Fish Butts having a sale...

[Morticia Mermaid]

I’m sure a lot, if not all, of you have noticed by now that Fish Butts is having a sale. I think that's cool and I know she's going through a lot, and has had a really bad year, but as a tailmaker I'd like to know how she can afford this. Since it costs a minimum of $906.54 in materials alone.





Now, I’ve done my fair share of price checking, both at retail and whole sale. I’m guessing it takes about 3-4 gallons of Silicone for a full silicone tail (if someone knows more exactly how much it takes, please feel free to share). The retail prices I found for Dragon Skin® High Performance Silicone Rubber is $183.72 per gallon, not including shipping. So if a tail takes 4 gallons, that alone is $734.88 before shipping. I calculated shipping to my own address, and it came out to $96.48. That adds up to $831.36 just for the silicone. A Finis Wave monofin, directly from the Finis website is $59.99 before shipping, with shipping (to my address) ranging from $8.25 (smart post) to $58.41 (overnight shipping).
Knowing the cost or materials at retail, the wholesale price dropping maybe $100-200 max from the total, it brings to question how the company is able to afford it. I know there has been talk that they make their tails at nearly cost of materials, but they would have to be paying for 1/3 the cost of the materials just to make the tail.

I know a lot of you are major fans of the company, so please don’t take this as me attacking them. But, the price and the cost of materials just doesn’t add up, and knowing just how much it costs for the materials brings some very serious questions to mind.


You can see this page directly at Smooth-on. You can see, each gallon is the same price.


My calculated shipping costs for 4 gallons of silicone.


Finis Wave- $59.99


Finis Rapid- $89.99

Fish Butts has also said that they are offering for people to choose the Competitor monofin as an option for an additional $200, $100 for having to remake the mold and another $100 for the fin. Here is what I found.


The Finis Competitor is $319.99 before shipping.

I'm not sure if anyone else can see what I see. But, being a tailmaker myself (knowing a lot about pricing, where to get deals, wholesale pricing vs. retail pricing for materials) I just don't see how it is possible to offer a full silicone tail for $500 when the cost of materials alone is a minimum of $200 more than the sale price.

[AniaR]

First off, I think you worded this pretty darn respectfully and I think it's a valid set of points. I was working yesterday and when I came home I actually had a bunch of messages on my personal account and my mermaid account about it. People were asking me if it was a legit thing, or if the artist was a scam (honestly, can't people simply google the tail making company to see they actually sell tails? lol) I had enough messages that it made me feel a bit worried so I messaged Stevi about it specifically. From my own personal experiences I know how expensive this material can be. I didn't want there to be a big drama blowup for her, knowing what she's been going through, and I was nervous that if someone posted about it on the network that's what would happen. So can I at least say I'm very thankful you worded everything so objectively etc.

When I asked Stevi she said she does the silicone pretty thin to save on it, and I *think* (correct me if I'm wrong) she said somewhere that she gets the silicone on wholesale. I'm kinda ignorant to the whole tail making thing. People message me about this kinda stuff and I really don't know, I just go by what other tail makers tell me and what I can find online. I do see your point though about the monofins. I have a competitor monofin and they're super expensive. I think she should charge more personally for the more expensive monofin instead of just 200$. Material costs aside, I think she should charge more even if it is a sale because of how much time and effort they take to make.

[Mermaid Melusinah]

Material costs aside, I think she should charge more even if it is a sale because of how much time and effort they take to make.

From what I have heard, she says that she charges at cost simply because its some thing she enjoys doing. And while that's great and i can respect that. The costs and the products dont add up.... Which has (for a LONG while) raised the question in my head, is she in fact USING the materials she claims.

Because if she is... at the sale she is running, she would be paying a large portion of the cost of materials from her OWN pocket alone for EACH tail... that just makes no sense at all....

While I might not be a tail maker, I AM a business woman and understand cost of goods and things of that sort...

And as lexia posted so respectfully, my post is meaning to be the same. I have no intention of drama. I just want to see people done right by the people they trust to make their tails. I know if I am putting down money for anything (doesnt matter the amount or product) I want to know that what im being told im buying IS in fact what i am buying....

[Morticia Mermaid]

Correct me if I'm wrong Raina, but didn't Raven cast your tail thin as well? If I remember when we talked about it correctly, when I was getting dimensions for the bag I'm making you, you said even though it was cast thin, she still paid over $1,000 just in materials (again, correct me if I'm wrong).

Plus, even at wholesale cost, the minimum you could pay for silicone is about $100 a gallon. So if a tail takes 4 gallons, at $100/gallon plus the $96 for shipping of the silicone, (and not taking into account the monofin and its own shipping) that alone is almost $500.

[AniaR]

Yeah. I can't really argue with that. My tail uses less silicone than any tail I've seen to date. So I guess that would be like my tail + neoprene so the cost would be well over 1000$ I think closer to 2000$ not including paint, time, and labor etc. (Raven's tails use more silicone than mine, hence the 3k price tag). I can't really add anything else, I totally see your point. Even on sale 500$ doesn't cover the cost of materials.

edit: (I posted while you were making your post! So I missed it)

And as lexia posted so respectfully, my post is meaning to be the same. I have no intention of drama. I just want to see people done right by the people they trust to make their tails. I know if I am putting down money for anything (doesnt matter the amount or product) I want to know that what im being told im buying IS in fact what i am buying....

That's how I've always felt about certain other tail makers I get in drama over. When it comes down to it, people wanna make sure they know exactly what they're buying. So I think it's all a fair question, and even though it's taboo in the community to directly call it out I appreciate that everyone is doing their best to be respectful!

[Morticia Mermaid]

"IF" she were to be using something other than advertised, that is potentially a MAJOR lawsuit. One I'm sure everyone whose ever bought a tail from the company would want to get in on. And that's only one, there are other potential lawsuits that could happen should someone get sick from certain materials.

Last thing I want to see is another tailmaker end up driving themselves out of business, even if it is unintentionally. Every tailmaker has their own little quirk to their tails. But, I fully believe that, when it comes to the materials used in those tails, ALL tailmakers should be honest about the materials they use to make them.

Disclaimer: Far anyone who reads this- Yes, I am a tailmaker myself. No, I did not post this thread to spite Fish Butts. I personally felt, as a consumer, that things were not adding up and those things needed to be brought to attention. I am not attacking the company in any way, just pointing out facts and providing where I found the information to base those facts. If anyone feels that I have missed something, please feel free to share.

[Sammi Ray]

All materials and how they are used should be known, and if casting thin that should be mentioned too. Does she cast thin on the 2000 just out of curiosity? And just to clarify this comment is not in any mean shape or form slating fishbutts. I just think all tail makers should put more about the products and what they and how they are used so you know what you are buying!

[Spindrift]

Are you sure that the silicone she uses is Dragonskin? There are other skin-safe silicone brands, like the one used by latexmans, which is much cheaper.

[Morticia Mermaid]

You make good points Iona. But, I ask this- If their "full silicone tails" have a neoprene lining (just like the partial tails), Then isn't it just a ticker version of the partial tail and not really a "full silicone tail"? And even if they use only 2 gallons of the dragon skin silicone, that is almost $500 just in silicone.

[Winged Mermaid]

You make good points Iona. But, I ask this- If their "full silicone tails" have a neoprene lining (just like the partial tails), Then isn't it just a ticker version of the partial tail and not really a "full silicone tail"? And even if they use only 2 gallons of the dragon skin silicone, that is almost $500 just in silicone.

*shrug* I think she should look into changing her names and clarifying a bit for sure. Maybe "imprinted silicone" and "molded silicone" or some such to cut down on the confusion. But she has specified that the "full silicone" ones do have a neoprene lining. 2 gallons would be maximum for a full silicone (Jesse probably uses that amount in his tails). She probably uses a LOT less for one that has a neoprene lining. But really no one can give you solid answers but Stevi.

I'm just saying that she has a great track record and trust with the community about all aspects of her tail making, and that she does have a good reason behind selling the tails at-cost for a promotion as well as other personal reasons. One thing that I forgot to mention was that MerBella Studios sells essentially the same base product (molded silicone on neoprene) for $1,000. And those are with custom paint jobs (which can be costly), not just solid color tinted silicone like Stevi is selling. We all know that tails will run retail much more than they cost to make, and I believe Raven does charge for her time (as well she should, her work is amazing). So that leads me to believe you can make one of these for $500 or under. That also means that she has competition with Merbella Studios for these styles of tails, and on more than just cost. So there's yet another reason for a sale like this.

I personally trust her, but then again I'm not actually ordering form her. Just my thoughts for you guys!

[Sammi Ray]

All tails she sells are dragon skin. Maybe it is just cheaper whole sale

[Winged Mermaid]

You bring up valid points! It's good to question, and I than you for doing so respectfully

I know that her and others have said, number wise, she makes them nearly at cost. "For pennies" is what another tailmaker stated, as they did not understand and were upset that she would sell them at such a low cost. As Mermaid Melusinah said, she has stated that she does this becuase she loves making the tails and bringing happiness to mers. She has always been transparent in her use of materials, and has always stood behind her products. I've seen full replacement tails go out several times becuase there was a flaw that caused damage to the customer's tail. I really think she has earned some trust in the community, thus why she has become the most popular tail maker for mid priced tails.

I can tell you that 3-4 gallons is WAY too much. Talking to a respectable tail maker who knows their stuff, I was talking about how thick Mike Van Daal's tails are and how heavy. (Although that is an advantage for him with genuinely seamless tails, very realistic, and perfect for performing in water.) They are very thick and weigh 60lbs or more (double checked this in reviews and discussions on the review sections here)- to the point that people say they can not move the fluke at all on their own on dry land- and the tail maker said that they "probably use almost 3 gallons of silicone". So if a tail THAT thick and heavy and uses that little, then I would think maybe 2 gallons at most if it was full silicone. But she uses a neoprene lining in the body (but I'm not sure about the fluke), so she probably casts it much thinner. I mean, you can see from Raven's tails how much you can shave off ($2,000) just by doing that.

I also know that she gets whole rolls of neoprene at wholesale. I would suspect she gets the silicone wholesale as well. Don't forget that SwimOutlet sells fins discounted, and there's also the "mermaid20" discount when buying from Finis.

I think the sale would put the tails nearly if not completely at-cost. However, have you noticed that no one has gotten a full silicone tail from her as of yet? She wants to get these tails OUT to people and into the world. That is the best way to generate more customers, and she knows it! Since she has the ability to do that at this point , it's a very smart thing to do.

Plus, she has been going through a extremely hard time lately, and I think her getting back into tail making is something that she knows will help her. At this point I sincerely think it's her wanting to help herself, and help others, to get herself through this. Any tailmaker will tell you how happy it is to make a tail, but even more so when they see the happy faces and hear the happy/grateful words from a satisfied customer. And as a bonus help her business in the future. So that's my thoughts on that

[AniaR]

I think valid points all across. It'll be exciting to see what sort of tails come from all of this. Also Iona, your signature is hypnotic

[Winged Mermaid]

(Aw thanks Raina!)

I think they make their imprinted ones close to at-cost. I think the silicone ones she had a higher price. Perhaps she was trying not to undercut the market? Or actually make decent money off of it since making a molded tail is a lot more work than the imprinted ones are. Best I can figure. After all, as far as I know she hasn't actually sold any of the "full silicone" type thus far.

[Morticia Mermaid]

I've got nothing against her, or anyone who works with her. But there are a lot of unanswered questions. There's no detailed description of what is entailed in either tail. The only description I have found on either tail is in her FAQ's. Which states that the only differences are that one has a full silicone fluke with molded scales instead of imprinted.

[Winged Mermaid]

I get what you're saying. *nods* I agree, but unless Stevi herself gives us answers we don't have any way of knowing. All we can do is speculate, and that does not seem to be helping thus far :P In the end, if people order, they order. That will be up to them if they trust her as a tailmaker for her to deliver what she promises. The outcome of if it - if it's her undoing or something that lifts her buisness up- will be solely up to her. Although I think it would be smart of her to set a limit in orders she's willing to take for this sale. Only time will tell I suppose.

[Morticia Mermaid]

I think a limit would be a good idea. I know how much stress it can cause to be overwhelmed with work, I get it on a daily basis where I work full-time. My suggestion would be to finish ALL the orders she has now before launching another sale,every tail completed and shipped. But, that's just an idea on something that would help ease stress and feeling overwhelmed

[Mermaid Azira]

I have nothing against fishbutts. I am even planning on getting a tail from them.

On seagirls626's tail has side seams. You can see her tail in the "Show us Your Tails Thread." Didn't Stevi say her partial tails don't have seams?

[Nyxie]

i understand why some might be skeptical, however, it might just be what it is on the cover in my opinion. As a daycare provider for military in an overseas location, i face the same dilemma. i am considerably cheaper than others and most person's think there's something else going on or that it doesn't add up as they're used to and think i should charge more. because of certain rules in place, i do come out of pocket for daycare...i have to cover automobile insurance, child-care insurance, food (shopping on the economy is super hard since only certain USDA foods are approved and most of it has to be american made so what i would pay for minute maid in the US, i pay triple for in here)not to mention certain equipments you have to get that arent provided (like the quad stroller i had to ''invest '' in last month. Add this to the fact that there are only 3 providers serving the base (each only allowed 6 children total) and the wait list for the CDC is outrageous, i actually get encouraged by parents to charge more. the fact is, i do it because it will benefit me. it benefits my own children to have interaction , broadens the market for potential customers considerably and i just plain enjoy it. it also provides a sense of job security so to speak, i am counting on my satisfied parents to spread the word of the type of care their children receive and basically sing praises...parents WILL pay any amount of money if they know their children is getting the best care bottom line...as the competition grows, ill eventually raise my prices ( which my contract is set to increase prices june 2013 because that's high PCS season and i'll lose and gain some families), but by then, my name will be out there because of all the families that had the opportunity to afford me back then and are now singing my praises and worth, no matter the cost. pretty soon i wont have to come out of pocket to keep daycare running, so taking a small hit now, guarantees a reputable business in terms of service care provided later.

For most us watching the piggy bank the reality is, even if you know from what everyone else says that a tail made by another maker is worth the money you don't have, you will still be looking for something SIMILAR but cheaper. you start thinking what you could be doing with the money left over...you wont be thinking that you are not getting the same style, you'll settle...but what if you get this tail you thought you were settling for and you Love the heck out of it? you cant believe you got it for the price you did? the 1st thing you're gonna do is tell everybody!! lol

maybe this is stevi's strategy...she has basically expanded the market to those who would've normally not been able to afford her tails and she aims to come out of this with satisfied customers who will later bring her more business, so to speak; when her prices go back up...its a good strategy IF that's indeed her plan and will pay for itself in the end. so maybe the sale is just what she has presented it to be. That's my take on the matter anyway.

NOW: with all that babbling up top. I DONT know stevi, so i dont infact know this IS what's happening, like i said...its my take and opinion based on everything i've observed.

[AniaR]

All good points. I think the whole community is just sensitive in general because of past issues. And I think because some of us know Stevi pretty well and stuff she's been through recently we don't want to see anymore drama etc.