http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/...20140827210834
Oh god that was so long I'm so sorry, please don't be mad at me. ;-; I may have gotten a little carried away with that analysis, oops.
Printable View
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/...20140827210834
Oh god that was so long I'm so sorry, please don't be mad at me. ;-; I may have gotten a little carried away with that analysis, oops.
That was.... glorious. [emoji79] [emoji122] [emoji122] [emoji122]
Edit: change from amazing to glorious because oh it was.
I totally see where you're coming from and I see the same thing. A+ for gif usage
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another thing to note is the space between the veins in the fluke and the scale shape, which are as identical as can be
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http://abload.de/img/hehe3sjll.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by merkitty
I try my best. Though I tend to overthink these things, sometimes...
I noticed that too! Mostly I opted to avoid addressing similarities in the fluke and scale shapes between the two tails since I was more focused on the Blue Tang design itself than the tail's construction (especially where Swimtails' is only a drawing at this stage and it seemed unfair to put them on blast for that aspect when they don't have a physical tail made with this design yet.)Quote:
Originally Posted by mermaidofthelabyrinth
its odd I find thare tails amazing and they seem friendly they even fallowd me on twtter too at but reading all this comments and looking at the compareing im not so sure they are safe since they are stealing tail designs :( plus im worred im next if my tail design gets out
Awesome, Tieri! I love your in-depth analysis!
In reference to the lotus tail, it's a lot more subtle, but definite design elements are copied directly.
Lotus' initial design has a definite swirl pattern down the body of the tail. Swimtails has used a leaf texture in their image, whose center rib follows the same line as Lotus Blossom's original design.
Also, the interpretation of the flower/fluke nearly identical as far as shape and proportion. Lilium, who designed a lotus-themed tail previously, used the lotus flower as her interpretation, but is decidedly different in her version. Also, Lillium had designed her tail in 2013, Lotus Blossom in 2014, and Swimtails had marked theirs with a copyright (©) 2015.
Like I said before, you can knock off a garment once it's produced, but Swimtails is offering a tail for production from an original DESIGN that was created by Lotus Blossom. That's where the theft of intellectual property comes in.
Hello All , This is Ryan, owner of Swimtails, I see that there is a vibrant debate about our company and I feel it fair to join in
Lets Begin with the Dory Tail.
I was alerted yesterday morning of a design descrpancy regarding FinFolks Dory Tail, When I was made aware of this, I removed the tail from all of my sites and repremanded the designer. I also spoke with Abby, the owner of FinFolk directly on the phone and we came to an amicable agreement
As for the Lotus Tail, Our design was 100% NOT in any way inspired by anything but the Lotus Flower. Just because somebody made similar design and posted it to a forum, does not entitle them to intellectual rights to our idea.
When we were alerted that we "copied" her lotus tail, we searched and could not find her drawing, she had to send us a copy. In fact we just joined the Forum today after finding out that PearlieMae was making awful claims about us from one of our fans
So the question becomes this: Are we allowed to create tails based on fish that another designer had previously done?
Are fish copyrighted? Is it a "I did it first" mentality.?
PearlieMae, do you belive that your Lotus design was te first and only rendetion of a mermaid flower tail. I can assure you it is not. I have found in my research serveral other "lotus-like" mermaid tail dsigns that re-date your own.
Gee that kinda felt like a trial that we were not invited to, may we respond?
Hey PearlieMae, we did NOT rip off this design, we designed this with the inspiration of the Lotus Flower. Your drawing is not available to find on any search engines, nor is it an actual product that has been produced. How could we have possibly stolen this design?
Thank you for your kind comments. We get asked and sent pictures of drawings and snapshots of different fish ie. Lion fish, mandarin, dory/tang. People LOVE mermaids especially children which we get designs from all day. They all like to draw images for ideas for there next tail. We are learning now that we need to be very careful about designs that are out there already. We do not want a bad name. We want to supply the community nice fabric tails at a fair price. We are not offering silicone only fabric. So these tails would never be the same anyway.
Mermaid Selene, we removed PearlieMae's responses because of the accusatory nature of her messages. The Lotus flower tail was NOT designed based on her drawing. Just because she drew it first, does not give a right to accuse us and slander us. There are billions of people, millions of artists and thousands of mermaid artists, What are the odds of there being legitamtely simialr designs? I have spoken to the owners of a few major mermaid tail companies and they have assured me that they get accused of stealing designs too. One owner I spoke to confided that she designed a tail that she thought someone else ripped off because of the similarity, in fact that other designer had made their tail first.
Wow, you sure do like to throw around the slander word.
There are too many precise similarities (like the Dory tail) between your design and Lotus Blossom's design to believe it to be coincidental, in my opinion. If you had several flower design tails, and weren't so immediately defensive, I would be willing to believe that it was the universe coming together to show how great minds think alike. After your exchange with Lotus, I'm inclined to think that somehow you actually DID see her design.
And as for not responding, I don't live on the forum and just got out of a doctor's appointment.
PearlieMae, your first mesage to us was "You have Stolen Intellectual Property" you went on to threaten us with a lawsuit. Again the Dory Tail was a mistake made that was resolved drectly with Abby from Finfolk. A designer was fired for this instance. However that does not mean that the lotus tail was copied. FinFolk's Dory Tail is an actual product that was been produced and purchased and is widely known. Your drawing of a lotus like tail is not widely published so we could have not even known it existed . Wishing you health at your Dr. App
Also, because the drawing didn't show up in your internet search of images doesn't mean you don't have access to the forum.
And the design in question doesn't belong to me, but a Mernetwork forum member, with whom you've had a lengthy exchange.
None of our comments have been rude. This is why we had to block people from our instagram. Everything was an accusation. You and pearlie came at us very harsh
We have just signed up to the forum this morning, you can check for yourself PearlieMae
no way we could have seen that drawing, its not accessible unless you are a member of this com, even then, I would have to dig around for it, I still havent found it, only have an image that was sent to me directly
I can assure you theredknight100 that we are not out to steal anyones's designs. We are all part of a greater community of creative artists, if there are ever similarties, you can reach out to us directly. We have enough imagination to fill a room and don't need to steal. the Dory fin was a mistake that we owned up to, I had to fire one of my best designers becaouse of that. I also had a long conversation with Abby from FinFolk and we are on good terms. As for the lotus flower design, I KNOW that this is not in anyway inspired from PearlieMAe, because I created it myself
Please make all your posts in ONE post.
Here's the deal.
I started this thread.
I have 3 mermaid companies. www.halifaxmermaids.com www.atlanticmermaids.com and www.canadianmermaids.com and if the mernetwork members will let me toot my own horn here for a second, I'm one of the more well known mermaids with 32,000+ followers on facebook and a huge client base.
We're up for a $10,000 business grant so I have been researching who I can give my constant business to for fabric tail makers. We plan on buying a bulk order of tails to rent, and we want to get in touch with someone about being official resellers. So I have been contacting all the fabric tail makers online. THERE IS ONLY ONE FABRIC TAIL COMPANY IN CANADA AND THEY DO NOT FILL THE DEMAND. So there is a huge market here.
So for me, a well known, well versed, large company and potential client...
THIS DOES NOT LOOK GOOD TO ME. I have made LOADS of posts on mernetwork over the past 5 years about the issues of ripping off other tail makers. I refuse to support any company that does it. I have blacklisted loads of people. And it MAKES A DIFFERENCE. As a very well known mermaid I am asked at least 10 times a day "do you recommend ____?" on here, on facebook, on twitter, on instagram, on youtube, and on our website. YOU DO NOT WANT SOMEONE LIKE ME SAYING NO I DONT RECOMMEND THESE PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY STEAL TAIL DESIGNS... BECAUSE YOUR POTENTIAL CLIENTS WILL LISTEN TO ME.
So here is the deal. You've been researching the mer-community. You've come into it and your first official acts as a company have been to alienate a huge portion of your market.
The good thing for you? YOU STILL HAVE TIME TO FIX IT.
Instead of joining mernetwork and acting INCREDIBLY UNPROFESSIONAL and arguing with people (FYI this forum is for discussing anything in the mermaid world and most especially tail makers. So get used to it) and ruining your reputation before your business has even gotten off the ground... (cuz I promise you mermaids are like elephants... we NEVER forget)
Simply remove the designs, move forward, and never copy someone else again. If you take inspiration from someone else's design simply message them and say "hey, we'd love to have your permission to do a version of your design". THE COMMUNITY AND YOUR CLIENT BASE LOVE TAIL MAKERS WHO GO OUT OF THEIR WAY TO BE FAIR TO THE COMMUNITY AND THOSE TAIL MAKERS GET MORE BUSINESS AND ARE SPOKEN HIGHLY OF.
You have a REAL chance here! Do you realize how awesome people will think you are if you just take accountability and do the right thing and move forward into the future? WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES I get it. And you may not have realized how big of a deal this is to people. Tail designs are so personal and people put so much of themselves into it.
So those are your options at the moment:
1.Recognize you just made a big mistake in the community, even if you dont feel like you did you have to at least recognize that by community standards you did. Maybe you were ignorant to that, maybe you weren't. It doens't matter. Just recognize you made a mistake, pull the designs, be sure to change how you do things in the future, and people will respect you for it and recognize you as a tail maker with standards who are willing to own up when they mess up. And they'll give you a chance.
2. Or, you can argue, lie, defend, play the ignorance card, AND THE COMMUNITY WILL NEVER FORGET YOU DID THAT AND MAKE IT THEIR MISSION TO MAKE SURE EVERYONE KNOWS IT. I guarantee you it'll affect your business and reputation.
It's not a threat, it is just what happens! If you don't believe me you should look up the companies that have been black listed. Guess what? They're all bankrupt with horrible reputations.
You seemed so eager to be my tail providers! But I can't in good conscious give loads of business and money to a company that has stolen designs from my friends, and come on our forum and insulted them. You may not care about my personal business. But you'll care about what I and others have to say about it :(
So please, reconsider all of this. Take some time. Think on it. YOU HAVE EVERYTHING TO GAIN AND EVERYTHING TO LOSE.
@Swimtails
You blocked me on Instagram because I defended Finfolk Productions who are my tailmakers and stated the truth.
As far as I'm concerned, I'm done with you.
We want to fix this.
I had a post similar to what Raina was about to say, but she's said it much better.
I have no pony in this race and I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on the lotus tail, but the clearly copied Dory tail was what swung it for me. It looks really bad. I'd say it would be your best bet to just let the lotus design issue go, at this point, as a gesture of goodwill. If you've got a team of creative designers then you'll have no problems coming up with tons of other awesome original ideas.
I agree this is getting way out of hand and we would like to speak with Pearlie Mae to fix this problem ASAP I gave her our private number.
There's really nothing to discuss. Drop the design, move on. It's really simple.
I agree with Raina and Ashmorelj. Maybe even just take the lotus design down, re-do it. and re-post it. What really made me not like the company was how harshly and rudely you responded to your possible clients. I get that most of the comments were accusatory, and some rude, but you are a BUSINESS and therefor in my eyes have zero right to even act so unprofessional and respond that way. I get that being accused of something you don't think you did triggers a reaction to lash out and defend yourself, which is fine. It's HOW you defended yourself that I have a problem with. The Tang tail was an obvious rip off, and you owned up to it and made amends. The lotus tail Is less obvious, but it looks like at the very least, whoever designed it took inspiration from that. You could have just put in the picture "inspired by Lotus Blooming", and been done with it. Who would that hurt anyway? Your customers will think you honest, and you would have patched any holes you made. Now, I'm all for second chances, but the people here in the mer community take a little effort to get back on their good side. I hope we can all come to a good conclusion.
We did. We lost this fight.
We took it down. This has gotten way out of hand. Honestly though we never saw her design. From now on to be safe we will post new designs here first and make sure all the merfolk are cool with it. We are truly sorry we did not intent to upset or hurt anyone
The only thing out of hand is how you keep making a new post for every sentence. You don't need to do that! It's not an instant messaging service and makes it very hard to follow the thread. Please, keep it all in one post when you can.
I hope you'll take my advice to heart. it's not a matter of losing a battle. It's a matter of doing right by the community. You need to change that attitude if you want things to work with people. Take a break. Refresh yourself. And come back and look at it with new eyes. You have a chance to fill a big market. You just gotta be a little more familiar with the community. perhaps look around the forum it'll help you get to know it! Good luck.
I was alerted that there was a design on instagram that was a direct ripoff of the tail I was commissioned to do. I responded. I was blocked, my comments removed, and I responded in the appropriate thread on Mernetwork. There's is no need to talk privately on the phone.
Your design looks like an experienced designer would comp after having seen Lotus Blossom's original sketch. Simply because your company name didn't have an account here until today doesn't mean you don't have access to the myriad resources here. You'd be foolish to be a tailmaker and not be here. There are plenty of people who lurk.
Okay, seems things are settling down.
Peace, everyone! :meditation:
We have removed out of courtesy. We honeslty never saw her design before. We are truly sorry. Do you suggest posting our new designer tails here first to get proper feedback from the mercommunity? Thanks for the advice
Lotus love?
Seriously call me I would like to speak with you
@swimtails
Do you even read messages??
Because you just have been told TWICE to stop making new posts for every sentence and they just keep on coming...
http://replygif.net/i/894.gif
I'm am replying from my phone. Not sure how it works
Are you on the Tapatalk app? If so, if you touch the post you are responding to, then select 'Quote', it will reference the post in quotes, along with your reply.
Thanks did I do it right this time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherielle
yeah, you got it!
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There is no need to do so if the design is truly yours, because most original designs do not resemble anything else so closely that there's going to be an uproar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swimtails
It's nice you took the design down, even if it's clearly just a reaction to Raina's compelling argument.
But I'll have you know I don't believe you haven't seen Lotus' design previously.
I have Tarot cards, see :p
Ryan, I feel as though if you actually think that the question here becomes "Are we allowed to create tails based on fish someone has already done" then the entire point of this mess has flown so far over your head that the crew of the ISS just looked out the window and went "What the hell was that?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Swimtails
Multiple designers and makers have all made tails based off of the same fish. We've seen this with Merbellas and Finfolk making Peacock Mantis Shrimp tails; Merbellas and Moo making lionfish tails, and I've lost count of how many people have designed and/or made tails based off of the Mandarin fish.
Nobody gives a damn whether two makers make a tail based off the same fish; it's nature, there's no copyright, yadda-yadda. You know why? Because each artist has their own interpretation of how to transfer details like this from one medium to another. If you'd bothered to read my analysis on Page 2 at all, you would have seen where I pointed out all of the very specific liberties that Finfolk chose for their Blue Tang tail to keep it true to the fish while still making it unique and their own; this included the addition of specific markings and colors that aren't present on the fish itself.
Your designer (Who I'm now intrigued about thanks to the intentionally vague distancing language you used when addressing their being "reprimanded") took ALL of these specific, unique twists to the design and ripped it off almost line. For. Line. And that's what people have a problem with.
Nobody's upset that you wanted to do a Blue Tang tail; they're upset because your designer couldn't be assed to do their flippin' job and plagiarized someone else's work. In artistic industries like this? That becomes a DANGEROUS liability for your company and people get fired INSTANTLY for that crap-- As your designer should have been.
And now, because of your employee choosing to steal someone else's design? Everything else your company produces is open to suspicion. Even if you didn't copy the Lotus design, the Blue Tang incident destroys a lot of your credibility, because to the outsider you've actively promoted stolen work once; who's to say you aren't doing it again?
If you want Swimtails to succeed, you need to learn to handle situations like this appropriately and as professionally as possible; which I personally feel you kind of dropped the ball on.
*raises hand* ooh! ooh! pick me! pick me!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tieri
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The Blue Tang incident was a miscommuncation and a mistake, We did have to terminate our designers employment becouse of this, although I ultimately take the blame and have spoken with the owners of FinFolk to make amends. Please consider that we never produced or sold any of those tails, it was purely a concept as many of our designs are at this stage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tieri
I am trying to learn and grow from this experience. I am torn about the best way to avoid situations like the Lotus Tail. I designed that myself, so I know it was not inspired by the previous sketch.
Please let me know what you suggest Tieri, would sharing our new concepts within this community be a good idea to avoid this situation.?
I really appreciate your honest feedback :)
Personally I'd like to see these because apart from the one you posted and Lotus_Bloomings sketches I am aware of one other lotus tail, and that's from a game you can get from the apple store and it's layered leaves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swimtails
I have never seen a lotus tail previously, and I spend a fair bit of time on Pinterest, Google and all the rest of it looking up inspiration because I like to draw tails.
Fair enough the tail she sent you was more distinctly different because of the scales. But the image that Pearlie posted with the 'stem' winding around the tail body is very close.
You can't say you haven't been rude. There were people sitting on the fence when we first started looking at your tails and then as soon as they saw your interaction with people on facebook/instagram whatever, they all agreed you were rude.
What you need to understand is that there are members on this site who are well known in the community, and people regularly do ask for their opinions. Honestly someone had to turn of their PM on here off so they could catch a break. You've been around for not even 4 months, chill. Little fish, Big pond. Carrying on like this can get you eaten alive. It happens. It's already happened at least once in the last few months. lets not see it happen again, sound good?
Well good riddance to a bad designer. Good luck with a new one!
Thanks AniaR, it's probably better that I keep a closer eye on new concepts anyway. Plus it's my favorite part !Quote:
Originally Posted by AniaR
You can certainly recover from this mistake with a little elbow grease and PR ;)