Aquariums

Studies show in person experience is Paramount to fostering empathy. In land locked places that's what an aquarium provides. It is hard to get anyone to care about an ocean they never see

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Originally Posted by Theobromine

Ok, I can see there are still a LOT of misconceptions about aquariums getting tossed around. I'm going to dispel as many of them as I can. I have degrees in biology and zoology and years of experience working in zoos and aquariums, as well as many friends and acquaintances who do, and I can tell you 100% that aquariums are VERY important tools for education and conservation. That is the primary mission of modern aquariums, they are NOT all about entertainment. That is a very outdated ideal and not something anyone in the zoo or aquarium field would support in this day and age, I can guarantee you.

First of all, for those who worry about the welfare of animals in aquariums, don't. Aquarium animals don't have to worry about predators, pollution, boat strikes, fishing/poaching, entanglement in ocean trash, starvation, stress and disease due to rising ocean temperatures, and many other dangers. They have an entire veterinary staff (normally on-site and/or on-call 24/7) specifically to cater to all their health and medical needs. They are fed the most complete and nutritious diets available, including specific vitamin supplements. Their health and wellbeing is monitored constantly by a staff of highly trained professionals. Their habitats are always being reviewed, improved, and expanded as much as possible to provide the healthiest and most natural environments available (and the technology for this has improved exponentially since the early days, and it continues to improve).

Animals are not "forced to perform" tricks. It is true that many animals are trained to do certain behaviors, but they are trained using positive reinforcement where they are rewarded with treats if they do the behavior, but NOT punished if they don't. These behaviors actually improve safety for both the animals and the people; most of them are specifically trained to improve ease of veterinary exams and procedures. For example, instead of forcing or restraining a seal or sea lion into a certain position to do a blood draw or give a vaccine or just do a health check, you simply ask it to do what you need (roll over, raise a flipper, etc.). Another important point is that these behaviors and interactions provide mental and physical stimulation and are therefore a positive experience for the animal. It works as a form of enrichment (which is provided in a variety of ways to all the animals to keep them stimulated). Yes, in the case of cetaceans and pinnipeds these behaviors are often worked into shows for the public, but the animals are not being exploited or harmed, and these shows are specifically used as an educational tool. Also, please keep in mind that if you're looking into a tank at an aquarium and thinking "this octopus looks bored AF" you are projecting a human emotion onto an invertebrate. That's an excessive amount of anthropomorphization (and I'm a huge animal lover myself).

People who work in aquariums are not grunt workers. Jobs in this field are HUGELY competitive and it is very common to be one applicant among hundreds, I can tell you this from my own personal experience as well as that of many friends and acquaintances. And these jobs don't even pay very well, nowhere near as well as they should, I can assure you. People don't go into the aquarium field for the money, they do it because they love it. Aquariums are staffed by highly trained, educated, and experienced aquarists who are deeply passionate about ocean conservation and education.

Aquariums benefit conservation both directly and indirectly. Directly, because there is a lot of marine biology and conservation-oriented research being performed at most of these institutions. There is so much that goes on behind the scenes that most casual visitors don't even see. Studies are conducted on breeding endangered species, for example, or ways to eradicate diseases (sea star wasting syndrome, coral black band disease, just to name a couple). Also, many aquariums organize research trips, beach cleanups, and animal census counts (such as the annual giant Pacific octopus census near where I live). It's not just trained scientists either; aquariums encourage citizen science and provide the tools and training to carry such things out.

Indirect conservation benefits are brought about by the education provided by aquariums. Each institution has an entire education department dedicated to conducting programs for both children and adults to learn more about the oceans and the animals that live there. By providing accurate scientific information as well as face-to-face encounters and hands-on experiences, aquariums get people excited about the oceans and therefore get them to care. Many, many young people are fascinated and inspired by being able to get up close and personal with live sea creatures that they would never otherwise encounter, so these resources help to create new generations of ocean scientists.

The argument that the same educational benefits can be provided by TV shows and the internet is one I encounter a lot, and unfortunately it is a very uninformed and idealistic viewpoint. I'll break it down:

First of all, have any of you even been paying attention to what's happening to the environment lately? Rising sea temperatures, ocean acidification, plastic pollution, sewage and chemical spills, vast drifting garbage islands, ghost fishing nets, overfishing, poaching, shark finning, seafloor dredging, boat and propeller strikes, navy sonar testing, oil drilling, and probably countless other factors I'm not even thinking of at the moment are ALL threatening the health of the oceans and the very existence of all marine species. These are HUGE problems that, tragically, are not going to just disappear any time soon (if ever). So many habitats are being destroyed and so many species are becoming endangered and even going extinct under our very noses, and if this trend continues then pretty soon there won't even BE wild sea creatures to make documentaries ABOUT. For many animals, aquariums are actually safe havens, or even last bastions for critically endangered species. Zoos and aquariums have a proven track record of actually preventing extinctions of quite a few different species, and the potential to save many more from extinction. Species Survival Plans carried out by accredited aquariums all over the US and the world implement breeding strategies for endangered species, focusing on maintaining genetic diversity and giving the species the best possible chance of survival.

Additionally, many aquariums (as others have mentioned) rescue and rehabilitate sick or injured marine life. Cetaceans, seals and sea lions, sea turtles, and manatees and dugongs ALL benefit from these rescue programs. I used to volunteer in the turtle hospital at the aquarium in Queensland and I've seen many turtles that were rescued that would otherwise have died. All of them were sickened or injured by human-induced causes such as boat strikes (damaged shells requiring repair), ingesting plastic bags (these cause intestinal blockages which cause floating syndrome and starvation), ingesting cigarette butts, trash entanglement, and injuries from fish hooks. Almost all of these turtles were eventually able to recover from severe injuries/illness that they would not have survived in the wild, thanks to the care of the aquarists and veterinarians at the turtle hospital. Without facilities that are adequately equipped and staffed to handle marine animals, a huge amount of sick or injured or injured wildlife would actually be condemned to death because there would not BE anywhere to treat them and nurse them back to health. In fact, there HAVE been instances of injured dolphins having to be euthanized by wildlife officials because of local laws that had banned keeping any cetaceans in captivity and therefore ruled out any aquariums being able to care for them. Let that sink in for a minute.

Another point about educational media....have you guys SEEN what passes for "educational" TV programming these days? Most TV shows nowadays are more about sensationalism, entertainment, and ratings than actually presenting facts. Think about Shark Week, which has falsified SO many documentaries that they actually interview scientists with leading questions, then completely rearrange the material to make it look like the scientists are studying zombie sharks. All of which is fiction presented as fact, all for the sake of entertainment. And the internet is no better. People go around spewing misinformation like facts and most people don't even question it. Anyone can write anything on the internet, unlike in aquariums where staff scientists and educational professionals are devoted to presenting accurate information based on actual research.

Honestly, I am sick to death of armchair activists and self-righteous people who vilify aquariums without even bothering to be fully informed. It doesn't help the cause you think you're supporting, it actually does the opposite and it denigrates all the work that aquarists and scientists devote their entire LIVES to. If you REALLY care about animals, and about the ocean, you should be SUPPORTING aquariums. The more money they receive from ticket sales and memberships, the better care their animals receive and the better their exhibits will be. If you really want to make a difference, don't spread misinformation, DO speak out against the real dangers to the ocean, such as oil drilling, fossil fuels, navy sonar testing, rampant overuse of plastics, seafloor dredging, shark finning, shark culls, and mass slaughter of wild cetaceans (such as what is happening not only with dolphins in Taiji but also with pilot whales in the Faeroe Islands). Knowledge is power and we CAN make a difference, but we have to focus on the right issues, and destroying organizations that provide such important education and conservation functions is not one of them.

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Preach :) I agree and love everything you said!

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I didn't see any insults or personal attacks in that first direct reply. Just pointing out tone and how it comes across. I think Theobromine speaks for a lot of us.

Sometimes on here- and I was guilty of it for years- we try to relate to every post even when we shouldn't. The only aspect I can speak to here is my personal opinion ( as asked, but I must understand it is my Opinion) and my experience as an educator which spans two degrees and professional experience. I can't back up the animal science. But I can certainly back up all the education end of things.

Echinida I think you're a bit like I used to be and can still be sometimes. You overuse mernetwork as a source of social life. And I am not trying to insult you, I am speaking from my own experience doing the same thing.

You post in almost every thread but a huge amount of the time it either doesn't involve you or you have nothing to contribute. I was the same way! ( hence my obnoxious amount of posts) for me I just wanted to know everyone. I wanted to be involved in everything. But like you, people started telling me criticism of how I came across.

I am not perfect but I am working on it. Now that I've stepped out and looked in I see a lot of drama starts from people just peanut- gallery-ing it.

You do come off dismissive of others points. It is OK if you don't agree but it doesn't mean they are wrong. I do find you talk like you're an expert in everything. Which I used to do a lot too.

I think it is good to just take a step back sometimes and question yourself, is it really something I should be involved in, and if so, to what degree?

I think me doing that has helped my image a lot, and made mernetwork a better experience for me.

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Well this got dramatic quickly. Not that I'm surprised. It is a bit of a hot topic.

To be blunt, yes, I think aquariums are very important and I will go so far as to say necessary.

I consider aquariums to be bastions; places of last hope for lots of different species. I don't even want to imagine the sheer devastation to our remaining species count if we were to completely do away with these places of safety and knowledge. I'd happily go into precise detail on my thoughts, but like Raina, Theobromine's very neatly covered pretty much everything I would have said (and doubtless worded it better).

Right.
Sorry folks for derailing this thread further.
I normally wouldn't, and I was prepared not to say anything more, but if I don't, it will probably leave a wrong impression.

First off, thank you Raina for your input.
We two have agreed on things and disagreed on others, but you have the decency to stay polite even when getting personal. Kudos to you.

Now, parts of this thread have not been about the topic, or a discussion of any sort, but just members venting about the way I post and my person in general.
The main complaint seemed to be that I dared post in this thread despite not presenting a master's thesis on everything I say, and lacking qualifications to express my opinion.

Let's look at what the thread starter intended with this thread:

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I would like to hear the community thoughts not to start drama or anything similar it's just to share opinions.

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So this is what I did.
If someone thinks they are the expert and resents everyone who dares do express an opinion differing from theirs, that's one thing.
It doesn't warrant insults and endless personal attacks.

I realize my first post under Theobromine's comes across as dismissive if one doesn't know I'm quoting SeaWorld, which uses the same arguments as most aquariums do
(I explained that in my next post).

I was enrolled in the University of Kiel, one of the two universities in Germany which offer sea-related courses, where I studied marine biology for 2 years (though it wasn't my main focus).
Students were required to work time in the adjoining aquarium, so excuse me if I don't roll over in awe as soon as someone waves a degree as a matter of proving themselves superior.

I didn't go into huge detail about how I came to my views because I have zero interest in discussing with Theobromine.
In fact, I have had her on ignore for a long time already because (funnily enough) she's one of the most aggressive and rudest posters on MN in my eyes.

I still read her first post thoroughly, and while she makes some good points, I happen to disagree with a few of them.
Hopefully I don't have to explain why I didn't respond to the long, rage-filled postings she made afterward
(Hint: it's NOT because I don't have arguments).

It might have been better to not respond to someone I have on ignore, even if I referred only vaguely to her post- it was obviously interpreted in a different way.
Or maybe not- no idea.
I put her on ignore after she called people disagreeing with her (not me) "arseholes" and other things as a blanket statement.

And this is going to be the last thing I'll ever say about this-
but I don't think this was drama until T. made one out of it.

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Originally Posted by AniaR

You post in almost every thread but a huge amount of the time it either doesn't involve you or you have nothing to contribute.

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Again, thank you for your insights.
I understand what you want to say, except for this.
I most certainly do NOT post in every thread.

I read only a few threads which sound interesting out of the entire forum.
If you regularly check the "Hottest topics" and "most active posters"-statistics, you know I haven't even been among the top ten posters for about a year or so.

If you think I almost never have anything to contribute, you're welcome to not read any of my posts.

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Again, thank you for your insights.
I understand what you want to say, except for this.
I most certainly do NOT post in every thread.

I read only a few threads which sound interesting out of the entire forum.
If you regularly check the "Hottest topics" and "most active posters"-statistics, you know I haven't even been among the top ten posters for about a year or so.

If you think I almost never have anything to contribute, you're welcome to not read any of my posts.

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To clarify, I wasnt saying that as a personal attack against you. I say it because I did it too and I see you doing it. I didn't say *every* I say almost every (AND MAYBE I should clarify to that to almost every "active" thread), and actually I do choose to not read a lot of your posts... along with a lot of threads for that matter ;) But if you look at the community stats you're one of the top frequent posters. (I check the stats a lot to try and self regulate myself so I don't over do it) In the past 2 weeks you've commented in over 15 different threads, (not post count, just threads.) which may not seem like a lot, but a lot of people tend to stick to smaller batches at a time. I am not even trying to criticize you about it, because I do the same thing. I get interested in a lot and go through loads of em. I usually click "what's new" and I used to reply in almost every single one. Now I just reply in a few. I am just letting you know it contributes to how people see you. So if you feel like the impression people are getting from you isn't accurate I think that's one of the reasons, I think not being as vocal about your qualifications may be another since that's come up a few times now, and I find with your tone of voice there's a cultural difference that can sometimes come off wrong way to people.

It's up to you whether or not you decide to change any of those things. I used to feel really defensive when I got these sorts of criticisms. I felt like, who was anyone to tell me how to use this site if I am not breaking rules? I felt like people were DEDICATED to misunderstanding me. But I took a break and just observed for a while. I realize people had some valid points. Did I change everything about myself? Obviously not. ;) we shoudlnt just change because others tell us to, but because we feel it is worthwhile. And do I slip up ? ohhh yup. But I am 100% not the same user on here that I was even 1 year ago, but especially 2 or 3 years ago.

And I would like to say too, I have never found any post from Theobromine previously to this that would make her cast as one of the rudest members of mernetwork. And I don't think others would see her that way either. And she and I have butt heads. But a lot of people do find you rude, there have been passive aggressive posts about it in other threads if you didn't see :/ . I felt like a lot of your tone made me angry so it was part of the reason why i just chose to stay out of a lot of the threads you were in and instead only replied really when you were in one of mine. I try to be unbiased and still support you when I agree with a statement you make, and I see you do that for me too and I appreciate it. SO whether it's tone, transparency, or people just getting a bit worn out from seeing so many of your posts... it's really up to you if you want to change anything or not. I know it well maybe hurt your feelings and make you feel defensive and that isn't my intention... I just feel like you were going to get a post like this from SOMEONE for a while now, because a lot of people have been brewing. So perhaps it's best we all just talk about it and you can decide what it means to you and if you want to do anything about it.

I just really hope you understand I am speaking as someone who has had the same kind of flack from the community, the same kind of posting habits, and who felt defensive about it for a really long time. Even people who I cant stand and disagreed with once made a point that I often elude to things instead of just saying them, which I 100% did and have tried to not do as often anymore because it was causing drama.

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Originally Posted by AniaR

To clarify, I wasnt saying that as a personal attack against you. I know it well maybe hurt your feelings and make you feel defensive and that isn't my intention.

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Nah, it's alright.

I have seriously no idea if I post too much and people are sick of seeing my posts.

It's a surprise if anything, because I was rather inactive the last months (I read very few threads and replied even less), and I certainly never made it to the most active posters list (which I often check to see who is active).
I posted more the last days because it's the weekend.
Under the week, I usually don't even read MN anymore because I'm so busy with other stuff.

And like you, I try to be unbiased.
I'll always speak up for someone who I think has made a good statement (or defend them if they're needlessly attacked) regardless of whether I like them or not.

Admittedly I'm often too lazy to explain myself profusely, even when I know people might get the wrong impression.
Especially if it's drama.
If someone starts name-calling, I'm out (and likely to ignore them in the future).


EDIT: Nevermind.

I just found out this whole affair here wasn't about the topic, or what I said, or how I said it.
There's a bunch of peeps in a drama thread I never read, who have been seething and raging about me for some time now.
They've been conspiring and congratulating each other when they managed to cause drama around me.

LOL. Kindergarden much?
I was half expecting them to start discussing their nose-pickings next.

Kassandra, I'm sorry this carp spread to your thread.
I had no idea this was going on- at least it shows me the people I have on my ignorelist are there for very good reasons.

I hope it didn't affect your experience on the site negatively.

Echidna, Theobromine, I respect and look up to you both. So I hope this isn't being nosy of me or driving the thread too far off topic.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.co...2272921888.jpg

I don't plan on wasting any more of my time arguing with Echidna because it's clear she doesn't want to learn anything. I'll provide a little bit of context for one of her statements, however, for people who haven't read previous threads. She says I'm "one of the most aggressive and rudest posters on MN" and I know exactly what she is referring to. There were two previous threads in which she posted her own extremely unscientific opinions (one about vaccines, one about bottled water) and was also very condescending and dismissive toward everyone there who disagreed with her (including both Raina and Iona). I posted some long, detailed comments refuting Echidna's incorrect assertions because I felt it was important for people to have the correct information. I also took the opportunity to present a lesson about some science basics and why science literacy is so important, PRECISELY so that people can be equipped to tell fact from fiction and not just rely on assumptions and biases. In one of those two threads, Raina also linked to this AWESOME article about why not everyone's opinions are correct, which I think is also 100% relevant here: http://www.houstonpress.com/arts/no-...pdated-7611752 If anyone is interested in seeing how those discussions went, I am quite happy to link back to both of those threads so you can all see for yourselves and decide who you think was more rude.

In both of those previous instances, I was emphatic and assertive but maintained civil language. I guess Echidna felt that I was rude and aggressive because I pointed out exactly why her assumptions were incorrect. Oh well. I would also like to point out the irony of Echidna's own description of herself in the recent Community Drama thread: "I'm pretty straightforward, which might be too cross for some". All I can say about that is, it seems like she can dish it out but she can't take it. And now I wash my hands of her.

One general statement I’d like to make: I’m not waving my degrees around in any attempt to make myself look better than everyone else, I am simply pointing out that I have a strong background in this exact subject; I’ve devoted many years of my life to study and experience in this area. And yes, I will admit that when someone is so completely dismissive of that, it IS pretty insulting and infuriating. However, my aim here is not to fight with anyone. I want to make it crystal clear that this is not just a matter of two differing opinions; I am presenting well-substantiated facts based on years of education and experience, and the other person is not. You can’t just make up your own facts because you don’t like the real facts. That’s just not how it works.

I do absolutely still plan to compile a list of references and further information on this subject for all those who are interested, I just want to make it the focus of a separate post (perhaps even a separate thread at this point, sorry Kassandra). I’ve also been out all weekend and I just got home and I’m tired and want to go shower :P However, in the meantime, one last thing. Please enjoy this hilarious clip of John Oliver laying down some truth bombs about scientific debates (the video is about climate change, but the same ideas apply to this thread as well). You don’t need people’s opinions on a fact! ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjuGCJJUGsg

Ok I'm sorry for what happened here and now I feel I'm like the goddess of chaos!



I must thank you all for sharing opinions and years of accomplished knowledge.



I wanted to learn why people say aquariums are a good thing and why not because on the internet there's to much mess about this thing especially after what happened with Sea World and the whole net seems to be filled with angry people saying that captivity is wrong in any way and not exposing in a clear way why.

Now I can happily say that not only I understood why aquariums can benefit not only for the research but also for animals but I also learned a lot of new important thing that made me decide that after completing my first degree I'll take marine biology 😊



But I also feel sorry because I wanted this thread to be a way to express different points of view without arguing but I knew clearly it was going to be hard not arguing.



Anyway I want to thank again all the people who contributed to this thread and helped me learn a lot of thing.



Now I know for what I want to stand and Theobromine I really would appreciate if you would like to share your informations with me about this subject I want to be conscious and informed to help protect what I love 😊



More I want to say thanks to this community because not all the people on this planet can say that they were directly helped by people from all around the world in their personal education 😊



So Echidna, Mermaid Cecelia, Ciriun, Mermaid Jessica Pearl, New York Mermaid, SeaGlass Siren, Raina, Sherielle, Mermaid Sandie, Theobromine, Saborigakusei, Mermaidofthelabyrinth, Dancing Fish and Mermaid Lorelei thank you very much indeed for what you did here in this thread for me now you're all in the list of people I will be thankful for empowering my education and opening my mind.

Kass, don't feel bad or sorry. You aren't responsible for others actions. I too was wondering a lot of these things!

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Wow, I've leanred so much thanks to this thread! Thanks for clearing up many of the things I was wondering about.

I do have a question still; how do you people feel about mermaids performing in Aquariums? There's a zoo about half an hour drive with a very nice aquarium and I'm thinking about getting my fishy butt over there and try to apply to be able to swim there. I would be the very first mermaid in the Netherlands to do that (if they are interested), but if it's harmful for the fish living there I have to skip the idea.

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Originally Posted by AniaR

Kass, don't feel bad or sorry. You aren't responsible for others actions. I too was wondering a lot of these things!

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Thank you Raina 😊

I was feeling bad only because when I decided to ask about aquariums I knew there was going to be drama but I thought that I wanted to know things clearly and I decided to still post it.

I don't like to argue and I imagine that also other people doesn't and it like "I made them argue by putting them in the conditions of doing it" but I swear I hadn't the intention!

#RESPECT to Raina for openly discussing your past problems with mernetwork.

I am also curious to know what people think about mermaids swimming in aquariums. I can't imagine it's very harmful for the sea life unless your tail is somehow disrupting the environment. Don't people actually go into to the tanks to feed many of the fish?

Yes, divers are used for feeding in some places and cleaning in most as far as I'm aware. I'm sure it wouldn't be disruptive in bigger tanks, but it probably depends on size.

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Originally Posted by Mermaid Crystal Shimmer

Wow, I've leanred so much thanks to this thread! Thanks for clearing up many of the things I was wondering about.

I do have a question still; how do you people feel about mermaids performing in Aquariums? There's a zoo about half an hour drive with a very nice aquarium and I'm thinking about getting my fishy butt over there and try to apply to be able to swim there. I would be the very first mermaid in the Netherlands to do that (if they are interested), but if it's harmful for the fish living there I have to skip the idea.

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What a great question! I know I would be terrified of knocking over some really nice coral or something with my tail. I'd also be concerned about a mermaid with a latex tail leaching junk into the water, but maybe that's not really a danger (silicone or fabric should be fine).

Also, isn't it really really COOOLD? It'd certainly take some getting used to!

Unrelated: Mermaid Crystal Shimmer, that is one beautiful tail! :) What a sweet video!

I'll start by saying that I haven't read all of the posts in this thread. However, I'd like to give my opinion on the matter, as per the OP's request.

I am very divided on the subject of animals in captivity in general, but I'll just talk about aquariums here.

On the one hand, I believe that aquariums are an amazing tool to increase passion and engagament of people with regards to the ocean. Increased ocean literacy is SO vital. We need to make people care as much (or even more!) about the ocean as they do about the rainforest, or space. They need to know that if we lose the oceans, we lose everything. Seeing these creatures close up and in person is SO different than seeing them on TV. It's just more captivating and more "real", especially today when CG is so prevalent and well done. TV can have a sense of "oh, that's not real" to it. And we all know how much misinformation, fear-mongering, and apathy there is on the internet and in meanstream media. I know for myself, going to aquariums greatly increased my desire to go into the marine sciences (I have a BSc in Marine Biology) and also expanded my focus beyond dolphins and made me also interested in other less 'charismatic' creatures. Same with when I volunteered for a Whale Watching company when I was 17. They worked with a conservation group and helped gather scientific information to aid the protection of the severely endangered North Atlantic Right Whale. That sparked my passion for right whales, which I probably otherwise wouldn't have gained. And it did it because I got to see these animals with my own eyes. Heck, a few years ago I got to see Great White Sharks in person when I went cage diving in South Africa. My opinions on sharks changed after seeing them close up, even though I have seen many documentaries etc. and already had somewhat of an appreciation for them. Seeing them in person, looking into their eyes, that increased my passion for their conservation.

Of course, on the other side of the coin are the downfalls of captivity. And I don't mean to make light of this side of things. The fact that we cannot replicated these creatures' natural habitat and the idea of keeping them for our own uses and entertainment. This is where I get morally confused. Where do we draw the line between selfish containment of the creatures and the education and research aspects that help protect them in their natural habitat? I don't have an answer for that.

I agree that it is a very individual thing. Each aquarium should be evaluated on its own to see which side of the line they sit on. I don't think we can lump them all together and either praise or condemn them.

I swim in an aquarium at Dalhousie but the animals are removed when I go in. Most mers in aquariums have loads of training so they don't disrupt the animals

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Kassandra, DON'T feel bad for starting this thread. If anything, this whole thing highlights the importance of sharing this information! Kudos to you!

As to swimming in aquariums, there was actually a whole thread about that a little while back, and Mermaid Cora from Reef HQ Aquarium in Queensland actually posted a REALLY detailed and insightful comment about it. I'll see if I can find that thread and link it here. For those who don't know, Cora works full time as an aquarist there (we actually went to the same university!) but also performs there as a mermaid, so she has a really good viewpoint of both sides.

KayNS, your point about ocean literacy is right on! Seeing such amazing creatures in real life gives you a feeling of connection that even the most wonderfully filmed documentary can never give you. As for your second point, about the morality of keeping animals in captivity, I actually addressed all of those questions in my first post in this thread :) But I'm also going to expand on those points and provide further information. I completely understand that a lot of people question the morality of captivity. I myself am 100% AGAINST animals being exploited for entertainment and improperly cared for, just to be clear. I'm a bleeding-heart animal lover, trust me. I've also worked in aquarium stores a couple of times and I'm that person who is more likely to tell you NOT to buy the fishes if I don't think your tank is big enough or that you don't know how to take care of them, haha. Believe me, I'm pretty much a crusader for animals being treated as well as possible.

So, I guess because this discussion is finally back on track and continuing in this thread (whew), I will continue to post information here. I'll probably break it up into a few different posts, though, to keep it easier to read and so I don't have to keep putting it off until I have the time to sit down and write one gigantic epic mega-post. Also, if any other biologists and aquarists on here want to weigh in with their experiences or add any information I may have missed, PLEASE do so! I certainly don't pretend that I know all there is to know and I LOVE to learn from other people and hear about their experiences!

Ok, first, I'll provide some background information about how aquariums (and zoos, for that matter) are regulated and accredited. All the statements I've already made about aquariums generally pertain to accredited institutions (non-accredited ones can be hit or miss and you kind of have to take them on a case-by-case basis, they're a little harder to evaluate and you can't make any blanket statements about them). The big regulating organization for zoos and aquariums in the US (and for some other countries) is Association of Zoos and Aquariums (AZA). Check out their website, as it provides a TON of information about how this works, but I'll summarize it here and quote a few parts. AZA conducts rigorous inspections and provides accreditation for all zoological institutions that seek AZA member status. As you can see on their Accreditation page, accreditation is "official recognition and approval of a zoo or aquarium by a group of experts. These experts, called the AZA Accreditation Commission, carefully examine each zoo or aquarium that applies for AZA membership. Only those zoos and aquariums that meet our high standards can become members of AZA." Maintaining AZA accreditation status is also an ongoing process, not just a one-time pass: "AZA accredited zoos and aquariums are constantly evolving and standards are continuously being raised. Each zoo or aquarium must keep up with these changes to remain AZA accredited. And to prove it, they must go through the entire accreditation process every five years. AZA believes that nothing is more important than assuring the highest standards of animal care and our accreditation process does just that!" Aquariums and zoos can definitely lose their accreditation if they fail to remain up to standards. In that case, they'll have to go through a lengthy review process to prove that they're worthy of re-accreditation. There is a list of currently accredited zoos and aquariums, and you can also look for the AZA logo on an institution's website or at the institution itself.

There are a lot of benefits that zoos and aquariums gain from being accredited. Here is a summary they provide of the benefits for aquariums. AZA provides professional development training and all sorts of seminars and conferences to promote better animal husbandry and innovation to help zoos and aquariums constantly improve their facilities. For example: "Animal husbandry practices ensure that the physiological, biological, psychological, and social needs of the animals cared for in AZA-accredited zoos and aquariums are addressed. Providing for good animal welfare encompasses both ethical and scientific responsibilities. AZA-accredited institutions have an ethical responsibility to ensure the well-being of the animals in their care. In addition, AZA-accredited institutions have a scientific responsibility to gain a greater understanding of the well-being of the animals in their care by advancing animal welfare science."

There is also a lot of emphasis on field conservation, reintroduction programs (check that page to see examples of species that have been successfully reintroduced into the wild and essentially saved from extinction), sustainability, conservation initiatives (including ocean conservation and marine mammal conservation), and conservation research. AZA institutions are also allowed to participate in Species Survival Plans (SSPs), which are comprehensive and carefully designed breeding programs, each one focused on a particular endangered species "to ensure the sustainability of a healthy, genetically diverse, and demographically varied AZA population". This actually means cooperation between multiple different zoos or aquariums so that animals can be transfered between them to produce the most beneficial genetic pairings (this prevents a genetic bottleneck, which can be a huge problem with restricted populations and leads to a loss of genetic diversity and therefore a less healthy population or species with a higher incidence of detrimental genetic conditions and higher probability of going extinct).

AZA also works in cooperation with IUCN (International Union for Conservation of Nature), which is another independent organization that assesses how threatened or endangered different species are, and works to find and provide environmental conservation solutions. The IUCN Red List is a really useful tool if you want to look up the conservation status of a particular species.

I hope that wasn't too much of an info-dump, but that's just an introduction, really. I'll come back later and post more stuff on other related topics!

Haha, and of course literally a second after I posted that, I glanced at Facebook and saw a story the AZA Fb page posted about this loggerhead sea turtle that got lifesaving cataract surgery at South Carolina Aquarium's sea turtle hospital: http://ht.ly/3528LJ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Theobromine

Kassandra, DON'T feel bad for starting this thread. If anything, this whole thing highlights the importance of sharing this information! Kudos to you!

As to swimming in aquariums, there was actually a whole thread about that a little while back, and Mermaid Cora from Reef HQ Aquarium in Queensland actually posted a REALLY detailed and insightful comment about it. I'll see if I can find that thread and link it here. For those who don't know, Cora works full time as an aquarist there (we actually went to the same university!) but also performs there as a mermaid, so she has a really good viewpoint of both sides.

KayNS, your point about ocean literacy is right on! Seeing such amazing creatures in real life gives you a feeling of connection that even the most wonderfully filmed documentary can never give you. As for your second point, about the morality of keeping animals in captivity, I actually addressed all of those questions in my first post in this thread :) But I'm also going to expand on those points and provide further information. I completely understand that a lot of people question the morality of captivity. I myself am 100% AGAINST animals being exploited for entertainment and improperly cared for, just to be clear. I'm a bleeding-heart animal lover, trust me. I've also worked in aquarium stores a couple of times and I'm that person who is more likely to tell you NOT to buy the fishes if I don't think your tank is big enough or that you don't know how to take care of them, haha. Believe me, I'm pretty much a crusader for animals being treated as well as possible.

So, I guess because this discussion is finally back on track and continuing in this thread (whew), I will continue to post information here. I'll probably break it up into a few different posts, though, to keep it easier to read and so I don't have to keep putting it off until I have the time to sit down and write one gigantic epic mega-post. Also, if any other biologists and aquarists on here want to weigh in with their experiences or add any information I may have missed, PLEASE do so! I certainly don't pretend that I know all there is to know and I LOVE to learn from other people and hear about their experiences!

Ok, first, I'll provide some background information about how aquariums (and zoos, for that matter) are regulated and accredited. All the statements I've already made about aquariums generally pertain to accredited institutions (non-accredited ones can be hit or miss and you kind of have to take them on a case-by-case basis, they're a little harder to evaluate and you can't make any blanket statements about them). The big regulating organization for zoos and aquariums in the US (and for some other countries) is Association of Zoos and Aquariums (AZA). Check out their website, as it provides a TON of information about how this works, but I'll summarize it here and quote a few parts. AZA conducts rigorous inspections and provides accreditation for all zoological institutions that seek AZA member status. As you can see on their Accreditation page, accreditation is "official recognition and approval of a zoo or aquarium by a group of experts. These experts, called the AZA Accreditation Commission, carefully examine each zoo or aquarium that applies for AZA membership. Only those zoos and aquariums that meet our high standards can become members of AZA." Maintaining AZA accreditation status is also an ongoing process, not just a one-time pass: "AZA accredited zoos and aquariums are constantly evolving and standards are continuously being raised. Each zoo or aquarium must keep up with these changes to remain AZA accredited. And to prove it, they must go through the entire accreditation process every five years. AZA believes that nothing is more important than assuring the highest standards of animal care and our accreditation process does just that!" Aquariums and zoos can definitely lose their accreditation if they fail to remain up to standards. In that case, they'll have to go through a lengthy review process to prove that they're worthy of re-accreditation. There is a list of currently accredited zoos and aquariums, and you can also look for the AZA logo on an institution's website or at the institution itself.

There are a lot of benefits that zoos and aquariums gain from being accredited. Here is a summary they provide of the benefits for aquariums. AZA provides professional development training and all sorts of seminars and conferences to promote better animal husbandry and innovation to help zoos and aquariums constantly improve their facilities. For example: "Animal husbandry practices ensure that the physiological, biological, psychological, and social needs of the animals cared for in AZA-accredited zoos and aquariums are addressed. Providing for good animal welfare encompasses both ethical and scientific responsibilities. AZA-accredited institutions have an ethical responsibility to ensure the well-being of the animals in their care. In addition, AZA-accredited institutions have a scientific responsibility to gain a greater understanding of the well-being of the animals in their care by advancing animal welfare science."

There is also a lot of emphasis on field conservation, reintroduction programs (check that page to see examples of species that have been successfully reintroduced into the wild and essentially saved from extinction), sustainability, conservation initiatives (including ocean conservation and marine mammal conservation), and conservation research. AZA institutions are also allowed to participate in Species Survival Plans (SSPs), which are comprehensive and carefully designed breeding programs, each one focused on a particular endangered species "to ensure the sustainability of a healthy, genetically diverse, and demographically varied AZA population". This actually means cooperation between multiple different zoos or aquariums so that animals can be transfered between them to produce the most beneficial genetic pairings (this prevents a genetic bottleneck, which can be a huge problem with restricted populations and leads to a loss of genetic diversity and therefore a less healthy population or species with a higher incidence of detrimental genetic conditions and higher probability of going extinct).

AZA also works in cooperation with IUCN (International Union for Conservation of Nature), which is another independent organization that assesses how threatened or endangered different species are, and works to find and provide environmental conservation solutions. The IUCN Red List is a really useful tool if you want to look up the conservation status of a particular species.

I hope that wasn't too much of an info-dump, but that's just an introduction, really. I'll come back later and post more stuff on other related topics!

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Thank you so much Theobromine!
I'm so excited to learn as much as possible from you! 😊

Thanks for all the info, Theobromine. I feel we're on the same page.

P.S. I do NOT understand why Halifax, Nova Scotia doesn't have an aquarium... but that's a whole other rant, right AniaR?

You're welcome, Kassandra and KayNS! I agree, I think we're all on the same side here. That's why I feel it's so important to share this information, because as mermaids, we ALL care very deeply about the state of the oceans and making sure that animals are safe and happy! It's just so important to know not to let our emotions get the better of us to the point where we can't make informed decisions. The more informed we are, the better we can help educate others, and the better everyone can make intelligent decisions that will truly benefit the oceans and the creatures that we love.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KayNS

P.S. I do NOT understand why Halifax, Nova Scotia doesn't have an aquarium... but that's a whole other rant, right AniaR?

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I plan on building one when I'm rich lol

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Theobromine

As to swimming in aquariums, there was actually a whole thread about that a little while back, and Mermaid Cora from Reef HQ Aquarium in Queensland actually posted a REALLY detailed and insightful comment about it. I'll see if I can find that thread and link it here. For those who don't know, Cora works full time as an aquarist there (we actually went to the same university!) but also performs there as a mermaid, so she has a really good viewpoint of both sides.

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Thanks! I'm not a lot online here, so I must have missed it. I want to be informed as much as I can before applying at the aquarium.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AniaR

I plan on building one when I'm rich lol

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

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LMAO it'll be mermaid accredited

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Theobromine

You're welcome, Kassandra and KayNS! I agree, I think we're all on the same side here. That's why I feel it's so important to share this information, because as mermaids, we ALL care very deeply about the state of the oceans and making sure that animals are safe and happy! It's just so important to know not to let our emotions get the better of us to the point where we can't make informed decisions. The more informed we are, the better we can help educate others, and the better everyone can make intelligent decisions that will truly benefit the oceans and the creatures that we love.

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I completely agree!

Thanks a lot ❤

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Echidna

Nah, it's alright.

I have seriously no idea if I post too much and people are sick of seeing my posts.

It's a surprise if anything, because I was rather inactive the last months (I read very few threads and replied even less), and I certainly never made it to the most active posters list (which I often check to see who is active).
I posted more the last days because it's the weekend.
Under the week, I usually don't even read MN anymore because I'm so busy with other stuff.

And like you, I try to be unbiased.
I'll always speak up for someone who I think has made a good statement (or defend them if they're needlessly attacked) regardless of whether I like them or not.

Admittedly I'm often too lazy to explain myself profusely, even when I know people might get the wrong impression.
Especially if it's drama.
If someone starts name-calling, I'm out (and likely to ignore them in the future).


EDIT: Nevermind.

I just found out this whole affair here wasn't about the topic, or what I said, or how I said it.
There's a bunch of peeps in a drama thread I never read, who have been seething and raging about me for some time now.
They've been conspiring and congratulating each other when they managed to cause drama around me.

LOL. Kindergarden much?
I was half expecting them to start discussing their nose-pickings next.

Kassandra, I'm sorry this carp spread to your thread.
I had no idea this was going on- at least it shows me the people I have on my ignorelist are there for very good reasons.

I hope it didn't affect your experience on the site negatively.

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Sorry for the double post but this is for the edited part:



Don't worry!

It's not about the thread it belongs to the whole community so that everyone has the chance to learn what I was lucky enough to learn thanks to who contributed to it.



I just felt bad for what happened because as I said I don't think people love to argue and the moments when it happens especially if it's about yourself.

mermaid lexi has her own tank ;D she uses that as her aquarium. no fish in it.

Quote:

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EDIT: Nevermind.

I just found out this whole affair here wasn't about the topic, or what I said, or how I said it.
There's a bunch of peeps in a drama thread I never read, who have been seething and raging about me for some time now.
They've been conspiring and congratulating each other when they managed to cause drama around me.

LOL. Kindergarden much?
I was half expecting them to start discussing their nose-pickings next.

Kassandra, I'm sorry this carp spread to your thread.
I had no idea this was going on- at least it shows me the people I have on my ignorelist are there for very good reasons.

I hope it didn't affect your experience on the site negatively.

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Honestly Echidna? Yes, a good deal of what was said to you on this thread was about this thread. You had some opinions and statements that could be detrimental to a person's understanding of aquariums and how they are run and it was deemed necessary by other members to call you on it. Such statements as -

Quote:

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I doubt the value of people gawking at animals through a glasspane (as opposed to on a TV screen ) is that much more valuable than the ethical and natural treatment of a creature.

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Though bland in appearance because of your wording, you've made aquariums out to be unethical centers used purely for people to gawk at ill tended animals. As others have stated, this is incorrect.

Quote:

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It's true that humans have made life in the wild very difficult and exterminate entire species every single day.

That's not an argument for catching wild animals and keeping them for amusement, unless it is indeed done for conversation.
I'm not getting into the trick-discussion here, especially not with someone who is employing SeaPrison lingo and SeaPrison propaganda
"it's not a trick, it's a behaviour"- you can call it a banana, doesn't make it a banana dudes.

"Animals live far longer in capivity than in the wild"- often a lie that has been exposed a long while ago
"They don't do the behaviour because they have to, but because they really want to!!"

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Quote:

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Life in the wild today is hard for animals, and it's humanity's fault entirely.
One should make up for that with efforts to make life in the wild easier again, not imprison what remains and call it a day.

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Would this not be all the MORE reason to keep some animals in captivity? If we humans truly are 'exterminating entire species every single day', and it's plain that we won't be able to fix the planet overnight, should we not be caring for some small bastions of these animal populations?
Also, your wording in most of your posts (both on this thread and not) when discussing something you disagree over can come across as exceedingly condescending. Whether this is on purpose or not, people are right to get tired of it.


As for the other parts of your edited post, please just stop it. Sure, people might be upset at you and that's their right. To call them kindergartners who pick their noses is both rude and not in any way helpful to your image. Perhaps engaging them in a more mature manner would change the way that they view you. As for conspiring against you, seriously? Where did you even get that from? People are airing their grievances about you. This doesn't make them conspirators. It simply makes them people who have reached their limit with something, in this case you.

Honestly, I'm really sorry that this much drama has cropped up, mostly because it has made finding relevant topics more difficult. However, I do think that in the majority of the cases listed, you were in the wrong. Does this make me a nose-picking kindergarten conspirator? Fine if that's so. I hope you possibly take something from all of this and know that most of us don't mean you harm. We're just tired.

Lorelei :thumbs up::clap::hug::highfive::cheerleader::pearl::hail:

yes!!!!!
also I would like to specifically point out the "Animals live longer in captivity" statement. I in my personal experience have heard of only one species that doesn't live longer in captivity. I'm not speaking for every animal because i can assure you I know little to nothing about aquatic animals and pachyderms. But saying that it's false is a flat out lie.

:bulldozer:Sorry mods but I had to reply...

why not just make a separate post instead of sneakily going back and editing (something people might not see) your original?

Quote:

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I just found out this whole affair here wasn't about the topic, or what I said, or how I said it.
There's a bunch of peeps in a drama thread I never read, who have been seething and raging about me for some time now.
They've been conspiring and congratulating each other when they managed to cause drama around me.

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No actually, the drama thread came after. I TOLD you there were some comments directed at you in other threads in terms of how you word things and come across. When I said:

Quote:

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But a lot of people do find you rude, there have been passive aggressive posts about it in other threads if you didn't see :/

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Quote:

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I just feel like you were going to get a post like this from SOMEONE for a while now, because a lot of people have been brewing

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It's not conspiracy. I told you, the way you come off in posts is wearing people out. So it boiled over here, and it boiled over there. The affair was Exactly about the topic, and exactly about how you said your points. Every reply here AND there is about that very thing. Literally. The way you come across. Which I think we talked about enough. Do you really think it's just a whole bunch of mermaids with nothing better to do than pretend as part of some conspiracy that you come across poorly on the internet? I mean... really?

Girl, you're swimming right down the river I went, and I hate to tell you there's a big water fall crash coming soon if you don't turn tail and swim up stream! Save yourself the epic crash because I can tell you; it takes a lot to come back from.

Ok I'm trying to get back on topic!





Someone shared this on my Facebook it's and article from last year about India's prohibition to keep in captivity any kind of cetacean for public shows.





Here it is the link:





http://peacefulwarriors.net/india-de...hows-banned-2/








Now in my opinion this was a great decision as this can prevent to have the same situation of SeaWorld and if I understood well this prohibition doesn't touch research and rehabilitation programs, even though it doesn't let anyone see the exemplars in the tanks not even during their natural behaviors.





In this way also aquariums lose their right to self-sponsoring themselves without guests (I mean aquariums like Clearwaters that became famous for its rehabilitation program for dolphins thanks to loads of guests coming from all over only to see Winter and Hope).





So what do you think about it?



In my opinion this can be a good alternative to prevent the abuse of cetacean captivity with the excuse of the research so that only interested people can do research, but at the same time I feel this can give a stop to the research because only private corporations will detain the main part of the research's result and I don't know if this can be good for the international community and the research in general.

I thought this might be relevant to the post but here is a pretty good alternative people are working on.
virtual reality aquariums
full page of info is here: http://www.ceta-journal.net/stop-kee...is-the-future/

Virtual cetaceans would be awesome! Even better if they can work in some nice 3D tech. Ooh, and make it a touch screen so you can 'pet' them! And why limit it to dolphins? I want to get up close with some life sized virtual whales! And while I'm dreaming, how about throwing in some marine reptiles, too? I know there are some great models of those already.

I'm picturing something like Endless Ocean, but on at least three walls or one big concave one, maybe ceiling as well. Then you could watch them swim around you while you play with settings to choose what you want to be in the aquarium at any given moment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ciriun

Virtual cetaceans would be awesome! Even better if they can work in some nice 3D tech. Ooh, and make it a touch screen so you can 'pet' them! And why limit it to dolphins? I want to get up close with some life sized virtual whales! And while I'm dreaming, how about throwing in some marine reptiles, too? I know there are some great models of those already.

I'm picturing something like Endless Ocean, but on at least three walls or one big concave one, maybe ceiling as well. Then you could watch them swim around you while you play with settings to choose what you want to be in the aquarium at any given moment.

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Holy fins why didn't we think about that?
I think this is the most wonderful idea ever! *.*

I want an aquarium like that now!!! 😆

So...I think a high-tech virtual aquarium does sound like a very cool idea in some ways, but in the interest of maintaining this as an educational thread, I'd like to point out that a virtual aquarium would never be able to actually replace a zoological collection of living creatures. There are many problems a virtual aquarium would not be able to solve:

1. Research. The research that is conducted in an aquarium facility provides immeasurably valuable information about physiology, behavior, and life histories, and much of this information is useful if not downright necessary for effective conservation strategies. For example, how can we protect a certain species unless we know its food preferences, habitat preferences, behavior, and reproduction strategies? Many marine species are actually far too difficult to thoroughly study in the wild, due to scarcity, restricted range, or remote (or deep) habitats that are difficult to even reach. And building off of this point, how could you even program realistic virtual animals unless you have done enough research to become VERY familiar with all of their characteristics? You can't.

2. Captive breeding. Obviously, you can't breed virtual animals. As I've mentioned before, aquariums participate in Species Survival Plans that help ensure the continued survival of a LOT of different species. No aquariums, no SSPs. And also no safe haven for animals that would be facing massive threats from habitat destruction, pollution, overfishing, poaching, rising sea temperatures and ocean acidification, etc. And while of course it's still critically important to do everything we can to reduce these threats, there is just no overnight solution.

3. Rescue and rehabilitation. Many aquariums are able to take in rescued marine wildlife and rehabilitate it through the expert care of highly trained animal care and veterinary staff. If we were to eliminate these facilities, injured wildlife that people find would have no place to go and nobody who would be properly trained and experienced in caring for them and treating their medical issues. Without care and medical attention, most injured wildlife would sadly die.

I'm not trying to shoot anyone down, I'm just trying to make sure everyone is thinking critically about these issues and considering ALL the implications of certain actions. I do think a virtual aquarium could be a really cool educational tool (especially as technology would be a lot more portable and less stress-prone than live animals) but it could never be used in place of an actual aquarium.

As for the article Kassandra posted about India banning dolphin captivity and dolphin shows, I'm a little bit divided in my opinion on this one, so let me explain. I do think that recognizing dolphins as highly intelligent beings capable of complex thought and emotion IS a good precedent to set. I definitely don't support keeping them in captivity for the sole purpose of entertainment. However...I do also worry about there being a precedent set for politicians and lawmakers deciding that they know better about animal behavior/physiology than the actual experts who devote their lives to studying and caring for them and working on conservation efforts. It's a slippery slope. We already have enough politicians who try to legislate on scientific issues while ignoring ALL the actual evidence presented by scientists...

So consider this case study of a dolphin that was found stranded in the UK with a severe sunburn. The injury would have been easy for a veterinarian to treat but would have led to a painful and life-threatening infection if left untreated. Due to a lack of adequate facilities, there was nowhere for the dolphin to actually be taken for treatment, so it was instead euthanized by wildlife officials. Now, I will say that they don't link to an actual news article about this particular dolphin so I haven't yet been able to find the source and determine how true it is (though from my reading it is true that laws were passed in 1985 that eventually led to dolphin facilities going out of business and there are currently no captive dolphins in the UK). HOWEVER, even if we were to assume this story as fictional, it is not the slightest bit far-fetched and still provides a clear example of what WILL happen if well-meaning but ill-informed continue to pressure governments into outlawing cetacean captivity. The closing line of the article I linked to is "Without the proper facilities and their expertly trained staff, animals are left to suffer and die." I want everybody here to understand the truth of that.

Another issue with attempting to force all aquariums and marine parks to immediately free all of their cetaceans is that it is NOT that simple. You can't just dump an animal out in the wild and expect it to not be intensely stressed out, or to immediately know how to survive and hunt and avoid predation and other dangers. Many of the cetaceans currently in captivity were actually BORN in captivity (remember what I said about SSPs), and were never taken from the wild in the first place. Learning how to survive in the wild isn't completely instinctual. Much of it has to be learned from parents or other adults (there are many many examples of all different species having to be extensively conditioned and prepared for the transition from captivity to wild). Freeing a large wild animal is a long, involved, expensive process, and even when these measures are taken, there is still no guarantee of the transition being successful. I'm sure everyone here is familiar with at least the name of Keiko, the orca that got so famous for starring in Free Willy? After the success of those movies, people all over the world started petitioning to actually free Keiko, assuming the real life story would have a happy ending like the movies did. Many people don't realize that Keiko never properly re-integrated with the wild orcas, instead seeking out human contact, and he eventually died about 18 months after his release. It's a very sad story and it's definitely not how any of us want to see these stories play out.