Vegetarian/Vegan Debate Thread [Archive]

Trade Winds

11-18-2014, 06:47 AM

More plants are killed being fed to animals raised for human consumption, so if one is truly concerned about plant rights, become vegan or fruititarian. That said, watch animals being slaughtered and then a plant harvest. Tell me which one looks like it is in more pain. Plants might feel pain, but humans can't see or hear it. Plants don't run from being harvested. They don't fight back. If you chop off part of a plant, it will grow back. Chop off an animal part, and in most cases it won't grow back.

I don't wanna sound like a jerk, but tell nearly any vegan plants have feelings as an argument against animal consumption and you will be laughed at or they will give up debating with you because some view people who can't tell the difference between animal pain and plant pain as lost causes. (Ok, see now you are vegetarian, whoops)

If you want to talk more, pm. I don't want to cause a scene on a thread.

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Vrindavana Starfish

11-18-2014, 01:56 PM

Vegetarian! No meat, fish, or eggs. It's a personal choice as well as part of my spiritual path (I'm Hindu, most would know me as a Hare Krishna.) I cook and bake vegan all the time, but I am not vegan. I also don't preach about my diet or tell people what they should do. It was a long, hard road to get here, and full of many failures. I have compassion for all creatures, including humans who are ignoring their compassionate nature. If people ask me sincerely about my diet or reasonings, I will answer to the degree I feel comfortable, as I have zero interest in defending or debating my choice, and I would never impose my beliefs on another. Your diet is a very personal choice that you should make for reasons you can commit to, as well as your health. If people want recipe ideas, particularly gluten-free vegetarian/vegan, ask away! I'm happy to share!

deepblue

11-18-2014, 02:55 PM

Vegetarian. Was vegan for 20 years, but had to change my diet earlier this year for very complicated reasons which almost no one else on the planet will ever run into which involve an inability to take man-made B12 (or D, or any vitamin made from a fermentation process) and having trouble metabolizing B12 in general, and I am supposed to get a test for the genetic issue that causes this. I only eat eggs other than vegan food, though, and this was after six months of seriously complicated medical crap I won't even go into during which I had to eat things that made me feel like I was taking part in a horror movie (during which my B12 dropped 100 points). I don't eat dairy, and would not even if I wanted to, as I have a severe allergy to it. Was also vegetarian for many years prior to going vegan. Was within that vegan time also a raw foodist for awhile, and I never better than that. But I succumbed to the delightful tastes of so many cooked foods, and keep a large percentage of my diet raw because the enzymes truly make a huge diff for me, and there's a whole complicated story behind that, too. Whee, weird health stuff!

So vegetarian from 13 through 24, vegan from 24 through 44. Am still 44 and would rather be vegan, the natural hormones from eggs do a number on my hormones and always have. I'm ultra-sensitive to a lot of things, and yes, I do only buy the absolutely highest quality, most natural eggs, with no added hormones, etc., from hopefully the best treated chickens. I'm very careful about it, and in spite of being very very low income, it's a high priority. I can do without another shirt here or there, or without a tube of lipstick, if it means animals I'm taking the eggs from are a little happier.

Ps. Don't offer me advice on the B12 matter. :) I will go effing mad if one more well-intentioned person tries to tell me what I've spent over a year researching and ripping my identity apart over, not to mention the doctors and the tests and gaaah.

PhaylennMurúch

11-19-2014, 12:17 AM

as a disclaimer I'll say that I am a happy omnivore but I have a bit of a philosophical question here.

Say everyone in the world went vegan/fruititarian. What would happen to the current population of livestock? Farmers/ranchers would have no reason to breed them so pigs, chickens and cows would go extinct. The reason I ask is that the way these animals have been bred the past few hundred years, they have less than a 1% chance of surviving in what is left of the wild.

NixieOona

11-19-2014, 12:35 AM

The problem is not the fact of meat itself but the gross cruel overproduction of it. If every family would simply have there 3 pigs and one cow and lent to slaughtering themselves and feeding them the crops they grow only producing what they need there wouldn't be a problem. Its just the way meet and animal products are won today. I just can't stand the cruelty and gluttony of people today. The thing is if we suddenly had to kill our meat the way it is done by the factory lines today the majority of people would be vegan.

Meronica

11-19-2014, 12:48 AM

Phaylenn, as someone who has raised numerous kinds of livestock growing up, it may be better that these animals, which have been bred specifically for human consumption, quit being produced.

Two of my chickens are egg farm rescues, and every bird that I have owned from those "production breeds" has died of ovarian cancer because they have been bred to produce eggs until it kills them. Modern cows, pigs, etc. have all been genetically modified to overproduce as well.

Regardless, I find it highly unlikely that these domesticated species will ever truly go "extinct", as there will always be the hobby/show/pet breeders. The meat industry is certainly doing none of those species any favors by mass-producing them in factory farms.

deepblue

11-19-2014, 12:51 AM

Veg*ans have been asked that a million times. There are farm sanctuaries operating right now where livestock are fed and housed and allowed to live their lives out without ending in slaughter. For the sake of philosophy, if everyone stopped eating animals then the animals people have bred just to kill and eat would no longer exist at some point, except where people preserve a line of them.

Keeping a species around just to kill it so that it's around... it's circular logic. You're talking about species of animals that have been so far removed from what they once were because of humanity shaping and changing them for human consumption.

Also often asked for philo reasons: What if you were stranded on a desert island and there were no plants and only a bunny was there...? Apparently there are a lot of veg*ans getting stranded on desert islands.

This reminds me of the Steven the Vegan video... "What if a monkey made you a sandwich?"

http://youtu.be/h8Ezyx9VJ0c

But I'm not a fan of 'what if' questions that don't have a lot of basis in reality.

PhaylennMurúch

11-19-2014, 01:17 AM

I was just curious, I don't actually know any 'out' vegans IRL except for one who went straight into a murder rant and tried to give my kids PETA comic books. Which is when I ended the conversation. I'm of the opinion that ones eating habits are personal and not up to group vote. I'm not going to go around forcing a cheeseburger down anyones throat

deepblue

11-19-2014, 01:28 AM

You'll find most veg*ans who are informed of PETA's practices are not in any way a fan of them.

Not that I want to start a convo about PETA. GAHD NO. It's like asking 'what is goth' on a goth subculture forum. D:

PhaylennMurúch

11-19-2014, 02:23 AM

LMAO 'What is Goth'. that is an epic thing to watch on forums. I have the books 'What is Goth' and 'Paint it Black' by Voltaire, I consider myself a Darkling and married a Goth :)

Trade Winds

11-19-2014, 05:50 AM

Phaylynn, nothing would go extinct, because people won't instantly stop eating meat. As everyone makes the gradual transition to vegan, the supply/demand for farmed animals will decrease. No extinction. They will still exist peacefully as DOMESTICATED animals. It isn't like the world stops eating meat and suddenly millions of animals in factory farms are just left there with no one to attend them.

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Miyu

11-19-2014, 07:13 AM

LMAO I love that skit you posted, deepblue! :rotfl:

I was vegetarian for a while, then vegan, then raw vegan (oh gosh I loved that, I felt so good all the time and the food was delicious). In the past several years, I've kind of been forced to eat animal products again, as I don't have any disposable income to be eating an entirely different meal than everyone else. I do try to eat meatless when I can, but I live in a house where they think EVERY meal needs meat. I do try to eat paleo-ish and avoid all artificial foods/most processed food.

When I was a teenager, my little brother was in 4H and got assigned raising chickens as his project... Little did we know we'd have to fully "process" them. On top of that, they were standard "broiler chickens", which meant that they grew up WAY too fast and it was just horrible and I cried because of the conditions it created for them. Chickens are smart, too - when the day came to "process" them, they figured out was was going on and started attacking us every time we came in to get more. I am, however, grateful for the insight into how factory chickens are raised and processed, because so many people don't know where their food comes from... Plus, if I am ever in a situation where I need to dress an animal in order to survive, I could.

I do know I need to go see a good doctor before going back to a veg diet, if I ever do, because since I've been on paleo-ish I've noticed that apparently I'm lacking some nutrients that I wasn't getting without animal products (I have all sorts of imbalances). I do really miss being raw vegan, though, I had so much energy and my brain was clear and everything was generally better. I still crave all the gourmet raw food I used to make, but no way am I making that stuff in big enough batches to feed people who are used to gorging themselves on meat. Every time I make raw almond cheese, it just gets devoured - a tub doesn't last a weekend, which is a compliment in a house full of omnivores. I do continue to buy a lot of the things I bought in bulk when I was raw vegan, just now I eat them straight as they are instead of taking the time to treat myself to creating a gourmet dish (I just eat pumpkin seeds and cacao nibs straight from the bag instead of whipping up a desert).

I don't agree with PETA's practices and ethics. I used to be supportive of them, but then they did that whole "sea kittens" campaign, and I just kind of lost respect for them.

At any rate, I won't go around forcing my eating habits on anyone else. Like I said, I do miss eating that way - it really is just going to take me being able to get my own place (no housemates) to be able to eat the way I'd like again.

Vrindavana Starfish

11-19-2014, 12:31 PM

When people ask me the desert island question.... First of all, if I find myself stranded in some post-apocolyptic or plane crash situation where there is no vegetarian food at all but tons of bunnies (what are the bunnies eating, btw? Other bunnies?), then it's time for me to find a tree to sit under, meditate and fast until I leave my body. And if it's an island where the bunnies are eating other bunnies, it's time to call it quits anyway. I pretty much live like a monk as much as possible while still being a part of society, so I'm not really interested in "survival at all costs" anymore.

Trade Winds

11-19-2014, 12:47 PM

What you should reply with is, when you live in a world with PLENTY of options, why do you still choose to support animal cruelty by eating animals?

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Vrindavana Starfish

11-19-2014, 01:02 PM

What you should reply with is, when you live in a world with PLENTY of options, why do you still choose to support animal cruelty by eating animals?

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Please don't tell me what I "should" do. I would not say something like that to you. I understand that your beliefs are incredibly important to you, and I do not challenge them, I fully respect them, and even agree with them. But please respect that other people's beliefs are just as important to them, and if they are to change them, they must make that choice of their own free will or it won't stick. You can't force them, and trying to do so is a disregard of their free will, and that is not compassionate. Compassion is not selective, it is given freely and that is what makes it powerful. It changes people.

Also, Seahorse Mystery, your avatar is probably the coolest Kelpie creature I've ever seen. :)
Here's how I would respond to your statement: As long as I have many options and the ability to choose what I eat, then I will not contribute to animal cruelty to the best of my ability by choosing to not eat meat.

This is one way to make it and keep it personal to you, express your opinion, without telling someone what you think they should do. If you live by your beliefs, and are nonjudgmental towards others but available when they have questions without making them feel attacked, they WILL respond favorably. It might take longer, but it will also last longer, and it won't turn people completely off to your ideas. I would love to see the whole world and everyone I know go vegetarian. But when you attack someone's lifestyle, they only hold on that much tighter. If you show them a better way by example, they will be open to adopting it.

Meronica

11-19-2014, 01:12 PM

I'm just going to say that I'm really happy to see so many mers with plant-based diets and I'm glad we all know who we are now! (:

And Vrindavana is spot on. I don't preach to anyone but by just existing I've made a lot of the people around me more conscious of what they are eating. It isn't worth wasting your time trying to actively convert people, they'll just get defensive.

AniaR

11-19-2014, 01:14 PM

I can't take synthetic b vitamins either. I eat eggs for the same reason

Trade Winds

11-19-2014, 05:50 PM

Uhhh I wasn't demanding you should say that. It was a 'oh hey, here's a response to the island question'

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Vrindavana Starfish

11-19-2014, 06:49 PM

Uhhh I wasn't demanding you should say that. It was a 'oh hey, here's a response to the island question'

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Cool. :) Your avatar is probably the most awesome kelpie creature I've ever seen, btw.

deepblue

12-01-2014, 10:27 PM

Why is it that anytime someone on any forum (that isn't veg in the first place) starts a thread on veg*anism, other people come in and say how they're not? It would be different if there was an interest, or even a someone who eats meatless much of the time, but doesn't claim the word vegetarian, or even someone who's omni but wants to learn about veg*anism for the knowledge or the heck of it, but is respectful of the space as a veg*an thread- why come in here just to say "I eat animals."?

I'm honestly perplexed by this common behavior, having seen it on dozens of boards since the inception of the Internet. There is an entire forum of mostly ominvores here, and a couple threads on eating fish and other animals of the sea, and this one thread which has evolved into a place to talk about veg*anism. It would be really cool if omnis could refrain from stepping in just to mention the animals they love to eat. Sometimes they'll say it's because they've been harassed by vegetarians, but if that's the case, take it out on the person who did it, please.

On to why I headed in here. My bf was a huge meat eater when we met, but shortly after we met decided to go mostly veg, and on the advice of his doctor, so I'm very happy to have another person to cook for. Right now I am looking for TRIED recipes for high protein, vegetarian and vegan breakfast foods. I can do searches myself, I just want to know if anyone here has things they like to eat for breakfast that are simple and easy. Right now I make him whole wheat pancakes and vegetarian sausages almost every morning, or breakfast burritos. Just want to expand the breakfast repertoire for him, and higher in protein will keep him full longer. I eat super light breakfasts or my stomach protests, and fruit and raw nuts won't hold him. He's not a fan of tofu scramble, but I might just need to improve my recipe for a more adventurous palate.

Which reminds, me I need to check No Meat Athlete (http://www.nomeatathlete.com/) for breakfast recipes, too.

I can't take synthetic b vitamins either. I eat eggs for the same reason

I have a feeling that a few of the people I know with chronic pain and no diagnoses after dozens of doctor appts would probably benefit from dropping man-made B vitamins and just see if it gets better. That was one of my worst symptoms, aside from hives and migraines- the pain. Everywhere. So. Much. Pain. In my joints, muscles, so bad, and some days so tender I could not stand to be touched. Until I stopped taking B12 and D made in labs.

Although, I realize you have a different situation entirely than I do. I just wonder how many people never figure out what I did.

BlueMermaid

12-02-2014, 08:45 AM

25734
25735

BlueMermaid

12-02-2014, 08:52 AM

I usually ignore it but it does irk me everytime someone says "but, bacon!" under a post about a pig. And then those same people go flippin nuts when they see a post on a dog in some sort of abusive situation.

Why is it that anytime someone on any forum (that isn't veg in the first place) starts a thread on veg*anism, other people come in and say how they're not? It would be different if there was an interest, or even a someone who eats meatless much of the time, but doesn't claim the word vegetarian, or even someone who's omni but wants to learn about veg*anism for the knowledge or the heck of it, but is respectful of the space as a veg*an thread- why come in here just to say "I eat animals."?

I'm honestly perplexed by this common behavior, having seen it on dozens of boards since the inception of the Internet. There is an entire forum of mostly ominvores here, and a couple threads on eating fish and other animals of the sea, and this one thread which has evolved into a place to talk about veg*anism. It would be really cool if omnis could refrain from stepping in just to mention the animals they love to eat. Sometimes they'll say it's because they've been harassed by vegetarians, but if that's the case, take it out on the person who did it, please.

On to why I headed in here. My bf was a huge meat eater when we met, but shortly after we met decided to go mostly veg, and on the advice of his doctor, so I'm very happy to have another person to cook for. Right now I am looking for TRIED recipes for high protein, vegetarian and vegan breakfast foods. I can do searches myself, I just want to know if anyone here has things they like to eat for breakfast that are simple and easy. Right now I make him whole wheat pancakes and vegetarian sausages almost every morning, or breakfast burritos. Just want to expand the breakfast repertoire for him, and higher in protein will keep him full longer. I eat super light breakfasts or my stomach protests, and fruit and raw nuts won't hold him. He's not a fan of tofu scramble, but I might just need to improve my recipe for a more adventurous palate.

Which reminds, me I need to check No Meat Athlete (http://www.nomeatathlete.com/) for breakfast recipes, too.

I have a feeling that a few of the people I know with chronic pain and no diagnoses after dozens of doctor appts would probably benefit from dropping man-made B vitamins and just see if it gets better. That was one of my worst symptoms, aside from hives and migraines- the pain. Everywhere. So. Much. Pain. In my joints, muscles, so bad, and some days so tender I could not stand to be touched. Until I stopped taking B12 and D made in labs.

Although, I realize you have a different situation entirely than I do. I just wonder how many people never figure out what I did.

Vrindavana Starfish

12-02-2014, 08:54 AM

Why is it that anytime someone on any forum (that isn't veg in the first place) starts a thread on veg*anism, other people come in and say how they're not? It would be different if there was an interest, or even a someone who eats meatless much of the time, but doesn't claim the word vegetarian, or even someone who's omni but wants to learn about veg*anism for the knowledge or the heck of it, but is respectful of the space as a veg*an thread- why come in here just to say "I eat animals."?

I'm honestly perplexed by this common behavior, having seen it on dozens of boards since the inception of the Internet. There is an entire forum of mostly ominvores here, and a couple threads on eating fish and other animals of the sea, and this one thread which has evolved into a place to talk about veg*anism. It would be really cool if omnis could refrain from stepping in just to mention the animals they love to eat. Sometimes they'll say it's because they've been harassed by vegetarians, but if that's the case, take it out on the person who did it, please.

Thanks for that. It's really annoying when that happens. And you know we were all just waiting for that one person to jump in....

I like tofu scramble because I can put different things in it every time and it's never the same. I go for lots of fresh veggies, salsa, beans, spices, whatever. But if he's not a fan of the scramble, does he like quinoa or oatmeal? If you cook quinoa in almond milk and add some kind of nut butter and fruit, it's delicious and full of protein. Same for oatmeal. It's very filling. Protein smoothies are good too, but those are lighter and I don't feel as full for as long. There's also quinoa flakes - the kind I get is rice and quinoa - that's cooked like oatmeal and to me, ends up tasting like Indian halva, but without the wheat.

Basically, the breakfasts that include some kind of grain will leave you feeling fuller, and they do have protein already, but you can add more with other foods.

Trade Winds

12-02-2014, 09:11 AM

Someone spoke up about all that...good. If I did I feel like I'd be thrown off here.

If you miss meat...just remember the pain and suffering of the animal killed for your moment of palette pleasure. No animal deserves to die just cuz you like how it tastes. Humane meat doesn't count. That is all a lie and 'feel good' marketing. If you really care about animals, go vegan. (After all, you can't say you love animals while you still eat, use, wear, and exploit them)

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Mermaid Jaffa

12-02-2014, 09:13 AM

You only live once, might as well enjoy all life including food.

And should've added a "NO OMNIVORES ALLOWED IN THIS THREAD" cos sooner or later, someone, ME, will mention something about omnivores.

Trade Winds

12-02-2014, 09:15 AM

I already enjoyed the taste of meat. Then I started considering the feelings of those needlessly slaughtered (like the 46 million turkeys this Thanksgiving), and started living compassionately.

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Miyu

12-02-2014, 09:35 AM

I rather enjoy having breakfast grains porridge (oatmeal with millet, quinoa, and chia, with whatever flavours I feel like). Lots of protein :) I want to try doing the "overnight oats" method, though, as I'm not fond of cooking oatmeal when I wake up (or 3 hours later, whenever I get around to eating).

I hope I'm not stepping on too many fins, I know I'm currently not veg*n, but I do greatly miss it and I do still try to eat mostly veg foods... Actually, I'm terrible at cooking anything that comes from an animal (Well, I can make scrambled eggs pretty well). I miss my tofu breakfast scrambles!

NixieOona

12-02-2014, 10:36 AM

Hey deepblue I love your response but I dont understand why you say the person who started this thread isn't veg? I started it and I've been vegan for 3 years now vegetarian for 5. Why did you think I wasn't ?

Echidna

12-02-2014, 12:02 PM

Except deepblue hasn't said that, but

other people come in and say how they're not as soon as there's a veg thread.

Emphasis on other people, as opposed to the thread starter.

Aziara

12-02-2014, 12:33 PM

I may not be vegan, but I'm with you guys on the anti-factory farm thing. The conditions are just terrible that those poor creature have to live and then die under. I do the best I can to only buy animal products produced by happy animals--for example, all my dairy and eggs come from my parents' farm. The chickens run loose in the huge backyard, and they are so content and healthy their feathers are iridescent (they also seem to enjoy hugs, lol), and the goats are basically spoiled pets too. I totally understand going without animal products if you can't be sure of the treatment of the animal involved.

NixieOona

12-02-2014, 12:49 PM

Echidna thanks I read that wrong sorry bad English :/ and azaria yes I agree with that ! I would love to have my own chickens just cause they're cuddly :p

Vrindavana Starfish

12-02-2014, 12:59 PM

I think the issue is that this thread was meant for people who are vegetarian, or vegan, or have a sincere interest in a plant-based lifestyle to the extent they can make it work for them for various reasons, and then someone comes tramping through yelling "I EAT MEAT!" like a troll. It was unnecessary, and we don't care. The only reason for that is to create conflict and is a cheesy way of getting attention. It's not unique, clever, or interesting.

I, personally, am not at all interested in bashing people's personal dietary choices or reasons, any more than I'm interested in defending my own. You will never find me going into a BBQ thread yelling "TOFU PUPS!" I'm of the opinion that if you feel you have to defend your choices, then there's some part of you that isn't convinced of your reasons and most likely you're looking for validation. I think it's a normal thing people go through, so is somewhat excusable, but to simply wander in and announce how much you like beef is just being another run-of-the-mill troll. If they followed it up with, "any tips for someone who loves the taste of meat to go vegetarian?" then it would have been a completely different matter altogether. But that's not what happened.

I know plenty of people who want to go full veg or vegan, but because of legitimate health complications, they can't do so. So they do what they can where they can. I think that's freaking awesome. We can't eliminate the suffering we cause to other living creatures, and beating ourselves up over it doesn't help. What helps is awareness and doing what you can to the best of your ability to avoid causing unnecessary suffering to others. Just think how things would change if everyone did that. Every little bit makes a difference to two creatures - the one who didn't become a meal, and the one who made the choice to avoid eating the first.

Mermaid Jaffa

12-03-2014, 03:58 AM

What do you think of the Caveman Diet? There is a version where you only eat basic fruits and vegs that hasn't been genetically altered or produced. And can only eat certain grains too. Has anyone tried it?

Trade Winds

12-03-2014, 06:12 AM

Vrindavana Starfish

12-03-2014, 06:28 PM

Jaffa, I don't have the meme for it, but if you look up the paleo diet's founder, he's nearly killed himself on his own diet. He looks like he's aged 50 years. Paleos still eat meat, supposed 'lean' meat and whatnot. Just google paleo diet founder and you can see how bad he looks now.

Veganism isn't about being healthy, it's about living compassionately and causing as little harm as possible. Some vegans are healthy, some eat nothing but vegan junk food, just like omnis. 'Plant based' should not be confused with vegan. If you're vegan you're doing it for the animals. Plant-based is just to be healthy, diet, etc.

Aziara, hens get distressed when people take their eggs. Hens eat the unfertilized eggs to regain the nutrients lost during making and laying the egg. The page below has more info. That's great the chickens are happy, but taking their eggs is still unhealthy for them.

http://www.theveganwoman.com/is-it-ethical-to-eat-eggs-from-home-grown-chickens/

I am not sure how your parents produce their dairy- I hope it isn't like the dairy industry where cows are raped and kept constantly pregnant, and have their calves taken away for veal, and then we steal their milk.

Honestly tho, it isn't hard to be vegan...just start caring about all animals and what they go thru. I used to be a typical carnist, eat all sorts of trash, saw the slaughterhouse videos and didn't care, but then I opened my eyes back in August and became vegan. It isn't expensive (my groceries are $50 a week usually) nor hard. And it can be totally healthy and transform you if you choose to eat right.

But sometimes I feel like my words fall on deaf ears, because no one wants to consider animals or give up the animal products that harming you and destroying the planet.

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You are dead on about vegan/vegetarian not automatically meaning healthy, and the eggs, and the fact that not eating meat does not have to be expensive. I can't tell you how many arguments I've had with people claiming they can't afford to eat vegetarian, when the truth is, they just don't want to put the effort into learning how. I lived in my car and still ate healthy veg/vegan.

Your words don't fall on deaf ears, but people have to decide that they're ready to listen, then they'll actually seek you out. Sometimes you have to trick them into listening to you by not saying anything! Think of a child— they don't want to hear what you have to say until you say, "I have a secret and I'm not going to tell you," and then all they can think about is getting that secret out of you, and they won't go away until they do. All people act like children on some level. It's amazing how much my adult classes acted just like my kindergarteners. Get people to ask YOU why they shouldn't eat meat, and you have their full attention.

Echidna

12-04-2014, 08:25 AM

Honestly tho, it isn't hard to be vegan...just start caring about all animals and what they go thru. I used to be a typical carnist, eat all sorts of trash, saw the slaughterhouse videos and didn't care, but then I opened my eyes back in August and became vegan.

Being vegetarian instead of full vegan is not always by choice.

It is seriously hard to get all nutrients from plants if you're allergic to many of them- nuts, fruits, soy and grains, for example.
Artificial vitamins and supplements do in some cases more harm than good and are no real alternative.

The only diet that harms no one, as I mentioned, is fruitarian.
Which I practiced for several years, and it ruined my teeth, to name just one thing.

I think most vegs have a deep desire to not harm the environment and its inhabitants and therefore chose their diet; but if you're harming yourself in the process, the point of it is moot.

I understand one can feel very fervently about the subject, and the whole planet.
But some of the mers on here have been vegs for years or even decades.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who would appreciate not being preached to.

Trade Winds

12-04-2014, 08:52 AM

Hard to preach when all one has to do is not read. And I will never, ever respect someone's 'choice' or 'right' to eat meat. Let the flame war begin.

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Aziara

12-04-2014, 09:18 AM

^So, are you saying that people who cannot be true vegan due to health constraints should do it anyway and be unhealthy? That seems a little harsh. And I must disagree with the whole 'chickens eat eggs for nutrients'. Egg eating is a bad habit. If one chicken in a flock starts eating eggs, the flock will NEVER have chicks, as they don't differentiate between fertilized and unfertilized. That doesn't seem like a good survival strategy. And as for your awful dairy comments--I said they were treated like spoiled pets. Do you know anyone who treats a poodle that way? I didn't think so.

Trade Winds

12-04-2014, 12:43 PM

Chickens: show me scientific evidence from a website, journal, etc that chickens do as you say. Regardless, they still eat their unfertilized eggs to regain nutrients lost during the egg laying process. Granted I am no chicken expert myself, but I can easily go and find info about chickens needing to eat their eggs to regain nutrients, as you saw.

Vegans with allergies: I asked on a Facebook group about vegans who also have allergies, and using allergies as an excuse. Here are some of their responses.

"I have gluten intolerance, am lactose intolerant, and I also can't have anything with acid in it. So yes it is very very hard for me but NOT impossible. You just have to do your homework, research, have enough compassion for the animals to get you through. Also the good feeling you get out of being vegan far out weighs anything else."

"I'm gluten intolerant and tomatoes and other high acidic stuff don't agree with me. My sons' have allergies. Using allergies is just an excuse. There is so much to eat as a vegan, are they thinking flesh is some kind of wonder "food"'

"I'm gluten intolerant and haven't touched wheat or barley in well more than a year. It is very doable. I've also been allergic to hops for decades, so I don't drink beer. I know at least one vegan who is allergic to soy, nuts and seeds. She doesn't eat any of them and is still doing just fine. She's been vegan much longer than I have. It should also be noted that eggs and dairy are very common allergens. I am highly allergic to egg yolks. People make these kinds of excuses for not going vegan and they are nothing more than excuses."

"Using allergies is just an excuse. It's hard for people to accept that what they've been taught and what they've been doing their whole lives is morally wrong and unjustified, so they will do anything to find a justification - like allergies. People may be allergic to some nuts, seeds, and grains, but nobody is allergic to vegetables and fruits. Or at least, *nobody is allergic to SO MANY vegetables/fruits that they simply can't be vegan.* That is bullshit. That is looking for an easy way out, just so you don't have to change your ways. It's lazy and it's pathetic, honestly. Find a better excuse. Oh wait, there isn't any valid excuse against veganism, especially in this day and age."

"Basically, as long as you can eat some leafy green vegetables like spinach and kale; some fruits and some veggies; and rice... then you're good. You can be vegan, and a very healthy vegan at that, with no deficiencies (as long as you monitor yourself and watch your B12 intake)!

And EVERYBODY can do at least that much. You don't need soy, nuts, and seeds. Nobody (as far as I know) is allergic to soy AND all nuts AND all seeds on top of that. For instance, hemp seed allergies are practically unheard of, and hemp seeds are very nutritious. People need to stop desperately searching for excuses, for an easy way out of the lifestyle they know deep down is the most ethical and environmentally friendly. I'm sick of the excuses. Who are these people trying to convince anyway: us, or themselves?"

The ONLY thing vegans can't get from an omni diet is B12. This is easily found in enriched nut/seed milks, nutritional yeast, etc

Echidna

12-04-2014, 12:55 PM

Let the flame war begin.

You'd have more luck starting one outside of this thread, as most people reading and posting here already are vegans/vegetarians.
Which means (in case you don't get that, as you keep going on and on about meat eating), that we don't eat meat. :rolleyes:

Trade Winds

12-04-2014, 01:10 PM

I already do that lol (elsewhere). I tend to expect people to get angry when I post stuff (which used to happen back in my more active days in various forums). Never hurts to post vegan info. Never know who will read and maybe even convert.

Also, Aziara, in regards to the "awful" dairy comments, that is FACT. Dairy cows are RAPED constantly, ie by artificial insemination. They're placed in a 'rape rack', have a hand stuck up their ass, another in their vagina. When they give birth, their babies will become veal if male (tied up in a tiny stall to suffer and be fed a nutrient deficient diet and killed after a few months), and if female they suffer the same fate as mom. Humans STEAL baby cows to kill/use them, all so we can use the mom's milk. After cows stop producing milk, they're killed. They often have infected udders, covered in feces, and so on and so forth. Enjoy the awful FACTS. I don't care if someone knows a dairy farm where cows are kept in a lovely field and all that bs (I know about that; I lived by one), it doesn't defeat the fact that this is what happens if you want dairy. Not to mention how BAD dairy is for humans.

http://saveourbones.com/osteoporosis-milk-myth/

BlueMermaid

12-04-2014, 01:36 PM

Being plant based is the healthiest diet on the planet. There are many, many people with food allergies, digestive issues, diabetes, etc. that have gotten better on a plant based diet and gotten off most or all of their medications.

I am currently following a meal plan called Happy Herbivore. It is plant based & oil free, with substitutions for people who can't eat soy, gluten, & nuts. There are options out there for everyone now, whatever the allergy is. I also discourage those I love from eating artificial colors and ingredients, sugar, white bread, preservatives, and all that other garbage they put into our food, as alot of allergies are due to those.

Plant based eating is good for humans, good for animals, and good for the planet. If you are thinking about it, just go vegetarian for one day a week for 2 months. Then, do 2 days a week for 2 months. Then 3 days a week. You will gradually get used to it, you won't feel deprived and you will soon see how easy it is. Keep going till you are up to 7 days a week. Then, do plant based / vegan the same way. Before you know it, you will be feeling better and it will become second nature. I used to alot of meat and cheese, & hated vegetables! I didn't eat a salad till I was 25, and it had to be drowned in cheese and dressing for me to tolerate it. But I was sick. I went looking on the internet to try and help my health issues. I learned all about a vegan diet and animal factory farms. It took me a while but now I am the opposite, meat disgusts me and I love vegetables! It helps that I am a huge animal lover so now when I see meat I see animal suffering. There are also so many meat free alternatives. For instance I loved tacos, so now I just make my own with soy burger!

Mermaid Jaffa

12-04-2014, 04:15 PM

I found out early in my teens, that was the time I tried going vegan, all fruit and vegetables, that my body cannot live without meat. I've always had a low iron count. I had problems with the vegan diet both in lack of vitamins and digestion. So telling me I suck because I rely on eating meat, with a healthy servings of fruit and veg. And its lame to assume one must be a vegan to be able to care about animals.

Trade Winds

12-04-2014, 04:28 PM

Mermaid Jaffa

12-04-2014, 04:33 PM

So I must suffer very badly before I am accustomed to the vegan diet? I nearly ended up in hospital if it weren't for my Mum who busted me and asked why I wasn't eating properly.

Nah uh. Not happening. And I'll stop posting here, reading about it again keeps reminding me of how bad of a state I was in.

BlueMermaid

12-04-2014, 05:13 PM

I had a low iron count when I was a meat eater but now I'm fine. I don't think it was vegan that got you sick but not eating enough food. If you ever want to give it another try, you can do it without getting sick.

Just think about this, where do elephants get their vitamins? Plants. Where do the cows that you eat get their vitamins? Plants. When a cow eats plants, they get everything they need. Then when you eat their body, you get the vitamins they got from the plants. Your not getting anything additional than what they had already ate themselves in terms of nutrients.

Just to be clear, I am not totally against eating meat. But, I know how unhealthy it is for humans, and how badly the animals are treated, and how much it is destroying our earth. I think if people eat meat, it should be very minimal, a few times a month at most. And it should be organic and from animals that were well cared for. The stress most animals endure to become food is so toxic to their bodies that you do not want to be eating that.

That said, I am also very sensitive to the suffering of other creatures. I know that food animals feel love, happiness, sadness, fear, and pain. I personally do not want to pay someone to cause them fear and pain. What they go through is more torture than most people could even fathom. Most people believe that it would be illegal what is done to them, but it's not. If humans lived just one day in their shoes, I believe they would not eat meat again. So if you really do care about animals, you will care about this and do whatever you can to not support it.

I found out early in my teens, that was the time I tried going vegan, all fruit and vegetables, that my body cannot live without meat. I've always had a low iron count. I had problems with the vegan diet both in lack of vitamins and digestion. So telling me I suck because I rely on eating meat, with a healthy servings of fruit and veg. And its lame to assume one must be a vegan to be able to care about animals.

BlueMermaid

12-04-2014, 05:15 PM

Everything seems very civil here to me. No name calling or anything. Just because people have a differing opinion doesn't make it drama. But when it turns into name calling or abusive, then bulldoze away. lol

:bulldozer:

ah, before this gets bad I would like to vote that an admin goes ahead and moves this last page or so on over to the Drama thread? Just to keep things civil here.

Mermaid Jaffa

12-04-2014, 06:47 PM

There is a difference you know. Cows, elephants and other plant eating animals have years of evolution behind them, where even their ancestors survived on eating plants. Our human ancestors did not subsist on plants alone. They still had some form of meat, whether it was land animals, flying ones or ocean creatures.

I was replying to the green seahorse, not BlueMermaid response.

In Australia, we have strict guidelines and rules regarding our food animals. We're not some third world country, where the meat is tortured and then eaten.

Miyu

12-05-2014, 02:13 AM

You can't say you love animals, are an environmentalist, etc if you eat, use, and exploit them. When you use or eat an animal, you support their abuse and deaths. Animal agriculture is one of the top ways we are detroying the planet (pollution, emissions, water use, etc)

Yes, you can, actually. I, for one, feel horrible every time I eat meat. I don't currently have a lot of choice if I don't want to start huge fights. There really are times in life when people don't have much choice in what they eat. Are you going to tell the starving folks in Africa that they can't eat meat because it's mean to animals? There have been many times when I was flat broke and the only way I could get food was through food banks and church donations. Yes, I ate primarily a vegan diet, but every now and then, when I was about ready to pass out from malnutrition, I had some animal product.

Can one not feel horrible about child slavery and human exploitation, and yet still buy things from major brands that are running sweatshops to manufacture said items? I can't even tell you how many brands and stores "legally" use sweatshop labour. Ever wonder why so many things say "Made in China"? Besides, you don't REALLY know how many of the things you own were truly made without the sacrifice of animals! Have you ever checked to make sure your bleached white sugar wasn't made with bone char from animals? That's right, about half the sugar refineries in the U.S. use bone char in the production of plain white sugar. (This would be why I buy PURE, unbleached cane sugar and coconut sugar). Here's some more info on the subject, so you can know a few more products that utilize bone char, as I'm sure you'll want to avoid them as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_char. For that matter, anything made from oil - this includes plastics - IS MADE FROM DEAD DINOSAURS. So in all reality, it's practically impossible to avoid using animals AT ALL.

I feel terrible about the way humans treat the environment, and the use of plastics disgusts me, but here we all are with computers which - you guessed it - are absolutely horrible to the environment to produce and maintain.

~~~

Anyways, yes, just about anyone can get over the allergies thing. I am lactose-intolerant, and I love making my own nut/seed milks (so much tastier than milk, which I never liked). If people truly ARE allergic to things like soy, etc., then they need to watch where their meat comes from, because most commercially-farmed meat is fed with a lot of things people are allergic to.

Another reason to not over-do it on the soy: The vast, VAST majority of soy is harvested from GMO crops, and it's thought that the fact that it's genetically modified is the reason people have allergies to it: http://www.livestrong.com/article/200114-what-are-the-dangers-of-gmo-soybeans/ . Realistically, it's probably where a good amount of food allergies come from, as wide-spread food allergies are a rather new thing (as we continue to genetically modify food in greater and greater quantities). If I'm eating something with a halfway decent amount of soy anything in it, it had better be organic. This is why I don't eat most "fake meat" products... I prefer things like burgers made from actual veggies and beans and the like. I am fortunate enough to live in an area with easy access to various organic foods, and I take full advantage of that.

Really, eating organic (local, if possible) produce is about the nicest thing you can do for the planet with your diet! Organic means no chemical pesticides, farmers have to have natural, non-invasive plans of attack in case of possible infestation, and a lot of organic foods are also fair-trade,which helps take care of the farmers who work for our huge and sometimes ridiculous appetites. I absolutely refuse to buy certain things non-organic, such as coffee.

Some of my favorite recipe books are:

1000 Vegetarian Recipes From Around the World
(http://www.amazon.com/1000-Vegetarian-Recipes-Around-World/dp/0752584278/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1417763335&sr=8-1&keywords=1000+vegetarian+recipes+from+around+the+w orld)
The Raw Food Gourmet (http://www.amazon.com/Raw-Food-Gourmet-Going-Well-Being/dp/1556436130/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1417763404&sr=8-1&keywords=The+Raw+food+gourmet) (this one has been in my collection for SO LONG, it's definitely my favorite recipe book)

The Raw Transformation (http://www.amazon.com/Raw-Transformation-Energizing-Living-Foods/dp/1556435894/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1417763472&sr=1-1&keywords=the+raw+transformation) (my second-favorite recipe book)

I've recently gotten a copy of 12 Steps to Raw Foods by Victoria Boutenko, I'm excited to read it :)

Winged Mermaid

12-05-2014, 09:15 AM

The other thread was getting intense, so I made a new thread for debate purposes. But just becuase it's a debate thread doesn't mean you can get nasty either ;) If you can't handle a RESPECTFUL debate without shoving your beliefs in people's faces, this thread is not for you. I expect everyone to keep a calmer head in this thread from now on.
Especially you Seahorse Mystery- I know you're passionate on this subject, but you are starting to get disrespectful. I understand you feel strongly about this, but just try and be more tolorant of other people's opinions and stay respectful ;) No "flame wars" will be tolerated here! That goes for everyone!

http://i.minus.com/iU4HZYx7PIUOT.gif
http://i.minus.com/ioNcVTk57VSHk.gif

Miyu

12-05-2014, 09:21 AM

Thanks for that, Iona! Now the other thread can be debate/drama-free, and can be peaceful talk about veggie foods only :)

LOVE that gifset!

Echidna

12-05-2014, 09:47 AM

Yay Iona!

Now that we have a debate thread, here's a little video clip looking at the scientific side of meat eating. :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGO4xkLYmy8

okok...here's another for the more serious folks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhYjFWGAgM4

It's very handy to show to people who adamantly insist humans are natural carnivores.

BlueMermaid

12-05-2014, 09:52 AM

They may have eatin meat out of necessity, but our teeth, digestive tract, etc is like that of herbivores, plant eaters. And it is proven that vegans have far less diseases than meat eaters, so that alone tells me that we are not meant to eat meat and dairy.

I don't know what the laws are in Australia, but I live in the USA with "strict guidelines and rules regarding our food animals" too. And that allows them to do horrible, painful things to the animals. (unless it is a citizen doing it to a dog, that gets jail time.) So being a 3rd world country has nothing to do with it. Let me tell you some of the things animal agriculture is allowed to do here in the good ol USA: Put pigs in cages so small they can't lay down, turn around, nothing but stand there in their own poop. Oh and they stay there for years, going so crazy they go bloody trying to chew the bars and get free. They then have to watch and actually cry as their baby piglets get their testicles and tails cut off without any kind of pain relief. If a pig is sick or not growing fast enough, it is perfectly acceptable to slam them full force into the concrete, and throw their twitching body into a corner to die. When it's time for a pig to become meat, they are lined up to go to the room, and they freak out. Fear fills their body, you can see in their eyes how terrified they are. Then they get taken into the room where they are stunned which is supposed to knock them unconscious before their throat is slit. Unfortunately it doesn't always work so they feel the pain of the knife and the pain of hanging upside down by one leg while their blood drains down their face until they die. That is just what they do to pigs. And this is when they are nice. Often the workers are really mean and punch and kick them because they won't "cooperate".

There is a difference you know. Cows, elephants and other plant eating animals have years of evolution behind them, where even their ancestors survived on eating plants. Our human ancestors did not subsist on plants alone. They still had some form of meat, whether it was land animals, flying ones or ocean creatures.

I was replying to the green seahorse, not BlueMermaid response.

In Australia, we have strict guidelines and rules regarding our food animals. We're not some third world country, where the meat is tortured and then eaten.

BlueMermaid

12-05-2014, 10:04 AM

Great videos! That one with the cartoon was pretty funny!

Yay Iona!

Now that we have a debate thread, here's a little video clip looking at the scientific side of meat eating. :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGO4xkLYmy8

okok...here's another for the more serious folks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhYjFWGAgM4

It's very handy to show to people who adamantly insist humans are natural carnivores.

Miyu

12-05-2014, 10:14 AM

I think everyone should watch "Earthlings" at least once in their lives. I was raised around the cruelty of the meat/dairy industries, but still, I wasn't prepared for this movie. I cried so much, but I cam out of it with a completely new respect for animals and a greater desire to research the origins of everything I consume.

Aziara

12-05-2014, 11:36 AM

It seems to me that every atrocity described here in this thread is a factory farm. Can we all agree that factory farms are evil places? Yes? Good, moving on....
Please note that there is a huge difference between those factory farms and a tiny family farm. If a small farm used the same techniques, the animals would sicken and die, because family farms can't afford (and often don't want to use) antibiotics and hormones. Mystery, I don't know where to find scientific research into egg eating, but what I have said comes from personal experience and observation. When one hen began egg eating, all that could be found in every nest was broken shells and globs of yolk. No eggs suvived. And if it is nutritional needs, what are food and supplements for?
Obviously, you also have no way of knowing how a tiny dairy is run (meaning only 3-4 milk producing at a time). There is no forced breeding, the does (females) are only placed with a buck (male) when she is in season, and believe me, keeping her away is hard if you don't want her to breed! She most certainly 'consents', lol.
The kids (babies) are left with mother, and the milk taken is the excess that the kid doesn't drink. The mother's udder would actually get infected if she were not milked (she makes too much!). A female kid will likely remain with her mother for life, even as she grows and has babies of her own. The males are separated at weaning time, not for cruelty's sake, but so they don't impregnate their sisters (they are fertile by that age, but a doe who has a baby so young will have trouble delivering).
The basic idea I am trying to convey is simply this: what you have seen in factory farm documentaries is not the only way. There is a more compassionate way. That compassion is what I am advocating for when chosing whether to buy a particular animal product. I really think the depression rates would go down in the world if everything we ate wasn't so drenched in misery.

Miyu

12-05-2014, 11:45 AM

I agree. Small farms are WAY more kind!!! If only we could convince modern humans (mainly us 'Muricans) that they really don't NEED to eat meat at every meal, or even every day... Then we could return to small-farming animals :no-no:

BlueMermaid

12-05-2014, 04:28 PM

This is all very true. The unfortunate thing is that most people do not get meat from these places. I don't know anyone that does. They are too few and far between for most people. Like I said I'm not against eating meat that is from these places, but it is not an option for most people. And again, the science shows that eating animal products is bad for our health, no matter how nice the animals are treated.

It seems to me that every atrocity described here in this thread is a factory farm. Can we all agree that factory farms are evil places? Yes? Good, moving on....
Please note that there is a huge difference between those factory farms and a tiny family farm. If a small farm used the same techniques, the animals would sicken and die, because family farms can't afford (and often don't want to use) antibiotics and hormones. Mystery, I don't know where to find scientific research into egg eating, but what I have said comes from personal experience and observation. When one hen began egg eating, all that could be found in every nest was broken shells and globs of yolk. No eggs suvived. And if it is nutritional needs, what are food and supplements for?
Obviously, you also have no way of knowing how a tiny dairy is run (meaning only 3-4 milk producing at a time). There is no forced breeding, the does (females) are only placed with a buck (male) when she is in season, and believe me, keeping her away is hard if you don't want her to breed! She most certainly 'consents', lol.
The kids (babies) are left with mother, and the milk taken is the excess that the kid doesn't drink. The mother's udder would actually get infected if she were not milked (she makes too much!). A female kid will likely remain with her mother for life, even as she grows and has babies of her own. The males are separated at weaning time, not for cruelty's sake, but so they don't impregnate their sisters (they are fertile by that age, but a doe who has a baby so young will have trouble delivering).
The basic idea I am trying to convey is simply this: what you have seen in factory farm documentaries is not the only way. There is a more compassionate way. That compassion is what I am advocating for when chosing whether to buy a particular animal product. I really think the depression rates would go down in the world if everything we ate wasn't so drenched in misery.

Mermaid Jaffa

12-05-2014, 06:12 PM

BlueMermaid, just the way Seahorse Mystery worded his/her paragraph made me feel like I had to reply about our food and animal laws. To assume and imply just because I disagreed a little, is not a nice feeling.

Mermaid Leira

12-05-2014, 07:41 PM

I was vegetarian until I was an adult, never liked meat until I experimented cooking it myself, I do eat some not but lots or vegetarian cooking as well, lucky hear in Aus, my meat comes from my grandparents small farm, or local free range farms, the animals have a varied diet open spaces and taste better easy to by produce from local markets that you know doesn't come from factory farming, and although I'm not pro hunting, friends shoot wild deer here ( not native to aus) and use the hide and meat and share what they can't use, I catch cray both salt and fresh and take abalone, fish and oysters right from the sea (there's really good websites to search for the humane way to kill different crustations etc) and eggs from my friend down the roads free range chooks :) I do steer clear of products that come from farm factories or contain palm oil etc. interested to know what being completely vegan means? How's do you ensure that the product you get hasn't harmed any animals or their environment in its production? Also interested to hear if anyone lives self sustaining? That would be very rewarding :)