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Thread: Changing The Militant Image Of Animal Rights Activists

  1. #1

    Changing The Militant Image Of Animal Rights Activists

    People who are into animal rights get a bad rap for being very militant and pushy, something I certainly admit to being guilty of myself. I feel bad sometimes because I feel like in the past I got off on the wrong fluke with other mers because they didn't share my passion for those issues, people I could've perhaps been friends with had circumstances been a little different. I've gotten to the point now that I personally believe that vegetarians, vegans, and others concerned about animal welfare and the environment should at least try to be respectful, polite, and kind to everyone, as after all humans are animals too, so being kind to people IS being kind to animals technically. The whole ideology of animal welfare is, at least to me, based on the principles of being as kind and compassionate as possible and "doing no harm", so I think it's very unfortunate indeed that animal rights activists have a reputation of...not being very nice. We need to kill with kindness, not scare people away with pushiness and militancy(sp?). PETA has undeniably introduced a lot of people to animal rights, but unfortunately they have also embraced sexism, ableism, body-shaming, and other forms of negative energy in their campaigns. I love Sea Shepherd's work, but let's face it...Paul Watson sure ain't gonna will any Mr. Congeniality awards any time soon. We need to remember that the old saying "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar" is there for a reason.
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  2. #2
    Senior Member North Pacific Pod Theobromine's Avatar
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    I definitely agree with you...but unfortunately some, if not many, animal-rights activists ARE too militant. And I say this as a bleeding-heart animal lover. PETA is not JUST ableist and sexist...they have been proven to actually kill far more innocent animals than they actually save. In many cases they've even been found to be STEALING PEOPLE'S PETS RIGHT OFF THEIR FRONT PORCHES AND EUTHANIZING THEM. I find this to absolutely horrifying and disgusting. My pets are my children and I love them more than anything in the world. The fact that there are people out there who specifically go out of their way to kill pets makes me sick. I won't even link to the articles I've seen because they're too upsetting, but you guys can google them if you want to.

    I absolutely believe in protecting animals. But some people just go about it the wrong way. And activism without facts or reason actually does more harm than good. Like animal activists that break into places to set animals free...without thinking about the fact that those animals might not be native and have nowhere to go and no way of surviving in their new environment. Or people (again, the PETA types) who go around saying that animals are better off dead than in captivity. That is disgusting, presumptuous, absolutely untrue bullshit. Yes, SOME captivity situations may be bad, if the animals are not properly cared for, but that in no way applies to ALL captivity. What about all those well-loved, spoiled pets that are kept in safe warm houses and given the best food and veterinary care possible? They are living the dream life! And domesticated animals couldn't be released into the wild anyway. Additionally, most zoos and aquariums (AZA accredited ones) are in fact GREAT places for animals to live. They are extremely well cared for by keepers who love them and dedicate their lives to making sure they are happy and healthy. They have access to excellent on-site veterinarians, and they are fed the most nutritious and high-quality diets possible (personal zookeeper and aquarist experience here). Too many people have this knee-jerk reaction that zoos=captivity=bad, but they don't know all the facts. So many of those animals would not even survive if released into the wild; these days most of them are bred in captivity anyway, not wild-captured, and they would be potentially subjected to predators and disease and habitat loss and famine in the wild. In zoos, they are very carefully protected from all of these dangers. They are also able to inspire people and educate them about endangered species and habitat loss; they can provide valuable observational data to zookeepers and scientists who can use the information to find better ways to care for and protect them, and they are used in breeding programs specifically to preserve endangered species. Many species have been saved from certain extinction by the Species Survival Plans (breeding programs) instituted by zoos. I could write a whole other article about this actually, but I'll just leave it here for now.

    I guess what I'm really trying to say is that if you're really an animal rights activist, make sure you LEARN about the animals Research the facts, listen to the experts, avoid knee-jerk reactions, and think about what is really best for the animals, not just what sounds best from our perspective. Zookeepers and scientists are NOT in it for the money, I assure you! They do what they do because of their passion for the subject, and for facts and knowledge. So the BEST thing animal activists can do is to be informed, and to help educate other people. You're definitely right about catching more flies with honey than vinegar, but you'll also gather more followers with facts than with pitchforks and torches

  3. #3
    Yeah I don't agree with PETA's excessive euthanasia either, nor I do I think ALL captivity is bad, I think it depends on the type of animal and the situation, at the very least I don't agree with breaking into zoos and freeing the animals etc.
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  4. #4
    Senior Member North Pacific Pod Theobromine's Avatar
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    Oh I know, I wasn't suggesting that you're militant like that. Just that there are horrible people out there who give the rest of us a bad name.

  5. #5
    The closest I get to being that militant is I like the idea of a story about mermaids freeing all the fish from fishing nets and crabs and lobsters from traps and sometimes I fantasize about doing that kinda thing if I was a real mermaid because I think the whole process of fishing seems really painful and stressful for the animals, BUT in real life I would never do that kind of militant direct action because I've seen Orange Is The New Black and I never wanna do anything to get me sent to prison haha
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  6. #6
    Senior Member North Pacific Pod Theobromine's Avatar
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    Oh hey man, fantasizing about freeing animals from traps is different! I totally fantasize about that too!

  7. #7
    Senior Member Pod of Cali
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    May I ask, could you elaborate on what your stance is in regards to the rights of animals? I am not certain as to where you stand on the issue, and before I give my opinion, I want to give you the chance to explain your own.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by TritonsGuard View Post
    May I ask, could you elaborate on what your stance is in regards to the rights of animals? I am not certain as to where you stand on the issue, and before I give my opinion, I want to give you the chance to explain your own.
    Well, I was pretty infamous on this forum for my stance on not eating any seafood for the sake of protecting the ocean ecosystem, but I'm also against sport hunting, factory farms, most kinds of fish farming, wearing fur and real leather, animal testing, puppy mills, dog fighting, etc. However, I realize it's not always realistic and practical for everyone to go vegetarian/vegan over night and some people in remote places like the Inuit in Northern Canada don't much choice but to hunt for subsistence, so I don't really completely agree with the extreme "total animal liberation NOW!" stance of some of the most militant animal rights organizations, but I support a gradual shift toward no longer using animals for food, clothing, and other purposes over the next few decades, so I support things like stopping or at least reducing government subsidies on the fishing and animal farming industries, much stricter regulations on those industries, and promoting a reduction of animal consumption through campaigns like Meatless Mondays. Hope that helps answer your question!
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  9. #9
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    Thank you. There is one more thing I would like to ask before I tell you my stance. What is your belief system based upon? What is the reason you give as to why you believe things should be the way you envision?

  10. #10
    My reasoning for believing what I do is twofold. First of all, I'm a huge environmentalist and I feel in most cases animal rights and conservation are pretty intertwined. After all, factory farming hurts the environment as well as the animals, and commercial fishing can destroy entire ecosystems and take food away from carnivorous animals like cetaceans and sharks that unlike most humans have no choice but to eat fish to survive. Second of all, I just believe in compassion for all living things, I don't like to see animals die and suffer for the sake of profit, though I realize it isn't always realistic to expect those industries to completely stop overnight. Also, as a mermaid activist, I feel a special connection with marine life especially. While it may not technically be cannibalism for merfolk to eat fish, since many species of fish do in fact eat other fish, I personally feel as a mer a sense of kinship so I'd rather take the "fish are friends, not food" mindset
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  11. #11
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    Thank you again. Still a bit unclear about your stance (You have not told me of weather or not you believe some life has more value then others), but since you have been kind enough to explain to me your position, I will do the same.

    But first, it is not cannibalism unless the animal eats another animal of its own species. A tuna eating a sardine is no more a cannibal then a leopard eating a gazelle. So if a mermaid were a fish, which would be debatable seeing as they are half human, eating fish would not be cannibalism, unless she ate another mermaid or merman. Not a pleasant thought.

    I do agree with you about many things. I do not believe in over consumption of nature or damaging it for no good reason, or beyond repair. It is cruel, wasteful, ignorant, and down right stupid.
    However, you and I vastly differ in views on life and nature. My opinion, like yours, is based on my core beliefs and ethics, and those are Christianity, a code of conduct similar to Chivalry, and a warrior's mentality. The big difference between you and I is that I believe there is a time to kill. In my religion, God gave us permission to eat meat. Even Jesus ate meat.
    I would like to address what you said of dolphins and as you say "they have no choice." Where you see a tragedy in its predation, I see the magnificence of its nature and the beauty of its design. Dolphins and sharks are doing what they were meant to do, and without that, they would not be what they are. Their speed, agility, sonar and smell, teeth, and team work and stealth make them a superb hunters and that will always be a part of who they are. Even if they could eat vegetation, they would not give it up. I have a little terrier, very cute, very friendly, and full of energy. He has never been in the wild, and has never had to kill to survive. His food dish was always full and accessible. Yet some days when he is outside running, I'll find him with a squirrel or some other small animal in his mouth. He also walks differently then usual. He looks happy. It looks like he felt the same way that I do when I win a game. Do I discipline him? No. I give him a treat so he will drop it and I can dispose of it (I don't want to clean up the mess). Then I pat him on the head because he was doing what he was meant to do in nature, and rather then try to take it out of him, I encourage him to do so in a good way, and accept him for what he is, a predator, and a cute one at that.


    Next, As a warrior, I believe we have a right to fight to defend what we hold dear from those that would seek to take it. Right now I am betting that you are a vegetarian. If not, please correct me. Even so, you might want that you are still endorsing an industry that is killing for profit, and I am not talking about the live stock on the farm. When you look out at a crop, you see what we all see, food and lots of it. Animals see the same thing, and will do all they can to get in. Try as we may to keep them out, to quote Jeff Goldblum's character in Jurassic Park, "life finds a way." Every day thousands of crows, rabbits, deer, and other animals get into the area where your food grows. Once they're in, they gorge themselves, and many more come in through whatever way the first one got in. To counter this farmers get hunters to shoot and take animals off the farm, and some will have the hunters clear out the area around the farm to try to prevent them from getting inside in the first place. If they did not do this, the price of vegetables would skyrocket, and even if the government put a price ceiling on them, there would not be enough food. In nature, what is yours is only that which you defend, and we as humans (or Mers) are in that game. If you do not fight back, others animals "will" take it.
    Does that mean we should exterminate the competition completely? No. We know better then that. We are wiser now. We, and that includes us hunters, know we cannot take from nature without being careful. That is why the environments in the US and Canada are getting better. We replant areas that we chop down. We don't pump our sewage into the ocean anymore.

    One of the things that makes me mad about environmentalists in general is that they never celebrate their victories. The environment in America is much better then it was a few decades ago, and the environmentalists never praise that. As long as beings capable of thought are on this earth, an environmentalist's work will never be done. If they do not show gratitude for what they have accomplished, they are dooming their entire cause to eternal depression.


    There is more to what I believe, but I think I've said enough for now. Sorry if you do not like what heard, but this is the person that I am, and I am not sorry for that.

  12. #12
    I guess I can understand some of your points there. I mean, yes some animals are natural predators and that's a big part of their innate nature. Still, I admit I'm a pacifist at heart. I hate war and violence. I love the idea of "the lion lying down with the lamb", so while I recognize that the food chain is a natural part of life that can't be completely denied, that doesn't mean I have to always like the idea. I do find the intelligence and teamwork of cetaceans amazing, and I find it very interesting that female lions do the hunting, there's plenty of aspects to the way animals predate that are fascinating. It's necessary for their survival and I know keeping a balanced ecosystem is very important, so predation might be a natural way of keeping populations in check, but I'm still a bit squeamish at the idea at times.

    Yes, I'm aware that there are issues with farming crops, animals do get killed for eating farmer's crops, and I think there definitely needs to be reforms done in that area. I think for the time being it's pretty much impossible to live a truly 100% cruelty-free or eco-friendly lifestyle, just about every industry under the sun has its issues. I am a pragmaticist to some extent

    In some ways I do feel like celebrating certain victories, as I keep seeing statistics, for example, that both seafood and meat consumption are down in the US. Vegetarian/vegan alternative products to meat and dairy are more readily available and inexpensive than ever. Meatless Mondays programs have made into some public schools. Curbside recycling programs are improving. Lower-emission cars are available. Labels on food and personal care products have improved, consumers are more concerned than ever about knowing what goes into their products and where it comes from. We still have a long way to go, but we have admittedly come a long way too, which is why I honestly believe in 50 years or so just about everyone will be vegetarian or at least eat quite a bit less meat than we do now.

    As for as do I believe that some life is more valuable than others? Well, I mean I think it's hard to deny that some animals are more intelligent than others, and perhaps it's fair to say that the life of an endangered species is more worthy serious of concern than an animal that is not endangered, for the sake of conservation, but ultimately every life has some value, and taking a life is not something to take lightly. I try to not kill insects, and when it comes to pest animals such as rodents, I think they should be relocated instead of killed.

    Am I a vegetarian? Yeah, pretty much. I do not eat either red meat or seafood, and I use soy milk instead of dairy milk in my cereal and coffee. I am not yet 100% vegan and I still eat some processed foods, so I don't claim to be the greenest eater ever. This thread is not about me claiming to be some eco-saint, if anything I know more than ever than we need to be practical and realistic, and some extreme animal rights groups need to reconsider some of their methods. I no longer really believe in getting up on my high seahorse(aren't sea puns fun ) and presenting myself as some flawless example everyone must follow, as we're all hypocrites to some extent. Living as cruelty-free of a lifestyle as possible, is a process, a transition, it's not something that can always realistically happen over night, and I believe every change, every choice people make to help the animals and the planet is important, it doesn't have to always be all or nothing, at least for the time being.

    You seem like a very intelligent, respectful, level-headed person who has put a lot of thought into your beliefs, and I think that's good. I think respectful and polite dialogue is very important, so I thank you for respectfully giving me the chance to share my views without being harsh or disrespectful.
    Last edited by Princess Kae-Leah; 07-16-2015 at 01:49 AM.
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  13. #13
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    Thank you for the complement. I let others talk first out of respect. It guarantees they get their perspective out before there is any vendetta (not everyone is as respectful as you have been). Because I have not said anything they don't like yet, they tell me their side without trying to attack me. Also, it is a bit of an olive branch. It lets them know that I am going to treat them as ladies and gentlemen. I strive to be a gentleman myself, but I never say that I am. I'd feel as if I would be bragging, which is not gentleman like.

    You too seem to have your head on your shoulders. I am glad you are trying to promote your cause in a more peaceful way. I have seen far too many on that side that take the more forceful approach. I can also relate to you in that as a Christian I have seen many of my brethren try the same tactics in attempts to turn them to Christ. I was one of them once, and I can tell you, it does not work. In many cases, it just pushes them away. I can't force them no matter how important I believe it is.

    As you probably already guessed, I am not a vegetarian, but I am also no fool. I will never take more then what nature can handle. I also feel a connection with nature, but it is as a role. That role is that of an omnivore, which means I am a part time predator. However, just like the dog I spoke of earlier, most of the time I am friendly. Nature does not play by my rules. I can get some of them, like my dog, to be my friend, but to think all animals will culminate around me with love can be a very dangerous thought. There is an island off the cost of Florida that tried that with Alligators. They allowed no hunting, opting for relocation instead, even for aggressive adults. Two decades past with few problems, but then all that changed. Large gators were being spotted in peoples yards on a regular basis and they were not fearful of humans. Pets started to disappear. The gators would not leave because people were feeding them, so they associated them with food. There were attacks and at least one person was killed. It got so bad they had to call a hunt to get the gator population under control by killing the ones that were aggressive, and over 4 Ft, but they were finding ones that were well over 12. They did not wipe out the alligators nor did they reduce them to unhealthy levels, but simply took measures to make sure people could live safely.

    Also, there is one thing you and I may agree on, poaching is abhorrent. You may not think it at first, but hunters hate poachers. Unless they are killing an animal for safety purposes, hunters try to give their prey a fighting chance, and that means most of the time the animal gets away, or was never spotted in the first place. Hunters are okay with that, poachers are not. They use tools and methods that make it so easy, it is no fair for the animal. They also take without thought. Hunters want healthy places to hunt. If you take without reason, there will be no next season. Even if they were not able to find anything, the forests, wet lands, and other environments are beautiful to behold. Poachers don't care of that. Most poachers that are turned in were done so by hunters. Going back a few posts, If I were a real merman, I would take pleasure in finding them and reporting those slim balls in.

    Alright, there's my post for the day.

  14. #14
    Hunting is a very tough issue for me, because on one hand from a strictly environmental standpoint I can see how hunting for wild game can have a smaller footprint than factory farming, and certain species like deer are said to be overpopulated anyway, and I realize there are some cultures who do their best to hunt in a respectful and sustainable manner. There are some parts of the world too where they don't have much of a choice but to hunt to survive. Raina has educated me that in Northern Canada, store-bought food is very very expensive, for example a carton of milk costs $15+ and produce is often spoiled by the time it arrives there, plus it takes a lot of fossil fuels to transport food there in the first place, so yeah in situations like that I may not like the idea, but I can understand why they would hunt. I'm sure there are even some people in less extreme climates that are poor and use hunting as a cheap way to provide food for their family. I do realize that hunting legally if it's actually for food and not sport/trophies is not exactly the same thing as illegally poaching.
    However...I still can't honestly say I like the idea. Hunting is regulated, at least to some extent, but I still see plenty of problems with hunting culture. One of the Duck Dynasty guys was quoted as saying nothing makes him happier than blowing a head off a duck. I'm just not OK with that kind of sadistic attitude, taking a life is serious, it shouldn't be fun and games, yet while I realize not all hunters hunt strictly for sport, trophy/sport hunting is still legal to some extent in many parts of the world and for many animals. In the Arctic, people go to trophy-hunt polar bears, people go to Africa to shoot many wild animals, including some endangered species, and despite being top predators that are vital to the ecosystem, it's legal in some places to fish for sharks.
    As for as invasive species and such go, I think in most cases culls are unnecessary. There are plenty of humane alternatives to consider, such as if for example deer are over-populated in an area, a trap-neuter-release program. A lot of people are scared of shark attacks and as such try to justify a shark-fishing season, yet the truth is that WAY more humans kill sharks than sharks kill people. At most only like a dozen people are killed worldwide by sharks, will some statistics claim as much as 100 million sharks are killed by people. I think some culls are motivated more by selfish human interests than for the good of the ecosystem, for example, here in the Pacific Northwest, some sea lions were killed because the salmon fishing industry didn't like that the sea lions were eating "their fish". Similar reasons have motivated the commercial seal hunt in Atlantic Canada. I do not think people have a right to kill animals for just trying to survive, since unlike them we can survive without eating fish.
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  15. #15
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    I can see what you mean about not liking the idea of a life being taken. Though I am okay with it, not everyone is comfortable with the subject of death, but I can see it affects some people more then others. Almost ten years ago, I had just become a lifeguard. Six weeks in, I witnessed something that most guards never in their whole career experience, a heart attack victim. We hooked him up to the AED and shocked him. I could see the monitor on the side of the device, and his heart rhythm was not good. After the second time we shocked him, I could only see a flat line on the monitor. At that moment, that man was clinically dead, but we shocked him one more time. He had a faint pulse and shallow breathing afterward. A lady who worked at the front desk was in tears over it all, and it made me feel guilty because I felt like I could get back to work if they wanted me to. For me, it was a part of my job, though one that I will never forget, but for her, it shook her hard to see him that way. Seeing death if only for a moment affected her greatly

    One thing that may be good news to you is that even hunters that hunt for trophies don't do so for only that reason. Almost all hunters use every part of the animal they can. If they don't eat the meat themselves, they donate it to places like soup kitchens. In fact, in places with a lot of deer, soup kitchens get a major part of their food supply from hunters that donated venison.

    When it comes to other methods of controlling deer populations, nothing has worked as good as hunting. An animal rights organization did try a spay/neuter and release program, but after a short while, they stopped. The cost per deer was staggering. Even if they could get it to work though, it would be dangerous for the deer populations. If there is a rough winter now days, hunting can just be held off for a season or two while the deer recover, and they'll be fine since they all can reproduce. However, if a lot of the deer are sterile, they will not bounce back fast enough. If there are two bad winters back to back, there could be a very big problem for them. Plus in the mean time, people will still hit them on the road costing millions of dollars, causing thousands of serious injuries, and several hundred deaths every year.

    I agree that we do kill more sharks then they kill us by a large number, and in the past, it was even bigger. In those days, after a shark attack, they would kill every shark they could find in the area, and I also am with you in saying "it was wrong, wasteful, and very stupid." Now days, when there is a shark attack, we don't have that nee-jerk reaction anymore, because we know that the myth of "the rogue shark" is false, and that the shark just mistook the person for its normal prey. I'm glad we know better now.
    I'm not sure where you got 100 million or if you meant yearly, but I don't think we are taking that many. There are very few fish species that would not be wiped out from a kill rate that high, and none of them are large. However, I totally disagree with shark fining for many reasons. Firstly, they don't kill the animal. If you hunt something, kill it. You don't cut it up while it's alive. Secondly, it's wasteful. People should use as much of the animal as possible: meat, fins, skin, teeth. The more you use, the less you have to kill. Lastly, it's poaching, and you know how I feel about that.

    You said that you hate violence and war, and I respect that. There are many who feel as you do, and there is nothing wrong with that. However, this is another area were you and I differ. Maybe it is because I'm a boy, perhaps it is within all of us to some degree, but whatever the reason, on some level, I like violence. Not senseless violence, but rule based competition or doing so for a good cause. The feeling of winning a sparring match or crossing swords in a fencing bout is exhilarating to me. There is a video I saw of a guy who I feel was very much justified in fighting back There was a guy going to an event with his fiancé . As they waited with the crowd outside, a few men came over to them and assaulted his fiancé. This, obviously, made him very mad, and he fought them off by himself. Even though he would have much rather had his girl not get hurt, the feeling he got from beating those that did her harm, and in front of a cheering crowd, made him feel in his words like a champion. Guys and some girls like violence. It's in our nature, and many times it does get the better of us. Fortunately, morality and codes of conduct keep most of us in check. Most people only go hunting for a few days a year, and don't stroll around looking for a fight. I will never tell you that you have to like violence, but sometimes it is necessary.

    There's more, but I've already said a mouth full.

  16. #16
    Now I actually don't have a problem with fencing at all, as a sport. I do dislike violence in general, but I actually find fencing interesting because I'm a big fan of the anime/manga Revolutionary Girl Utena, which is ultimately about fencing. I cosplay as Utena and carry a plastic sword. I hate living things dying and suffering unnecessarily, and I hate guns and weapons in real life, but unlike hunting fencing as a sport and cosplaying as a character while holding a fake sword does not usually kill anyone.

    Yes I mean 100 million sharks killed yearly. I can't vouch for its total accuracy but I believe that number is commonly repeated by animal welfare and conservation groups
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  17. #17
    Senior Member Euro Pod Echidna's Avatar
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    I'm not getting into the "hunting is needed to keep numbers stable"-discussion, because if HUNTERS hadn't wiped out all the natural predators of (for example) deer, hunting would not be needed.

    Which is, WHY the predators were wiped out in the first place- so hunters would have something to kill, and a neat excuse why they feel the need to torture and kill another creature.


    Anyway, I dislike the label "militant" which is used when people feel strongly about something, yet is mostly applied to environmentalists of some sort.
    You should see the passion (rather hatred) that gets poured out by smokers who try to justify their god-given right to expose others to their smoke.
    Yet I've never seen anyone of them called "militant smoker"

    What about militant hunters? Militant fishers? Militant puppy-kickers?

    The reason why people can get very wound up about these issues is that it's something global, terribly important which affects us all and our very survival, yet few seem willing to do something, or even acknowledge it.

    One person alone can only do so much to help- spreading awareness, starting petitions, boycotting certain products, leading a certain lifestyle.
    But we can't really go out and put a stop to a practice that we beyond all doubt know is destroying an ecosystem.

    This inevitably leads to great frustration over time, especially with jurisdictions and governments in place that will do almost anything if the bribe check is high enough.

    I often hear people say they want to be convinced with patience and tolerance and nice speeches rather than cold truths and (for them) undesirable facts.
    But I've seen so many immature, unteachable people over the years that I fear if someone refuses to see sense on their own, they are a lost cause.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Pod of Cali
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    They were killed off because the hunters wanted something to kill? I don't know were you got that fact (please show me if you can), but no.
    Firstly, if you are saying that if wolves and cougars returned, they would eventually balance out, I agree. The deer population would go down as the predator population went up. At some point there would be too many carnivores for the amount of prey, but starvation would thin the their numbers or they would move to a new area, and the deer would go up. This would go on for a while until it reaches an equilibrium. This is how it was before we got here, and it worked well, but you are leaving out one very important piece of the puzzle. We are here, and that changes the situation dramatically.
    Let me ask this. Say you wanted to go for a swim in your tail, and you had two areas you could go. The first had been recently hunted. The other is off limits to hunting and is a known for its large alligators. Which one would you choose? I told a story earlier about what happened on an island that thought they could live in peace with the gators. It didn't end well.
    The land carnivores were cleared from human areas for the same reason I explained earlier as to why the alligators needed to be hunted on the island. The difference is that now you are talking about terrestrial predators not semi aquatic ones. Carnivores, especially land ones, don't like competition, weather it be for prey or territory or breeding rivals, and defend their turf fiercely some times to the death. They did try reintroducing wolves into areas that had cities and where deer were numerous. For a time, things were fine, until they hit the peak where there was not enough prey. They didn't starve out, they moved, to the human areas. It started on the out skirts were they ate garbage and livestock. Since people were feeding them, they lost their fear of people. Animals that are not afraid of you don't see you as a friend, they just aren't scared of you anymore. Since they could not be hunted, there was no reason for them to be scared of people, so they went into territory that was owned by humans and took over it. They ate their livestock, garbage, pets (wolves kill dogs on site), and made it too dangerous to live there. There were several attacks but fortunately no deaths. For the most part people are smart enough to get to safety when confronted with wolves.
    The reason that we kill predators off in human areas is to make them safe for us and our animals. Wolves and other predators do the same thing to clear out the competition, so they have food, water, and a safe place to breed, den, and raise their young. Predators do go into other predators' territory and if the other is weaker or does not put up a fight, the new one claims the area as his own and protects it himself. That is what they see us as, competition (regardless of weather you eat meat or not. They only see you as an obstacle). Them fearing us is a good thing for both them and us. It means that we are safe from them, and they know to run so they don't get shot. There are areas for them that we let them live on that will not be hunted or developed on, and if they stay there, they will be fine. But they do intrude, and we expect them to. They are animals, and on those occasions, they need to be afraid again.

    Hunters in the past did indeed act foolishly. You are right about that. They wiped out several animals and nearly did so for many more. We know better now and for at least half a century, have been much more careful. Hunting did not stop a few decades ago and only just recently start back up. It has been here all along, and yet species, even hunted ones, recovered. Why? Because hunting was regulated, and hunters themselves agree it is for the better. One of the good things it did was raise a lot of money for conservation. Hunting licenses are expensive, and a lot of that money goes towards keeping the environment healthy. Same thing with hunting gear. A certain percentage of the money generated goes to conservation. In fact, excuse me if I say this, the hunting industry gives so much to conservation that it surpasses what animal rights organizations give.
    Also, hunters are not just brainless, toothless hillbillies and rednecks that the media likes to portray us as. We are teacher, lawyers, plumbers, programmers, and busyness men and women of all ages.

    If you don't mind me asking, who do you consider "militant hunter, fisher, and puppy kickers?" I not sure what group you speak of. If it is poaching, you already know I hate that. What exactly were you talking about?

  19. #19
    Senior Member Pod of Cali
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    Fencing is fun, but it is very different from what people think it is. So much of it is footwork. In fact, some say fencing is 70 percent in the feet. Right now I'm into "historic fencing," which is fencing as a martial art. It uses a lot of different swords from periods through out history. My favorites are the German Longsword (a two handed sword) and the Rapier. The Longwood is a lot lighter then the movies make it seem (only about 3.5 lb.), and is very versatile. Here is a link if you want to see what it looks like. It just the techniques in this video, so I don't think you will object to anything. Neither of theses guys are me just so you know.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3DhjFUOG6Y

    The rapier is a lot more brutal in real life. Most people think of it as an elegant weapon to be used with great finesse. It is, but it is designed to be very devastating. The point is made to go through any place on the body including the head. Another link if you wan to see. Again only the techniques though it does show the manual pictures, and neither of these guys are me.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ccg472EKsNY

    I'd be careful about stating the number 100 million if you can't find where it came from. We do still kill a lot of sharks, but I doubt it is that many.
    Last edited by TritonsGuard; 07-18-2015 at 04:25 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Echidna View Post

    Anyway, I dislike the label "militant" which is used when people feel strongly about something, yet is mostly applied to environmentalists of some sort.
    You should see the passion (rather hatred) that gets poured out by smokers who try to justify their god-given right to expose others to their smoke.
    Yet I've never seen anyone of them called "militant smoker"

    What about militant hunters? Militant fishers? Militant puppy-kickers?
    I do think many militant hunters and militant fishers exist. As much as I hate the idea of hunting in general, there is a line to be drawn between "normal" hunters who obey the regulations, don't hunt endangered species, and eat the meat/aren't wasteful and what might be labeled "militant hunters". I'm thinking of those prolific big game trophy hunters who travel all over the world killing wild animals, some of which are endangered and many of which are in any case top predators that are vital for a balanced ecosystem, for no reason except to collect "trophies". I think the key element here is sadism, I would call a "militant hunter" someone who enjoys killing for the sake of killing, who enjoys the power trip from killing a bunch of dangerous wild animals and showing it off. Where what might be classified as "normal hunters" who are law-abiding, not wasteful, and have at least some degree of respect for nature are not always genuinely cruel people, but are simply products of their culture/environment. I can understand that if someone grew up in an area where hunting was very common and no one saw anything wrong with it, of course there's a good chance they won't think differently. I try to keep in mind sometimes that animal rights is still in some ways a fairly new idea, most AR organizations have only been around for a few decades at most, so realistically of course it'll take a while for things to completely change.
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