Yeah, I can agree with that. Like most fields, people specialise in different areas.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShyMer
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Yeah, I can agree with that. Like most fields, people specialise in different areas.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShyMer
This discussion is very heated. If you wish to continue discussing this, please be respectful and exercise caution so that you do not say something that might violate our rule against harassment.
I'd also like to strongly suggest to both Coradion and Raina that it is unlikely you will resolve your differences in a couple posts, and once you have shared your opinion is is perhaps best not to engage, and to simply leave the matter be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mermaid Melaina
My comparison for clown and acrobat is kind of like anybody can put on a costume and call themselves a clown. Not everyone can be an acrobat. Both entertain and work in a similar field but one takes more rigorous training and usually an inherent talent. Sometimes you're just physically incapable of doing something, like with cirque sometimes no amount of desire will make you more flexible. No matter how much you might want to be able to perform a trick some people just can't. I think that's what separates what people often consider the pro mers like Hannah and Melissa from others. Melissa is clearly on a higher level than most people with tails as far as aquatic talent goes. To be a seaworld trainer is pretty hardcore I have some friends who are dolphin and seal trainers, most positions have thousands of applicants and physical fitness and swim tests are required. If you can't hold your breath and swim the distance you don't get the job period. People like Hannah also have some serious balls, she doesn't just say she thinks something is wrong she goes out and actually does something about it and uses her status to accomplish things. How many people here would willingly dive with sharks, even great whites to prove a point? Not many. On top of that she dives without a mask, I've been in the water with sharks before and I'm okay with it, but I'm not gonna get in with them without being able to see them and watch their reactions very carefully. That seems to be what separates the pros and they attract media attention a lot of the time without needing to seek it out or self promote.
Larger display tanks like the one at Pacific Beach Hotel on O'ahu are fairly deep. The one at Pac Beach is twenty six feet deep, in order to be a mermaid there where you are paid to dive several times a day in a tail and you must be able to swim down to the bottom set of windows which is a minimum twenty feet. That is one case where if you can't make the dive you're not going to get the job. That's a criteria that a large company has set down for what they consider necessary to be a pro or at least employed mer.
It's obvious there are MANY levels of every profession.
Including Clown. Some people study for years and work at perfecting the historic art of Clown (Commedia dell'Arte, for example). Clowns - many of whom are also employed by Cirque du Soleil, by the way - are NOT acrobats. Your metaphor is flawed and you are insulting another profession. Comparing clowns to acrobats is like comparing apples to rabbits.
What one large company requires for one job does not set the standard for what that job is everywhere.
Agreed with pearliemae.
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Melissa and Hannah both have copies of my book. :)
No one ever seems to pay attention to mermaid linden. She works exclusively for celebs and I believe out of all the mermaids has the best free dive. She free dives for a living and is also a judge for it. I chat with her on Facebook and she's done some amazing things. She also trained the dive bar mermaids and she has an online kids show.
The two pro mers who made the statements about other pro meds both own my book. One of them used to spam me relentlessly to share their f.b. page.
Professional in subjective. It just irks me when people put down the very people they have gone to for help. If I'm using myself as an example here, and under the idea that working with kids doesn't make me a pro Mer... Then why buy my book? Why use my ideas and tutorials? Why ask me for help?
This sort of mentality of hiding how people have learned seems to be rampant in our community as much as putting down what other mers do as not professional. Everyone wants to keep up the illusion they got to where they are on their own and their way of doing things is the only legitimate way of either doing it or being professional.
At the end of the day though it still doesn't take away from someone's accomplishments and work. So I really agree with what Citrine says in her post and I think its important we keep advocating for our different areas of expertise. Some of my fans brought up some awesome points on my page I'll have to share when I'm at a computer.
Can't change everyone's mind though. ;)
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I feel that professional means something different from within the community to outside of it. From what someone here might deem themselves as a hobbyist and occasionally be paid, a normal human might call them a professional because someone can hire you, even if you do only a few paying gigs a year. Where as online here, I feel we deem those who are professional as those who are making money from doing it on a regular basis, and then you have fans, soul mermaids, mermaids for fun, hobbyists, and occasionally a part time mermaid. I say that I'm a professional mermaid because I am hired out on a regular or semi regular basis,and people can hire me for things outside of birthday parties, and I have my own registered business and tax id. That's what made it for me. Everyone is different. As Coradion's best merfriend we've had this conversation many times, and have disagreeed and agreed along the way, and I'm okay with that, if each person had their own definition and fought over what to make it correct we'd never settle. Instead we agree that you can be a paid mermaid, and and hobbyist, and that there are many varients for each person.
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Originally Posted by Coradion
Oh hold up I see what you're saying now. It makes sense. There needs to be certain requirements you have to accomplish or complete before you become "certified" or "become a professional".
Its like how someone can be certified to be a doctor but they're not certified to be a gynacogist or a nurse/surgeon. Different levels... It's like a video game!!!!
So when pointing out "pro mers", you keep bringing up Melissa and Hannah.
And only them, because "they have the breathhold, ability etc".
Newsflash: yes, they are pro, but they're not the only ones, they just happen to be the most well-known.
They're celebrities. They're fantastic at what they do, but to limit the whole "pro" thing to them is like saying no actor is a professional unless he's a star.
This whole discussion seems pretty pointless, because it's well defined what professional is, and it's been mentioned many times already.
"Mermaid" is a quite new profession with many specializations.
Many require great freediving/swimming abilities, but not all.
This has nothing to do whether the mer in question is a professional or not.
Going on about what you personally think has the most merit adds nothing to the discussion, or what defines a professional (aka being paid).
But certification and levels don't apply to every job. You can be an H.R. Specialist who simply has their H.R degree (your schooling) but be specialist based on your experience. I can be a teacher but then also specialize in ESL, Learning disabilities, a specific topic or age group, private or public school etc and none of those things makes me any less a professional. I think the issue with mermaiding is that it's not exactly a recognized job you can apply for. I don't see it as different levels, it's different areas of specialty, or for some people it's a generalist. A G.P. doctor is no more or no less a professional than someone who has gone into a specific field. My point is, if you're going to differentiate, then differentiate between people who consistently work and people who do it as a hobby. Not the type of work they're doing. Like I said, you could stretch that thinking to anything. Hannah Fraser has been a model much longer than she's been a mermaid and does just as much if not more modelling work than mermaid work. So is she a model who wears a mermaid tail? Melissa is a pearl diver at sea world (she was only briefly an animal trainer and didn't enjoy it) and has been for longer than she's been a mermaid and works at that job still full time while doing mermaid stuff on the side. So is she a pearl diver who is also a mermaid? Or think of musicians. Raffi goes on tour, sells albums, gives interviews and collaborates with other musicians, and publishes books. He plays kids music. So is he a music professional, a kid's entertainer, or both?
I think in society in general, people who work with children in any capacity are constantly having to validate the work they do because society never sees it as professional. Everyone thinks because they were a kid they know how to handle one, or because they went to school they know how to be a teacher. You don't walk into your doctors office and demand to see his credentials, but it happens to teachers all the time. In Canada we have the same amount of education for teachers as many doctors do, and the same intense level of practicum requirement. This isn't just me making it up, there are loads and loads of peer reviewed studies on this issue, books about it, and they teach about it in pretty much any educational program that is geared toward teaching or working with kids. It's not just sit in a tail and do nothing but look pretty for the kids... mermaids who try to pull that will not last long ;) (but I mean that's all the divebar mermaids really do, swim around in a shallow tank in a bar- are they not professionals? Just too subjective!) Anyway, I hope that gives some insight into why I find it so interesting a topic for debate. Because it's not just a debate in the mermaid world, it's a debate in the professional world too.
And I'm with you Harmony. I pay taxes for my company, I pay insurance, I employ 4 other people-soon to expand to 6. I have a company vehicle and company materials (.e.g cameras) In the government's eyes, I'm a professional and I am entitled to all the benefits and all the taxes that go with it. There are actually huge upgrades coming to Halifax Mermaids and big changes people will see within the next year directly because our government has decided to financially reward us for some of our entrepreneurial achievements. I just haven't said anything publicly about it til everything is all finished up ;)
I will say, I find when one person/company starts making statements like that, it comes more from a place of insecurity and worry about competition. If they can influence the market's ideas of what's professional, then maybe people wont go to other services. It happens all the time in industry. My boyfriend worked for a company that made energy efficient LED Street lights, and at least half the marketing was how the competitors couldn't realllllly be considered efficient, or LEd, or whatever the hot button issue was. If someone does something you don't, you try and make what you offer look like it's the better thing. Normal competitor business stuff.
Anyway, I put the question to my fans to see what some of them think. They're my fans, so obviously they're biased. But a few of them came up with some very comprehensive thoughts I wanted to share:
Sheroes Entertainment Mermaids and Pirates We specialize in professional mermaid entertainment for children. If anything, children are some of the hardest judges of a good performance. Adults are happy to be entertained, children need it to be REAL while being entertained. Our team is always working on increasing breath hold because it assists in our on camera work. That said, SCUBA certs are more important for us than breath hold. Our crew is almost all dive trained and we use tanks frequently on our best shoots and always work with a full rescue diver team. Our people have SAG credits, lifeguard certs, stunt resumes, etc. Some have even worked with Cirque du Soleil before. What makes them professional mermaids is the combination of their attention to professionalism in business (e.g. they see it AS a business, not a hobby) and they are constantly looking at their mermaid work from a holistic approach for improvement.... costuming, movement, physical fitness, poise, knowledge of the ocean, realistic use of props, etc. I think that the devotion one gives to creating an exceptional performance and their dedication to mastering its trade matter more than a singular credential.
Michelle Fernandes Brandl There's too much of a range of what people do as mermaids that it cannot be confined in a cookie cutter pattern. If your job is to wear a fish tail then you are a professional mermaid.
Carrie Loudoun If you get paid: your a professional mermaid. What you do to get paid; model, work with kids, perform, etc= doesn't change that you get paid for a service! That's how I've always seen it
John Jay most mermaids are surface based and that is where kids are a few have some dive skills but I know one performer that learned to swim late in Life. you need no more than a 30 second breath hold to have a great show in a pool or tank. (please note John Jay is a free diving/breath holding instructor)
Melissa Lehman I feel this image is appropriate. Professional by definition means engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as a pastime. If this by definition is your main paying occupation you are considered a professional. I think the better word here though is lifestyle This is something that from the mermaids I've talked to don't consider a job. It's their life, their passion, their dream to be this. Paying the bills is a perk but this is a way of life be it making children smile, putting on shows, free diving, modeling, or ocean conservation all of it! Any of it! To say you are more professional than someone else sounds very well unprofessional.
Lesley Neily In all seriousness, I think it has a lot to do with approach and intent. If I were to buy a tail tomorrow and start enjoying myself swimming about and posing for pics, even maybe doing the odd public event, I could be considered as having a mermaid hobby. And I would likely be very content with that and never take it farther.
You have built a viable business surrounding your mermaid life, and anyone who doesn't think you're a professional because you do parties is not paying attention.
Michi Kaioh If you make your income from something, it can be considered your profession. Simple as that.
and probably the best most informative comment from someone who works there:
Joseph McGarry For self-employed mermaids, the IRS has 9 factors to determine whether someone is in business or it's just a hobby. They are 1. Businesslike manner, 2. Time and Effort, 3. Expertise, 4. Expectation of asset appreciation, 5. Success in other activities, 6. History of income and loss, 7. Occasional profits, 8. Dependency on income, 9. Element of personal pleasure (The fact that you get personal pleasure from doing it does not mean that it is not a business.)
Annd while I'm typing a book, Catluna comes in for the win!!! <3
I can't get this out of my head, now... ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbWwC6H2Hd0
LMAO, Dan I love you.
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Originally Posted by SeaGlass Siren
Exactly! Like Harmony and I both have business licenses and pay taxes on what we do so for me at least it's more than hobbyist level and could be deemed professional. I feel for Mermaid Harmony though she's much more the professional than I am. She's always booked for lots of different kinds of events, has cards, and makes an active effort to present herself as a professional. She's careful about what's even on her personal facebook since she's friends with lots of kids and parents kind of thing. Harmony is also always striving to improve her physical abilities to be a mer. Like free diving practice, always swimming, and working on her breath hold.
That's exactly what Raina has been saying, though. If it's a registered business and you pay taxes, it's professional.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coradion
But that's exactly what Raina (and many other mers) do...? Other than physical limitations that can't be "practiced" away. And I thought you said before that Harmony wasn't a professional? That she was a children's entertainer?Quote:
Originally Posted by Coradion
Additionally, while I disagree that you have to do commercials/publicised events to be a pro, everything you've listed here Raina has done. So I honestly don't know what you're trying to achieve with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coradion
i see what both raina and coradion are saying. and i personally think they're saying the same thing... i think it's just "expressing of ideas" and "ideas being interpreted differently" that's been happening.
Gaiiiiiis stahhhp it. o-o stahhhhhhhp
that's what was more of what i was going for. i wasn't sure if my ideas were coming across properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by AniaR
areas of specialty and level of skills was more of what i was going for. of course it doesnt apply to every job, but i mean in a sense of personal "levelling up"
Like... lets compare me to you. I sit and model in a tail. does that make me a pro mermaid? clearly not :P because that's all i can do. you on the other hand, can hold your breath and swim/dunk your head underwater without freaking out about water getting into your nose.
...i have much "levelling up" to do. does it kinda make some sorta sense? .__.
I honestly think that you can make what you want of the word 'professional' when it comes to mermaiding. You're a pro-mermaid if you say you are. It's a self-declared title usually used to promote what you do. You really can't compare it to doctors or teachers, since those are things you go to school for if you really want, which might give you the right to say 'Well, I am more professional because I became an MD, got teacher certified, etc' than people who do, say, herbal healing or teach Sunday school and don't have degrees for medicine or teaching. There is no school for mermaids to go to or tests for them to pass or anything else, so having "levels" is just all in people's minds.
If you don't want to consider people who do kids' parties "professionals," that is your right since we don't have any laws defining what is a promer, but honestly I think we should all just let people call themselves what they wish. There is no Bar Exam for mermaids, no Council of Mermaids to declare who is and isn't a "pro." 99% of the world would never even THINK 'professional' and 'mermaid' are words that could go together. I say, if you consider what you do to warrant the title of professional, then no one else has the right to say otherwise, not until some official standards are set up.
In the end, I think we are using the wrong word here. It isn't whether or not you are a professional, it's whether you are a very FAMOUS professional. 'Actor' is really the best comparison to 'mermaid,' and while you may not be a FAMOUS actor if all you do is, say, play a pirate at the Ren Faire or kids' parties, you can still call yourself a professional. Are you on the level of Johnny Depp in Pirates of the Caribbean? No, but that doesn't mean you're not a professional actor--you're being paid for your work. It simply means that you're not super FAMOUS for being a professional actor.
I would say that people like Hannah Frasier are VERY FAMOUS professional mermaids (a level Raina is approaching, obviously, but has not quite achieved as broadly as Hannah has yet), while some of the other mers are simply pro mers who don't get a lot of media coverage.
In my personal opinion...
Paid = Pro
Despite what you do, whether that be parties, modeling, free diving, or lectures, if you're getting paid to do it in some form, you're professional in my mind. Even if it all goes to a charity that's pro. Saying something like, "You have to be a free diver to be a professional mermaid" is kinda like saying "You can only be a heart surgeon to be considered a surgeon." There's different breeds of professional.
If the comparison was people starting out in a tail compared to people who do a bunch of different things in a tail, I would have agreed. But the comparison was people doing kids parties in a tail. I couldn't DO a kid's party without all the skills I use for all my other mer-gigs and event. (Kids parties make up about 1/2 of my income and time, the other things are filled with either adult or all ages/commercial work)Quote:
Like... lets compare me to you. I sit and model in a tail. does that make me a pro mermaid? clearly not :P because that's all i can do. you on the other hand, can hold your breath and swim/dunk your head underwater without freaking out about water getting into your nose.
Also, I certainly wont argue that Melissa is a much better swimmer than I am, but if you're going to measure success what *is* the success? I travel for mermaid stuff, I've done more music videos/tv appearances (I just filmed several in the past few months that I can't post until they are released) they just happen to all be Canadian. I can support myself full time with my mermaid work, along with 2 other mermaids and an assistant (plus 1 other sub mermaid and 1 sub assistant). Actually wrote and published a book (Melissa was a character in one written and illustrated by someone else), and melissa has used the very tips in my book in the order they were written in to help her expand her media reach and social networking and kids parties. Thing is, I *don't* think I'm a better mermaid than her, or really anyone one else, but I make the comparison to show that it's seriously SUBJECTIVE. It's also important to look at context. Canada has a smaller population base. We have the same amount of people in our WHOLE COUNTRY than in California. We also have no aquariums on the East Coast willing to take mermaids and only a few on the west who are even considering. (and that's including the Ripley's Franchices). For what I am doing in Canada, I am every bit as well known as Melissa- in Canada. Few people know who she or any other big name mers are here. Just like how the Mermaids who are overseas and have several in the top of their field who also don't seem to be in the list of top pro mers- but probably should. Mermaids in their own respective countries will all have different opportunities. But I walk into other business establishments and people know who I am. The costume designer from Splash who has nothing to do with the mercommunity, but designed the tail for Shouse to make even personally contacted me when I released my book. For someone like him to find me, I have to believe I have reached a level of professionalism whether people want to agree with that or not.
Some mermaids have reached their high level by running swim schools. Others (Like Sheroes) by their amazing photoshoots. It's just so. incredibly. subjective. You can't just (as the two mermaids in the original post suggested) look at the couple of mermaids who free dive on a regular basis and consider them the only professionals. Have you tried free diving in Canadian waters? lol it's pretty green and cold on the East Coast, and I can't be dropping mad coin to fly around the world just for the illusion of looking more professional because I do some things in deeper water :p
And just in regards to,
We did stop. Mal directed his post at me and Cor. We're still engaging in conversation/debate and so is everyone else and that's what the forum is for. We just stopped the name calling as per requested. Nobody else is doing that or being dramatic. Just engaging with each other.Quote:
Gaiiiiiis stahhhp it. o-o stahhhhhhhp