A Mature, Drama-free Discussion on Intellectual Property

[malinghi]

I thought it would be interesting to have a mature discussion on the idea of intellectual property. You're welcome to your opinions, but don't turn this into a fight or I'll lock this thread a heartbeat.


I'll begin with a quote:

"Good artists copy. Great artists steal." -Pablo Picasso (attributed?)

The meaning of the quote is somewhat unclear, and pretty controversial. It might simply be a weird, unapologetic defense of stealing. Or maybe it's an edgy way of saying that being totally original is impossible since we are influenced by everything we see. What do you think it means? Do you agree?


The second thing I'd like to pose to everybody is whether we are all being hypocritical by selectively condemning some acts of theft, and ignoring others. I do believe that some of the accusations of theft made about Mr. Ducharme are valid. But I haven't seen much acknowledgement of the fact that Eric's work has almost certainly been reverse engineered and adopted by others in the community. On the other hand, the very first tails Mr. Ducharme ever sold were fabric, and he was accused of stealing the idea from FoxMoon Productions. This is a pretty weird accusation, since nowadays the design of a basic fabric tail is considered so simple that the idea that someone could feel possessive of it seems hard to believe. Additionally, Make Van Daal purchased one of the tails used in the 13th Year and used reproductions of its fin in tails that he sold. Is this wrong? Is everyone guilty? Is no one?



So what is theft?
How does one "own" something intangible such as an idea or a method?
And do we condemn acts of theft inconstantly?

Discuss.

[Gem Stone]

Hard to say exactly. I agree that it's possible two people could look at the same fish and decide to base a tail after that fish (example). I think the 'theft' comes where one person puts an idea out there and someone else makes a profit off it. I don't truely see how to even prove that someone stole something off the Internet because they could just say they hadn't seen it before and then it's a he said she said situation. It may be a little harsh, but the way I see it is don't trust that random people whom you've never met are going to respect your ideas as yours if it's on a site where anyone can see it.

Im going to use myself as an example.
I drew my dream tail based off of a mermaid figurine I was given by a friend. After deciding I wanted this as my dream tail, I found another mers photo of her dream tail and while they are not EXACT, they are Definately similar. I have no clue where she got her inspiration, but if anyone compared the photos they could say I 'stole' her idea.

Its a thin line with lots of grey areas, but some people will go with the crowd or agree with their freinds without truely understanding both sides of the argument.

[Mermaid Star]

I think that it really isn't about whether you copy someones work. In several instances in my thread, I have listed that I learned something from someone or got my idea for something from someone else. I think as long as you credit someone, it is all good. We are all influenced by what we see and do so it is going to happen. But to claim that you came up with the design your self when you have out and out copied it, is what gets people,my self included, up in arms.

[Gem Stone]

i agree with star

[AniaR]

thats what I said too... quite possibly in a more dramatic way... or... very probably... *takes fins out of mouth* sorry Malghni <3

[Artisankatie]

An example that I think of a lot is people saying they started the mermaiding craze. While it's true that a lot of people might have seen someone else doing it and thought 'I want to do that!', I think most of us had the idea ourselves, and then found Mer Yuku or Network, which then helped them achieve their dream.
I think copyright (at least in Australia) doesn't cover things that anyone can just think of themselves, and it doesn't cover modifying things that already exist, so I'm not sure of specific designs... people might be unconsciously inspired by the same source. If your design is inspired by something but you've added or removed specific elements to customise it, you still might not be able to get copyright on it but you'll have more street cred as coming up with that design, at least if you showed people before someone else did it.

[merpirate]

I'm going to attempt to weigh into this if I go into drama zone I am sorry I am going to try to not. Like has been said by a few people here I don't think it is about the theft of the design, I think it is about claiming the idea as original when a earlier version can be seen. For me there is even a great non mer example go to imdb and look at these two films, Repo! the Genetic Opera and Repomen. Now the creators of Repo! made the first version of the "Idea" with a ten minute opera called the nercomerchant's debt.

Later this became a stage show and then the movie (This is the quick version of the history) While they were trying to get the film made one company offered to do the moive but only if they dropped the musical aspects. This same movie company then made Repomen and claimed the idea came from a book which came out later. I love Repo! and I looked into this deeply, to me the theft of the idea without trying to at least admit who it came from is low and cheap for the maker of Repomen to do, especially when you see how close the ideas are really.

A lot of mermaids here have gotten ideas from other places, but most of them admit where they got it. That to me is ok because they are not claiming it to be a new idea of their own. (Read Star's tailmaking thread and watch the videos and she doesn't deny she is using ideas form others she even names a few of them.) Others when shown that the idea might have come from somewhere else and is not something they thought of, they deny it try and change the story and even outright lie. That is dishonorable.

Since people have talked about copying other ideas like they had the idea first I would like to point out a few things that have been around for a while, Shell tops = Hawaiian girl outfits have had them for a while, Scale tops = Scale chain mail for women warriors, saw a rusted one at the first ren faire I was ever at at age 9 (I am at the time of this turning 34 in a few weeks)

[OrcaMatt]

"Great artists ship" --Steve Jobs

[malinghi]

Was it a mistake to make this thread? I can't tell if this is a drama thread or not. I think it might be.

[OrcaMatt]

Was it a mistake to make this thread? I can't tell if this is a drama thread or not. I think it might be.

Only if the subject doesn't veer back to a general discussion and not a specific one. I had a long post going about this stuff in general that I'm spinning off into a new thread because the intention is to start a related but different discussion.

[ShyMer]

I think some of us are just having trouble being objective. I think we did get some quality discussion though.

[Mermaid Photine]

I get that everyone is working with the same inspirations (Fish and aquatic mammals, mostly. Plus whatever mythology and stories we can find. All of these things are eventually going to overlap.) I agree with the idea that there isn't exactly anything that can be original, but I think that the point is to either provide a new take on whatever already exists or make a tribute to what already does. For example, a tail made to look like Aquamarine's as a tribute because her tail was ah-mazing, or a new take on a lionfish where it is perhaps rainbow coloured instead of lionfish coloured and also mixed with a klingon. (Obviously that is just an example out of the top of my head. Feel free to use it. I’d love to see the results. xD)

If you have an idea that is similar to something out there at the moment, I'd say it would be most courteous and strategic to sit on it for a while for the idea to not be the new thing. Example: Twilight was recently obscenely popular. Someone else might have had a great, wonderful, original vampire idea, but at that time, to use the idea would make the person a bandwagoner. Once the fad has died down would be a good time to use their idea while still retaining the image (I say image because this person couldn’t have invented vampires) of originality. If it were something else besides Twilight, using an idea at the same time could be seen as malicious. Either way, it's not good for business (if you have a business) or image (whether you do or don't have a business.)

I think that it is best to say where you got your inspiration from. People like knowing what artists are thinking of when they create their works. Up to a point, there is nothing wrong with being inspired by something and it doesn’t make the artist’s idea any less original because every idea had to some from somewhere. Perhaps it is the line between a new take and a tribute?

As for how someone can “own” an idea, I’m not entirely sure they can. To stay out of the drama here, I’m going to talk in terms of Neopets, because I used to love that game. I had always wanted to enter into their drawing contests and make pretty pictures of the creatures and code them into the customizable parts of the game, but I don’t think I ever actually did because I was afraid someone was going to take my idea and use it. I guess the best idea for working with the invention of the internet where absolutely anyone can use the idea I had about a Neopet is that I could either talk about it to others in a public place and run the risk that it be taken, or I could work on it, perhaps bounce ideas off a few people I know and show it once I was finished. Neither option is ideal because I quite like bouncing ideas off a large group of people, it’s most fascinating, but I am rather possessive of things.

I will say that all of the talk here about theft of ideas makes me feel more cautious and paranoid than usual, and that stinks.

We seem to condemn idea theft the most when it is most loudly talked about. I think that this is to be expected, as I am pretty sure that no one here is telepathic. The only solution I can think is to have some sort of method to dealing with the theft. Perhaps, first quietly the person whose idea it was –no one else, though- contact (key word being quietly. I think most are sick of the recent influx of drama.) the person who may or may not have stolen the idea and take it from there.

I’m sorry that I cannot offer any solution other than personal moderation. (and that I use so many parentheses.)

[Kanti]

By calling Raina's post "nonsense" you're instigating.
By saying you're the only one who answered the question you're instigating.
There were tons of answers, many of them were reasonable.

The question was:
So what is theft?
How does one "own" something intangible such as an idea or a method?
And do we condemn acts of theft inconstantly?

Discuss.


No offense, Matty, but your whole post was just geared towards claiming Eric
was a great person and would never copy anything just as much as Raina's
post was geared towards saying Eric is a bad person and would copy anything.
You guys dislike each other so much yet you say almost the exact same things
with the words opposite each other xD

This forum was supposed to analyse the idea of "stealing" something.
What is theft? Can a sketch REALLY be stolen? Though it's created by someone
originally, is it really their property?
Most of the people who responded did answer the question very well, without
being dramatic.

[Mermaid Photine]

Oi! Guys. This is a drama free post. To be kept drama free.

Answering Kanti,

For a sketch, I'd need a scenario for a bit better of an idea, but I think that if the sketch had some distinct lines, features, or colours (if there are any. I don't think that one can steal a colour scheme alone, though.) then those should not be used if the person is aware of them. I think that the question of being aware of it already existing is also part of the problem. But this cannot ever be proven or disproven, so that's a difficulty.

[Kanti]

I did get very aggressive in my previous posts, I was a bit on the offense, I guess because
I was so sure that this was an idea of stealing.

I did get a bit attached to the matter since it was an example where someone was posting their
design for a tail and then a handful of days later it appeared on the mertailor's page, to be SOLD.
I suppose that's where I sort of got pretty steamed. If it was just a copy of her tail for personal use,
ok, it'd be an honest mistake or maybe even the extreme form of flattery lol.

Either way, the bottom line to that question is, I believe stealing of someone's ideas is wrong, but we can't
really prevent it. You need to know that once you post something on the internet, it's essentially free game,
unless I guess it's properly copyrighted. People need to be careful with their ideas. It'd be nice if you
could depend on others not to steal/copy, but in the end, you can only blame yourself for not taking the
proper percautions.

@Pandorah: Yea, a sketch is something random. It's hard to prove if it was your idea or even if it was the
"final" version, I suppose. Your examples were very good. I could sketch a lionfish tail and it would be
'meh', not very original. But maybe if it was some crazy pink/purple lionfish tail it'd be a little more towards
the original part of the scale.

[Mermaid Photine]

Would it be benificial to the community for there to exist a guide on intellectual property and protecting one's ideals and images? My only concern is that it might make some people overly cautious or perhaps occasionally cry wolf. I'd love to have a resource on how I can protect my ideas should I choose to post them. (Oh, but I procrastinate so much...)

I suppose there is a reason why people call the internet the Wild West...

[Kanti]

Yea, it's really tough. Cause you can always be innocent but there can be people who want to take
advantage of things. In a community such as this, you especially want things to be safe, it;s nice to
be able to show everyone your design so you can get feedback.

Honestly, the best idea would be to make a Deviantart account and post it on there, have the image
watermarked, and then post it here. You'd have to make it a very detailed and specific picture, but I mean,
you can still get the people who did what Eric did. They can claim inspiration from something else, and in
a court, they MAY win. It's really difficult to pin down what's what, and fair is only what the majority claims.

Honestly, mermaiding is supposed to be about fun, isn't it?
I may be offended if someone stole my idea, but I'm still allowed to make my tail, right? So long as it's
everything I ever wanted, why would I complain much?

[Mermaid Photine]

Fun is most certainly the goal, but sometimes a few people will lose sight of it. I think that if there are a few measures and discussions (like this thread, if we can keep it from being locked.) that can keep the mermaiding community fun, then we ought to do it.

[Kanti]

I think in the end everyone wants to be recognized for their work. Isn't that why
we're on a forum? I mean, all the information is visible to someone who makes
an account, so if information was all anyone needed they could just look around
and grab what they need.

I think the community is not only a center for people who like the same thing
(mermaids) but it's also an area for getting the extra confidence and push
from friends online that you wouldn't get from your average group of friends.
Honestly, I feel weird sometimes asking people about mermaid tails. I don't
know why, either. I guess it sounds childish to want to make a mermaid tail,
so I don't often talk to people about it. Here I feel like I can without being
made fun of to a degree.

I guess to an extent it could be to gain praise, too. Sometimes you get the
people who stick through the forums, talk, make friends, help people with
problems or concerns, etc. and then you get the people who appear every
now and then to show off their tails or mention they've been featured in a
magazine or something xD

[OrcaMatt]

I thought somebody (Spindrift?) did an IP overview, for things like what is and isn't copyrightable, copyright vs. trademark vs. patent, things like that. Every time we rekindle the Intellectual Property debate, usually after something happened, it always feels like it's the first time we've broached the subject where in actuality, this is really the third or fourth time. This isn't a new problem, or even the first incident! This too shall pass.

I spun off the reply I was writing here into a separate thread when it turned into more of a pragmatic discussion of what all this means on a day-to-day sort of basis rather than the larger issue in general. Most of those points should be familiar to anybody who read basically the same post on mer.yuku almost a year ago