continuing to be off topic: i want to set fire to rain now. yes. now i know that this is completely possible!Originally Posted by AptaMer
continuing to be off topic: i want to set fire to rain now. yes. now i know that this is completely possible!
I just found this picture... oh my gosh, her face! Lol awesome
someone was bored.
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I don't post very often, but I do have some things to say about this topic that may help because I have worked with many captive marine animals over the years including one whale, dolphins, sea lions, penguins, sea turtles and currently rays, sharks, fish and invertebrates. I can definitely see both sides of the spectrum. On the one hand, there is something so majestic and awe-inspiring about seeing these animals in their natural environment. On the other end, there ARE animals in captivity. It is what it is. With that being said, I think Raina has it right: parks and aquariums. The facilities that you see that are big and beautiful are AZA accredited. They go to great lengths to establish their facility under AZA regulations, which is pretty lengthy and sometimes difficult. I started at the Long Beach Aquarium which was AZA accredited then moved to a marine mammal park (which wasn't) then moved on again. By all means, the marine mammal park did some amazing work with the animal behavior early on. Even B.F. Skinner came and worked at our park and his daughter became a trainer. They did much work that enhanced the education of marine mammals. They actually took the dolphins out into the wild alongside boats and did research with them; the curator wrote many books about their research.
However, nowadays, they educate public enough to say they "educate the public." They definitely are not conservation-based, but we were required to tell the public after each show or lecture to "pick up trash on the beach." Raina, I might be able to explain the "stimming" behavior that you were seeing. When you are face-to-face with a 500+ pound animal, you need it to know you are in control and they will not turn on you. I don't mean this to say that they are "unhappy" or "angry," just that not all dolphins are naturally "happy" creatures, yet these are very human characteristics (giving animals human characteristics is known as "anthropomorphizing" and doing this was a big no-no). Just like your dog or cat, they can get frustrated or excited and bite; or if they turned too quickly, we'd get a fluke in the thigh. When putting guests in the water, we also tried to stay away from this happening. So this "stimming" is actually them failing a behavior and asking it again. At our facility, we asked three times and moved on if they continued to fail so as not to get them frustrated. In the end, everything had to be positive and stimulating for them, but it was a constant effort to keep their behavior maintained. We never "made" any animal do anything they didn't want to do. For instance, one occasion in a show, two male dolphins decided to ditch the show and play with each other. Since none of the trainers could get them to station, the rest of the show was spent with them playing with each other. Another time during the show, the narrator was explaining training techniques and the dolphin was to touch his rostrum to the ball. Well, this dolphin wanted to eat the ball...and he did just that! The trainer asked two more times and all he wanted to do was eat the ball, so she moved on and was able to reinforce him for another behavior. Like I said, it's a constant effort and there is so much more that goes into working with marine mammals than "they are so sad in their captive environment." With all these examples, it sounds like they couldn't do anything, lol, but everything is considered: social structures, health, behavior, diets, etc. And they did very occasionally give live fish as stimulation. But in the end, it is a business. The park, animals and staff depend on the admission and interactions. While it sounds good and great to stop supporting this, I believe losing that business will, in turn, hurt the animals, not help them. While they get the very best care, if there is not any means to provide this care, corners would have to be cut. And there is no "Free Willy" mindset; you cannot release a marine mammal into the wild. Marine mammals in captivity would die if they were ever released. If anything, they would just get sent to another facility, which would crowd pools. That's what we want to avoid!
Am I in agreement with what happens in Taiji? Absolutely not! But that's NOT how all dolphins are brought to facilities either. Nowadays, especially in the US, parks trade animals to avoid incest breeding. I don't know the exact letter of the law, but I know in the US the marine mammal protection act prevents capturing dolphins or whales. However, at the facility where I worked we did bring in two whales from Japan. Their option was to be slaughtered or come to our park. We took them with open arms and they lived 30+ years, which is probably longer than they would have lived in the wild and definitely longer than they would have lived wherever they were in Japan.
I'm not saying all facilities are the same; that was just my experience working with them. Sea lions, penguins, sharks, rays and sea turtles are on a very different spectrum and working with their behavior, diets and facilities is also on a completely different scale.
Case-in-point: it's a vicious cycle. We all love to see animals in the wild, but since they are in captivity and have great healthcare, it is what it is. This is our opportunity to learn and be inspired to help them in the future. Not by cutting costs which could eventually hurt the animals that are there, but to find ways of helping them in the wild such as cutting fishing lines and lures, cleaning our seas, etc. I'm not looking for an argument; everyone has their own opinion. This is just what I've gained from my experiences because sometimes it's helpful to get an insider's point-of-view. I've really like hearing people's thoughts, opinions and experiences! It's a difficult topic. Keep on!
The only problem, for me, is it's not great healthcare. Sure there are vets on call and such in case of emergencies but really the healthcare is that of "treat the symptoms" instead of the cause.
I just can't see how their lifespan is so diminished in captivity.
Have their been studies on lifespan in parks vs aquariums? That would be interesting if there was a difference.
I dunno.... perhaps I'm just rambling. Still like hearing everyone's input.
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Just wondering where you got that information from? I've not heard that.The only problem, for me, is it's not great healthcare. Sure there are vets on call and such in case of emergencies but really the healthcare is that of "treat the symptoms" instead of the cause.
Have their been studies on lifespan in parks vs aquariums? That would be interesting if there was a difference.
Do you mean AZA accredited facilities vs. non AZA facilities? Marine Mammal parks can be AZA accredited and have established regulations on the treatment of their animals. Aquariums mostly contain teleosts, elasmobranchs, echinoderms, hydroids, etc. and can also be AZA (or not AZA) accredited. I've not ever heard that they live less in captivity. We were not AZA accredited, yet had a dolphin that was 56 years old when it finally left from old age and a ray that is nearly 20 years old. And they don't just treat symptoms. Every morning for the marine mammals, there are required "DPE's" (Daily Physical Examinations). Literally, every inch of the animal's body is analyzed and inspected for any new scratches or rashes and catching any behavioral cues that could be cause for concern. Everyday, these DPE results get sent to the on-site vet for analysis and data entry. They compare the results for the day with that animal's average. There are regular mucous tests, urine tests and blood tests to make sure everything is on track and regular. This is better than most people ever get. You always hear when people get sick that "if they had just got tested and seen it sooner..." Well, they see things as early as possible and even before that. And that is just the beginning. The animals are government property; if anything happens due to negligence, the facility can be in major trouble. This is in the US. I have friends that work with marine mammals and elasmobranchs in Canada, Turkey, Mexico and the Netherlands and their standard of care is just as high. I heard of some sketchy stuff that happened in Mexico, but nothing that deliberately hurts or neglects animals. Mostly, everything is politics. SO MANY POLITICS!
I'm not condoning the capture of marine mammals into captivity, but I've had the experience of what day-to-day treatment and care is like. Again, touchy subject, but I like hearing people thoughts and experiences.
Well that's good to hear! Thanks for informing me. Sounds like you're at a good place. I hope all places are as good as that.
Makes sense being watched by the government they'd wanna have a good rap.
Sounds expensive too.
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Hi AniaR, What Linda Stephanie said is true, or at least I think you can see it happening at Marineland here in Ontario.
I was talking to a lady who retired a few years ago from running a company that put on tours to Niagara Falls, who knows the whole area. She said the bad news stories about Marineland were probably because the place is struggling to stay in business. She said Marineland, along with so many other attractions in the area, depended heavily on the influx of visitors from the Uniter States, and when the economy got really bad in 2008 and people were losing their homes and jobs and stuff like that, she saw tourism in the area drop off a cliff. She said she expects several of the tourist attractions to eaither close or be dramatically reduced in size unless the US economy comes back. She also said the new in the US media about the economy recovering, etc. are only partly true, she said people aren't getting their jobs back very fast in places that matter for Niagara Falls tourism, like New York, Ohio and Michigan, and even when they do, so many have lost their homes, they'll be spending some time recovering from that rather than going on trips.
I think Marineland must have been a very different place when you went years ago (before 2008?)
In the summer I took a bunch of students to Marineland and was kind of sad. The whole place has a kind of pall hanging over it. I had seen a video of the show from years ago, and they had lots of trainers, the show was really exciting, in the video those people took, the place looked siny and clean and bright. When I was there last summer with the students, many of the buildings were dingy, looked like they needed paint and maintenance, the show only had 2 trainers, had only as few dolphins and a couple of seals- and there was a whole area with signs up about a future expansion to the park where there were going to be fish attractions, but nothing was happening, it was just bare land with nothing being done.
I asked one of the staff about an Orca who had been splashing people in the old days, and she said the animal had been moved to another aquarium. The orcas they had left were just swimming listlessly in their tanks, and in fact, I hadn't really known much about Marineland before that, the condition of the orcas and belugas there made me start looking into it, and to talk to the person who used to run the travel business.
So I guess what Linda Stephanie says is true. Without the visitors, a for-profit park will just slowly run out of gas, sputter to a stop, and the animals will have to go elsewhere. In the case of Marineland, though, I'm not sure anything can stop it. It will need a huge upturn in the USA's economy, and the ability to survive until people who have work again have dealt with their first financial priorities and are ready to splurge on travel again. The people of the mer community wouldn't be enough to make a significant difference either way. My retired friend said she's not sure Marinland will survive at all, and I certainly had to wonder. The other thing I noticed at Marineland was the huge, ginormous, parking lot they have, and it was easily only 1/3 full, on a summer weekend. That may say it all.
Ha I wanted to go to marineland when I was a kid too. Never did though because it was kinda like "well why would I pay to go see them jump in hoops when I can watch them in te wild on tv for free?" (yeah I know parents pay for cable but it's free for me so..)
The Waikiki Aquarium in Honolulu is the one I work at. We have injured seals come in every other month or so which stay in our facility until we can check them out and treat them before returning them to the wild. If they can't be returned we either keep them or they go to a special research facility in California. Eventually some animals like KP-2 or Ho'ailona come back to us at the aquarium from the Californian facility.
When you repeat behaviors it's so the animal doesn't get frustrated. If you train the same behavior before starting new ones they have already been rewarded for something they've accomplished and we make sure they maintain that skill. A lot of the skills are needed because you can't have research unless certain behaviors are learned. Teaching our seals new tricks especially for Maka our 28 year old seal can be challenging. Even things that you'd think would be easy to learn can be hard to teach, to keep an animal from getting frustrated, having a fallback behavior so they can still be rewarded is a good way to work on skills over time. If he doesn't get it a new behavior he can do something he does know to be rewarded a different way. Also a behavior should never really be taken away from an animal. A lot of trainers believe that once an animal has something it should always be practiced. Like if they don't have a skill yet it's just not something they've developed, but if they do have it but aren't asked to show it it's like you're taking something away from them that they already have. Even some skills that have been deemed somewhat riskier like for our seals giving a kiss on the cheek are still grandfathered in to training protocols. To ask for that behavior now though you just have to be supervised and perform the skill outside of public hours.
When it comes to healthcare for our monk seals it's better than mine. They get body exams I believe every day. They get weighed at least once a week. We keep lifetime records of their weights and other data so we can see if something is part of their annual trend or if it's abnormal. If there's even a hint of something wrong with our seals like a bit of possible blood in the stool a vet is called in or tests are run. If something is off on our water quality, like there's too much of a certain plankton species or microbe which we test for every week, we are required to send water samples to a lab EVERY day until the levels are below the guidelines.
Both of our seals would not be alive in the wild. Maka is close to if not past what his natural lifespan would be in the wild, and is still doing quite well. He would not receive the amount of food he gets in the wild. That's one of the biggest reasons monk seal populations are declining, they just don't have enough food available and are losing out to large fishes like Carangids. Ho'ailona would be dead. He is blind and would not be able to hunt.
As the planning about Marine Park considered many times, but could not be result in positive side. As it is very difficult to arrange the required water for large sea animal as compared to zoo animal which required just food and nothing else.
I think mixed feelings are natural- you love the sea and its creatures, you want to be around them. But you can tell, if you're a person who really looks, that when it comes to some of these animals, they should not be in captivity. Taking ceteceans from the sea means separating them from their families- orcas, belugas, they all have very strong social family structures- causing trauma, sticking an animal in an alien environment where he or she will never have their families or freedom again, where they will most likely lose their sonar because the space they're in is too small for animals that normally travel miles in a day.
Breeding in captivity often means difficult pregnancy, difficult birth, many losses, etc. And those animals who survive will be born into a life of, again, no freedom, no idea what it is to swim the open sea, they'll lose their sonar, they will be most likely separated from their families when they are sold, unless they're very lucky and not sold.
There has been a little learned about orcas, for instance, that we wouldn't have known without observing in captivity- such as gestation time. But most of what we know about them can't be learned from a captive animal. Science has to observe them in the wild to really know.
It's heart-breaking to watch footage of belugas or orcas taken forcibly from their families. If you can watch that, and not see and hear them crying out in fear, you really need to question your heart.
It's a no win situation, when you add in that it's also dangerous for humans to be keeping some of these animals.
This is a great article going around on orcas in captivity and the MANY injuries and deaths associated with them. It is meticulously researched and well written. (Warning: some very disturbing descriptions)
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor...-the-Pool.html
And a new documentary about the deaths at Sea World. Blackfish is a name for Orcas, not commonly used, and it's the name of the documentary.
https://www.facebook.com/BlackfishFilm
I grew up in San Diego, went to Sea World all the time. I have very fond memories. But now, as an adult, no I won't go. And I won't take my daughter. I'll go to the Birch Aquarium instead.
Last edited by deepblue; 06-14-2013 at 05:08 PM.
I also have mixed feelings about marine parks and aquariums. Reading over the information presented here, it really does seem hard to justify keeping a marine mammal in an enclosure that doesn't even begin to accommodate the amount of space they would have in the wild, but there truly is something fascinating and inspiring (as in, inspiring to care about the world oceans) in getting to see these amazing cetaceans up close. I think I have to agree that there's a critical difference between parks, where the focus is on making money through the use of shows, and aquariums, where conservation is the main goal. I went to the Vancouver Aquarium the other day, and at the beluga exhibit (which used to house an orca whale), I couldn't quite fathom how they managed to get away with keeping an orca whale in that tank for so long. It seems so small! Even for the beluga whales it seems a little cramped, but I don't think that it's quite as bad as keeping killer whales there. Anyways, I don't claim to know enough about aquariums or parks to make an assertive argument regarding what the correct solution is (although, having significantly larger exhibits and keeping the animals in pods like in the wild seem like a good first step, at least to me).
However, I would like to point out something that seems to have been overlooked so far - whale-watching! I really believe that more effort should be made to promote natural tourism, not just for whales, but for all species. That way, the whales are not put on display behind a sheet of glass, but free to behave naturally and in their own environment. Besides, wouldn't it be even MORE inspiring to see a whale in it's own home rather than within a tank lined by camera-wielding visitors? That's what I believe, anyways. Now, of course, the issue with this is that whale-watching is only available in, yup, the ocean. So, those who live a couple hundred kilometers away from the nearest beach are out of luck. Parks, and certainly aquariums, are not about to disappear any time soon for this reason, but I still believe that those lucky enough to live close to the sea should make good use of it and see if they can catch a glimpse of that famous whale-tail sticking out of the water. Of course, there are other opportunities for wildlife observation as well - bear tours, dolphin-watching, even, as I was so lucky to experience, swimming with wild dolphins by simply snorkelling above and observing the wonder of a hundred spotted dolphins passing below me! I think that that beats out a dolphin encounter in an enclosed exhibit any day. What do you guys think?
The best kinda truth!
Short and sweet!
I can see the good and the bad but most of all I Love Fish and marine mammals! Especially my favorite marine mammal, the elusive Mermaid!
[B][FONT=book antiqua]~Summer[/FONT][/B]
Being from Georgia, I can't help but be proud of our aquarium and the care that is put into research and housing of the marine animals here. I have noticed that everyone is thrilled about the denial of the Beluga whales being transferred here from Russia, but after seeing how the whales are being kept, I have to wonder why everyone thinks they are better off where they are. I totally get that the point is to discourage further wild captures, but surely the aquarium would take better care of them than what they are receiving at the moment. I guess there is no perfect solution.
I feel torn as well. I love the aquarium, I love visiting, it fascinated me as a kid and I want to get married in one!
And from my trip to seaworld, I recall all the dolphins that I touched had huge scar marks or chunks out of their fins, because it made me sad when we fed them. I do love that aquariums and research centers save a lot of animals. They give them second chances and rehabilitate them to try to get them back in the wild.
I don't believe in taking so many fish from an area that it ruins an ecosystem. I don't believe in forcing an animal to perform until it dies. I don't believe in cruelty and purposeful harming of an animal.
The dark side, I don't know much about other than people saying they're cruel. I mean, we train dogs and cats and birds and horses to perform, horses were once wild. Idk, I need more research as well. I like to think, that the animals are well treated by people who dream of these jobs working in the habitats. Instead of, like horse that are raced until They're legs break and they have to be sedated (happens all the time)
User formerly known as "MermaidKeri".
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