Revamping a fabric tail using Seatan's method

[MermanOliver]

So, after Seavanna posted her idea how to use Dragonskin (http://mernetwork.com/index/showthre...ith-Dragonskin) on a fabric tail I decided to try it on my own tail. After some swims the fabric started to fade (yes, I know, holographic fabric is a no-no, but it was soooo beautiful ), and I hope coating it with silicone will at least stop the fading.

I ordered my first batch of Dragonskin just this week, and I expect it to arrive next week ! I'll keep you informed about the progress, give details and post pictures. Stay tuned!

[WaterDragon]

Sweet, I hope it works out! it would be awesome if the Dragonskin prevents the holographic pretty's from fading away.

[Seatan]

My suggestion would be this: Do ONLY one layer of Dragonskin on the tail body itself. I tried to do a second layer to get more texture and it really dulled the texture and gloss to the point where I think I am going to try again. This time I will cut a flat body panel rather doing it on a dressform and do only one layer on the body and leave textures and raised areas for the fluke.

[MermanOliver]

Thanks for the tip, Seavanna! Can't wait for the silicone to arrive. Will do some tests first, though, before applying it to my tail.

The biggest issue I am thinking about right now is how to apply drainage to the tail. As my fluke has three points, I guess I'll try something as incorporating three tubes like fin rays, but that is just theoretical at this point.
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[Seatan]

I just slit holes in the fabric then made sure to use something to hold them apart when I siliconed them. Really simple. You don't need huge drainage holes are anything, just slam slits in the end. They are small enough they don't come apart and you can't even see them. Just small areas not seamed together. That's what my FinFolk tail had.

[Keiris]

I just slit holes in the fabric then made sure to use something to hold them apart when I siliconed them. Really simple. You don't need huge drainage holes are anything, just slam slits in the end. They are small enough they don't come apart and you can't even see them. Just small areas not seamed together. That's what my FinFolk tail had.

Hi Seavanna! I am curious. Does your tail that you did this treatment to have a protective Felt-like material sandwiching the monofin? I want to try your treatment and mine has this beneath the lycra skin. I wanted to know if you just left it in along with the monofin while you silicone the outside?

[MermanOliver]

Today I got my silicone!
Dragonskin 10 medium speed. Seems to be a good compromise between softness, stretch and pot life. Dragonskin FX seems to be even softer, but is listed with a pot life of just a few minutes, and the break elongation also is much less, so I settled for DS10 medium.



Will try it this weekend, although starting RIGHT NOW is soooooo tempting...
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[PearlieMae]

Dragonskin FX is effects like wounds...it's super soft.

Just mix small amounts at a time and apply it thinly.

And remember ALWAYS DO A SMALL PATCH TEST FIRST!

[MermanOliver]

Dragonskin FX is effects like wounds...it's super soft.



Just mix small amounts at a time and apply it thinly.



And remember ALWAYS DO A SMALL PATCH TEST FIRST!

That's what I plan to do . Learning to walk before starting to run (and try it out on some scrap fabric first). In fact I think of a small test setup to actually measure some properties of the coated fabric. (Combine a CAD program, a 3d printer, an engineering background and a fair amount of craziness :P ). Updates will follow!

[Keiris]

Can't wait to see how it looks Oliver!

[MermanOliver]

Well, it may take some time to the finished tail. This weekend is really busy, and I am not sure if I get anything done tail-wise. Don't want to rush things and be disappointed later.
This weekend is Makerfaire here in Hannover

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[MermanOliver]

So, molds for the silicone test pieces are ready, tomorrow I'll make the casts. Aglaia has been so kind to give me some silicone of a different brand which she used in her tail, and I have some Dragonskin.
The plan is doing a plain silicone cast each for stretch and softness comparison and then coat fabric with both silicones and compare that to a piece of uncoated fabric.
Pictures will follow, I can't get my smartphone to upload small pics yet, and I don't want to go too pic-heavy .
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[Midakwe]

So, molds for the silicone test pieces are ready, tomorrow I'll make the casts. Aglaia has been so kind to give me some silicone of a different brand which she used in her tail, and I have some Dragonskin.
The plan is doing a plain silicone cast each for stretch and softness comparison and then coat fabric with both silicones and compare that to a piece of uncoated fabric.
Pictures will follow, I can't get my smartphone to upload small pics yet, and I don't want to go too pic-heavy .
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Can't wait to see it!!

[MermanOliver]

Yes! Finally the first experiment with Dragonskin!



I tried three things:

• A mold (30mm x 100mm x 2mm) made of PLA (3d printed, the small part in the tip of the three samples on the fin)
• Fabric with silicone smeared on it (left of my hand)
• Fabric drenched in silicone like using a rug (the one my hand hovers over)

For now the smear-on method seems to be the most practical one for the finished tail. The blade of my monofin is used because it is made of polypropylene and should be inert to the fin, plus it should separate from the cured parts even without release agent.

Speaking of release agent, there is another thing I tried: In a video by Smooth-On they mentioned using a mix of one part dishwashing fluid and two parts alcohol. I used it on the 3d printed mold. Well, wait and see how it works.

Stay tuned. See ya!

[WaterDragon]

So exciting! I can't wait for the results!

[MermanOliver]

Just for a quick update: The dishwash-alcohol mixture as release agent worked like a charm! And PLA works with dragonskin, so 3d printed molds are definitely an option.
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[MermanOliver]

Results! The experiments worked out really well, and now there are several samples to compare the stretch of the different treatments. The test setup is as follows:

• Samples measure about 30mm by 100mm (roughly 1,5 inch by 4 inch, if I'm not too much mistaken)
• Thickness of plain silicone is 2mm, the fabric-silicone composite has no clearly defined thickness, just what is smeared on top
• Stress is a 500g dive weight
• The grid of the cutting plate in the background is 10mm by 10mm

First, Dragonskin ist really, really soft and stretchy, but tough and tear-resistant at the same time. Even at 2mm it is translucent, though milky. When mixing I noticed that there seems to be a lot of gas solved in the silicone (Smooth-on recommends degassing it before pouring, but I haven't got a vacuum system available). The viscosity is thicker than I expected, something like honey. A picture of the cured sample both stressed and unstressed:



Smearing the fabric with silicone was fairly easy, although the holographic print prevented the fabric being soaked when smeared on from one side only. After applying silicone to both sides everything went smooth (and smeary ). A timelapse video is as good as done, I'll post it when it's ready.

Results: Fabric itself is quite stretchy, too, and the composite material gets a little stiffer (about 50%), but still should be OK. The impression on the images is that it appears to lose about half of the stretch, but the composite material can be stretched to the same amount as the fabric, it just takes more force.
The silicone adheres to the holo-print fairly well, as long as the layer is thick enough! If the silicone layer on the fabric is too thin, it will start rubbing off easily. I tried a sample where i wiped the mixing vessel clean with a piece of fabric, and the holo-print of that sample was just slightly wetted. That seemed to be not enough. Best practice seems to be to actually smear the silicone onto the fabric, to ensure a sufficient layer thickness, and let it run off by itself. And the colors of the holo effect get more vibrant, even if they have been slightly dulled on the fabric prior to the silicone treatment.

Fabric alone Fabric-silicone composite

Adhering the silicone to the monofin might get quite tricky, as the blade is made of polypropylene (PP). I used it as base for my silicone experiments and have been able to pull off the silicone easily, without the need for release agents. Good for a workbench, bad for a monofin, where the layers should actually adhere to the materila. Well, wait and see.

Speaking of release agents, in an instruction video by Smooth-On they mentioned using a mixture of one part dishwashing fluid and two parts alcohol. That really works brilliantly, is silicone-compatible and is cheap, too.

Well, that's all for now. I'll post the video when it's done and further results of the progress as it, well, progresses.

Stay tuned!

Oliver
EDIT: The video is ready: http://youtu.be/RxlTw38r6nc

[Mermaid Joie]

Excellent work Merman Oliver! I'm making my first tail and I love watching other people's progress. I don't know if this would work for your monofin, but did you think about lighly sanding the Monofin to make the surface easier for the silicone to grip? You could test a small area or something that is also made of polypropylene. When I spray paint something with a slippery surface like glass or plastic for one of my DIY projects, I either sand it or use a primer to give the spray paint something to grip so that it won't come off. As long as you are not using a fine grit sandpaper this should give your Monofin a rough surface. Again I haven't tried this I would test it on a small patch first or on something else.

[Mermaid Wesley]

Unfortunately silicone will not stick to anything nonporous except more silicone. It won't adhere to the monofin directly. There are a few tricks people use though, scattered around the forum.


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[MermanOliver]

Sorry for the belated answer. My not-so-smartphone didn't show me that there have been new posts. Grrrr!

Nevertheless, thanks a lot for the tips on preparing the monofin, I'll keep them in mind. In fact, I just used the monofin as working surface when doing the experiments because I actually hoped that I could easily peel off the cured fabric samples

As for the long pause on the updates, it has just been that: A pause. Had some busy weeks at work and otherwise have been thinking a lot about how to set up the work best. Didn't want to post here at first that there is nothing new as not to bump the thread unnecessarily, but it seems that there is some interest in the progress and so it's time for this short update.

Well, summer has finally arrived in Germany, with temperatures of 35 degrees Celsius, forecasts for the weekend say 40. As the pot life of the mixed silicone would be shortened significantly I shifted priorities: First put up the swimming pool in the garden, then finish the tail. Target is having the tail done by end of July. And best of all, the lakes are getting warmer, too
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