For example her attempt at yellow face. ��☕️
For example her attempt at yellow face. ��☕️
I was actually referring to a few of the comments from earlier in THIS thread about the use of cultural hair styles and costumes in relation to appropriation. That is called stereotyping and it is what people use to poorly portray another culture. Just like Japanese kimono are used to portray Japanese people. And the box braids are used to portray black people. The fact is, stereotypes were used to portray Hannah as a black goddess. That is what cultural appropriation is based around. It is entirely relevant. But thank you for your comment.
Did you actually watch the 3 videos?? That is what these discussions are about. Mers of colour aren't running around stereotyping people in the community, this is pretty much the first time they've ever spoken up. That's why your comment is undermining.
Those comments you're referencing are specifically another thread. The posts can be found here: http://mernetwork.com/index/showthre...%29%29/page112
You can also find more in several other threads including one I started. Plenty of examples of how the mers here know not to stereotype.
Momo you're such a beauty. As a Colored Mer (I'm native american) this was a very much needed video and thank you for putting yourself forward. Like the LARP community, the Mer community is alot of fun and amazing, but its multicultural person of color representation can be lacking. It's something to be worked on and speaking up is a great way to kickstart it. I'm proud to be a mer with you.
PS
Thank you for making my amazing top it looks FABULOUS in the video <3
For the particular example that I was talking about, it just would have felt more respectful and aware, and acknowledging her realization of what was going on, from my perspective, if she had said "they wanted to use me, and I didn't even realize..." and then she stopped to listen, instead of that she "more embodied the qualities of the role" and DIDN"T stop to listen to why anyone was making a big deal about it.
(edited to take out the million words to say- I deeply understand the many aspects of, for example, locks. Taken out, 'cause- why mention it? BUT)
I don't know her story, and the locks didn't necessarily seem as offensive to me until I read her perspective, because I felt that it really was taking pretty pieces of whatever cultures, separate from their meaning.
exactly.Quote:
it just would have felt more respectful and aware, and acknowledging her realization of what was going on, from my perspective, if she had said "they wanted to use me, and I didn't even realize..." and then she stopped to listen, instead of that she "more embodied the qualities of the role" and DIDN"T stop to listen to why anyone was making a big deal about it.
At no point have I ever said a mer on here has been steroetyping? That isn't the point I am making at all. I am in full support of the fact that they are speaking up for themselves. I encourage all people to speak up when something isn't right. And I wasn't undermining anything Raina. I am stating that steroetyping and appropriating any culture is a bad thing. That shouldn't just apply to the situation of someome portraying a black character. The title of the thread even says colour AND culture. I would assume that the points Momo made stand true for any culture and the use of their items, costumes, rituals, and beliefs. My point was directed at the people who call out cultural appropriation where they actually don't know the person.
I will say it again, this situation with Hannah portraying a character who should never be anything but black, is wrong. I am not disputing that.
Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk
The last point you made about people calling out cultural appropriation when you don't know the person was discussed in a other thread. Most of us know not to judge (we're a bunch of adults in tails who are we to judge lol)
Assuming by now everyone knows Hannah. She also attempted to portray an Asian person by asking if anyone knew how to do yellow face. She is not even remotely Asian �� for some reason I feel that everyone is forgetting that point? She isn't just trying to be black here. She's appropriating natives and Asians.
LOL!Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaGlass Siren
I think you're being overly defensive of my comments honestly. My replies are to your comment in which you saidQuote:
Originally Posted by Sapphire Mermaid
I reminded you that it didn't apply in this specific situation, and didnt warrant the warning since we've already discussed it an length and could be undermining to the current discussion.Quote:
All I want anyone who has read this to take from what I have written is that not everyone you think is culturally appropriating, actually is. You don't know their family history, you don't know their identity. Please just be kind and ask nicely before you scream appropriation at them.
^ which isn't, this discussion. And has been discussed elsewhere. It's like coming into a thread about violence against women and reminding people that not all men do that. Sure. but right now we're talking about those who do. Like how in this conversation, we're not talking about people wrongfully stereotyping out of ignorance and assuming someone is appropriating. We are talking about someone who did and the community's response to that.Quote:
My point was directed at the people who call out cultural appropriation where they actually don't know the person.
If you don't understand my point by now, I dont think I can make it any clearer. So I guess I'm done.
lol I suck at technology and quoted the wrong postQuote:
Originally Posted by merwandering
But is there ever a time that yellowface WOULDN'T be appropriation? Do you really have to know anything more about the situation to call that one?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapphire Mermaid
^ that!
No, there is never a time when yellow face is acceptable. If you read my earlier comment, that was a reference to my personal experiences within my cultures growing up.
This is exactly my point. It doesn't just apply to the black mer community, and these points should be applied everywhere. No culture should be appropriated.
Raina, in every single thing I have posted I have agreed that this situation is blatant appropriation and I don't agree with any of the decisions that allowed this to happen. I am also allowed to add to that by saying that we, as humans, have to be careful about when and where we point the finger, though. I am not undermining anything in this thread by saying that. I am allowed to have a conversation by saying that it happens in all cultures, but don't assume when you see it. That is the entire point of having open and honest discussions about issues like this. In this case, Yes, it is most definitely out of line and is definitely appropriation, but that won't always be the case, even if it is seen as that way. If I want to remind people to not take everything on face value for every case of appropriation we see, I am allowed to do that, even if you think it isn't relevant or necessary. It is part of the conversation about appropriation and everything that goes with it. If you have talked about it on another thread as well, that's great. It is important to discuss every aspect of these issues when you can because everyone needs constant reminders that this happens. Just because it happens in one case, doesn't mean you stop talking about the ones where it doesn't happen. Just like with police. Yes, not all of them are good. But if we only talk about how bad they are when bad things happen, it creates negativity for all of them. Again, YES. THIS IS A BAD SITUATION AND I DO NOT SUPPORT ANY OF THE ACTIONS TAKEN BY THE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THE DECISION MAKING FOR THIS. In saying that, I am also allowed to point out that it doesn't always happen that way. Open discussions always lead to better resolutions that closed ones.
It is also great that you have had a conversation with Hannah about this. Hopefully she starts to understand that this is a huge issue and people are upset about it.
Editing bc OMG not thinking about the can of worms I DONT want to open.
But I think that was kind of her point, as far as the context, sometimes interjecting with a qualifying statement can do so much to damage focus on the magnitude of the issue at hand. It takes away from the salience of the specific conversation, to point out exceptions not relevant to the situation.
Merwandering, I'm simply amazed by all of your posts. While you're fairly new to MerNetwork, you've been doing nothing but giving us all your incredible insight and knowledge, whether it's in tailmaking or purchasing, or other matters, like this topic of cultural appropriation. Thank you for all that you do here on MN. :)
I follow Hannah on Instagram, and she does have a lot of posts using bits and pieces from other cultures, whether it's in what she's wearing or the way she has her makeup. As a makeup artist, I look at anyone like a canvas to be decorated, no matter their skin color. As a side note, I have always had a ton of admiration for Indian outfits and makeup, and even studied Hinduism in ninth grade. My project got a seal of approval from an Indian student :)
I just don't see how someone could, in a figurative sense, take a cultural piece out of context; just pluck a pretty piece from somewhere in the world without knowing anything about where it came from. I'm a big history nerd, so if I want to wear something from a different culture, I make dang sure I know all about it! It's really hard to watch people be so blind when it comes to something that is sacred to someone else. To me, it feels like when my sister, who always talks about Satan, demons, etc., wears a necklace with pentacles all over it, and then tells me to stop looking at religious symbols (from my religion) in a religious sense :headdesk:
I am not trying to take anything away from the conversation. Momo literally says in her video she wants to hear ALL of the comments.Quote:
Originally Posted by merwandering
I know it happens, I know it is shit, and I know it needs to stop. I was raised with the spiritual belief that if you continue to look at only negative, then you become the negative. That is how racism, discrimination, and ignorance are bred on all levels. When you are dealing with a situation like this, you need to be aware of every aspect of the whole conversation. You don't get anywhere by just seeing only the negative and refusing to think of the positive. When you look at any turning point in history, the whole story is balanced. There are negatives, but for every one of those, there is a positive. Germans helping allied soldiers in WW2. White people helping black people in the 60's. Christians and Catholics speaking out against homophobia. It is f*****g horrible that Hannah has chosen to portray a black goddess and made a very uninformed decision (not the first from what I gather) about another culture. It would be devastating to so many if this issue were to become completely negative as it is such a positive movement. Yes, we have to take the bad shit that goes with it, but take the good as well. Don't say it isn't relevant, because every aspect of this movement is relevant.
I do think you are coming from a place of love, which is why I just want to point out this aspect, using Raina's example
if I said "A man attacked me and now I hate men!" it would be relevant to say- "you know, I hate that you had a bad experience with men, but men in general are not bad"
If I said "A man attacked me and I am angry at *him*", I honestly think it would be very hurtful for you to say "men, in general, are not bad", because you are kind of glazing over what I'm saying. And what I'm saying is that I am hurt. And it is important. And that's what I'm trying to talk about for a minute.
She's saying, this specific thread was created because people were hurt.
edit: I guess more accurate to say, in this instance, "a man attacked me, and I am angry about this specific act"
Mermaid Whisper thank you so much! It sounds like you care a lot<3Quote:
Originally Posted by Mermaid Whisper
I probably need to talk less, lol, because I get a little all over the place when I'm multitasking
which is always:(
but I do care:)
I haven't glazed over anything that has been said here. I know people are hurting. I know people are pissed off. And I am saying they have every right to be. I haven't said that no one can feel hurt by this. I would be worried if people said they weren't offended by it. I am offended by what has happened. A large part of my extended family is African. No one should take their culture and change it for the wider market. I am fuming that she would accept something so significant without researching it and understanding it.
I also don't want to see people starting to generalise to every time and situation when they see of someone representing another culture.
What I am saying here, in short and to use your wording, I hate that this is happening and I wish the world would come to a greater understanding of all cultures. But please don't think that this is what happens every time in every situation, because it isn't. The world is changing and growing faster than ever before and people are becoming more and more educated on these issues. If we want people to continue to learn, we need to talk about all of it, negative AND positive.
Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk
I will just say this, and then call it agree to disagree:
I have soooo much the same tendency. I go into the mode of really trying to help examine all aspects of an issue for that exact purpose. But sometimes I catch myself or end up deleting a post because sometimes after I say it, I realize that while it was 100% true, the exact specifics of the context made it not the right place in the conversation to say it.
I was on the receiving end of that this week- I posted something (unrelated to this subject, and not on this forum) and someone replied to my post speaking their truth, something that was important to them, and well meaning, but it hit so hard that it made me cry.
I mean, it made me question whether they at all got where I was coming from
It felt disrespectful to what I was saying.
And I have to constantly watch that, while I hope people know that I am coming from a place of being constructive, that I am listening more than I am talking, and I am attentive enough to the exact context to know, in this exact moment of this exact conversation- is this statement helping in the big picture? And then I try to really think about where someone else is coming from if they say that, from their perspective, it isn't.
Mermaid Momo, you're raising some very valid concerns.
I was quite active in the thread revolving around the dolphin drive hunts. I remember that I was away from the forum for a while only to come back and discover that someone had went completely off the rails in that thread and said a lot of horrible things. "What the hell happened here?" I thought to myself as I was sifting through the post trying to figure out what was going on. The offensive post itself had already been censured by a moderator, but I managed to find a quote of it in another mer's post. I was completely dumbstruck by what I read and at the same time I wondered if this person could possibly have taken out of context some of the things I had written in the thread? Had I made too many sweaping generalisations about the Japanese? Did this person think that I was promoting hate and acted on that? Was this in any way my fault? Either way, the post had already been moderated so I suppose I figured that if anyone represents the official policy of the forum, it's the moderators and the admins.
By the time I had decyphered what exactly had been said, it all seemed like a done deal. The original post containing the slurs had been hacked to bits and the poster had been given an official warning. It seemed to me that the mer in question had already gotten a proper scolding from the moderator and was now left to ponder their mistake. Or maybe I didn't respond the slurs because the issue was just making me uncomfortable and I was trying not to think about it?
I suppose all these years of hanging out on the web have desensitized me to this kind of behaviour. Seeing, on a daily basis, the stuff that comes out of trolls has that effect. That sounds like a pretty lame excuse, though. I know. You easily start to think that since these kinds of things happen all the time, hence there's no point in making a bigger deal of it that it already is. But as I've come to realise, the elephant in the room won't go away on its own. It's always different if you're on the receiving end of something like this. I remember that sense of betrayal from my school years...when you have all these bystanders just standing around like sheep doing nothing while others are saying and doing horrid things.
I have a saying "Don't act like own the place. Act like you ARE the place". In other words, if I want Mernetwork to be a warm and welcoming place then I need to ask myself: What can I do to make it more warm and welcoming? If not being a sheep... if calling people out on their shit is what's needed, then so be it. We're a community. We're a family. It's time we started acting like one.
If I've failed anyone through my inability to act, I'm truly sorry.
She has responded to larondas video and my video with nearly the exact same response.
I agree with so much of this but I don't understand the hairstyle issues? Maybe someone could explain? Growing up I've always wanted micro braids, and I am very obviously white. My mom told me that she had friends growing up that had micro braids and all of my african american friends have said that anyone can rock a hairstyle, because so many hairstyles are interwoven through so many different cultures. And in the same light I had a friend growing up who had dreads along with one of my moms best friends who has dreads, both are white, and no one ever seems to have an issue because dreads are in so many different cultures.
So im just trying to understand is it bad to like a hairstyle because you aren't directly from the culture where it is worn most?
Because to me it isn't about choosing a hairstyle to be more edgy, it's about choosing a hairstyle that makes me feel confident.
I'm actually curious....what did happen with the Asian Makeup Mermaid? What was the result of it? Does anyone know? I really would like some more information!
Now that the question is out of the way:
Momo, this is a fantastic video. Your concerns are very valid. Your trials and fight to be accepted as a mermaid are well worth it and you are such a respected member in this community.
There are a couple points I'd like to agree with in particular: The use of dreads to look more "Down to earth" and "angry" are completely terrible. Dreads are a thing rooted in many cultures across the globe and rarely ever meant dirty or aggressive. Dreads have been associated with power in the bible (Sampson and have roots in many cultures as symbols of religion or status. (Egypt, Greece, Africa, Buddhism, Christianity, Viking just as a start.) They should never be seen as dirty or unclean or "Aggressive." )
Tribal: It's a phrase that makes me want to cringe. It happened back that a certain fandom created "Tribalstuck." the outcry was great. It falls into the warpaint, head dress, marking type of things. If people are invited into it and to take a part of it, then there's a difference, but using "Tribal" as some weird marked aesthetic to just look "cool." It has a cultural meaning that very few are invited into. Some cultures are more open to letting foreigners in, and that is for them to decide. Maori now use it as a way of respecting others, but that is there choice!
Links on the history of dreads in cultures:
https://www.knottyboy.com/learn/dreadlock-history/
http://ragingrootsstudio.com/the-history-of-dreadlocks/
hang on sending you screencaps
Would it be helpful if we started a dreads thread? (though actually a locks thread, lol)
because I do think it is a worthwhile exchange, and while it was specifically mentioned in the video, I also see the point of not focusing on that piece of the video in that way on this thread....
I was merely stating my agreement with her on these points in particular, that's all. (And thought I'd provide some links in case anyone was curious)
I was asking because I did the same thing, not criticizing, and not speaking of you specifically, I promise:)
More because I think it really is its own whole discussion, and deserves to be, and what I did realize is that when that totally worthy discussion unfolds, the other issues are no longer being addressed and the rest of the conversation is being lost in the shuffle (based in part on my own comments!)
Thank you, I understand now. Honestly, there needs to be an entire discussion of appropriation, appreciation, the thin line, and respecting people of color and other cultures.
Exactly. I dont know why that is so hard to grasp other than innate defensiveness that everyone carries around when dealing with touchy subjects.Quote:
But I think that was kind of her point, as far as the context, sometimes interjecting with a qualifying statement can do so much to damage focus on the magnitude of the issue at hand. It takes away from the salience of the specific conversation, to point out exceptions not relevant to the situation.
She didnt say you did, she was giving an example. You keep taking examples personally.Quote:
I haven't glazed over anything that has been said here.
Literally, this IS one of the biggest issues when talking about appropriation because it silences those being appropriated. Good intentions or not! It's why we need to say, that discussion is not relevant to this specific one. It undermines it.
The issue of hair has already been discussed at length with many relevant examples in the Drama thread for anyone who missed it.
AH... the dreaded thread. (punintended)
Only thinking that because it keeps coming up
plus after a while there will be piles of other stuff there and it will be hard to see what was said- it might be a good space to perspective share/perseverate
lol
I THINK ((oops caps)) it would be pretty cool if we had a separate section for the coloured mers on here. you know like a sort of online "little italy" "little chinatown" "little korea town "little portugal" you know? we did have a threat earlier on discussing our roots and where we came from.
I came into this conversation and stated that Dreads have cultural significance to people of color from many cultures and its facing erasure to hippies, smoking weed, aggression and specifically tied to one group of color. I can't speak about her struggle as a person of color because it is different from mine where I fight to claim my stake as a Native American where people only see me as White because of my german last name, assuming that when I wear blue contacts and blonde wigs that that is how I am naturally. That I was told I was too white to be Native. This is my contribution. This is what I thought is what she asked for. Who are we to police her thread about cultural diversity and representing POC when POC is everywhere and varying. That tribal paint worn as a type of costume is wrong. That dreads and locks and braids as aggressive or dirty is wrong. I am trying to contribute as someone who is Native American and never recognized. I grew up in a state where diversity was every day and we were inducted into the culture and we were put into kimono and taught respect for everyone and we were brought to temples and shown and taught the ways to praise the gods and be just and be respectful of the land where people were proud of their heritage and taught others and brought us into the symbols and the meanings and shared their religion and their culture. I was taught to respect and not to classify.
I'm sorry that I was seen as "off topic" but now I am "off topic" but when you are perceived "white" but you are raised in the states in a Japanese/Hawaiian/Samoan community what are you to do? You're on the outside and you can't touch the cultures you are tied the most too. I am trying to respect Momo, contribute, provide thought provoking commentary without drawing a battle line in the sand of "look but dont touch." We have to open ourselves to experiences and try to understand. I didn't think that commentating on things that she brought up in the video was wrong or off topic. Yes, I brought up things because "You go Momo, you stand up for yourself" only goes so far. It takes discussion to create changes in communities. So I'm more back on topic I'll leave this thread and not post again and leave it with this.
Yes, it was wrong of a company to ask a white mermaid to play an African Goddess.
Yes, it is wrong to parade around and claim something as your own with no meaning or significance to yourself.
Don't ask to look more Chinese or Asian or paint yourself a different skin tone because Race is not something you get to change yourself into to look "exotic" or "cool"
Quote:
I'm sorry that I was seen as "off topic" but now I am "off topic"
Nobody has, or is saying that to you. Just redirecting to where there is already a discussion on the hair issue specifically. Because we've already posted many historial links etc. So people might want to read that stuff first before we sidebar this thread into a repeat of the same stuff.
Pointing out when something undermines a point /=/ "policing" a thread. Redirecting to other relevant links /=/ policing a thread.
Quote:
I THINK ((oops caps)) it would be pretty cool if we had a separate section for the coloured mers on here
Maybe a thread on multiculturalism, or cultural issues, or diversity? We have the gender and sexuality one, along with a thread for mermen and a thread for religion/athiests
Yes! Exactly what I meant :)
The reason I backtracked about the locks issue in this thread, is that while it was brought up, looking at the original post, this is to initiate conversation about how, as a mermaid community, we can come together to address issues deeply affecting some members (and really, affecting everyone who would like to live in a world that really IS one world, one love). A conversation about how, as a community, we can change how much diversity is respected and embraced in a way that makes the diverse members of the community FEEL respected and embraced.
So in that context, I didn't feel like the answer was "hi, I'm white, can we talk about why maybe it's cool if I go ahead and have dreads?"
(because in my head, my answer to THAT question would have been, "actually, for five seconds can we not??")