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Thread: Changing The Militant Image Of Animal Rights Activists

  1. #21
    Senior Member Pod of Cali
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    When people address an organization as militant, they mean that the people in question are trying to force their vision of how things should be on others in ways that are frowned upon (illegal, harassing, blocking out other opinions). I hate smoking too, but if they are staying in a smoking area, not shaming others, or taking down flyers put up by those opposing their view, they are not being militant. Not saying any of you are doing this, but animal right activists have been known to do things like that.

    Endangered species. No wants to see them go extinct, but sometimes they are killed for good reasons.
    In rural areas, there are people that own a lot of land, and earn their living on it. Many people's whole lives are invested in the land their land. However, there is a big problem if an endangered animal appears on their property. If an official sees that an endangered species, that place becomes protected from any development, even if it is never seen there again. That means if there an animal on the list seen on your land, you can't do anything on it anymore. You can't build, farm, you can't even set up a swing set or rake the leaves. Worst of all, the government does not give you compensation for it because they say they have not technically taken your land, they just forbid you from doing anything with it. That is not just stupid, it's un-constitutional. Now you have lost everything that you have worked all your life for and they won't pay you for it. So a lot of people out there if they see an endangered species on their land will do what has been called the "triple S." Shoot, Shovel, and Shut up. They don't want to see the animal go extinct, but for them, it's not worth risking your livelihood. If you are wondering why they can't just relocate them, ask the federal government. Farmers and many others have been trying to do that for years with no success.
    The second good reason is for conservation money. Remember when I told you about how hunting generates a lot of money for conservation? Well in order to hunt an endangered animal it is extremely expensive ($10,000 to $20,000 for the just the chance to take one animal. And those like the rhino that they were auctioning off that needed to be put out of its misery, $250,000 to $1 million) and a large portion of it goes to conservation. You may be thinking it is counter productive to hunt something you are trying to bring back, but it isn't, cause they only allow a certain amount to be taken, not enough to affect the health of the species. Most of the money is put into taking care of the animals and making sure they are healthy. There was a man who started a preserve like this in Texas. He started out with around 500 antelope from Africa. After about a decade, he had around 3,000 and getting more. I think he even released some back in to Africa. Unfortunately (I'm not saying you guys), animal rights groups worked to get it banned. Now he has a huge plot of land that he can do nothing on. He can't even get them moved to the animals home continent, even if he could, it would be way too expensive. There is not much he can do but let loose the predators.

    Another problem I have with environmentalists is they don't realize that if you try to raise animals up by pushing humans down, they will inevitably claw their way back, and many times the activists end up with a worse situation then before. Humans are here, so there are two things you can do. Fight them, or deal with them. It is possible for us both to get something out of this, I already showed explained one above. Is that not better then it would been to have those 3000 (and eventually more) animals and having a lot of them transported back to where they came from?

    Lastly, most hunters are not blood thirsty. They get most of their pleasure from tracking and stocking, but also from going through the forest with friends and maybe their dog. Coming home for a barbecue with your family and friends, donating some of the meat to the soup kitchen, and getting a rug or antlers. There are blood thirsty hunters, but not many of them, and even if they are, they too for the most part obey the law. For those that don't are the poachers, and hunters hate them.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Euro Pod Echidna's Avatar
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    If you don't mind me asking, who do you consider "militant hunter, fisher, and puppy kickers?" I not sure what group you speak of. If it is poaching, you already know I hate that. What exactly were you talking about?
    Kae-Leah explained that very well.

    There is also a huge portion of "hunters" that become super aggressive as soon as you don't agree with them.
    Up to the point that they level their gun at you (didn't happen to me personally, but it was really unneccessary).

    I also said I didn't want to discuss this at length, because I can tell from all that you wrote about this topic, no matter what I say, you likely won't change your views one bit.

    I have seen (and argued with) a fair share of hunters.
    What is common to all of them is
    1) they have this innate aggression and bloodthirstiness which they deny having, but it's there
    2) they will always have loads of reasons why their hobby is necessary, but none of them are really valid
    3) most will use any opportunity to kill something as long as they can get away with it.

    The "rangers" here claim to protect the wildlife and thus shoot any stray dog or cat they see.
    Even if said dog is on a leash and its owner walks 2 paces behind him, and the cat is around 20 metres away from the owner's backyard sitting in the sun.
    (Yep, that happens often.)

    I'm going to address your mention of natural predators and why they did have to be removed for human's safety though.
    You are barking at the wrong tree in that regard, mate.
    Trying to use the big-ol' scare card here on me?

    I was born in Romania.
    The people there have lived since forever close together with wild wolves, bears, cougars, lynxes, you name it.
    Lately, many of the larger predators have left the woods and come to forage in the outlying towns (garbage bins are easier than hunting).
    Want to know just how many humans, including children, fell victim to those dangerous, savage beasts?

    Zero.
    But I bet you already knew that.

    I'm not saying it didn't happen ever elsewhere, btw.
    Alligators can be very dangerous. So can bears.
    But generally, if people aren't idiots and know how to behave, nothing happens.

    So how about instead of wiping out entire species so humans can be dumb and completely removed from nature, teach them how to live with animals again.
    Because it's totally possible.
    Last edited by Echidna; 07-19-2015 at 01:59 AM. Reason: spell fails

  3. #23
    Amen, Echidna! Very well-said
    Humanity just needs to be educated about what precautions to take around wild animals, and always keep in mind that we but one of many species on this planet.
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  4. #24
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    If you wish to leave, then do so. It is your right to walk away if you want, and I will not hold it against you if you do. There is no win or lose in this discussion, and if it has turned into that, for either of us then it should end.
    However, if you wish to continue, by all means, read on.

    First of all, if anyone points a gun at you in anything other then self defense, then he or she is committing a crime and needs to be in jail. If they are doing that, get it on tape. It would help your cause out a lot. That being said, I am not that person, and I will never harm you over words, even if you accuse me of lying or being deceptive. Get to that in a bit.

    I'll go down your list
    1. I did not deny I had aggression. In fact, I even stated that I like combat to an extent, and that I fantasize about being a hero by combat. And yes the tracking and stocking of prey does give us a thrill, and the kill does give us some satisfaction in that we accomplished something very difficult. I was not even exposed to hunting till I was much older then most (late 20's), yet I still liked it.

    2. Other then what you just posted you have offered no rebuke of what I have said so far. She and you gave me your views, I gave you mine, you and she gave statements an asked questions, and I gave my answers, but you never really went back until now, which I will address in a bit.

    3. Really? I'm frequently around a lot of guys with guns way out in the middle of nowhere. If we shot anything, no one would know, but I have never seen anyone shoot anything living outside of hunting trips. If we did as you said, we would be eating squirrel everyday, and there would be no doves or ravens in the area.

    If the rangers are shooting pets, get it on camera. You take them down very quickly.

    Scare card? I merely told what happened. What you just did is give what is called a "straw man argument." Please don't accuse me of something when there is reasonable doubt that I did do it. Let's keep this civilized.

    Perhaps I didn't speak clearly on a few my points. I already said that it was foolish in the past to try to exterminate the carnivores, and now we are the ones keeping deer in check, but reintroducing them will require people to put a few things in place. Things that places like Louisiana (and your birth country, which I'll get to in a minute) have.
    Louisiana has more gators then Florida, and massively more then the island I spoke of, yet it has never had any problems with them. Why? Because they kill all aggressive gators (the ones that lost their fear of people, or are eating our animals), they keep them away from swimming areas, and they hunt them if there are too many. What I mean by too many is there numbers grow so large, there is too little prey for that many gators. If animals can't find food in there natural habitat, they venture closer to people. For instance, I found seagulls eating at my town's dump, and it is around a hundred miles from the ocean and in the middle of a desert. Even though we don't need to do anything about this since we don't have to worry about aggressive seagulls, it proves my point that animals go where there is food.

    As for Romania, hitherto, I knew only what popular culture here in the states tells us about it. That one of your rulers from the middle ages, Vlad Draculea (A.K.A. Vlad the Impaler), was the inspiration for the titular character in Bram Stoker's novel "Dracula." Needless to say, I knew nothing about anything in Romania. However, in the last day or so I have done some research. Let me start by saying, your birth country is gorgeous. Romania has a very rich history, the architecture is truly amazing, and it has a fascinating culture. I probably going to be looking more into it for while because it is quite interesting. I may want to go there someday. Thank you very much for turning my attention towards it.
    You stated that Romania does not have a predator problem, but you also gave me the notion that you were saying there was no there hunting either. I am not going to accuse you of any kind of deception. You may not know this, so you might want to take a look. In fact there is quite a bit of hunting in Romania. It took only one google search and I got a lot of sites dedicated to setting up hunting trips in Romania and a Wikipedia page about it.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunting_in_Romania
    Although it is not a quotable source, there are not many places that have a Wikipedia page dedicated to hunting in their country, and a decent one at that. It seems it has a rich and regale history in hunting as well. Did you know that Romania started a regulated hunting policy 70 years before the states did? That means they have had a big head start on balancing things out. What they are doing is hunting the predators at the same time as the herbivores, so there are few times when there are too many of either. Also, they hunt aggressive or nuisance animals such as wolves.
    http://www.hunting-in-romania.com/wolf.html
    Bear are hunted too.
    http://hunting-in-romania.com/bear.html
    I would not be surprised if there was more hunting in Romania then in any one of the states in our union. This sounds more like my idea of living with the animals then yours. You might want to come up with a better place to reference
    What the area in the states that I spoke of earlier did not do is what your country is doing, and what I believe should be doing, hunting to balance things out.
    Also, it is not just about attacks. It is about damage and loss. People lose livestock, crops can be broken into, and although most people know better then to approach a wild predator, it can trap them in or out of their home. And if you drug them and take them somewhere else, it's going to happen to someone else, cause they now think that humans around means easy food and no threat.

    I know you hate what I am saying, and if you want me to leave this page, I will. Just let me know on your next post. You can even have the last word if you want. I'm just giving my 2 cents. I'm glad that you are trying to put a better face on animal rights, but part of that is to be polite to others, even those that have a different view. I'm trying to give you that respect.

    I if I hurt your feelings, but I am not sorry for who I am.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by TritonsGuard View Post
    Lastly, most hunters are not blood thirsty. They get most of their pleasure from tracking and stocking, but also from going through the forest with friends and maybe their dog. Coming home for a barbecue with your family and friends, donating some of the meat to the soup kitchen, and getting a rug or antlers. There are blood thirsty hunters, but not many of them, and even if they are, they too for the most part obey the law. For those that don't are the poachers, and hunters hate them.
    My issue honestly with that point is that one can get the same kind of enjoyment without killing animals. It's great to enjoy going out in nature, I know that's why so many people enjoy hunting and fishing, but why can't you do that without killing anything? Like instead of someone going fishing, why can't a person go out in a rowboat on the lake and read a book instead? Instead of hunting and killing wild animals, why can't someone dabble in wildlife photography instead and shoot animals with a camera and not a gun, or get a sketchbook and draw the animals and nature around them?

    Donating to soup kitchens is wonderful. I'm a big supporter of charity work too myself, as an avid Toys For Tots volunteer buying and donating around 20 toys each year. Can't they donate food to charity without killing wild animals?

    I do understand how rewarding that "thrill of the hunt" feeling can be, as I collect vintage fashion dolls from thrift stores and doll shows. I love finding a valuable vintage Barbie in a thrift store after finding nothing worth buying for months. I also like to collect vintage Disney VHS tapes. If hunters enjoy that thrill of the hunt, why not instead satisfy that urge by collecting an item you enjoy, whether it be stamps, baseball cards, vinyl records, whatever? Buying old stuff from thrift stores and flea markets is not only fun and often pretty inexpensive, it's can be pretty eco-friendly too because every time you buy an old used item, you're potentially saving it from a landfill. Vintage toys and many other items are made from non-biodegradable plastics that we really should do our best to keep out of landfills, so vintage collecting can be a sustainable as well as enjoyable hobby.

    I think it's very sad indeed if the most effective way to raise money for conservation is by people paying ridiculous sums of money to kill endangered animals. There is just no need to kill a lion or a rhino, I'm sorry but I just don't understand the mentality of someone wanting to shoot such majestic animals.

    One of the very few arguments in favor of hunting that actually does make some degree of sense to me is the argument that hunting or fishing wild animals yourself has less impact on the environment and/or might cause less suffering than factory farming livestock and commercial fishing, provided of course that one carefully obeys all the regulations, is not wasteful, kills it as humanely as possible, and hunts and fishes only species that are not endangered in any way. I think if someone must eat meat and seafood, I admit that killing one deer per year and having it be your main source of meat is certainly more sustainable than eating factory-farmed meat regularly. Likewise if someone must eat fish, catching it yourself on a rod or spearfishing means little or no bycatch loss and no fuel from shipping and processing commercial seafood.
    Last edited by Princess Kae-Leah; 07-19-2015 at 11:44 PM.
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  6. #26
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    Do you all want me to answer this, because this conversation seems to be getting heated? You have been very nice, and I thank you for that, but Echidna seems to be getting very angry. I don't want this to get out of hand. I entered this wanting to present my ideas with respect to others and you all to respect mine. That's why I hear you out, why I show were I agree with you, how sometimes our goals can both be met, and why I never assume or place any blame on you as an individual. Already I am seeing signs that if we continue, both our causes will drowned in our anger. I want to wait for her answer, but if she does not or if she wants me to go, I'll send you a message.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by TritonsGuard View Post
    Do you all want me to answer this, because this conversation seems to be getting heated? You have been very nice, and I thank you for that, but Echidna seems to be getting very angry. I don't want this to get out of hand. I entered this wanting to present my ideas with respect to others and you all to respect mine. That's why I hear you out, why I show were I agree with you, how sometimes our goals can both be met, and why I never assume or place any blame on you as an individual. Already I am seeing signs that if we continue, both our causes will drowned in our anger. I want to wait for her answer, but if she does not or if she wants me to go, I'll send you a message.
    You're welcome for me being nice haha . The whole reason I started this thread in the first place is I wish to attempt to change people's perception of animal rights activists by presenting a friendly and reasonable image. Thank you as well for hearing me out and admitting the few times when you do agree with me .
    As for Echidna, I respect how passionate she is about these issues, admittedly especially since she and I seem to be on pretty much the same page on most issues, but I'm sorry if she has made you uncomfortable. I think throughout this whole discussion I have always remained calm, polite, and rational, but Echidna doesn't seem to enjoy hearing your side at all, to state the obvious. I think what that really comes down to is she has already argued and debated with hunters several times in the past, so she's already very familiar with all the usual pro-hunting talking points so she got frustrated
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  8. #28
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    Yes that might be so. I have argued against those on the other side and gotten frustrated before. When things don't go well for any of us, we get mad. However, I have tried to keep in mind that all of you, including her, are entitled to your own opinion and thus deserve respect. If I don't give you that, it is no more then a flame war, and then everyone's mad. I don't like being part of stuff that just makes people want to reach through the internet and strangle the person on the other side. I want to make it clear, I am not mad at you at all. You have put forth your posts with dignity and respect. You said you were different before this. From how you have presented yourself to me, you are a good person, with great control over your reactions. It couldn't have been easy to look over what I've said, I know it wasn't for me at times to read yours, but you kept your self control. That is something I believe is praise worthy. I only hope I have given you the same respect. Another reason I came here was also to see if you were telling the truth that you were willing to be polite and patient, and you have done so.

    I don't know if that means anything to you coming from me, but well done.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Euro Pod Echidna's Avatar
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    Thanks Tritonsguard, for looking into my birth country.
    I am not angry. You are making good points and are considerate in discussion.

    Of course I know there is loads of hunting going on in Romania
    I never said there wasn't.
    (Most of it is rich tourists from western Europe, who wish to kill larger prey than what they have in their countries. Romania is one of the few spots in Europe with large predators left.)

    What I meant was there is no effort to EXTERMINATE the large predators as a species, which happened in most western European countries with the argument that people otherwise wouldn't be safe.
    This argument is obviously false.
    Economical considerations, as you now mentioned, played a larger role in that (sheep, cattle).

    Now environmentalists have the stance that wild animals have the same right to be there as anyone else, so if you are a farmer and lose livestock and produce, that's not to be helped.
    It should not be legalization to go out and exterminate your "competition".
    This mindset, btw, has led to the almost extermination of seals, whales, dolphins, etc in the seas bordering Europe.

    Humans have taken almost all land here that beforehand belonged to nature, and turned it into concrete wastelands and fields. Only small patches of forest remain.

    It's no wonder animals have a hard time to survive.
    The answer to this should NOT be to thin the numbers of animals even more, so we don't feel their presence and remain "undisturbed".
    One should rather allot them more space to live naturally.
    If humans take away too much space, of course there are going to be conflicts. But humans are the source of the conflict, and not vice versa.

    Lastly, I'd like to say that our different viewpoints and experiences with hunting (as I said, the aggressive gun-pointing happens almost as often as the killing of pets here, and the latter is completely legal) has a lot to do with different countries.

    Obviously, the situation is different in a large, animal-rich, in comparison sparsely populated country and a completely packed one such as Germany (where I'm living at the moment).

    Still, there are many examples of hunters paying a fortune to travel to Africa just to shoot an elephant or other large, rare animal. Happens in other countries also.
    You cannot tell me this can in any way be justified with "reasons" other than WANTING to kill something.

    So, let's agree to disagree about the motivation.
    Last edited by Echidna; 07-20-2015 at 04:07 AM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by TritonsGuard View Post
    I want to make it clear, I am not mad at you at all. You have put forth your posts with dignity and respect. You said you were different before this. From how you have presented yourself to me, you are a good person, with great control over your reactions. It couldn't have been easy to look over what I've said, I know it wasn't for me at times to read yours, but you kept your self control. That is something I believe is praise worthy. I only hope I have given you the same respect. Another reason I came here was also to see if you were telling the truth that you were willing to be polite and patient, and you have done so.

    I don't know if that means anything to you coming from me, but well done.
    Gee thanks
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  11. #31
    Senior Member Pod of Cali Ashe's Avatar
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    I was a huge supporter of animal rights and explained animal cruelty to people who didn't quite understand. I was told that people who are meat didn't really care about animals and were animal murderers. This hurt a lot for me as I had been eating meat all my life and hadn't realty thought about it. For a few years I was in an out of being a vegetarian and I really wanted to go vegan, but everytime I went without meat for a few months, I would get really sick. I would get headaches after a couple of weeks and terrible stomach aches. I went to my doctor and he said that while vegetarianism is great for some, that wasn't the case with me. Since then, I eat meat but only on occasion when it is served to me, I try not to go out of my way to eat it.

    After that incident I joined a animal rights forum and all was well until I shared that I wasn't a vegetarian or vegan. I was verbally attacked while people called me an animal killer and a fake. There were a few who told them all to chill out, but for the most part I had earned myself the title of an animal killer. The worst part is, someone PMed me saying that they were sorry for the mess and that I wasn't the only one they had done this to. I was so angry and ashamed of myself (why should I be ashamed?) that I just left without ever visiting again. I really feel like I was driven out of the forum because of my diet - the one that I medically need to stick to if I don't want to get lightheaded from not enough protein (no, tofu didn't work).

    Another her thing that irks me is when radicals push their beliefs onto others. It's like religion. Do whatever you want, but I will likely want no part in it. As an example, I invited some girls out to lunch. The majority of the girls decided on a big pepperoni pizza and I was going to order a vegetarian pizza for the vegetarian girl. It didn't even take a second thought, deciding to order that pizza for her as I was still in and out of vegetarianism. She didn't care, however because she was very adamant about us all not eating meat in front of her. I can understand if it was us who were invited to her house for lunch or if it was some sort of animal fundraiser. It was very rude.

    Kae Leah, I remember some of the things that you said years ago and it definitely got on my nerves, especially after the forum episode. I know you're totally alright now and I'm glad you're admitting and apologizing for some of those things. However, if animal rights activists want people to support them, they need to not be such assholes when others can't do everything they can. I might have a reputation as an 'animal killer.' But they've earned reputations as I extremely rude and demanding. I'm definitely not one to be labeling people and especially not groups of people, but it is what I see and what many others see as well.

    You ou fight for a great cause, but if you really want to change the militant image of animal activists, you're going to have to work extremely hard.

    Sorry for the bit of a rant
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  12. #32
    I'm kind of in Kalani's position at the moment though i was looking for the right words to describe it without writing a book about it.

    The way I see it there's nothing wrong with respecting where your food came from and knowing everyone/everything is "connected in the great Circle of Life" so to speak. I just don't condone the use of name calling and labelling, and there is definitely a problem when someone tries to fuck up the whole system by overhunting/overfishing... hunting shit they shouldn't be hunting, but also abusing animals in cages and force feeding them shit so they become plump and fat for our consumption.

    People are still gonna be eating meat but the animal reserves some right to live a happy healthy life before they become someone's meal.
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  13. #33
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    Exactly what I think, Seaglass. Animal abuse is completely wrong and I fight against that. It's cruel and disgusting, same with overfishing and hunting animals for sport.

    But as for eating animals, here's how I think about it. We are animals. We are omnivores. We eat meat. Are you going to punish or harass a lion for eating a gazelle? Or an eagle for eating a pigeon?

    No you won't. Let me eat meat so I don't get sick, and I will do my best to make sure that the conditions in which it was kept and killed were humane. That's it.
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  14. #34
    just like how i prefer to live a long healthy happy life before i get eaten by maggots in my casket :o
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  15. #35
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    I havent gotten to read the other replies yet so I apologize if I touch on some overlap.

    For me it's a lot like religion. You've got people who are perfectly fine being religious. They may chat with you about it even because it's important to them and a big part of their life, but they don't disrespect you, push it on you, and you respect them for it too. And because of that you'll likely ask them a little more about their religion. You might be more open minded and tolerable about it too.

    The same thing goes for me with animal rights/ vegans/ vegetarians. I actually look up to most of them. I am always striving to do personally better within my limitations and be more responsible. But I will puncha bitch for just assuming I can live the way they do or projecting it on to me. You HAVE to give considerations to people's context. For instance, I have several illnesses that restrict what I eat drastically. I just can't stop eating meat. But I have changed my life to be as ethical as possible given the circumstances and have many meatless days. Some people poverty is a HUGE factor. They eat what is cheap and there. Not everyone is as privileged to have a choice, and I think that's a big thing some vegans/vegetarians miss. Some has to do with location and combined issues like poverty.

    Like how I often talk about Nunavut and the Inuit. Rampant poverty and starvation. 5 times the national average of suicide. Those people only just came off the land in the 60s! other aboriginal groups have been colonized for centuries. Our government tried to assimilate them and erase their identity through conform residential schools. People were beaten. Then we turn around and decide after all that trauma and beating their culture of them that oh nope, hee you can have your culture back have fun figuring out how to live in the north poll. (IN canada you had a higher chance of dying in one of these schools than in the world wars) I am very empathetic to the pain those people are in. 75% of pregnant moms go days without food. It's not even over population it's a shitty government. So I do get touchy when people lump them in with say, Taiji who comes up with BS answers for why they cull dolphins. I have so many peers who teach in Nunavut. One documented the hunting, carving up, and eating of a polar bear. Seem barbaric to us because polar bears are painted as endangered (though they actually arent statistically. They are an at risk species due to melting ice) but you know what I saw? I saw a community of starving adults and starving kids come together (which is taboo since the 60's in their culture. there is quite the identity clash between young and old so the young don't learn from the old often) all work on this animal, all eat it and all families have food. The old women taught the young girls how to tan the hide, collect the inside parts, and re purpose literally everything. Your expensive synthetic boots will do you no good in the North. Not when a seal hide or polar bear fur will keep you dry, warm, and doesnt cost anything or create carbon emissions to create. I got very upset when I saw Captain Paul Rodgers post on his page a bunch of racist stuff about the inuit because way back in the 70s he once saw one inuit kill a walrus and not use all of it. (the people are starving and poor and will sell anything they can to a tourist. If you don't like that reality you need to help them CHANGE it with support and pressure on our government. Not be racist toward all Inuit because in your DECADES of experience you once saw one guy do one thing). I got into it with him on it and backed up everything with studies and evidence and he refused to relent. I got banned from his page and sent a nasty letter to which I received a formal apology from a different admin on his team and the ban lifted.

    Paul may do a lot of good but I will NEVER respect him. When I work with kids I cant approach every bad apple like they're a bad apple! I gotta look at the context, what made this kid this way, how can I change it. Could you imagine if I argued with a parent insisting their kid was just a shit head? And then extrapolated that to all kids are shit heads? The logic makes no sense. BUt my example with Paul is just a drop in the bucket for why people take so much issue with certain figureheads in the environmental community.

    I see where he comes from too. man is super passionate. No animal left behind. He's angry because he hates the suffering. It's admirable. But if you want respect, and more importantly if you want people on your side, you NEED to pick and choose your battles.

    Sometimes the handful of seals killed each year so Inuits can have a pair of boots that will last a lifetime, out weighs the big corporation mass producing a cheap product using sweat shops and adding to the carbon emissions. It's all about balance.

    And dont get me started on peeta. They've been proven time and time again to do more harm than good, and be hypocritical.

    I think you guys get it worse in America. Your corporations do everything they can to convince people global warming is not happening. In Canada we aren't like that. We know it's happening but we're a bit more apathetic. If you show us science we'll believe you. but in America you can have science coming out your ears and someone will just call you a witch. The problem is Canada as a whole has the population of California. We do not have the population to create mass change in the world like America does. We can barely protect our own country from our militant prime minister (who just a few years ago essentially erased every single law in the country that protected water, so he could do the pipe line BS!)

    See we're all ranting, we are all passionate.

    BUT THE ONLY WAY we can change the image is to work together collaboratively, compromise on some of our ideals for the sake of others, and learn what to fight for and what it's ok to let go.

  16. #36
    Privilege.
    the key word is Privilege.
    The SeaGlass Siren

  17. #37
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    OK I just wanna give some photos for context. you know that the same photos from like the 1970s are circulated for the seal hunt still today as if that was still what was happening now? the same baby white seal and blood everywhere. People see that super old photo (which there's some suspicion it was actually stage to create the desired effect) and they extrapolate that to everything.

    Well, it's just not a good representation.

    NOTHING GORY IN THESE PHOTOS BUT TRIGGER WARNING FOR ANYONE WHO MIGHT BE UPSET BY THE USE OF FUR.



    My classmate when to the most northern community to teach. Here is one of the elders helping her make her own pair of seal boots (that my friend has worn now for three years). The women actually have no teeth as elders because in their youth they would chew the skins to help tan them.



    It's still cut to this day with an ulu: a knife made of caribou horn or bone and salvaged metal.



    It is sewn together with caribou sinew because it creates a tight seal and expands when wet.



    A finished pair of mitts from the same piece used to create the boots.

    wearing the mits is the coldest temps in the north on record


    So the pros:
    animal was eaten
    all parts were used (bones end up used for arts and crafts which the inuit sell to tourists, along with buttons and jewellery)
    no carbon emission
    created a pair of mitts and boots that will last for at least a decade and work better than man made items, are sustainable, dont support corporations, or any kind of sweat shop
    while you may not like the idea of hunting for culture, the INuit are an example of how the stamping out of their culture is directly creating a 5 times the average suicide rate. So having this experience of an elder passing down the skills is part of the culture and helps negate that to a small degree. It keeps their history and culture and tradition alive. The nice thing is, it's not like they're just randomly killing animals trying to claim that. they actually sustain themselves with animals.

    cons:
    an animal died (and honestly today they shoot them, much more humane when you think of old days when they clubbed or speared them)


    I know I am kinda beating people over the head with this I just want to give it as an example of how you really gotta look at context. I mean, we think these things are isolated but they aren't. I grew up in poverty. My dad hunted dear and bear and that's what we ate. He kept the pelts and made winter blankets. He used the other remains as bait for other animals that we ate and used. He also taught me there was a balance. We think we're in this modern world all the time where everyone has a choice but with poverty rates as high as they are all over... we just arent.

    Even shit like go shoot an animal in africa and pay money... it's terrible, but it's a result of POVERTY. Animals being exploited to negate the poverty. If we want these things to change it's about empowering others so they HAVE a choice at all.



  18. #38
    I definitely agree that people need to be educated about the Inuit. I thank you for opening my eyes to a tragic and very unique situation by North American standards that needs more attention. I mean, there are plenty of articles online about the cost of food there. Apparently a carton of milk, for example, costs $15, and produce is also very expensive and often spoiled by the time it reaches there. It would be very difficult if not impossible for them to go vegetarian or vegan even if they wanted to. In a situation like that, I can't honestly blame them for hunting for food. I have a lot of respect for the work Sea Shepherd does, but I don't agree there with Paul's unfair generalizations and total lack of empathy and sensitivity for their situation. I may not like the idea of hunting any animals, especially marine mammals like seals and narwhal, but I think in cases like that SUBSISTENCE hunting should be allowed, provided they're not wasteful, and do it in as humane and sustainable manner as possible, which it sounds like they do in general. I'm staunchly opposed to the fur trade, but I don't see a big issue with them using furs from the animals they hunted and ate for their personal use. In general although I'm against wearing fur and leather, I can understand to some extent the argument that the production of synthetics like pleather and faux fur does have a footprint and is often done in overseas sweatshops. I can't in good conscience endorse them participating in the international fur trade, if they want to sell surplus pelts for income, but I'm much more concerned about fur farms, and I do realize that when you're that poor, they don't have many other options, so I can't say they're *evil* or anything for doing that. Times are very tough up there.

    On a positive note though, I think more and more animal welfare and environmental groups are making an effort to better educated and sensitive on this issue. HSUS and IFAW both have made it clear on their websites that while they campaign against the unnecessary large-scale seal cull in Atlantic Canada, they do not campaign against Inuit small-scale subsistence seal hunting. I witnessed several Inuit on HSUS's Facebook page expressing their concerns, and the admins politely and respectfully explained that they do no oppose Inuit subsistence hunting. Now, I know, HSUS isn't a perfect organization by any means though, as it has come out that they do not always use the money they raise effectively, but I really appreciate that they try to put a much more polite and dignified face on animal rights than PETA's ridiculous and problematic media-whoring.

    Raina, I do think you made a valid point comparing vegan/vegetarians/animal rights to religion. I once got very upset when someone compared me to a Bible thumper, but I can see now that there is a similarity sometimes in not being willing to take no for an answer or being respectful of other views. Now, I'm much less focused on converting others and more focused inwardly on what I can do to improve my own lifestyle to be more animal-friendly and eco-friendly. My best friend Lisa admits to me that she occasionally eats seafood and is not at all concerned with environmentalism, and I've never pushed my beliefs on her because, well, frankly I love her to death. We have so much in common otherwise(we're both openly asexual, we both love mermaids, neither one of us can swim, we're both Disney and magical girl anime fangirls, etc., the list goes on and on, we're so much alike it's scary ) and she's been such an overwhelmingly positive influence in my life(seriously, I cannot stress enough that most of my progress of my social skills and mental state improving since I was first active on here is due to her) that I can live with the fact that she doesn't share my passion in that regard. When she came up to visit me, I told her that I don't mind if she eats something like clam chowder where the seafood isn't very visible and doesn't smell much in front of me, which I felt was a fair compromise if seeing someone eating something that was clearly a dead sea creature in front of me was upsetting.
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  19. #39
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    Good for you KL so much growth!!

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by AniaR View Post
    Good for you KL so much growth!!
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