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Thread: Changing The Militant Image Of Animal Rights Activists

  1. #101
    Senior Member North Pacific Pod Mermaid Kane's Avatar
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    Its sad what we've done to the planet. I'm sure many (if not all) alien species (if they actually exist, although I believe they do) ran into the same problem. It may be the impossible ''Wall'' of the Fermi paradox that nothing can get past. Species may just corrupt their planet beyond repair before they have the science to understand the issue and stomp the brakes, and then don't leave the planet fast enough or unsuccessfully colonize other planets. It may already be too late.



  2. #102
    Senior Member Euro Pod Echidna's Avatar
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    I prefer to think most alien species don't match humans in stupidity.
    I mean, come on.
    It doesn't take a genius to figure out that resources are limited, yet the populace all over the planet (with very few exceptions) is rapidly growing.
    While this problem has been known for decades, no government in the world has actually tackled it (China tried for a while, but the results are still lacking somewhat), on the contrary, many countries even openly SUPPORT rampant procreation.

    If you look back into human prehistory, it is pretty much a proven fact that the entire pleistocene megafauna (from cave lions/bears to mammoths and everything else larger than a rabbit) was wiped out by humans through completely idiotic "hunting" methods (i.e. killing an entire herd each time).

    While there were here and there some tribes about who knew how to exist in a subsistent way, they were always a minority (and usually deplaced or killed by the...unwise human species).
    Majority of humans can only be likened to parasites multiplying on a host til it collapses and dies.
    This is a thing, ticks and other parasites (also viruses) behave this way, but there is a difference:
    those parasites can actually find a new host after they kill their current one.
    Humans will die WITH their host , but they are still too dumb to change their behaviour.

    I have kind of given up on it tbh.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Broussard View Post
    yes, I've watched it. Once when the video came out, and then again when you posted it. Infact my first sentence is a direct quote from the video. as far as reading what you posted...not much to respond to. So I responded with my own debate.
    Ah, I misunderstood your intentions with your last post. When you said "It's not a problem so why mention it?" I thought that you were responding to me since you quoted me and all. Now I get that you were just adding to my response rather than trying to rebut me with my own point. My mistake!

    Quote Originally Posted by Echidna View Post
    I prefer to think most alien species don't match humans in stupidity.
    I mean, come on.
    It doesn't take a genius to figure out that resources are limited, yet the populace all over the planet (with very few exceptions) is rapidly growing.
    While this problem has been known for decades, no government in the world has actually tackled it (China tried for a while, but the results are still lacking somewhat), on the contrary, many countries even openly SUPPORT rampant procreation.

    If you look back into human prehistory, it is pretty much a proven fact that the entire pleistocene megafauna (from cave lions/bears to mammoths and everything else larger than a rabbit) was wiped out by humans through completely idiotic "hunting" methods (i.e. killing an entire herd each time).

    While there were here and there some tribes about who knew how to exist in a subsistent way, they were always a minority (and usually deplaced or killed by the...unwise human species).
    Majority of humans can only be likened to parasites multiplying on a host til it collapses and dies.
    This is a thing, ticks and other parasites (also viruses) behave this way, but there is a difference:
    those parasites can actually find a new host after they kill their current one.
    Humans will die WITH their host , but they are still too dumb to change their behaviour.

    I have kind of given up on it tbh.
    I understand where you're coming from, but I feel I should point out that we are not killing the planet. We are killing ourselves. We have yet to do anything to the ocean or the land where life cannot regrow from it, though it may be uninhabitable to us and the creatures that we're used to living with. Yes, we're going to kill off a lot of different species if we keep going the way we are, but life always finds a way. When we are dying of cancer from the smog and the radiation, new life that is immune to our poison is going to evolve and thrive. It's already happening, in the areas aroundChernobyl that are too radioactive for us, wildlife flourishes.

    Environmentalism isn't truly about saving the planet, it is strong enough to withstand our bullshit and it's not within our power to destroy. It's about saving ourselves and life as we've come to understand it. Most of us just haven't realized it yet.
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  4. #104
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    We've actually killed spots in the ocean. They're called dead spots

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  6. #106
    Senior Member North Pacific Pod Mermaid Kane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echidna View Post
    I prefer to think most alien species don't match humans in stupidity.
    I mean, come on.
    The Fermi Paradox is summarized by one question; Where is everyone? The universe is massive, with billions of planets in the habitable zone. Many have existed for billions or millions of years longer. So, where are the aliens? Either they are visiting, and the general populace doesn't get to know, we are under protection until we are advanced enough, or there is a Great Wall in evolution that nothing, or very little, gets past.

    It may be planetary destruction.

    What makes you think a sentient species on a different planet would develop a sense of nature faster then us? There is no reason to think they would be smarter then us just because we seem ''stupid''. They would likely have their own religions and inaccurate ideas about their world, i.e. flat earth, just like us. Nothing can instantly become nature conscious. Animals don't understand the world, and if they start t rise, they would likely make similar mistakes.

    Anyways, I agree. We're dead ass meat.



  7. #107
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    The Drake Equation

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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by AniaR View Post
    The Drake Equation
    Very familiar with this theory, its quite interesting. However, it is a SWAG theory, and is not entirely reliable.

    And, of course, I am not saying there isn't a interstellar species out there. I'm just saying planetary destruction may be a wall a species must jump over, and it may be incredibly hard.



  9. #109
    Watching blue planet 2 last night... I cried.

    In the episode Deep Seas. They show coral that has lived and grown for 4,000 years. each year growing less than a hairs width. Beautiful structures housing more life than our shallow reefs.

    Then they show the effects of deeps sea trawlers. Which drag across the sea floor absolutely destroying coral that has stood longer than the pyramids.

    If you eat fish you are contributing to this destruction. It's that simple... you can't love the ocean and kill it at the same time. That is an abusive relationship.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Broussard View Post
    Watching blue planet 2 last night... I cried.

    In the episode Deep Seas. They show coral that has lived and grown for 4,000 years. each year growing less than a hairs width. Beautiful structures housing more life than our shallow reefs.

    Then they show the effects of deeps sea trawlers. Which drag across the sea floor absolutely destroying coral that has stood longer than the pyramids.

    If you eat fish you are contributing to this destruction. It's that simple... you can't love the ocean and kill it at the same time. That is an abusive relationship.
    Blue Planet 2 does a great job captivating its viewers before showing them the affect of what we've done. And yes, trawling and fishing in general is extremely damaging. The likelihood of it stopping within our lifetime is null.



  11. #111
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    Yup. I don't eat anything from the ocean.

    My late friend Rob Stewart did a film called "Revolution". In it he pointed out that if we were devastating on land the way we do underwater, there'd be an uproar. But people are so disconnected and don't see what's happening.

  12. #112
    Honestly the thing that irks me the most about most militant animal rights activist is how they all choose to ignore that a lot of culture and people eat certain meats (fish, whales, etc) as the only source of food and continuation of culture (such as seal hunts) and demonize the people who hunt for their own food as doing nothing but killing the planet. And also that most don't seem to understand that there is privilege in having the ability to go vegan or vegetarian and there is privilege in having the ability to willingly cut out certain foods from their diets.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by AniaR View Post
    We've actually killed spots in the ocean. They're called dead spots

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    Bacteria and algae typically flourish in them. They might not be animals or plants, but they're still life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mermaid Kane View Post
    The Fermi Paradox is summarized by one question; Where is everyone? The universe is massive, with billions of planets in the habitable zone. Many have existed for billions or millions of years longer. So, where are the aliens? Either they are visiting, and the general populace doesn't get to know, we are under protection until we are advanced enough, or there is a Great Wall in evolution that nothing, or very little, gets past.

    It may be planetary destruction.

    What makes you think a sentient species on a different planet would develop a sense of nature faster then us? There is no reason to think they would be smarter then us just because we seem ''stupid''. They would likely have their own religions and inaccurate ideas about their world, i.e. flat earth, just like us. Nothing can instantly become nature conscious. Animals don't understand the world, and if they start t rise, they would likely make similar mistakes.

    Anyways, I agree. We're dead ass meat.

    The real reason is because of the vastness of the universe. Everything is too far away for us to properly observe, and it's impossible to observe it in real time. You have to remember that whenever you're looking into the sky, you're looking into the past, not as it is now. There could be life within a thousand lightyears from us, but it would take us hundreds of years before we could see it.
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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCorvidae View Post
    The real reason is because of the vastness of the universe. Everything is too far away for us to properly observe, and it's impossible to observe it in real time. You have to remember that whenever you're looking into the sky, you're looking into the past, not as it is now. There could be life within a thousand lightyears from us, but it would take us hundreds of years before we could see it.
    I am well versed in this kind of thing, no need to explain the speed of light and sound. I didn't say there aren't other sentient species roaming out there, but its likely that environmental destruction has claimed the lives of at least few alien races.



  15. #115
    Oh, I don't doubt it. Extinction would exist wherever there is life. In some cases, it could be their own fault, like what will inevitably happen to us. In other cases, it could just be plain misfortune like what happened to the dinosaurs. Can you imagine a civilization being lost to a black hole? Or their star going red giant?
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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCorvidae View Post
    Oh, I don't doubt it. Extinction would exist wherever there is life. In some cases, it could be their own fault, like what will inevitably happen to us. In other cases, it could just be plain misfortune like what happened to the dinosaurs. Can you imagine a civilization being lost to a black hole? Or their star going red giant?
    Well, if their star died and became a black hole, the cold would kill them, since the mass (and thus gravity) of the star-turned-black hole wouldn't change, and they'd stay in place.
    But, I have NO DOUBT species die from other things as well. There are so many variables! I love ET theory, so I often read about this stuff.



  17. #117
    Senior Member Pod of Texas Mermaid Delphinidae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mermaid Momo View Post
    Honestly the thing that irks me the most about most militant animal rights activist is how they all choose to ignore that a lot of culture and people eat certain meats (fish, whales, etc) as the only source of food and continuation of culture (such as seal hunts) and demonize the people who hunt for their own food as doing nothing but killing the planet. And also that most don't seem to understand that there is privilege in having the ability to go vegan or vegetarian and there is privilege in having the ability to willingly cut out certain foods from their diets.
    There's also the fact that many of them ignore other issues that come with their alternatives. Some crops use a lot of water, or they may be grown and harvested by laborers who don't get paid enough for difficult and unsafe work. I know that in our modern capitalistic society, finding a 100% ethical option for something is basically impossible, but don't act like abstaining from honey makes you a hero when sugarcane workers work in horrible conditions.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mermaid Delphinidae View Post
    There's also the fact that many of them ignore other issues that come with their alternatives. Some crops use a lot of water, or they may be grown and harvested by laborers who don't get paid enough for difficult and unsafe work. I know that in our modern capitalistic society, finding a 100% ethical option for something is basically impossible, but don't act like abstaining from honey makes you a hero when sugarcane workers work in horrible conditions.
    It's always so complicated. What works or makes sense for one nation may not work for the next. And sometimes people don't think of the negativity their "helping" can cause. Like when I didn't realize that helping tribes with education and technology could be so unwelcome and harmful to them... I totally didn't think of that.
    If world problems were easy to solve, we would've already.



  19. #119
    Senior Member Chesapeake Pod swordwhale's Avatar
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    oooooooooooooooo polite rant time (or, civil discourse)

    Yes, all living beings deserve respect and good living conditions.

    Ancient culture knew this, even while eating and wearing said living beings.

    My cats are obligate carnivores, they cannot be vegans (and it's bad for your dog too), nor can the hawks and owls I worked with as a wildlife rehab volunteer. My horses and goats have always been vegan... except for the pony that ate a hot dog...

    I know people with guns who use them responsibly to put Bambi in the freezer. We are overrun with Bambi (here in PA) and I (literally) have run into a few myself (a deer jumping in front of your car can kill you). While I'd applaud the introduction of wolves into our local woods, they would not like it here (too civilized). Perhaps we just need more and bigger coyotes (those we have and they are adaptable). Or more of those cougars we keep hearing urban legends about... That said, "sport" or "trophy" hunting is ridiculous, yeah, get a camera. And why would you hunt carnivores? We need them to keep the balance.

    We need fewer humans (here's where I shout give women around the world education, access to all manner of health and reproductive care, and they'll take care of the problem themselves). We need more humans eating more sensibly. Our factory farming is a result of trying to get cheap meat... meat is not cheap. Pigs are too smart and social to be in cages. So are the rest of the critters. Of course the world cannot be One Giant Honkin Pasture either. Or One Giant Honkin Soy Farm. Nature loves diversity.

    Nature also loves herds that move the way they do in the wild when pushed by predators. Keeps the entire system (even on farms and ranches) healthy.

    Neuter and spay needs to be pushed even more. Not all solutions work in all places (let me tell you about the circus my cousin has trying to roundup and neuter the barn cats...), but spay and neuter is a great start for our most populous pets. We have come a long way; back in my childhood, everyone tied their farm dogs outside, left them un-neutered, and drowned extra puppies and kittens they couldn't give away. That was the harsh truth. Now we have inexpensive clinics and folks like the SPCA trying to do their best to stem the tide of unwanted pets. I have seen too many clueless people with un-neutered animals, or those who say something like "I have a "purebred" and am gonna breed it..." No, you do not need to breed it. if you are a legit breeder (I think the AKC might have some info on what constitutes a legit breeder) you are working to continue and improve a breed, showing, working, or otherwise being a responsible person handling that breed.

    I will extend this to equines too. I bred ONE mare (and have her daughter till she dies of old age, like her mom) and see too many similar tales of "bred my mare and ..." now your extras ended up in the kill pen.

    Points for the organizations rehoming off the track Thoroughbreds, kill pen rescues, moving dogs and cats from kill shelters to no-kill shelters to furever homes. And points to the parks and nature centers educating future generations.

    Education education education. I (and other horsewomen I know) have had the SPCA show up in our drive because some idiot... I mean, clueless non-horsemen... saw our horses standing out in the rain... BECAUSE THEY LIKE TO (they have shelter... in fact, after one storm I went out to find an ancient tree horizontal... right down the middle of my 16' wide horse shed. I counted brown butts and found the requisite two, because the old mustang's Theory Of Storms is round up your mares and go stand out in the middle of them so Thor can smite you. He saved both their lives.) Or the snow (they're weatherproof, they are actually insulated so much that snow on their backs does not melt). And now it's spring, the season when all rescues get "dead horse" calls because after a looooooooooong winter and mud season, the horses are lying flat out in the sun... don't even get me started on "why are they blindfolded" (fly mask) or "why are they wearing blankets in the summer???" (fly sheets).

    Now I shall also do the Musher Rant: every year around the Iditarod, every gung ho animal "rights" nutjob screams about a sled dog race. Without knowing anything about sled dogs. A. those dogs in the race have better health care than most Americans. B. Vet checks at every checkpoint. C. Nobody runs this race because they like money and hate dogs. You don't make money doing this, or very very few make a wee bit. There are easier ways to make money. D. DOGS LOVE TO RUN It's their instinct to hunt and run in a pack. Try keeping a Siberian husky in your living room. It will eat your living room unless you hook it to a bike and let it pull you down a trail for an hour or two. E. the dogs are having fun, it's the humans who are going without sleep taking care of dogs, massaging dogs, feeding dogs, thawing water for dogs, feeding dogs, bootying dogs, unbootying dogs, harnessing dogs, falling off dogsleds, clinging for dear life to sleds ricocheting off rocks... dogs just wanna have fun...

    I've worked with enough non-releasable wildlife to see the impact coming face to face with a real live animal has. That third grader will never forget coming eye to eye with a redtail hawk. And now he cares. I adore going to the aquarium, or zoos. If they are properly maintained. I'm not sure how I feel about small dolphins in aquariums... they make an impact, but can they truly be happy? My "logo" is "swordwhale" and orcas simply are too large, intelligent, social, and travel too far to ever keep in a bathtub. Which is what aquariums are to them.

    Zoos have been crucial for scientific learning and conservation of species, especially endangered ones.

    Education is key, for everything. Hear the other side, use civil discourse, then see how you can move forward in consensus.

    Seeing the big picture is important too: the planet as an entire ecosystem that needs us to be part of it, not thinking we are somehow separate. And treating that with deepest respect.

  20. #120
    Senior Member Chesapeake Pod swordwhale's Avatar
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    Well said.

    I have also run into "the privileged few" who emphatically proclaim "do this!!!"

    Um, I can't afford to.

    There are many solutions to a shipload of problems. One size does not fit all.

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