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Thread: Aquariums

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Theobromine View Post
    Kassandra, DON'T feel bad for starting this thread. If anything, this whole thing highlights the importance of sharing this information! Kudos to you!

    As to swimming in aquariums, there was actually a whole thread about that a little while back, and Mermaid Cora from Reef HQ Aquarium in Queensland actually posted a REALLY detailed and insightful comment about it. I'll see if I can find that thread and link it here. For those who don't know, Cora works full time as an aquarist there (we actually went to the same university!) but also performs there as a mermaid, so she has a really good viewpoint of both sides.

    KayNS, your point about ocean literacy is right on! Seeing such amazing creatures in real life gives you a feeling of connection that even the most wonderfully filmed documentary can never give you. As for your second point, about the morality of keeping animals in captivity, I actually addressed all of those questions in my first post in this thread But I'm also going to expand on those points and provide further information. I completely understand that a lot of people question the morality of captivity. I myself am 100% AGAINST animals being exploited for entertainment and improperly cared for, just to be clear. I'm a bleeding-heart animal lover, trust me. I've also worked in aquarium stores a couple of times and I'm that person who is more likely to tell you NOT to buy the fishes if I don't think your tank is big enough or that you don't know how to take care of them, haha. Believe me, I'm pretty much a crusader for animals being treated as well as possible.

    So, I guess because this discussion is finally back on track and continuing in this thread (whew), I will continue to post information here. I'll probably break it up into a few different posts, though, to keep it easier to read and so I don't have to keep putting it off until I have the time to sit down and write one gigantic epic mega-post. Also, if any other biologists and aquarists on here want to weigh in with their experiences or add any information I may have missed, PLEASE do so! I certainly don't pretend that I know all there is to know and I LOVE to learn from other people and hear about their experiences!

    Ok, first, I'll provide some background information about how aquariums (and zoos, for that matter) are regulated and accredited. All the statements I've already made about aquariums generally pertain to accredited institutions (non-accredited ones can be hit or miss and you kind of have to take them on a case-by-case basis, they're a little harder to evaluate and you can't make any blanket statements about them). The big regulating organization for zoos and aquariums in the US (and for some other countries) is Association of Zoos and Aquariums (AZA). Check out their website, as it provides a TON of information about how this works, but I'll summarize it here and quote a few parts. AZA conducts rigorous inspections and provides accreditation for all zoological institutions that seek AZA member status. As you can see on their Accreditation page, accreditation is "official recognition and approval of a zoo or aquarium by a group of experts. These experts, called the AZA Accreditation Commission, carefully examine each zoo or aquarium that applies for AZA membership. Only those zoos and aquariums that meet our high standards can become members of AZA." Maintaining AZA accreditation status is also an ongoing process, not just a one-time pass: "AZA accredited zoos and aquariums are constantly evolving and standards are continuously being raised. Each zoo or aquarium must keep up with these changes to remain AZA accredited. And to prove it, they must go through the entire accreditation process every five years. AZA believes that nothing is more important than assuring the highest standards of animal care and our accreditation process does just that!" Aquariums and zoos can definitely lose their accreditation if they fail to remain up to standards. In that case, they'll have to go through a lengthy review process to prove that they're worthy of re-accreditation. There is a list of currently accredited zoos and aquariums, and you can also look for the AZA logo on an institution's website or at the institution itself.

    There are a lot of benefits that zoos and aquariums gain from being accredited. Here is a summary they provide of the benefits for aquariums. AZA provides professional development training and all sorts of seminars and conferences to promote better animal husbandry and innovation to help zoos and aquariums constantly improve their facilities. For example: "Animal husbandry practices ensure that the physiological, biological, psychological, and social needs of the animals cared for in AZA-accredited zoos and aquariums are addressed. Providing for good animal welfare encompasses both ethical and scientific responsibilities. AZA-accredited institutions have an ethical responsibility to ensure the well-being of the animals in their care. In addition, AZA-accredited institutions have a scientific responsibility to gain a greater understanding of the well-being of the animals in their care by advancing animal welfare science."

    There is also a lot of emphasis on field conservation, reintroduction programs (check that page to see examples of species that have been successfully reintroduced into the wild and essentially saved from extinction), sustainability, conservation initiatives (including ocean conservation and marine mammal conservation), and conservation research. AZA institutions are also allowed to participate in Species Survival Plans (SSPs), which are comprehensive and carefully designed breeding programs, each one focused on a particular endangered species "to ensure the sustainability of a healthy, genetically diverse, and demographically varied AZA population". This actually means cooperation between multiple different zoos or aquariums so that animals can be transfered between them to produce the most beneficial genetic pairings (this prevents a genetic bottleneck, which can be a huge problem with restricted populations and leads to a loss of genetic diversity and therefore a less healthy population or species with a higher incidence of detrimental genetic conditions and higher probability of going extinct).

    AZA also works in cooperation with IUCN (International Union for Conservation of Nature), which is another independent organization that assesses how threatened or endangered different species are, and works to find and provide environmental conservation solutions. The IUCN Red List is a really useful tool if you want to look up the conservation status of a particular species.

    I hope that wasn't too much of an info-dump, but that's just an introduction, really. I'll come back later and post more stuff on other related topics!

    Thank you so much Theobromine!
    I'm so excited to learn as much as possible from you! 😊
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  2. #62
    Senior Member Undisclosed Pod KayNS's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the info, Theobromine. I feel we're on the same page.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Undisclosed Pod KayNS's Avatar
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    P.S. I do NOT understand why Halifax, Nova Scotia doesn't have an aquarium... but that's a whole other rant, right AniaR?

  4. #64
    You're welcome, Kassandra and KayNS! I agree, I think we're all on the same side here. That's why I feel it's so important to share this information, because as mermaids, we ALL care very deeply about the state of the oceans and making sure that animals are safe and happy! It's just so important to know not to let our emotions get the better of us to the point where we can't make informed decisions. The more informed we are, the better we can help educate others, and the better everyone can make intelligent decisions that will truly benefit the oceans and the creatures that we love.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by KayNS View Post
    P.S. I do NOT understand why Halifax, Nova Scotia doesn't have an aquarium... but that's a whole other rant, right AniaR?
    I plan on building one when I'm rich lol

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  6. #66
    Senior Member Euro Pod Mermaid Crystal Shimmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theobromine View Post

    As to swimming in aquariums, there was actually a whole thread about that a little while back, and Mermaid Cora from Reef HQ Aquarium in Queensland actually posted a REALLY detailed and insightful comment about it. I'll see if I can find that thread and link it here. For those who don't know, Cora works full time as an aquarist there (we actually went to the same university!) but also performs there as a mermaid, so she has a really good viewpoint of both sides.
    Thanks! I'm not a lot online here, so I must have missed it. I want to be informed as much as I can before applying at the aquarium.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by AniaR View Post
    I plan on building one when I'm rich lol

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    LMAO it'll be mermaid accredited
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  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Theobromine View Post
    You're welcome, Kassandra and KayNS! I agree, I think we're all on the same side here. That's why I feel it's so important to share this information, because as mermaids, we ALL care very deeply about the state of the oceans and making sure that animals are safe and happy! It's just so important to know not to let our emotions get the better of us to the point where we can't make informed decisions. The more informed we are, the better we can help educate others, and the better everyone can make intelligent decisions that will truly benefit the oceans and the creatures that we love.

    I completely agree!

    Thanks a lot ❤
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  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Echidna View Post
    Nah, it's alright.

    I have seriously no idea if I post too much and people are sick of seeing my posts.

    It's a surprise if anything, because I was rather inactive the last months (I read very few threads and replied even less), and I certainly never made it to the most active posters list (which I often check to see who is active).
    I posted more the last days because it's the weekend.
    Under the week, I usually don't even read MN anymore because I'm so busy with other stuff.

    And like you, I try to be unbiased.
    I'll always speak up for someone who I think has made a good statement (or defend them if they're needlessly attacked) regardless of whether I like them or not.

    Admittedly I'm often too lazy to explain myself profusely, even when I know people might get the wrong impression.
    Especially if it's drama.
    If someone starts name-calling, I'm out (and likely to ignore them in the future).


    EDIT: Nevermind.

    I just found out this whole affair here wasn't about the topic, or what I said, or how I said it.
    There's a bunch of peeps in a drama thread I never read, who have been seething and raging about me for some time now.
    They've been conspiring and congratulating each other when they managed to cause drama around me.

    LOL. Kindergarden much?
    I was half expecting them to start discussing their nose-pickings next.

    Kassandra, I'm sorry this carp spread to your thread.
    I had no idea this was going on- at least it shows me the people I have on my ignorelist are there for very good reasons.

    I hope it didn't affect your experience on the site negatively.


    Sorry for the double post but this is for the edited part:



    Don't worry!

    It's not about the thread it belongs to the whole community so that everyone has the chance to learn what I was lucky enough to learn thanks to who contributed to it.



    I just felt bad for what happened because as I said I don't think people love to argue and the moments when it happens especially if it's about yourself.
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  10. #70
    mermaid lexi has her own tank ;D she uses that as her aquarium. no fish in it.
    The SeaGlass Siren

  11. #71
    EDIT: Nevermind.

    I just found out this whole affair here wasn't about the topic, or what I said, or how I said it.
    There's a bunch of peeps in a drama thread I never read, who have been seething and raging about me for some time now.
    They've been conspiring and congratulating each other when they managed to cause drama around me.

    LOL. Kindergarden much?
    I was half expecting them to start discussing their nose-pickings next.

    Kassandra, I'm sorry this carp spread to your thread.
    I had no idea this was going on- at least it shows me the people I have on my ignorelist are there for very good reasons.

    I hope it didn't affect your experience on the site negatively.
    Honestly Echidna? Yes, a good deal of what was said to you on this thread was about this thread. You had some opinions and statements that could be detrimental to a person's understanding of aquariums and how they are run and it was deemed necessary by other members to call you on it. Such statements as -
    I doubt the value of people gawking at animals through a glasspane (as opposed to on a TV screen ) is that much more valuable than the ethical and natural treatment of a creature.
    Though bland in appearance because of your wording, you've made aquariums out to be unethical centers used purely for people to gawk at ill tended animals. As others have stated, this is incorrect.

    It's true that humans have made life in the wild very difficult and exterminate entire species every single day.

    That's not an argument for catching wild animals and keeping them for amusement, unless it is indeed done for conversation.
    I'm not getting into the trick-discussion here, especially not with someone who is employing SeaPrison lingo and SeaPrison propaganda
    "it's not a trick, it's a behaviour"- you can call it a banana, doesn't make it a banana dudes.

    "Animals live far longer in capivity than in the wild"- often a lie that has been exposed a long while ago
    "They don't do the behaviour because they have to, but because they really want to!!"
    Life in the wild today is hard for animals, and it's humanity's fault entirely.
    One should make up for that with efforts to make life in the wild easier again, not imprison what remains and call it a day.
    Would this not be all the MORE reason to keep some animals in captivity? If we humans truly are 'exterminating entire species every single day', and it's plain that we won't be able to fix the planet overnight, should we not be caring for some small bastions of these animal populations?
    Also, your wording in most of your posts (both on this thread and not) when discussing something you disagree over can come across as exceedingly condescending. Whether this is on purpose or not, people are right to get tired of it.


    As for the other parts of your edited post, please just stop it. Sure, people might be upset at you and that's their right. To call them kindergartners who pick their noses is both rude and not in any way helpful to your image. Perhaps engaging them in a more mature manner would change the way that they view you. As for conspiring against you, seriously? Where did you even get that from? People are airing their grievances about you. This doesn't make them conspirators. It simply makes them people who have reached their limit with something, in this case you.

    Honestly, I'm really sorry that this much drama has cropped up, mostly because it has made finding relevant topics more difficult. However, I do think that in the majority of the cases listed, you were in the wrong. Does this make me a nose-picking kindergarten conspirator? Fine if that's so. I hope you possibly take something from all of this and know that most of us don't mean you harm. We're just tired.
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  12. #72

  13. #73
    yes!!!!!
    also I would like to specifically point out the "Animals live longer in captivity" statement. I in my personal experience have heard of only one species that doesn't live longer in captivity. I'm not speaking for every animal because i can assure you I know little to nothing about aquatic animals and pachyderms. But saying that it's false is a flat out lie.
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  14. #74
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    Sorry mods but I had to reply...

    why not just make a separate post instead of sneakily going back and editing (something people might not see) your original?

    I just found out this whole affair here wasn't about the topic, or what I said, or how I said it.
    There's a bunch of peeps in a drama thread I never read, who have been seething and raging about me for some time now.
    They've been conspiring and congratulating each other when they managed to cause drama around me.
    No actually, the drama thread came after. I TOLD you there were some comments directed at you in other threads in terms of how you word things and come across. When I said:
    But a lot of people do find you rude, there have been passive aggressive posts about it in other threads if you didn't see :/
    I just feel like you were going to get a post like this from SOMEONE for a while now, because a lot of people have been brewing
    It's not conspiracy. I told you, the way you come off in posts is wearing people out. So it boiled over here, and it boiled over there. The affair was Exactly about the topic, and exactly about how you said your points. Every reply here AND there is about that very thing. Literally. The way you come across. Which I think we talked about enough. Do you really think it's just a whole bunch of mermaids with nothing better to do than pretend as part of some conspiracy that you come across poorly on the internet? I mean... really?

    Girl, you're swimming right down the river I went, and I hate to tell you there's a big water fall crash coming soon if you don't turn tail and swim up stream! Save yourself the epic crash because I can tell you; it takes a lot to come back from.

  15. #75
    Ok I'm trying to get back on topic!





    Someone shared this on my Facebook it's and article from last year about India's prohibition to keep in captivity any kind of cetacean for public shows.





    Here it is the link:





    http://peacefulwarriors.net/india-de...hows-banned-2/








    Now in my opinion this was a great decision as this can prevent to have the same situation of SeaWorld and if I understood well this prohibition doesn't touch research and rehabilitation programs, even though it doesn't let anyone see the exemplars in the tanks not even during their natural behaviors.





    In this way also aquariums lose their right to self-sponsoring themselves without guests (I mean aquariums like Clearwaters that became famous for its rehabilitation program for dolphins thanks to loads of guests coming from all over only to see Winter and Hope).





    So what do you think about it?



    In my opinion this can be a good alternative to prevent the abuse of cetacean captivity with the excuse of the research so that only interested people can do research, but at the same time I feel this can give a stop to the research because only private corporations will detain the main part of the research's result and I don't know if this can be good for the international community and the research in general.
    Last edited by Mermaid Kassandra; 10-07-2015 at 01:58 AM.
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  16. #76
    I thought this might be relevant to the post but here is a pretty good alternative people are working on.
    virtual reality aquariums
    full page of info is here: http://www.ceta-journal.net/stop-kee...is-the-future/
    The SeaGlass Siren

  17. #77
    Virtual cetaceans would be awesome! Even better if they can work in some nice 3D tech. Ooh, and make it a touch screen so you can 'pet' them! And why limit it to dolphins? I want to get up close with some life sized virtual whales! And while I'm dreaming, how about throwing in some marine reptiles, too? I know there are some great models of those already.

    I'm picturing something like Endless Ocean, but on at least three walls or one big concave one, maybe ceiling as well. Then you could watch them swim around you while you play with settings to choose what you want to be in the aquarium at any given moment.

    Fancy a cup of mermaid tea?


  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Ciriun View Post
    Virtual cetaceans would be awesome! Even better if they can work in some nice 3D tech. Ooh, and make it a touch screen so you can 'pet' them! And why limit it to dolphins? I want to get up close with some life sized virtual whales! And while I'm dreaming, how about throwing in some marine reptiles, too? I know there are some great models of those already.

    I'm picturing something like Endless Ocean, but on at least three walls or one big concave one, maybe ceiling as well. Then you could watch them swim around you while you play with settings to choose what you want to be in the aquarium at any given moment.

    Holy fins why didn't we think about that?
    I think this is the most wonderful idea ever! *.*

    I want an aquarium like that now!!! 😆
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  19. #79
    So...I think a high-tech virtual aquarium does sound like a very cool idea in some ways, but in the interest of maintaining this as an educational thread, I'd like to point out that a virtual aquarium would never be able to actually replace a zoological collection of living creatures. There are many problems a virtual aquarium would not be able to solve:

    1. Research. The research that is conducted in an aquarium facility provides immeasurably valuable information about physiology, behavior, and life histories, and much of this information is useful if not downright necessary for effective conservation strategies. For example, how can we protect a certain species unless we know its food preferences, habitat preferences, behavior, and reproduction strategies? Many marine species are actually far too difficult to thoroughly study in the wild, due to scarcity, restricted range, or remote (or deep) habitats that are difficult to even reach. And building off of this point, how could you even program realistic virtual animals unless you have done enough research to become VERY familiar with all of their characteristics? You can't.

    2. Captive breeding. Obviously, you can't breed virtual animals. As I've mentioned before, aquariums participate in Species Survival Plans that help ensure the continued survival of a LOT of different species. No aquariums, no SSPs. And also no safe haven for animals that would be facing massive threats from habitat destruction, pollution, overfishing, poaching, rising sea temperatures and ocean acidification, etc. And while of course it's still critically important to do everything we can to reduce these threats, there is just no overnight solution.

    3. Rescue and rehabilitation. Many aquariums are able to take in rescued marine wildlife and rehabilitate it through the expert care of highly trained animal care and veterinary staff. If we were to eliminate these facilities, injured wildlife that people find would have no place to go and nobody who would be properly trained and experienced in caring for them and treating their medical issues. Without care and medical attention, most injured wildlife would sadly die.

    I'm not trying to shoot anyone down, I'm just trying to make sure everyone is thinking critically about these issues and considering ALL the implications of certain actions. I do think a virtual aquarium could be a really cool educational tool (especially as technology would be a lot more portable and less stress-prone than live animals) but it could never be used in place of an actual aquarium.

  20. #80
    As for the article Kassandra posted about India banning dolphin captivity and dolphin shows, I'm a little bit divided in my opinion on this one, so let me explain. I do think that recognizing dolphins as highly intelligent beings capable of complex thought and emotion IS a good precedent to set. I definitely don't support keeping them in captivity for the sole purpose of entertainment. However...I do also worry about there being a precedent set for politicians and lawmakers deciding that they know better about animal behavior/physiology than the actual experts who devote their lives to studying and caring for them and working on conservation efforts. It's a slippery slope. We already have enough politicians who try to legislate on scientific issues while ignoring ALL the actual evidence presented by scientists...

    So consider this case study of a dolphin that was found stranded in the UK with a severe sunburn. The injury would have been easy for a veterinarian to treat but would have led to a painful and life-threatening infection if left untreated. Due to a lack of adequate facilities, there was nowhere for the dolphin to actually be taken for treatment, so it was instead euthanized by wildlife officials. Now, I will say that they don't link to an actual news article about this particular dolphin so I haven't yet been able to find the source and determine how true it is (though from my reading it is true that laws were passed in 1985 that eventually led to dolphin facilities going out of business and there are currently no captive dolphins in the UK). HOWEVER, even if we were to assume this story as fictional, it is not the slightest bit far-fetched and still provides a clear example of what WILL happen if well-meaning but ill-informed continue to pressure governments into outlawing cetacean captivity. The closing line of the article I linked to is "Without the proper facilities and their expertly trained staff, animals are left to suffer and die." I want everybody here to understand the truth of that.

    Another issue with attempting to force all aquariums and marine parks to immediately free all of their cetaceans is that it is NOT that simple. You can't just dump an animal out in the wild and expect it to not be intensely stressed out, or to immediately know how to survive and hunt and avoid predation and other dangers. Many of the cetaceans currently in captivity were actually BORN in captivity (remember what I said about SSPs), and were never taken from the wild in the first place. Learning how to survive in the wild isn't completely instinctual. Much of it has to be learned from parents or other adults (there are many many examples of all different species having to be extensively conditioned and prepared for the transition from captivity to wild). Freeing a large wild animal is a long, involved, expensive process, and even when these measures are taken, there is still no guarantee of the transition being successful. I'm sure everyone here is familiar with at least the name of Keiko, the orca that got so famous for starring in Free Willy? After the success of those movies, people all over the world started petitioning to actually free Keiko, assuming the real life story would have a happy ending like the movies did. Many people don't realize that Keiko never properly re-integrated with the wild orcas, instead seeking out human contact, and he eventually died about 18 months after his release. It's a very sad story and it's definitely not how any of us want to see these stories play out.

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