Aquariums

The title says it all!

I would like to talk with the community abut aquariums (not dolphin or killer whales I mean aquariums aquariums like the one where you can also see other species of sea creatures not only cetacean) what are your thoughts, do you think they make mistakes like the others structures?

I would like to hear the community thoughts not to start drama or anything similar it's just to share opinions.

So what do you think? Do you think they should close, detain only certain breeds our anything else?

It entirely depends on the type of aquarium and the species they house.

If the provided habitat is a good substitute for the natural one, it's ok in my book.
That is easier with smaller species, of course.

Large species or any which need a lot of room (more than provided) should not be held.
This should not only apply to aquariums and zoos, but also to farms and private owners!

I think that aquariums are important for people who don't live in areas near an ocean but still want to experience it. I know that I became interested in the ocean after visting the aquarium in Tennessee, and since TN is a landlocked state I wouldn't have been able to have that experience without having to spend a lot more money on a beach trip. Since visiting that aquarium I've gotten into mermaiding and will be going into college to get a degree that will help me get a job in the marine sciences. As long as the aquarium is a good habitat for the species, like echidna said, an aquarium is a very valuable educational tool and research tool. A lot of aquariums employ research technicians to conduct their research in a more controlled environment, which can lead to all sorts of positive discoveries that can help us understand how to take better care of the ocean an it's inhabitants.

I am in no way qualified to judge if aquariums are the ideal homes for the animals in them, but I sure do love visiting aquariums. Currently Shedd Aquarium in Chicago is my favorite. Yes, they do have some cetaceans and I know that is questionable, but I think they try hard to make the good they do outweigh the negatives. And their other exhibits are beautiful!

Does anyone know if touch tanks are humane? I find them very hard to resist, especially the all sturgeon one, so I'd hate to think they might be detrimental for the animals in them.

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Originally Posted by Ciriun

Does anyone know if touch tanks are humane? I find them very hard to resist, especially the all sturgeon one, so I'd hate to think they might be detrimental for the animals in them.

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I don't know if they are "humane", but touching a fish can harm it physically, because the slime coat fish have on their scales is a part of the fish's skin.
Touching, stroking and handling can damage it, leaving the fish's scales exposed to germs and parasites.
Many fish which are "release-caught" or otherwise handled will die after being thrown back.

At least, that's what we were taught in marine biology.
I know many fish owners who swear petting their fish is wonderful and their fish enjoy it;
and you see loads of biologists handle fish on a general basis, so I'm not sure who is right.

Many aquariums in australia add a lot to research and breeding programs which are so important in continuing the health and safety of so many species and habitats. As well as the obvious awareness and education factors. We have a turtle rehab centre at ours. And the aquarium I performed at in Queensland too! So important!
We have a touch tank at our aquarium but they cleverly fill it with animals that are smart enough or fast enough to keep away from the sides!

Great thank you for your reply guys!!

Reading this really opens my mind about it.



And what about aquariums that hold cetaceans and other "big breeds" like manatees?



I'm asking this as after what happened at Sea World everyone seems to wait for the occasion to questionate about every single structure that holds marine life even if they seem to be doing it in the right way.

Before I was a mermaid I was a Marine Mammal Educator/ assistant in animal care and training (and still work in marine animal rescue) . So you pretty much know where I stand here. Our aquarium worked and continues to work alongside researchers and scientists besides working on breeding programs for endangered species, We worked on self awareness tests, echolocation and hearing, and so much more.

Our aquarium was able to successfully breed fish which are considered now extinct in the wild (I believe they were in process of working on a species reintroduction with the fish before I became ill), they helped start programs to protect coral reefs and sea life, they work alongside other aquariums when it comes to animal care and rescue. They work with many non profit organizations all around the world and share information among other things. Aquariums are important and I can explain why. Aquariums give kids a chance to see so many things in one place and at one time (not many people can say they saw a dolphin, a polar bear and a shark all in one place and in one day), and also teach newer generations about what's important about our oceans and what can be done to help save animals and their habitats. I remember teaching a group of 20 kids about our dolphins and by the end of it all alot of them wanted to start a clean ocean type of program in their school. To a kid there's nothing like seeing an animal up close and watching them become mesmerized by it, and use the animal ambassador in front of them to teach them about not only the animal, but the situation of the ecosystem the animal's wild counterparts face. Not everyone has access to an ocean, not everyone can dive or take a boat etc., not everyone especially at this time has the money to take trips to see these animals in their habitat.

I've always supported SeaWorld and continue to despite what happened. SeaWorld was the place that started it all for me. I can tell you so much about that place from things I've seen and experienced.. Trust me if SeaWorld wanted a mermaid, id be more than happy to provide my services. And sure I've researched both sides, been on whale watches, seen those documentaries and it doesn't change my opinion of them. I applaud them for taking the initiative to provide a better living space for their animals knowing its time to upgrade as standards for animals care has changed in the past decades. But again that's my opinion and choice. I respect those who feel different about it.

(sorry about the long post.)

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Originally Posted by New York Mermaid

Before I was a mermaid I was a Marine Mammal Educator/ assistant in animal care and training (and still work in marine animal rescue) . So you pretty much know where I stand here. Our aquarium worked and continues to work alongside researchers and scientists besides working on breeding programs for endangered species, We worked on self awareness tests, echolocation and hearing, and so much more.

Our aquarium was able to successfully breed fish which are considered now extinct in the wild (I believe they were in process of working on a species reintroduction with the fish before I became ill), they helped start programs to protect coral reefs and sea life, they work alongside other aquariums when it comes to animal care and rescue. They work with many non profit organizations all around the world and share information among other things. Aquariums are important and I can explain why. Aquariums give kids a chance to see so many things in one place and at one time (not many people can say they saw a dolphin, a polar bear and a shark all in one place and in one day), and also teach newer generations about what's important about our oceans and what can be done to help save animals and their habitats. I remember teaching a group of 20 kids about our dolphins and by the end of it all alot of them wanted to start a clean ocean type of program in their school. To a kid there's nothing like seeing an animal up close and watching them become mesmerized by it, and use the animal ambassador in front of them to teach them about not only the animal, but the situation of the ecosystem the animal's wild counterparts face. Not everyone has access to an ocean, not everyone can dive or take a boat etc., not everyone especially at this time has the money to take trips to see these animals in their habitat.

I've always supported SeaWorld and continue to despite what happened. SeaWorld was the place that started it all for me. I can tell you so much about that place from things I've seen and experienced.. Trust me if SeaWorld wanted a mermaid, id be more than happy to provide my services. And sure I've researched both sides, been on whale watches, seen those documentaries and it doesn't change my opinion of them. I applaud them for taking the initiative to provide a better living space for their animals knowing its time to upgrade as standards for animals care has changed in the past decades. But again that's my opinion and choice. I respect those who feel different about it.

(sorry about the long post.)

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Sorry?

Thank you for your long post!
This really makes a difference, you always find opinions on how many bad things humans do that is almost impossible to hear another voice!


Again really thank you very much indeed for sharing your opinion and experience!


Is there someone that thinks it in a different way?
I really would really appreciate to hear a clear explanation of why not having aquariums and other structures like that.

Thank you again guys!

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Originally Posted by Echidna

It entirely depends on the type of aquarium and the species they house.

If the provided habitat is a good substitute for the natural one, it's ok in my book.
That is easier with smaller species, of course.

Large species or any which need a lot of room (more than provided) should not be held.
This should not only apply to aquariums and zoos, but also to farms and private owners!

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I've finished reading everything here and I'm Reposting this. Basically what I wanted to say.

i really don't think housing huge marine animals is ok.
ive visited the Ripleys aquarium twice here in Toronto with my parents. I'll tell you what that was like.
the sting rays and mantas and sharks looked marvelous on the first day it opened. On my second most recent visit it looks like some are experiencing fin rot and look extremely bored. Most will just sleep or swim in circles.

With that said they do have a lot of huge tanks for coral, anemones, molluscs, starfish, jellyfish, and other small species of fish. The fish look hella bored. I guess smaller fish also want to roam a huge ocean. The ones in smaller tanks were not pleased. The tropical fish in the largest tanks looked quite content.
there was also octopus and crustaceans. Octopus also looked bored AF and angry during both my visits.

I am OK with aquariums as you describe them so long as they create high quality environments for their creatures. Unlike seaworld, aquariums actually do a huge amount of research, education, and even rescue work

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

I was wondering about this topic as I visited the Texas State Aquarium this past August. They have two dolphins in a largish tank. They also have a rather large sea turtle rehabilitation program where they get them better then release them back to the ocean. And if the turtle can't be released due to extensive injuries, they take care of them. I enjoyed our visit, but I was hesitant of the dolphins.

Husband made a huge mistake visiting the Vancouver aquarium without telling me until after when he discovered they housed belugas and made them do tricks. He left 2 minutes into the show because he heard my voice scolding him.
I scolded him some more when he came back.

I think aquariums are a great way for people to educate themselves about the ocean, as long as there are high quality environments. I think a good habitat is better all around; the animals are happier and healthier and they are less bored which appears entertaining for the humans who go see them.

I'm not sure I've ever seen "bored/boring" animals at the Long Beach Aquarium, although the shark enclosure looks kinda small. It's a great aquarium!

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Originally Posted by SeaGlass Siren

The fish look hella bored. I guess smaller fish also want to roam a huge ocean

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oh yes.
Swarm fish and migrating fish wil need loads of space no matter their size.


And I don't think the "kids need to see something firsthand to learn how to care about it"-argument holds water.

Most kids love mermaids, unicorns and dragons, and they definitely never saw one in person (present day mermaid performers notwithstanding).
So no, you don't need to imprison and mistreat an animal just so the kids will learn how to take an interest in them
(maybe rethink your education methods?).
^^This pertains more to SeaPrison than to aquariums.

But honestly I think in the modern day with internet and great documentation readily available everywhere, the purpose/main focus of aquariums, zoos and parks should be providing a safe haven for endangered animals, not entertainment.

most aquariums are for gawking though. even though there are infosheets and infographics and interactive activities there for kids to do that don't involve touch tanks, let's be honest here... who ever pays attention to them? ripley's have them but they also have 3 touch tanks. one for sand sharks, one for horseshoe crabs, and one for mantas (that one though they are in a huge tank and it's connected to a shallow area for them to swim up to so they can leave whenever they want and come up whenever they want). no one ever goes read the infographics to learn something.

Yea, I didn't mean info sheets and diagrams (boring for kids) so much as shows on TV where you can see and watch the animals just as well (if not better, as they are filmed in their natural habitat).

Zoos, and to a part circuses, are part of that world before globalisation, TV and internet happened.
People hardly ever travelled back then, so the only chance to see an exotic animal was a faire.
There also weren't many books about them, so all was new and sensational in those old times.

But nowadays?
With entertainment, infotainment, and information flooding everyone nonstop from all directions?
Please.
If someone, no matter if kid or adult, takes an interest in something, they can look it up in seconds, learn about them, watch it on youtube, order books to learn even more about it.

And if they find they are really into it, they can take a trip to the natural habitat and do a diving course (all just examples).
The original concept of zoos and other showstuffs is outdated, and I doubt the value of people gawking at animals through a glasspane (as opposed to on a TV screen ) is that much more valuable than the ethical and natural treatment of a creature.

^power of the internet. agreed.

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Originally Posted by Echidna

Yea, I didn't mean info sheets and diagrams (boring for kids) so much as shows on TV where you can see and watch the animals just as well (if not better, as they are filmed in their natural habitat).

Zoos, and to a part circuses, are part of that world before globalisation, TV and internet happened.
People hardly ever travelled back then, so the only chance to see an exotic animal was a faire.
There also weren't many books about them, so all was new and sensational in those old times.

But nowadays?
With entertainment, infotainment, and information flooding everyone nonstop from all directions?
Please.
If someone, no matter if kid or adult, takes an interest in something, they can look it up in seconds, learn about them, watch it on youtube, order books to learn even more about it.

And if they find they are really into it, they can take a trip to the natural habitat and do a diving course (all just examples).
The original concept of zoos and other showstuffs is outdated, and I doubt the value of people gawking at animals through a glasspane (as opposed to on a TV screen ) is that much more valuable than the ethical and natural treatment of a creature.

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I really feel your point of view!

I think that seeing the animals in their natural habitat is something magical!

But a video or a book doesn't give you the same feeling of seeing them in person and as I learnt here from others opinions and experiences lots of things we know about marine life.


Would it be ok if we try to make the bad aspects minimal?

I mean we are the "new generation" we can do something to make things better?

Anyway thank you guys I love you hear your opinions!

Ok, I can see there are still a LOT of misconceptions about aquariums getting tossed around. I'm going to dispel as many of them as I can. I have degrees in biology and zoology and years of experience working in zoos and aquariums, as well as many friends and acquaintances who do, and I can tell you 100% that aquariums are VERY important tools for education and conservation. That is the primary mission of modern aquariums, they are NOT all about entertainment. That is a very outdated ideal and not something anyone in the zoo or aquarium field would support in this day and age, I can guarantee you.

First of all, for those who worry about the welfare of animals in aquariums, don't. Aquarium animals don't have to worry about predators, pollution, boat strikes, fishing/poaching, entanglement in ocean trash, starvation, stress and disease due to rising ocean temperatures, and many other dangers. They have an entire veterinary staff (normally on-site and/or on-call 24/7) specifically to cater to all their health and medical needs. They are fed the most complete and nutritious diets available, including specific vitamin supplements. Their health and wellbeing is monitored constantly by a staff of highly trained professionals. Their habitats are always being reviewed, improved, and expanded as much as possible to provide the healthiest and most natural environments available (and the technology for this has improved exponentially since the early days, and it continues to improve).

Animals are not "forced to perform" tricks. It is true that many animals are trained to do certain behaviors, but they are trained using positive reinforcement where they are rewarded with treats if they do the behavior, but NOT punished if they don't. These behaviors actually improve safety for both the animals and the people; most of them are specifically trained to improve ease of veterinary exams and procedures. For example, instead of forcing or restraining a seal or sea lion into a certain position to do a blood draw or give a vaccine or just do a health check, you simply ask it to do what you need (roll over, raise a flipper, etc.). Another important point is that these behaviors and interactions provide mental and physical stimulation and are therefore a positive experience for the animal. It works as a form of enrichment (which is provided in a variety of ways to all the animals to keep them stimulated). Yes, in the case of cetaceans and pinnipeds these behaviors are often worked into shows for the public, but the animals are not being exploited or harmed, and these shows are specifically used as an educational tool. Also, please keep in mind that if you're looking into a tank at an aquarium and thinking "this octopus looks bored AF" you are projecting a human emotion onto an invertebrate. That's an excessive amount of anthropomorphization (and I'm a huge animal lover myself).

People who work in aquariums are not grunt workers. Jobs in this field are HUGELY competitive and it is very common to be one applicant among hundreds, I can tell you this from my own personal experience as well as that of many friends and acquaintances. And these jobs don't even pay very well, nowhere near as well as they should, I can assure you. People don't go into the aquarium field for the money, they do it because they love it. Aquariums are staffed by highly trained, educated, and experienced aquarists who are deeply passionate about ocean conservation and education.

Aquariums benefit conservation both directly and indirectly. Directly, because there is a lot of marine biology and conservation-oriented research being performed at most of these institutions. There is so much that goes on behind the scenes that most casual visitors don't even see. Studies are conducted on breeding endangered species, for example, or ways to eradicate diseases (sea star wasting syndrome, coral black band disease, just to name a couple). Also, many aquariums organize research trips, beach cleanups, and animal census counts (such as the annual giant Pacific octopus census near where I live). It's not just trained scientists either; aquariums encourage citizen science and provide the tools and training to carry such things out.

Indirect conservation benefits are brought about by the education provided by aquariums. Each institution has an entire education department dedicated to conducting programs for both children and adults to learn more about the oceans and the animals that live there. By providing accurate scientific information as well as face-to-face encounters and hands-on experiences, aquariums get people excited about the oceans and therefore get them to care. Many, many young people are fascinated and inspired by being able to get up close and personal with live sea creatures that they would never otherwise encounter, so these resources help to create new generations of ocean scientists.

The argument that the same educational benefits can be provided by TV shows and the internet is one I encounter a lot, and unfortunately it is a very uninformed and idealistic viewpoint. I'll break it down:

First of all, have any of you even been paying attention to what's happening to the environment lately? Rising sea temperatures, ocean acidification, plastic pollution, sewage and chemical spills, vast drifting garbage islands, ghost fishing nets, overfishing, poaching, shark finning, seafloor dredging, boat and propeller strikes, navy sonar testing, oil drilling, and probably countless other factors I'm not even thinking of at the moment are ALL threatening the health of the oceans and the very existence of all marine species. These are HUGE problems that, tragically, are not going to just disappear any time soon (if ever). So many habitats are being destroyed and so many species are becoming endangered and even going extinct under our very noses, and if this trend continues then pretty soon there won't even BE wild sea creatures to make documentaries ABOUT. For many animals, aquariums are actually safe havens, or even last bastions for critically endangered species. Zoos and aquariums have a proven track record of actually preventing extinctions of quite a few different species, and the potential to save many more from extinction. Species Survival Plans carried out by accredited aquariums all over the US and the world implement breeding strategies for endangered species, focusing on maintaining genetic diversity and giving the species the best possible chance of survival.

Additionally, many aquariums (as others have mentioned) rescue and rehabilitate sick or injured marine life. Cetaceans, seals and sea lions, sea turtles, and manatees and dugongs ALL benefit from these rescue programs. I used to volunteer in the turtle hospital at the aquarium in Queensland and I've seen many turtles that were rescued that would otherwise have died. All of them were sickened or injured by human-induced causes such as boat strikes (damaged shells requiring repair), ingesting plastic bags (these cause intestinal blockages which cause floating syndrome and starvation), ingesting cigarette butts, trash entanglement, and injuries from fish hooks. Almost all of these turtles were eventually able to recover from severe injuries/illness that they would not have survived in the wild, thanks to the care of the aquarists and veterinarians at the turtle hospital. Without facilities that are adequately equipped and staffed to handle marine animals, a huge amount of sick or injured or injured wildlife would actually be condemned to death because there would not BE anywhere to treat them and nurse them back to health. In fact, there HAVE been instances of injured dolphins having to be euthanized by wildlife officials because of local laws that had banned keeping any cetaceans in captivity and therefore ruled out any aquariums being able to care for them. Let that sink in for a minute.

Another point about educational media....have you guys SEEN what passes for "educational" TV programming these days? Most TV shows nowadays are more about sensationalism, entertainment, and ratings than actually presenting facts. Think about Shark Week, which has falsified SO many documentaries that they actually interview scientists with leading questions, then completely rearrange the material to make it look like the scientists are studying zombie sharks. All of which is fiction presented as fact, all for the sake of entertainment. And the internet is no better. People go around spewing misinformation like facts and most people don't even question it. Anyone can write anything on the internet, unlike in aquariums where staff scientists and educational professionals are devoted to presenting accurate information based on actual research.

Honestly, I am sick to death of armchair activists and self-righteous people who vilify aquariums without even bothering to be fully informed. It doesn't help the cause you think you're supporting, it actually does the opposite and it denigrates all the work that aquarists and scientists devote their entire LIVES to. If you REALLY care about animals, and about the ocean, you should be SUPPORTING aquariums. The more money they receive from ticket sales and memberships, the better care their animals receive and the better their exhibits will be. If you really want to make a difference, don't spread misinformation, DO speak out against the real dangers to the ocean, such as oil drilling, fossil fuels, navy sonar testing, rampant overuse of plastics, seafloor dredging, shark finning, shark culls, and mass slaughter of wild cetaceans (such as what is happening not only with dolphins in Taiji but also with pilot whales in the Faeroe Islands). Knowledge is power and we CAN make a difference, but we have to focus on the right issues, and destroying organizations that provide such important education and conservation functions is not one of them.

I'm not AT ALL educated on this topic, so please forgive my two cents haha. Just wanted to ask a question based on personal experience.

I agree with Mermaid Kassandra that new and better systems can be put in place to ensure that creatures held in aquariums and the like aren't mistreated. While I do see how they could be viewed as superfluous given the current level of technology, I'm not sure that getting rid of them all together would be the best solution. I think that certain species that are bred in captivity to repopulate in a safe and controlled environment, or rescued and nursed back to health, could benefit from aquariums and if the focus is on environmental protection and education, and not on money and tourism. Again, just my uneducated opinion. :)

My concern is with the concept of more people seeing aquatic creatures in their natural habitat.

I went to Mexico over the summer and made the mistake of booking a whale shark tour (because as a mermaid of course I was beyond thrilled so have a chance to swim with them). The company we went with seemed to be a bit more conscientious than most, and refused to let us wear sunscreen because it gets in the water and can clog the whale shark's feeding filters, etc. They also had a limit on how many people could get in to the water, and where and how far down you can swim, so as not to disturb the sharks or scare them or make them uncomfortable.

But when we got to the feeding area, there were already about 6 or 7 other boats that were all just unloading people into the water. Several tried to swim right up to the whale sharks when we saw them, which always scared them and caused them to dive back down away from the surface.

I felt horrible about it and still do. Those tours happen every day, and I feel it just takes advantage of the whale sharks and interrupts their feeding. So my concern is that increased traffic into certain species' natural habitats will stress them out, lead to unintentional pollution, etc. Because it's not just the people who care about the animals who take these tours. A lot of people are just rich enough to afford it and curious, or just want to say they've done it. I feel like an aquarium, IF it treats its creatures well, is a considerably better alternative to that.

wow that was unintentionally long. xD

Any thoughts?

Theobromine: I posted mine before reading yours haha. Thanks so much for the information! :)

Saborigakusei, you're welcome! I hope my post answered some of your questions.

As for your whale shark tour experience, I agree that it is a huge issue. Wildlife tourism is great in theory, but in many cases it's quite bad in practice. Some countries have a lot of laws and regulations regarding whale-watching tours and such; boats have to stay a certain distance from wildlife, have to cut their engines if approaching or approached by wildlife, only allowed a certain number of people/boats per day, etc. But many many places in the world have few to no regulations, unfortunately, and no education regarding the proper treatment of wildlife. That results in a lot of wildlife getting harassed, and stress leads to illness among other issues. It's very sad. I myself once made the mistake of going on a dolphin-watching tour in Panama, and there was a number of speedboats including our own that zoomed around the dolphin pod making loud noises, heading them off in different directions, and just generally disrupting their normal behavior. I was disgusted. So, following my previous post, in a lot of cases you are MORE likely to see natural, normal behavior in an aquarium setting, where aquarists spend all their time maintaining perfect water quality and peaceful environments. And nowadays we DO have the technology to perfectly replicate natural environments and habitats, all while providing a home that is free of all the human-caused dangers I've described. In fact, something most people don't know is that even good documentaries often have footage that is filmed in aquariums! Not only are aquariums usually MUCH more accessible and easier to film in, they're able to provide good enough environments that the animals DO perform their natural behaviors.

One other thing I forgot to mention in my first post is that some rescued and rehabilitated animals end up being unreleasable. This is usually due to injuries such as maimed or lost limbs or eyes that would make them susceptible to predation and unable to catch their own food, which would make them unable to survive in the wild. Aquariums provide safe homes for these animals where they are cared for and provided special accommodations such as being hand-fed or target-fed so they don't starve. These animals are able to live out long happy lives rather than starving to death or getting killed off. Without aquariums these animals would have zero chance of survival.

Theobromine: You definitely eased a lot of my concerns, and it's great for me to begin to build a base knowledge of these issues. I also really appreciate you touching on wildlife tourism. I'd never thought about it before that experience, and I'm sure others haven't either. Thanks again!

It's true that humans have made life in the wild very difficult and exterminate entire species every single day.

That's not an argument for catching wild animals and keeping them for amusement, unless it is indeed done for conversation.
I'm not getting into the trick-discussion here, especially not with someone who is employing SeaPrison lingo and SeaPrison propaganda
"it's not a trick, it's a behaviour"- you can call it a banana, doesn't make it a banana dudes.

"Animals live far longer in capivity than in the wild"- often a lie that has been exposed a long while ago
"They don't do the behaviour because they have to, but because they really want to!!"

One has to be quite gullible to buy that.

Anyway.
Life in the wild today is hard for animals, and it's humanity's fault entirely.
One should make up for that with efforts to make life in the wild easier again, not imprison what remains and call it a day.

Echidna. Wow, how do I put this politely....you CLEARLY do not have the knowledge, education, or experience to back up your arguments. I have seen you time and time again spout off all sorts of unsupported claims and opinions, none of which the research actually backs up, and you've also demonstrated that you're not capable of doing unbiased research. And you do so in a very snooty and self-righteous manner. Unless you are ACTUALLY an expert in the field, please do not act like you are an expert.

I have a master's degree in zoology, research experience, and practical experience working in multiple zoos and aquariums as well as discussing these issues with experts in the field. Do you have this experience? Based on everything I've ever heard you say I'm going to make an educated guess that you do not. So again, please stop contradicting people who actually know what they are talking about. I am very serious about promoting knowledge and debunking false information, but unfortunately you seem very resistant to learning the correct information. It sounds like you've been listening to a lot of propaganda and you're repeating it without actually doing any research. And by "research", I don't mean "I read it on some animal activism websites so it must be true". That is called bias and it has no place in a rational discussion. Please refer to this handy chart of biases: http://static.businessinsider.com/im...6051/image.jpg

In case you didn't read or comprehend my first post very well, I am NOT making any arguments for catching animals from the wild for the purpose of amusement. That is just stupid, please do not twist my words around. I specifically stated that modern aquariums are NOT entertainment-focused, they are conservation focused. How much more simply do I need to spell that out?

I use the word "behaviors" because that is the technical term for it, it is not lingo or propaganda (unless you think ALL technical or scientific terminology is lingo and propaganda, which it's not). Also, I'm stating that animals do behaviors because they choose to and not because they are forced because THAT IS HOW POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT TRAINING WORKS. The animals are never forced. What would be the point of that? Do you honestly think that people who devote their careers to animal care and education are that sadistic? Are you really that dense?

Animals living long lives in captivity isn't a "lie that has been exposed long ago", where the hell are you even coming up with this BS? I'm not making a blanket statement that 100% of all animals live longer in captivity than in the wild; that would be a difficult statement to back up as many marine species have such cryptic life histories that no one is exactly sure how long they actually DO live in the wild. But I CAN tell you for sure that in many cases animals DO live longer in captivity, SPECIFICALLY because they do not have to evade predators, compete for food, or contend with crippling conditions. The first aquarium I worked at had a California moray eel that had been living at the aquarium for 20 years, and it was an adult when it arrived, so it was at LEAST 20 years old, longer than that species was known to live in the wild. This eel was also blind and had to be hand-fed because he couldn't find his own food. Obviously, if he had been out in the wild he would have either starved or become food for someone else. So, yes, I can say with 100% certainty that in MANY cases, animals will live longer in captivity than in the wild.

I devote pretty much my entire existence to promoting conservation and protecting animals and their habitats. I constantly go out of my way to try to educate people about these very issues, but you in particular seem very resistant to actually learning anything worthwhile. You seem far more concerned with acting smug and trying to argue AGAINST facts and common sense than you are with actually being correct. Get over yourself, I've had it with you. And stop getting in the way of people who are actually trying to spread some knowledge.

To everyone else, sorry if I come across as harsh, but I've spent my entire life having to deal with people who prefer to keep their own uninformed opinions about things I've spent my entire life studying. It's not just irritating, it's actually dangerous to keep promoting so much misinformation. Hysterical animal-rights activists who have zero background in biology or conservation always seem to be the most vocal, and most of the things they shriekingly promote are actually HARMFUL. People trying to abolish aquariums because they think all captivity is just "wrong"? Well good job because by condemning aquariums you're CONDEMNING ANIMALS TO DEATH. That is not my opinion. That is a well-substantiated fact which I covered pretty thoroughly in my first post. If you want to be so pigheaded as to completely ignore facts just because they don't support your position (rather than behaving like an intelligent rational human being and revising your opinions based on new facts that you learn) then there is no help for you.

Theobromine, you just said everything I've ever wanted to say in the nicest way possible. Seriously, everybody knows I have a hard time keeping my cool. I applaud you.

The only aquarium I've ever really experienced is the Monterey Bay Aquarium so I don't know what others are like

Ripleys was decent. I just don't like the interactive petting pools. That's unecessary. The mantas looked pretty ok. Sharks did not look ok.

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Originally Posted by Echidna

It's true that humans have made life in the wild very difficult and exterminate entire species every single day.

That's not an argument for catching wild animals and keeping them for amusement, unless it is indeed done for conversation.
I'm not getting into the trick-discussion here, especially not with someone who is employing SeaPrison lingo and SeaPrison propaganda
"it's not a trick, it's a behaviour"- you can call it a banana, doesn't make it a banana dudes.

"Animals live far longer in capivity than in the wild"- often a lie that has been exposed a long while ago
"They don't do the behaviour because they have to, but because they really want to!!"

One has to be quite gullible to buy that.

Anyway.
Life in the wild today is hard for animals, and it's humanity's fault entirely.
One should make up for that with efforts to make life in the wild easier again, not imprison what remains and call it a day.

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That was pretty dismissive and condescending. This is her job and clearly is her passion, and it's also clear that she has put a lot of thought into her position. Her position is that her work does help with "making life in the wild easier again," and she did a nice job articulating how. To reduce her words to "propaganda" is just rude.

This is a great topic, Mermaid Kassandra! But definitely a hot topic. I'm a bit concerned about the larger mammals myself. I haven't made up my mind about how I feel about whales and dolphins in captivity yet, given their intelligence. I've seen some disturbing behaviors in local zoo animals, too, which makes me question how humane it is to keep animals that clearly need a lot of space in enclosures that are so confining. But there may come a time (probably will come a time sadly) when all of the knowledge we've gained from the study of captive animals becomes key to saving their species from extinction. And there really is nothing like a closeup encounter with these animals to light a fire in a kid's mind and inspire a career in science. :) Watching animals on TV is educational, but it's kinda like watching mermaids on Youtube...no comparison to actually swimming in a tail!

I've always had an issue with petting pools too. You never know what kind of lotions, germs, whatever are on people's hands. And little kids could grab, scratch or hit an animal without meaning to. There really doesn't seem to be any benefit to it as far as the animal's health, happiness and well-being is concerned. It seems to be just a gimmick to draw bigger crowds and make more money.

...that said, I probably enjoyed getting to pet mantas a bit too much when I was younger. They're my favorites. :$

Mermaidofthelabyrinth, I appreciate that, thank you. Honestly, I despise getting involved in drama and I normally stay away from it, but this was one instance where I definitely couldn't keep my cool. Uninformed but receptive to information is one thing, willful ignorance is another. I absolutely cannot stand anti-science rhetoric and I've seen Echidna spread enough of it in enough threads that it was finally time to call her out on it once and for all. Not only is she anti-science and resistant to being informed or educated, she is constantly rude and condescending to anyone who disagrees with her. I know for a fact it's not just me. The last thing I would want is for some innocent person who's just looking for more information on this top to read through this thread, see her statements, and believe they're factual. They're not, and I've never seen her be able to actually back any of her statements with facts.

SeaGlass, I understand your concerns about the health and safety of the animals, believe me. I know some aquariums have removed their touch pools out of concern for animal safety, but those that still have them always have a staff member on hand to not only educate people and answer questions, but also to prevent anyone from harming the animals. The best thing anyone can do about this topic is keep an open mind and learn everything they can.

I CAN assure everyone that people who work in aquariums care VERY much about the animals housed there and are very protective of them. Why would anyone who didn't care about animal care, education, and conservation work in such a high-stakes, high-stress environment where they are constantly being questioned and even harrassed by ignorant people? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

I don't pet the mantas unless I've washed my hands and they come up to me when my hand is in the water. Mantas are as far as I'll go

Dancing Fish, I just saw your reply. I definitely agree with your second paragraph. I am also a bit on the fence about cetaceans in captivity, personally I am keeping an open mind and considering both sides of the issue (and I do know a lot of people who work with marine mammals). I don't support taking cetaceans out of the wild, I DO strongly advocate protecting them in the wild but I also have to point out that we're not going to be able to resolve any of the issues endangering them anytime soon. Seriously, we can't even pass legislation to prevent school shootings in the US, who would be naive enough to believe we can just suddenly enact global protection for cetaceans? Also, in the case of marine mammals that have been injured and would not survive in the wild, I think it's fantastic that we have facilities where we can care for them and keep them safe.

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Originally Posted by Theobromine

Mermaidofthelabyrinth, I appreciate that, thank you. Honestly, I despise getting involved in drama and I normally stay away from it, but this was one instance where I definitely couldn't keep my cool. Uninformed but receptive to information is one thing, willful ignorance is another. I absolutely cannot stand anti-science rhetoric and I've seen Echidna spread enough of it in enough threads that it was finally time to call her out on it once and for all. Not only is she anti-science and resistant to being informed or educated, she is constantly rude and condescending to anyone who disagrees with her. I know for a fact it's not just me. The last thing I would want is for some innocent person who's just looking for more information on this top to read through this thread, see her statements, and believe they're factual. They're not, and I've never seen her be able to actually back any of her statements with facts.

SeaGlass, I understand your concerns about the health and safety of the animals, believe me. I know some aquariums have removed their touch pools out of concern for animal safety, but those that still have them always have a staff member on hand to not only educate people and answer questions, but also to prevent anyone from harming the animals. The best thing anyone can do about this topic is keep an open mind and learn everything they can.

I CAN assure everyone that people who work in aquariums care VERY much about the animals housed there and are very protective of them. Why would anyone who didn't care about animal care, education, and conservation work in such a high-stakes, high-stress environment where they are constantly being questioned and even harrassed by ignorant people? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

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I appreciate how calm you are and I get where you are coming from. I've read both sides of the argument but I tend to lean towards against keeping huge animals in tanks. But I do agree sometimes human intervention is needed because there is always some special case.

in the case of the OPs question though my response remains the same.

There was one more point I forgot to address in my first comment. I think someone said a while back that even small fishes like to have the whole ocean to swim in? Well, that's not really true. Most small fishes have pretty small territories and are confined to a particular type of habitat. You don't see all different species of fishes flitting all across the ocean. In particular, many small reef fishes spend their entire lives in a single reef and are really only concerned with defending their territories, evading predators, and finding food and mates. In fact, those concerns apply to pretty much all fish species. You know those large pelagic fishes such as tuna, billfishes, and sharks? Yes they cover vast distances in the open ocean, but it's because they need to range far and wide to search for food. They're not just doing it for fun. The open ocean is relatively devoid of food items so the large pelagic predators need to cover such large distances just to hunt. That's not an issue for fishes in aquariums, which are fed a sufficient and nutritionally complete diet. Tanks for larger fishes are engineered to provide them enough swimming space, current and filtration to stay healthy, but since they don't need to search for food they don't need anywhere near as much space as they would in the wild. And fishes don't swim around for fun, that's an unnecessary energy expenditure and it's not in their nature to waste energy (which you can see if you study fish anatomy; their body structures have evolved to maximize efficiency of movement while minimizing the energetic cost).

ok, I shouldn't bother, because you resorted to name-calling and making a whole lot of personal accusations and assumptions about me, but I will address this:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Theobromine

The last thing I would want is for some innocent person who's just looking for more information on this top to read through this thread, see her statements, and believe they're factual. They're not, and I've never seen her be able to actually back any of her statements with facts.

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I didn't make any statements in this thread that aren't common sense.
The parts where I simply stated my opinion, I said it was my opinion.

And I've "backed up stuff with facts" often enough where it was needed.
For the above things, normally it shouldn't be.
"Backing up with facts" on the internet consists usually of linking to webpages, studies and stuff.

You don't do that yourself most of the time, you just wave your degree and assume I have none because I seem to disagree with you.
Way to go :clap:

Now to where I mentioned SeaPrison propaganda, the part I put in "":
Those were direct quotes from a SeaWorld adertising video.

All three statements coincide directly with what you said, which is why it reminded me of it, and why I said I'm not getting into a discussion about it- because their methods and statements have already been exposed as being wrong and harmful.
I suppose you want me to back up that, too?

I did study science, btw.
I also know not all that is sold as science is the end-all, be-all, and that studies more often than not cannot be trusted because the study financiers want to see certain results.
The whole pharmaceutical market is full of false studies, much to the detriment of the people.

Which is why I don't see linking to studies and such is "backing up facts", at all.

Anyway.
I've said my piece already before you came to this thread in my very first post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dancing Fish

That was pretty dismissive and condescending. This is her job and clearly is her passion, and it's also clear that she has put a lot of thought into her position. Her position is that her work does help with "making life in the wild easier again," and she did a nice job articulating how. To reduce her words to "propaganda" is just rude.

This is a great topic, Mermaid Kassandra! But definitely a hot topic. I'm a bit concerned about the larger mammals myself. I haven't made up my mind about how I feel about whales and dolphins in captivity yet, given their intelligence. I've seen some disturbing behaviors in local zoo animals, too, which makes me question how humane it is to keep animals that clearly need a lot of space in enclosures that are so confining. But there may come a time (probably will come a time sadly) when all of the knowledge we've gained from the study of captive animals becomes key to saving their species from extinction. And there really is nothing like a closeup encounter with these animals to light a fire in a kid's mind and inspire a career in science. :) Watching animals on TV is educational, but it's kinda like watching mermaids on Youtube...no comparison to actually swimming in a tail!

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I completely agree with you it makes a lot of difference to experience it on your own!

I felt it on myself.



And yes I knew this was a great and hard topic but seeing what's happening around and what disinformed people say I wanted a place where to discuss this and hear orders opinion.

I don't have a degree in marine biology, even if I wish it could be my second degree in the future if I have the time and the chance, so I hoped to learn from people that really have hands on actual experience because I want to make a real opinion of a topic that I feel is very important.



I'm so glad that you guys decided to share your opinion with me here and with all the community and I feel so lucky that I can read experiences from people that really worked in this field and who can tell us how things really work!



Honestly I share New York mermaid and Theobromine's opinion as I saw so much effort poured in the research in aquariums rather than in amusement parks (such as Sea World and other structures) and I understand perfectly that if you spent you're entire life in this you feel disappointed hearing stubborn people saying that everything that isn't in the wild is bad.

So touch tanks really are questionable, huh? :/ That's a bummer. I was so excited about the chance to touch a real, live sturgeon I hadn't even thought at the time about it being potentially harmful to the poor things.

On the cetacean topic, I recently caught a bit of a show where an aquarium rescued a baby whale (pilot whale I think, but I am not sure.) that had pneumonia. They treated it and nursed it back to health, but in the end they decided not to release it on the basis that it had been taken in at such a young age that it wouldn't know what to do if released back into the wild. I don't know how true that reasoning may be, but it was nice to see the efforts they put into caring for it.

Echidna, you keep saying you've studied science, but everything you've ever said in this thread (and in other threads) demonstrates your lack of understanding of even basic scientific principles. Not only do you not back up any of your claims, you've never even said anything specific; all of your claims and assertions are extremely vague. Not a single claim of yours has been "common sense". When you say "And I've "backed up stuff with facts" often enough where it was needed. For the above things, normally it shouldn't be. "Backing up with facts" on the internet consists usually of linking to webpages, studies and stuff." That is straight-up incorrect. In fact, it is pure idiocy and I sincerely hope I don't have to explain to anyone ELSE why "normally it shouldn't be necessary" to provide actual facts to support your argument is incorrect. And as I've told you before, Echidna, you can't just link to any old webpage and call it a fact. THAT should be common sense, but you have clearly demonstrated that you have no common sense. Citations should only include primary source materials such as peer-reviewed studies, people. I've already written a long post in another thread about why this is so important. Echidna, I think you fail at reading comprehension. You have demonstrated many times that you are not only incredibly arrogant but extremely ignorant as well. I feel like I'm wasting my time even talking to you because I can tell you are as resistant to facts and well-constructed arguments as a bag of rocks. And you are always inexcusably rude to everybody who disagrees with you. That doesn't make you edgy, blunt, or straightforward, by the way. It just makes you dumb, and an ass.

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As for everything I've stated in previous comments, I can give specific examples, and yes, I CAN provide citations for everything I've stated and I will sit down and do so as soon as I actually have the spare time. I came into this thread to dispel misconceptions and help educate people, and I still aim to do that. Please ask me if you have any questions! Kassandra, thank you for starting this thread, it's too bad that it had to endure some mud-slinging, but I hope I've helped you learn some new things and put your mind at ease a little. My whole mission in life really is to educate people about biology and conservation. I also believe that it's REALLY important for the mermaid community to be involved in conservation and awareness, and to do that, you need to have accurate information! I think everyone here genuinely does love animals and care for the environment. I just want everyone to realize how important it really is to know the facts rather than just making assumptions, because if you just rely on assumptions (about an animal's behavior, anatomy, or proper environment) then it can lead you to make the WRONG decisions about how to deal with an issue. Even if you mean well, if you don't fully understand the science behind one of these issues, it could lead to, for example, an animal being released into the wild in the incorrect environment that proves harmful to it, or into an area where it would be in danger from poachers or pollution or deforestation, or even an area where IT could pose a danger to OTHER species (through predation, competition for resources, or interbreeding). I hope everyone understands why fact-based decisions are so critical. And as Dancing Fish stated above, it may be that the understanding we gain from studies we do on captive animals will be the key to saving them.