Hey. Hi.
For any other white people in the room who are just kind of following along and watching (and hopefully learning) from all this, a good documentary that was very interesting and eye opening I found is Dark Girls.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Girls
It was on Netflix for a while (might still be) and is very good. It unpacks a lot of the issues black women face today and historically.
This this thisOriginally Posted by merwandering
It's sad to see this conversation digress this wayI know how deeply personal this is, and how horrific the consequences of the misunderstandings in society, that lead to fear, that lead to anger, that lead to hate, that lead to deaths.
Or what is most often the case, simply devalued.
The only thing is that when the discussion gets so charged, people stop listening. Learning stops. Change stops. And while I generally tend to recoil from conversations that get this way, not this kind. This is probably one of the most important conversations on this forum or in this nation right now.
Really- half of this argument is about semantics.
Drucilla- are you hearing the difference in what you are talking about and the definition of racism? I want to step in and help, because the back and forth is so unnecessary. It's a definition thing. What they are talking about in terms of racism can't be confined to what's going on in a household, or in a specific school, etc. It's a massive, systematic, institutionalized system that holds a race in power generally speaking. What you suffered is horrible and traumatic and ugly and tragic abuse, and I am so, so sorry that happened to you. I can completely see why that would leave you very emotionally raw in this kind of conversation. I hope that as human beings we can look at each others suffering and unite against the hate that causes that kind of pain, instead of people who are hurting turning against each other.
The reason they are saying that isn't racism is that while it is racially driven maltreatment, racism is what grooms an entire nation of people, like a whole constant brainwashing, a media promoting a Eurocentric beauty standard, an entire political system, people hiring and firing and arresting people, to believe is a hierarchy of worth. And even though abuse destroys a part of you at your core, the thing they are talking about here is that, if you walk down the street, while you carry that pain, the rest of the world sees you a certain way, and treats you accordingly.
So the conversation at hand has GOT to focus on the things contributing to that piece. What is happening in this world and in the mermaid community that are perpetuating that system, and how we can actively dismantle it
So- I am about to do what everyone is going to want to punch me in the face for, and...start a dreads thread.
But it is because I think locks are their own conversation, and also because I think this thread needs to be relieved of that focus.
Please send my hate mail to my personal messages, and refrain from it in comments lol
I come from Hawaii where a lot of people (white) get Polynesian/tribal tattoos without understanding that there are stories ingrained in real tattoos and designs. I am also Asian. I see people with Chinese symbols as tattoos all the time. They have always been on white people. I saw someone with a tattoo who told me it meant "harmony" and it was literally the grammatical word for "and". I felt embarrassed for her. Honestly, if I had known about your design before it was made and it was up for discussion, I would have said something. But I don't know why you wanted it - maybe the symbols had some personal meaning to you. Maybe a partner had that as their tattoo. And that's okay, to me. And if that was the case I'd probably be aware that I'd have to talk about it with everyone that asks. I mean, if I were going to drop that much money on a tail I would really think hard about the design and why every bit of it was special to me (but that's just me). I think it's important to be aware of where you come from, but if you don't, that's also okay. Your lineage doesn't need to be present for you to function everyday in society. But it's good to be aware that it does for a lot of other people. You could look into your family history if you wanted. You could get tested and connected with family all over the world, if it's that important to you.
In any case, this topic itself was about Hannah accepting a role in which she plays a race that is not her own. To her, this comes across as another ladder rung for her career - she'll accept any role that is big enough/pays well enough/makes her look impressive - and so would anyone else. She doesn't understand how a young Asian girl might watch her work and wonder why a white blonde lady is pretending she belongs in her heritage and that could be damaging. When I was in preschool we would have story time and I remember when the teacher read a book about mothers - every single mother in that book was white and was stay at home and I was so confused. My mother is not white. She is also not a stay at home mother. I remember questioning myself at 3 if the lady I would see later in the day was actually a real mom. That's messed up, don't you think?
Self vs Society
Gain vs Perception
I'm worried this post will come across as a ramble. I have a lot of thoughts and it's not fully sorted through yet.
^ you're good. I understood everything.
The SeaGlass Siren
There was a reason for me putting the tribal symbol on my tail, other than it looking cool: in my religion/culture, I can't get tattoos. I wanted a symbol to embody strength and a warrior spirit, more than just my original blue tang tail design. I wanted to show little girls that they don't have to adhere to "magical princess" stereotypes, and some mermaids could be amazingly bada$$ too. As I mentioned earlier, I know next to nothing about my lineage, so I borrowed a Celtic tribal design to represent my strength. I'm sure there are other ways to do this as well, but I felt that it was something that didn't need much explanation to kids for them to get the point.
Under the same vein as the tribal tattoo and tattoos in other languages, I used to see a lot of Hebrew tattoos on people when I was a lifeguard. Most (if not all) of the people I talked to did not know the language. When I asked them what they thought their tattoo said, some were relatively close to the actual meaning of the word or phrases, but some were really, really far off.
"Oh, a tattoo in Hebrew! What does yours say?"
"G-d lives within me."
(It actually says "Jacob")
~Mermaid Celeste: The Orlando Mermaid~
Booking Website/Model Mayhem
Facebook Fan Page /Pinterest/Twitter/YouTube/Instagram
In any case, this topic itself was about Hannah accepting a role in which she plays a race that is not her own. To her, this comes across as another ladder rung for her career - she'll accept any role that is big enough/pays well enough/makes her look impressive - and so would anyone else. She doesn't understand how a young Asian girl might watch her work and wonder why a white blonde lady is pretending she belongs in her heritage and that could be damaging. When I was in preschool we would have story time and I remember when the teacher read a book about mothers - every single mother in that book was white and was stay at home and I was so confused. My mother is not white. She is also not a stay at home mother. I remember questioning myself at 3 if the lady I would see later in the day was actually a real mom. That's messed up, don't you think?
well said! also, sad
I have an embaressing story to share when I was a kid. My mom never took me out of the house when I was young (I was super sick) I did not see a non-white person until I was 4. My first visit to the grocery store was a man who recently imigrated from Morocco and he was black as night and I'd NEVER seen anything like that in real life. I started crying and asking my mom what was wrong with the man and I am sure my mother was MORTIFIED at the time. God love this man, he took it all in stride, and came over and introduced himself and actually became a life long family friend because I was an ignorant 4 year old.
How does a kid get to 4 without understanding black people are real? Pretty much no representation in the TV/books I was consuming as a toddler.
Working as an ECE I am so glad to see how much that has changed. Daycares here strive to have dolls in many colours, books and videos representing all people, and I'd say that whites in many of the centres where I worked were either 50/50 or 25% so they were around a lot of non white friends. I see these kids have no idea what racism is because it's just their normal friend. Where I live racism awareness programs are huge in schools to so when they get to school they're taught how to stand up for each other rights. Especially the last school where I worked.
I am glad so many things have improved since I was a kid but we sure as hell have a long way to go.
Hahaha that's cringeworthy! Yeah, but see you used a symbol that had a strong personal meaning to you. In my book, that's okay. I just think that to go down that path you'll have to, from time to time, deal with questions about it. Hannah doesn't have that connection. This isn't a personal journey to her. It's just a gig. It's meaningless except for the context of resume building. Does that make sense?
OMG I'm not sure whether I should laugh or cry at that story lol. But yeah, I feel really thankful that I get to work on a mermaid team that does have diversity (I mean, there's only two of us that aren't blondes, but still). I get the least amount of gig requests in my opinion, although I DO NOT have the actual numbers to back that up so don't take that as fact. In my perception the requests are either for Hawaiian mermaid because we are in Hawaii, or blonde because that is what most people think of when they think mermaids (besides Ariel).well said! also, sad
I have an embaressing story to share when I was a kid. My mom never took me out of the house when I was young (I was super sick) I did not see a non-white person until I was 4. My first visit to the grocery store was a man who recently imigrated from Morocco and he was black as night and I'd NEVER seen anything like that in real life. I started crying and asking my mom what was wrong with the man and I am sure my mother was MORTIFIED at the time. God love this man, he took it all in stride, and came over and introduced himself and actually became a life long family friend because I was an ignorant 4 year old.
How does a kid get to 4 without understanding black people are real? Pretty much no representation in the TV/books I was consuming as a toddler.
Working as an ECE I am so glad to see how much that has changed. Daycares here strive to have dolls in many colours, books and videos representing all people, and I'd say that whites in many of the centres where I worked were either 50/50 or 25% so they were around a lot of non white friends. I see these kids have no idea what racism is because it's just their normal friend. Where I live racism awareness programs are huge in schools to so when they get to school they're taught how to stand up for each other rights. Especially the last school where I worked.
I am glad so many things have improved since I was a kid but we sure as hell have a long way to go. [/COLOR]
yup, I told my preschool teacher that my mother didn't like brown people and that when my brown friend came to our house to play my mom always left.
(my babysitter was black.)
preschool social skills ftw.
Very interesting topic. Before I was a mermaid I was an opera singer. Puccini's Turandot has been played by non Chinese women for about a century now. Right now in Chicago Theyre performing this opera. It's set in China. This was one of my first paying opera gigs when I was a teen and I was dressed Chinese (and sang in Italian). They didn't hire us based on race, they hired the singers based on talent and skill. My point is that this happens in performance not just in mermaid situations. My sister in law is a ballerina and it happens there also (ie The Nutcracker). I admire Hannah's skill and talent. The only mermaid I think that is at that level is Melissa when it comes to breath hold and Grace underwater. Hannah was approached by her employers who wanted to hire a mermaid with this talent and skill yet I see nothing racist about it. She has to make a living right? I get hired mostly as a blonde and I'm a quarter Cherokee. I have dark features and high cheekbones yet no one has called me racist for being blonde, something that is not in my family? I see women of different races dressing up as Ariel or Belle and I think it's fine. I'm just adding food for thought and not trying to be offensive at all.
Here's an idea! If you are deeply troubled by Hannah being hired this way and you are black or African American (depending on which label you want to use as I have friends who use one or the other) then send in your audition video to the employer. Maybe they initially looked for someone who physically matched the description who also had the talent but could not find someone who could match Hannah in skill and talent? Maybe you are the one who can. It can't hurt, right?
I'm probably going to get a lot of hate here, but I've been so "educated" about this stuff that...honestly, it comes off to me now as "everything white people do is wrong, you're a bad person because you're privileged and white and you couldn't possibly try to understand because you're white so don't ever try to break out of the white stereotypes." And I'm sick and tired of being afraid to do anything.
I gather this is about Hannah playing a role that is a cultural icon not of her own race.
Why is this okay when it's a person of color (is that the politically correct term now)? Auditions are "colorblind" all the time! I've seen Celtic gods played by colored people, traditionally colored characters played by people who are Hispanic or Asian...and yet when it's a "white" girl playing the role it's suddenly horrible.
Take the Disney Frozen show. They cast, as hugely popular SISTERS from a European culture who have been previously established in their race, a woman of color and a white woman. Anyone who raised negative opinions was immediately met with hate and, "The auditions were colorblind. It's standard in the industry, and you're just racist saying that Elsa shouldn't be black." A popular character from a popular company. Yet it was not only okay, but applauded.
I have seen my religion, the most important thing to me IN MY LIFE turned into not only a character but a lewd, disgusting show that not only doesn't understand it but mocks it. But if anyone says that they are supposedly taking it too seriously, they don't understand, they should be flattered that it generates more interest in their culture.
I'm tired of the double standard. I'm sorry I'm white and can't possibly understand. I'm sorry I'm Polish American, but I won't stick to wearing just traditional Polish dress and eating bigos, I'm sorry I instead strive to understand and live in a GLOBAL culture instead of focusing on differences no one can change and drawing a line to divide us all. I'm sorry I have band aids that are "my skin color" (They're not, btw), sorry I "don't get followed through Walmart" (I do, btw, because I'm a wanderer with "shifty eyes" even though I've never stolen anything in my life). I'm sorry I might want to play an amazing role, take an amazing gig, or cosplay someone not of my race. I'M SORRY, okay? And because tone is hard to read over the Internet, this is not some sarcastic sorry, but a heartfelt apology because I've learned my whole life that this IS all my fault. This is what my multicultural classes have instilled in me. Nothing but anxiety and self-hate.
I won't be coming back to this thread, because I'm very aware that this will make me unpopular. This is not a popular opinion to hold. And I'm sorry for that, too.
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Last edited by Thalassa; 07-21-2016 at 11:52 AM.
I know this is becoming a large conversation in general, I have seen more so in film than theatre or live performance- I don't know anything about Hannah or the role, and usually wouldn't ever chime in- however, I think it is important that in these conversations we are listening, and her response made me wonder. The piece that concerned me, and that I commented on, was the response not that she was the one with the skill most necessary for the job, nor that it was a project that they wanted her specifically for, but that she most embodied the role (of an African goddess). I definitely think it is an important conversation, and interesting, and there are many aspects, and I do think growing up in different cultures is a valid reason for those cultures, which are a part of you, to be reflected in your life. But while I have never seen any of her work, and I don't know her background, it would take a lot to convince me that she embodies the role of an African goddess more than any woman of African descent. I just see that that thinking as being destructive to the conversation and the patterns. The reality is that while opera and mermaiding are extremely specific, when there are general jobs and the talent is even, jobs are more likely to go to white women than women of color. So if you have a platform, and an important conversations comes up, your response is a piece of something bigger, and makes an impact on the reality system behind it.
However, so crazy- a very interesting point about specific talent, and yes- a time when yellowface is widely used and accepted.
Last edited by merwandering; 07-21-2016 at 05:11 PM.
Thalassa, I think we were typing at the same time, but one point I wanted to bring up in the dreads thread, but is relavent here, is how many people I am friends with or who are in my family WANT to share their culture. My stepmother, who is Indian, bought me saris and stuck bindis on my forehead from a young age, and was always thrilled about sharing dress and customs with myself, my friends, and now my kids. I have very mixed feelings about locks, because for example, my 10 year old white daughter has grown up with her older sister, her one on one aide from school, and a little girl she shared a hospital room with for a few weeks, who are black, braiding all of her hair, telling her she should wear it like that more often, and that she looks beautiful. But then if she walks down the street that way in a few years, people will think she's a jerk. The biggest thing glaring at me about locks though is how much it was not cool for my black daughter to wear braids growing up, but she'd get made fun of after her hair broke off for it being so short, and she'd get made fun of for wearing a weave or clip ins because her hair was fake.....do you know how much easier her childhood would have been if locks were cool???
it infuriates me to see double standards all.the.time. But bindis, for example, have become somewhat separated from their meaning starting in their culture of origin, widely shared, and engrained in fashion, and- that could be a good thing
Random but It actually sooo irritates my older daughter to see things like a Black Elsa because while some people might applaud it- ELSA ISNT BLACK and I'd love to see more black princesses (and more mixed race sisters to be honest) but is it not kind of creepy for Elsa's race to be interchangeable?
Last edited by merwandering; 07-21-2016 at 12:40 PM.
And just realized- again, my disclaimer is that I am just hopping over briefly from the tail making thread, but would want to say that if this thread is unwelcoming to people with different ideas, there is no dialogue, and then what on earth is the point? If intelligent people who care about making the world a better place can't have a productive and respectful conversation about it, then there needs to be a real look at how things are being discussed. The most powerful forces in changing the trajectory of things are understanding and caring. this thread started as how change can be made in the mermaid community. I'd say- act like a community. Treat each other as if you are working out an issue with a friend. Treat each other as though you initially assume that someone who is sharing their perspective is doing so out of wanting to gain and share perspective.
They didn't. I employ an award winning internationally known circus performer who has direct access to their casting notices across North America. My Free diving instructor also has access (and he just auditioned for a free diving role actually, fins crossed)
I know mers reached out to Circ as well to express their concerns and none heard back.
I think what she's done is done and can't be undone, I think it's more the excuses and replies she's giving to mers expressing their concern and trying to educate her, that has become the problem and spurned on these videos.
I have really thought about it and I feel like this conversation is one that I need to step out of.
It makes me sad because I think it is important, but I also think that depending on the tone, and respect for each other, and the realization that no one can speak for a whole community, or their whole race, and that experiences and situations are very different in different places- that can do more harm than good.
It isn't something I want to be a part of, and I hope that it can evolve, or just end, because when we stop valuing the honest point of view of another person, when we shut people down because they have a different perspective or say they don't agree or don't understand, we are no longer the good guys, even if we have good intentions.
Bonnie have you even seen the videos? Or read the comments under the videos? I'm sure you follow Hannah's page so you'll also see that there were a lot of recommendations for mers who were qualified. Older works like operas you can't do anything to change it. Current works however there should be no excuse.
thalassa... I'm just gonna tell you to read over the thread once more.
seriously bye guys. I'm done with this community. Obviously white mers cryin white tears over what they want is so much more important than the feelings of the oppressed group of people right? :/
The SeaGlass Siren
Please don't leave. I really love having you here. You're inspirational, funny, and intelligent, and you're a dang good mermaid. I would seriously miss you.
Everyone needs to step back for a moment and look at the bigger picture. To my fellow white mers, we've had everything go our way for hundreds of years in the US. It's time to let minorities say what they've got to say and teach us all a little something. Don't you think they deserve to be heard and respected after centuries of being silenced? You can't see the forest between the trees. Let's listen to our mers of color and work together instead of dividing ourselves.
I love all you guys. It doesn't matter where you come from or what you look like. You're all important to me and I want to hear what you need to say.
Lay it on me.
Twilight darkens, yet there in the shade,
Lies a glimmering shadow, the wild mermaid;
As night draws ever closer, there's a choice to be made--
Will you stay as you are, or be delivered to the waves?
Laumina the Storm Siren
Instagram: mermaidwhisperofficial | Facebook: Mermaid Whisper | YouTube: Mermaid Whisper
I second this! Very well said!
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