Standard Monofin tail vs an extended tail ( H2o & Splash )

[MarkF]

Everything I know of H2o

[Trident True]

WOW, this is a lot to take in.. so far you probably the only one that has found this information. I was originally going to but in belts as a precaution, but then thought i might not need them. the tais very tight around my hips and butt. so there may be a chance it may not slip down at all. i may create myself a neoprene sock to put over my legs if it does end up slipping down. I havent tried it yet but we shall see, in my thread the tail with the neoprene was my first failed attempt which didn't end up working out. I wish i had this info before i started on the project as it would of helped. the last full silicone tail in my tread is my Newer version of the tail. but with my first tail i wasn't on the right track, it looks to me that the neoprene Suit as padding in it which i never knew of. so this is what i have come up with. do you think that this will work?

looking at clair in the photo. look to the feet area. imagine using a pair of Rubber flippers. the shoe part of the flipper would act as the foot pocket and the rest of it would act as the extension. the flippers may need to be cut back etc etc to get the desired look. the fluke is place about 5 to 6'' under the bottom of the toes, so attached to the flippers. Then the silicone skin is placed over top of the flipper and Siliconed into place. keeping in mind that the silicone skin is hollow, but slightly larger around the foot pocket and flippers so it doesn't ''show'' them up in the suit. 1cm thick silicone is actually quiet sturdy and holds its shape eg when you press on it it will not sink in. the extension in my eyes would add too much weight to the end of the tail if it was solid silicone. to my knowledge though I think you can purchase silicone foam {which it lighter} that could possibly be used in the extension part if you think that it should't be hollow.

[MarkF]

In regards to the belts, the loops are sown into a reinforced sections of the neoprene which the backside was later covered. Your sock idea may not have the room.
My first thought for filling the void would be to use nylon tubing. It's hollow, if thin walled would have some give and if many were stuffed in would slide against each other.
Once they found their rod length the tail fin bone and rod were made one piece.
Using the fin from your swim fins may work, really depends on the glue I suppose.
Dude- your making it your so ahead of the pack. Good job. I'm still drawing my fluke bones to create a mold for the fiberglass, I'm concerned too, the glass fatiguing in the rod. I'm still unsure of the union of the rod to the foot pocket. Maybe one piece of fiberglass, Foot pocket to finbone tip.

In the Mako seasons they lost about 25% of the tail weight which makes me think they dropped the neoprene suit.
I also wonder if the tail rod extends up to her ankles and has reinforcement instead of just a plate on the foot bottom.

Well, I've decided to create a similar tail with some changes. The Neoprene gives their tail more girth and additionally hides knees, I wasn't planning on neoprene but I'll have to reconsider it, it does reduce the silicon and really helps give this look. Also I know I going with larger scales and differently not orange. I think it needs a deeper tail, but Hanna said it's fast so maybe i'll keep their design. Colors I know Silvers and Blues for the Pacific Coast.

[Trident True]

if your going with a fibreglass rod it may be a wiser choice to go Nylon rod, as we know that it holds up under pressure. I think the mako mermaids have a spring in them not rod. apparently with the rod it nearly adds 2ft as ive read from the bottom of the toes. the Nylon insert that is inserted into the fluke which attaches to the rod and foot plate is obviously for structure, but it will limit the flexibility of the fluke. I would go with a complete fiberglass foot pocket with the rod attachment. With the suit, perhaps the padding is some sort of foam that will take the weight off the initial tail. maybe its only been put in certain areas in order not to make it completely weightless so you float?

some things to think about when creating.

to make it easier to get your feet into the pocket. make sure the zippier. if using one goes all the way down. i find it hard to get my feet in and centred. only because my zippier doesn't go the length of the pocket.

are you going to be simply relying on the extension mechanism to push you through the water, or are you going to be able to bend your legs as well? as far as im aware the girls in H20 could't bend them but the girls in mako mermaids could.

[MarkF]

Seems they have flex and Hanna's answer that the tail was fast also reinforces the point is works.
Check out this link, it show the tail in action. -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dT_sqLQ9lH0
Have you measured the width of the tail fin compared to Claire? It's close to 4 feet or 1.21 meters, what do you get?
If that tail is that big I have to try it before any skin gets made.
I'm tempted to write them and see what they actually say.
This may be a illusion of the camera.

I know everyone in Mernetworkland has tails that have to be stretched to get on, I don't think H2o made this tails tight, it's all about the belts and the waist band. I've also watched videos of them putting it on, and the crews not struggling with the zippers.

This newer designs do look to be steel spring or white fiberglass like an archery bow.



The photo with the three suits, the filled one shows the fin shaft at the coming out of the heel and the flatten suit its still straight. That makes me think the shaft is connected to the legs somehow and not a foot plate. Weird & interesting, wow. I'm seeing a lot of lessons from this evaluation.

[Trident True]

Ive had a look at the vid i noticed that the girls don't bend their legs. so perhaps its not attached to the legs. they simply rely on the mechanism to push them through the water. as far as width goes will depend on hight and weight. my fluke is just over 2ft wide, but im quiet slender. anything wider than this make it's look um-proportioned to my body. 4ft to me sounds too large not to mention the weight of the fluke. there could be a possibility of 2.5ft wide. 30'' but not 4ft 48''. when you do up your fluke (shape) its best to draw it on paper first this will allow you to see if it looks proportioned to your body. a 4ft fluke would suit Michael Jordan not Claire Seriously though these tails have done my head in trying to figure out how to make them. if I wasn't saving for a house. I would simply spend the 10K and get one

[MarkF]

I don't think the real mermaid or pro version of a long tail has been made yet.
As far as the hydrodynamics control the wearer has is yet to be created or at least improved. Meaning with a long extension the pivot point for the fin show be at the beginning of the fin and not over the middle of the spring or at the wearers ankle at 10" or 12" away from the fin. Using just a flex rod or spring doesn't give the wearer any small steering control and that's why Hanna Fraser I believe felt it was fast, but challenging to use.

From this I think I'm ready to draw-up my plans and agree with you on the H2o tail width is crazy “at least in the blue picture”, except that I'm going to start with a 33ish" wide tail. Many ocean fish tails are the height of the body with the body fins extended, my generality for the tail is twice my shoulder width. Sooo my shoulder are about 17" wide. That gives the fin 8" of clean water on either side.

As far as the tail’s articulation to provide slow speed steering I've got some ideas. Well Trident True, thank you for the ideas and your experience. I going to CAD next and work out the mechanics for the tail and build it without the legging skin. I’ll let you know how that comes out.

Ya know, we could draw a good construction plan set if we wanted to for the H2o tail now. They must thicken areas with layering neoprene to faten and keep the body from wrinkling. In its finished design there isn't any stretching of the skin and the belts hold it on. I think if it did have to stretch 2" like many of the MerNetwork tails the scales would pop off. Also neoprene is limited in it’s stretch. Positive side for the tail is I think you could make it fairly inexpensively and quickly compared to the 100% silicone tails.

[Trident True]

sounds like a plan, I will watch this thread to see how it goes. good luck with this

[PearlieMae]

I think part of the issue with creating an extended tail to swim in is that the only references to extended tails are tails used in TV/Movie production! They aren't meant for more than short segments, the mers have handlers and crew and basically, the tails are just for show. Literally.

I've been mulling it over in my head while I work on my "standard" length swimming tail, and if I were to tackle an extended tail, I might look into using carbon fiber rather than fiberglass or nylon 'bones'. The interior structure would need an elaborate strap attachment system - or other typical prosthetic stabilizing system - in order to transfer power to the end of the tail to propel you through the water. And, lacking a musculature into the end of the tail, you are going to have to sacrifice some propulsion and/or maneuverability in order to create length. A large proportion of the propulsion (say THAT three times fast) from feet in a monofin is generated from direct contact with the fin and the strength of your ankles and leg muscles. You MIGHT be able to make a carbon fiber muscular interior system cutting the fiber on the bias and making a second layer that is a counter bias, transferring movement down the length of the tail, but it would take at least a year of trial and error just for R&D alone, not to mention thousands of dollars in supplies...all before even skinning the whole thing to look real!

I'm not saying it can't be done, but I'm not sure that an extended tail can be all things a mer would want. It might look good, but you lose finesse. It might be powerful, but you sacrifice turning, it moves perfectly through the water, but you are a dead stick on land because of weight...etc.

I'm not sure that it would be very practical, overall.

EDIT: Just playing Devil's Advocate.

[MarkF]

Hi PearlieMae,
Yes,No,Magic,Maybe-
Yes I agree, Hollywood props- They are for the screen.
Devil Advocate, no way. Mermaid BrainyMae - way!
Structures, efforts, heavy on land? A little magic will solve the structures and effort, which I'm want to test before the big reveal.
Heavy maybe on land, I am expecting 15% more.
I'm building a test for the Fin extension. MerMagic

[Trident True]

I will be giving it another go after this tail is complete. ive got a concept i want to try first and if all things go well with my current tail. (due to build) then I will endeavour on to the newer design. once My concept has been created and tested we shall see how things progress.

[mermaidgirl7]

hows the tail coming?

[Mermaid Narina]

eep this is so exciting! alot of big words that i dont really understand are being thrown around, buts you guys really seem to know what you're doing i love seeing all those pictures showing the tails being made- where on earth did you find them???

[MarkF]

I am closer to the test build of the extension to cover the issues created in the TV design. Our PearlieMae pointed out a few of them. My hope is to design a tail that puts some of the magic back.
I have three areas in the tail to make what I think would add some magic.

First, the tail fin must move where it’s natural and not where the hosts ankles are located. It doesn’t matter how long the tail. It only wiggles the tail fin “Caudal Fin.” That loses the ankle look.
If the fin is the same for the short tail and the long tail it takes twice the effort to swim, but you go twice as fast. Because we aren’t racers I plan on making the tail a little softer so it’s about the same effort and speed to swim. Done-

Second, fish can move both sides of the tail fin separately. That gives them the ability to make their tail swim sideways where Merfolk tails fin sides move up and down together only. When gliding a fish can twirl “Spin” by making one side of the fin go up and the other side down. This is also helpful when turning by banking to a side and doing a kinda sideways loop. The foot pockets will have spots so if your legs are able to kick harder than your ankles can hold the stops keep the feet from getting any extra stress and hurting the ankles. Done-

Still in CAD development-
Third is the ability to raise and lower the side fins or in many of the Mer designs the dorsal fins.
To me when a kid is evaluating what they see I think it’s texture and motion “Is it alive”. If the mermaid without the use of her hands can make the dorsal fins raise up when startled or go down when shy or scared helps make that moment of wonder last longer. I have a plan for this but haven’t put it in CAD yet “designing stuff for work and Life, keeps me going in different directions.”

This is all talk until I can get it in the pool. The drawings for me to visualize the mechanics, the actual tail will have push/pull cable which I put in some boat control system I’ve designed. The square board looking parts will be formed fiberglass to fit my legs.
The Merworks are still going. May skip the 3rd part just to try the 1st and 2nd parts.
....PS foot angles are for me, they are exaggerated. Thanks ya-all.

[aqua_dot]

This looks amazing!

[Echidna]

I'm following this thread with great interest.
How is this coming along?

I'm especially curious if this device is really good for going fast (and straight- doing anything else will probably be nigh on impossible).
I wonder because I've been re-watching all H2O seasons, and I noticed none of the scenes where the tails are shown in action is longer than 2 or 3 seconds.
Most scenes are just close-ups where the tails aren't even on screen.

The scenes when they really swim, it's hard to say how fast they move, but it sure doesn't look fast.
It looks elegant and graceful, sure, but they hardly get forward.
I'm pretty sure they sacrificed not only manoeverability, but also speed for the realistic look of a long, knee- and ankleless tail.
I've yet to re-watch Mako, because I believe they showed the actors swimming a bit more and it looked better, probably due to the tails being lighter and less cumbersome, but even so, the extended tails are designed to be used with a whole slew of helpers, and I wouldn't expect them to be faster than a normal monofin- all H2O swimming looks as if done in slow-motion.

If I had the money, I'd invest in the Lunocet or Dol-Fin and try an extended version myself.
I've read many reviews about both, and while the creators claim the fins were built for speed and are the fastest way to move underwater ever, the swimming videos where they demonstrated looked rather average speed-wise.

Ah well.
Can't wait to see what this develops into.

[Mujdak]

Ive had a look at the vid i noticed that the girls don't bend their legs. so perhaps its not attached to the legs. they simply rely on the mechanism to push them through the water. as far as width goes will depend on hight and weight. my fluke is just over 2ft wide, but im quiet slender. anything wider than this make it's look um-proportioned to my body. 4ft to me sounds too large not to mention the weight of the fluke. there could be a possibility of 2.5ft wide. 30'' but not 4ft 48''. when you do up your fluke (shape) its best to draw it on paper first this will allow you to see if it looks proportioned to your body. a 4ft fluke would suit Michael Jordan not Claire :) Seriously though these tails have done my head in trying to figure out how to make them. if I wasn't saving for a house. I would simply spend the 10K and get one :)

how would you get one :)

[Trident True]

Mujdak. the creators of the tails will make them as long as you can afford the price tag.

[Mujdak]

Thank You for the answer.
Do you know about any creators?

[Mujdak]

Hello MarkF,
what about this project? Any results?