot pockets... and if I only want to temporarily attach them or not. I don't want to cut anything out before I figure out where my feet are going.

[Grey Gambit]

Ordered some finis zoomers and foot booties. Maybe now I can start getting this thing under some actual progress.

Edit: ...Of course, after ordering that stuff now I'm tempted to make a tail with a normal fluke as a first run, instead of experimenting with something different, because at least that way I can tell how it performs differently. At least I haven't gotten that far...

[Grey Gambit]

As much as I really like this tail idea, I think I'm going to put it on hold for a different tail shape for a first go at a tail.

[Mermaid Wesley]

That sounds like a fine plan. :)

[Grey Gambit]

I'm kind of limited in fluke specifics because I'm playing around with a tiny sheet of lexan, but this is the shape I think I'll end up going with instead. The one I wanted to make was bigger than the sheet I have would allow. But I think it should make for a decent fin? (Ignore the red marks on my feet... I've been sitting on the floor for a while, haha)

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The only thing I'm not sure about is if I could use some of the leftover scraps lined up against each other to help reinforce the foot area or not. I wouldn't have enough for a single piece to cover it, but I would if I combined the two sections that get cut away from the top half of the fin. It'd just need some trimming depending on how much area it would cover.. Do you guys think that would work or would the fact that it'd be two pieces side by side on top of the main piece be something that would cause issues down the road since it wouldn't be a solid second piece on top of the first?

[MarkF]

How about a larger tail?

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[Grey Gambit]

For now this tail is on the back burner. I'm working on this one (http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?8731-Let-s-try-again-Tail-take-two) instead.