(( The Drama Bubble Thread ))

[Kanti]

I'll ask once more because I am actually trying to discuss something here, and if you seriously can't respond in a way that doesn't include throwing a hissy fit with all caps and calling me some name and driving all relevancy away from the argument then you may as well block me because you seem to not be able to be friends or even talk normally to people who have different opinions/beliefs than you.

So, anyway, I guess we went over the fact that JUST BECAUSE something is a law doesn't mean it is right or represents what is right, correct? Or do you want to say something different?

[Kanti]

You say that this isn't calling someone back to the carpet?
Telling someone that if they can't talk to someone or explain yourself isn't calling them back? To me that is a basic way of saying "you need to explain yourself" and hence calling them back. This is a perfect example of that. Your bluntness isn't even the question here. I can be blunt too. But I choose when to be and when not to be, and therefore there is never a mention of me being rude, immature, or anything else. (as far as I know).

... How is it confrontational or "calling someone back to the carpet" when at the END OF IT I said "if you think of it as winning and losing, you probably shouldn't be here" and you managed to cut out the end of what I said, AGAIN. I said "But if you want to leave that's fine, it seems you are taking this a bit personally and that's always a bad thing when it comes to discussions." So again, cropping out the conversation to disclude the clear point where I dismissed her and told her she should probably leave before she gets offended. AGAIN not sure if you just didnt read that, this has happened between you and Ayla three times now and I'm not sure if you're just not reading what I say or if you're trying to twist things to try and find some fault that's not there.

I said her response was immature and I explained why I thought that way in the same exact way I would tell my friend if they were being immature and explain to them why.

What would have actually been controntational is if I just went "haha you're sooo immature" or something, but I actually provided quite good reasoning behind my response because I know that when you criticize someone for something you should provide a reason or else it's just rude.

[NerineArcticMermaid]

I have not called your personal beliefs into question. No I was making a point about art theft.

Heres educating you. The US federal Govt has no bearing on what a state can and cannot do in regards to marriage laws. That is wholey up to a state. Maybe you need to go take a government class again and learn how our country works. THe US federal govt only has power regarding Federal laws. Of which marriage is not one of them.

You called into question my personal belief on equal rights. I have every right to be pissed off. ANd matter of fact I never called you a name, I in fact said your actions were crap. Learn to read grammer.

[Kanti]

Nerine, I said in quotations "crap of me" not that you called me crap.

And again, that is nitpicking. The government, whether it be state or federal makes laws. So if the artists had made a STATE law rather than a FEDERAL one it wouldn't have mattered, it's the exact same thing. I mean, if it doesnt then what in the world is the difference? So if the FEDERAL law suggested gays shouldn't marry you'd be behind it then?

And see how you address me? "Here's educating for you" and "Maybe you need to go take a government class again and learn how your country works".
And I am being very "crap" and deserve to be told to "screw you"?
You are getting snarky for absolutely no reason, I am here being completely calm and I am still getting yelled at.

And actually I didn't even call your beliefs into question, I used an example I knew you would see as parallel to show you that it doesn't matter what laws say, that doesn't make them right. I never said HARHARHAR YOU SUPPORT GAY MARRIAGE WHAT A LOOOSER or anything like that so I literally have no idea where you're even getting the right to be offended from.
You're completely overreacting.

[Kanti]

If anything I deserve to be calling you names xD
You literally said I caused drama and am arrogant with zero evidence, you literally completely fabricated lies about me just to win an argument and yet here I am being nothing but polite.

[NerineArcticMermaid]

You are not worth anymore of my time. Speaking to you is like speaking to a wall. Nothing goes in. You dont listen. You did question my beliefs. The fact you even used that as an example shows how immature you are. Again you assume... Art theft is a FEDERAL law. ANd YES it is right. Because artists created the law. Artists wrote it and pushed for it to pass. Again. It is a FEDERAL law. AS in THe entire USA!

I will not reply to you anymore. Dont even bother replying to me.. Wont read it. Dont care for anymore of your dribble.

[Kanti]

You haven't addressed anything I've said and you've been calling me names..
Your pride is astonishing.

[Kanti]

Art theft is a FEDERAL law. ANd YES it is right. Because artists created the law. Artists wrote it and pushed for it to pass. Again. It is a FEDERAL law. AS in THe entire USA!

So then BY YOUR OWN LOGIC, if homosexual marriage was illegal by FEDERAL LAW it would be "the right thing".

[Kanti]

You say that this isn't calling someone back to the carpet?
Telling someone that if they can't talk to someone or explain yourself isn't calling them back? To me that is a basic way of saying "you need to explain yourself" and hence calling them back. This is a perfect example of that. Your bluntness isn't even the question here. I can be blunt too. But I choose when to be and when not to be, and therefore there is never a mention of me being rude, immature, or anything else. (as far as I know).

Sorry I guess you didn't respond so I'm coming back here, because I find it a bit distressing that you thought this was rude.
Telling someone that if they can't talk or explain their point of view that maybe they're wrong, was a direct response to Nerine's "I'm not going to argue, because I know I'll be right". Basically that entire little thing there is a response to that.

Imagine if your friend said something like that. If you cared about the betterment of your friend wouldn't you tell them that it was immature of them to say something like that or would you just leave it be and let them continue doing things like that?
It's like when you tell someone they have something inbetween their teeth. Sure it's sometimes rude to tell someone that but if you don't say anything they're just carrying something that makes them look bad in front of other people who don't know them that well.
When I told Nerine she was being immature, I did it mainly because I felt she was. I explained why to maybe get her to think "wow maybe I am being a bit immature, next time I shouldn't be so concerned with winning" just as if someone told me I was arrogant, for example, and they provided very good reasoning behind it, I would modify my behavior to exclude being arrogant, because generally, I don't like being arrogant just as Nerine shouldn't like being immature.

Unless you think she wasn't being immature? Then that would be a whole nother thing.

[Tasha Mermaid]

I am not normally one to jump into something, infact i prefer to be the one who mediates and helps calm the waters, i am the peacekeeper but i must say.....

I am a BIG fighter for gay rights, here in Australia it is illegal for gay marriage and i fight hard to convince people that it is wrong to deny two people in love to express that to one another in front of their family ad friends, i myself am straight but alot of my friends and family are not. I am passionate about my beliefs in equality and rights of love but i am equally passionate about theft of others ideas, i have had my ideas stolen and i think it is the lowest of lows, artistic theft if WRONG simple as that. People who put hard earned time into anything do not deserve to have it stolen, much less have it sold off as their own. My father when i was very little had that happen to him and now a man who had no talent at all is known world wide as the creator of something that was designed by my own father, he went in pretending to be someone looking to get my father to make (in this case it was the very first model of the computer screen/ tv screen magnifier for the elderly) claiming his mother needed one for her tv, a couple of months later it was all out showing that this man was the creator of it and how he "got the idea after his mother couldn't see her tv well enough", it was even in the news paper, i was 5-7 years old when this happened and i am 25 years old now, my dad still has that newspaper clipping, in an air tight zip lock bag next to the original design, that guy destroyed my dad, it broke his heart to see his invention stolen right from under his feet when he thought he was simply helping out a friend..... YES this may not be a tail but it is the very some thing, my dad, like many of the artists, put months of work and time into his project, NOBODY deserves that to be ripped away from them, nobody !!!

I thought i would share that story, it shows what effects it can have on people. :'(

Kanti you are beautiful for thinking that those who steal your idea are just inspired by it, it is a great way to think but it is also wrong of them to do it, you should not have to make light on your hard work being copied because it is you, who YOU are, your own expression of self, to copy that would not be fair on you.

Nerine i agree there is a difference between having your creative property stolen and the debate on why governments choose to make gay marriage legal, in the end the sole reason gay marriage is illegal is because churches still have such a strong hold and THEY say it is wrong, people are ruled way to much by their religion and somebodies choice of partner to love should not even fall under that, love is love.
Theft is a whole different ball court, and both are wrong.

I really do not wish to offend anyone, i like both of you, you ladies are both strong willed and passionate and for that i am glad, that being said, that also means that there will be alot of times people do not agree or see eye to eye, in the end we are still held together by our love of the mer culture and i hope that although there maybe heated debates that that will not change.

[MermaidBrittany]

Oh come on, the gay marriage was an example! Nothing more.
Clearly people have different have different definitions of "maturity" so I think its best to use other vocab :/

[Kanti]

*takes a shot*

That's very nice of you Lunali, but this is the drama thread, sometimes people just need to let off steam and get it out. And if things don't work out, you can always block people. That's what it's for.

And it sucks at what happened to your dad, in a case like that I guess I would agree that the sort of theft that occured there is wrong. I think when people steal your ideas before you're able to put them into motion is pretty scummy, especially when it's something new like that. I don't support copying, but I don't support caring about it either, I think copying is fine to an extent and you honestly shouldn't stay up at night being worried that someone will steal your ideas. I also don't think that you should make a living copying off someone else. Copying is alright if it promotes the betterment of an existing idea or upgrades something, but in the case of your dad I think it really sucked that he had an invention that was stolen.

This is the sort of thing we were discussing or trying to discuss. I mean, we basically had this topic going pretty well in the sense that we could discuss things that were deemed controversial and state our opinions openly on it. That;s sort of why I like the drama thread, because I actually GET to be blunt and not be so touchy touchy about people's feelings and rather get down and dirty with the point at hand. The problem seems to be when people who attach emotion to an argument/discussion.

You're not offending anyone, even if you disagreed with me.
Nerine doesn't even offend me, I just still think she's immature, well, even moreso now, but that wouldn't prevent me from being her friend in the future or even now. I have immature friends, but I still tell them when I think they're being wrong or mean because if it were me acting like an ass, I'd want someone to tell me that I am and why, not sugarcoat things and step on eggshells because they think they might get me mad over something that I may actually need to fix.

[Kanti]

Oh come on, the gay marriage was an example! Nothing more.
Clearly people have different have different definitions of "maturity" so I think its best to use other vocab :/

That's what I thought as well, but clearly it was some sort of "questioning someone's beliefs" and deserved the "screw you" response.

[Tasha Mermaid]

but not an example that makes sense is what i think people mean, i would not compare somebodies right to marry with someone who steals, completely different things and i would find it would be wrong to do so.
To me the LAW states that if someone was to steal lets say a bag off a woman that that is clearly wrong (and it is), and just because the Law also states that it is wrong for somebody to marry within the same sex (which is wrong of the law to state) does not automatically mean that the law is clearly always wrong so thus the bag thief is now ok because the law was stupid enough to also think gay marriage is wrong.........it makes no sense to compare the two because they are not the same.

In the end gay marriage should not have been brought up into a discussion about wether or not it is considered ok for someone to copy the designs of another, i think that in itself is a little off topic :S

[Kanti]

It was relevant.

Nerine said "Art theft is AGAINST THE LAW so it is wrong"
To which I retorted with "Well homosexual marriage is against the law, so I guess the law dictates with perfect accuracy what is right?"

It was basically taking logic A that was thrown at me and saying "well according to logic A, you must also believe statment B because it follows logic A."

It's a VERY SIMPLE thing to follow.

Let me even re-write it to an If,then statement to avoid confusion:

"If art theft is against the law, then it is wrong"
BY THAT LOGIC
"If homosexual marriage is against the law, then it is wrong"

[Tasha Mermaid]

Kanti you are VERY right, everything to some degree is copied that is what inspiration is all about, i dont sit around worried people will copy me (mainly because im the eldest and i every one of my 5 younger brother salways copied everything of mine) but i think their should be boundaries, i think a complete copy should not be done without the permission of the owner, because hey i mean there are some GREAT things out there and heck even i sometimes think "wow i want that" but i think asking is the way to go about it :), but having someone like my design and gaining inspiration from parts of it for their own designs (lets say same colour different fluke/fins) is more then fine with me, i just think outright copies are the things that are wrong.
:)

[Tasha Mermaid]

It was relevant.

Nerine said "Art theft is AGAINST THE LAW so it is wrong"
To which I retorted with "Well homosexual marriage is against the law, so I guess the law dictates with perfect accuracy what is right?"

It was basically taking logic A that was thrown at me and saying "well according to logic A, you must also believe statment B because it follows logic A."

It's a VERY SIMPLE thing to follow.



ok sorry there is alot of pages i must of missed that, NOW i see how it came in, when we are playing the "law is always right" game it does become relevant to point out a flaw in the law thanks for clarrifying that (back with it now)

[MermaidBrittany]

:doh: Ok fine, another example could have been used, but essentially her point was the main focus, not the direct issue/law. If another ex was used it prob would have been the same thing.

[Tasha Mermaid]

Kanti i MUST ask......what is the "*takes a shot*" that you keep typing, i just picture someone putting on a pair of boxing gloves ready to rumble xD

[Tasha Mermaid]

:doh: Ok fine, another example could have been used, but essentially her point was the main focus, not the direct issue/law. If another ex was used it prob would have been the same thing.


Never mind, i retracted my statement as i had missed something and didnt see where the relevance was, but its been clarified so NOW i get the example :)

[Kanti]

Kanti you are VERY right, everything to some degree is copied that is what inspiration is all about, i dont sit around worried people will copy me (mainly because im the eldest and i every one of my 5 younger brother salways copied everything of mine) but i think their should be boundaries, i think a complete copy should not be done without the permission of the owner, because hey i mean there are some GREAT things out there and heck even i sometimes think "wow i want that" but i think asking is the way to go about it :), but having someone like my design and gaining inspiration from parts of it for their own designs (lets say same colour different fluke/fins) is more then fine with me, i just think outright copies are the things that are wrong.
:)

I agree. In a perfect world people would only copy things to expand on them. Like I said earlier, I was actually glad Mike copied the 13th year fluke because then we get to buy tails with that fluke when the original designer is no more.
I think copying is not a big deal, even if it is for someone's own profit, but I think that when, like what happened to your dad, the idea isn't executed by the original creator, it's a bit depressing because then they were the one who engineered it first.

See this was a pretty damn tame conversation with agreements and disagreements, I guess the reason it's even in the drama thread is because it's a controversial topic.

[Kanti]

Kanti i MUST ask......what is the "*takes a shot*" that you keep typing, i just picture someone putting on a pair of boxing gloves ready to rumble xD
OH Haha! It's that whenever people say "can't we just get along?" or "please stop the drama!" in a thread dedicated to drama I take a shot of alcohol xD
I am pretty drunk right now harharhar

[MermaidBrittany]

Never mind, i retracted my statement as i had missed something and didnt see where the relevance was, but its been clarified so NOW i get the example :)

Ok cool, no hard feelings :)

[Kanti]

ok sorry there is alot of pages i must of missed that, NOW i see how it came in, when we are playing the "law is always right" game it does become relevant to point out a flaw in the law thanks for clarrifying that (back with it now)

That's fine! I know it was a lot to read for people who weren't involved, but I literally see no excuse for Nerine to have acted the way she did. I tried very hard to respond to everything she said, before it got completely ridiculous and mean, and she ended up just abandoning the argument when we got to that point to complain about how I was "questioning her beliefs".
At this point I'm not certain if she doesn't realize what an if/then statement is or if she just didn't want to be wrong, but I assume it was the latter because she came into the damn conversation saying "I know I'll be right" and when you say something like that you're setting yourself up to be a jerk. Well, in my experience.

Sorry not meaning to make you side with anyone or anything, just sort of telling you my summary of the event.

[Tasha Mermaid]

I agree. In a perfect world people would only copy things to expand on them. Like I said earlier, I was actually glad Mike copied the 13th year fluke because then we get to buy tails with that fluke when the original designer is no more.
I think copying is not a big deal, even if it is for someone's own profit, but I think that when, like what happened to your dad, the idea isn't executed by the original creator, it's a bit depressing because then they were the one who engineered it first.

See this was a pretty damn tame conversation with agreements and disagreements, I guess the reason it's even in the drama thread is because it's a controversial topic.



You are right, copying allows for things that once were to live on even after they might not have so in a sense it IS a good thing, but copying the work of something that has yet to be produced and passing it off as your own is stealing, so maybe that should be where the line is drawn, between bringing life back to something and blatantly stealing something for your own benefit before its been produced.

Yeah this is tame but was a good discussion, "taboo" topics are great for debating because it gets people to give their honest opinions.

May i point out i have no clue what this "13 tail" even looks like, is there a link ??? wouldnt mind what started such a condo ;)

[Tasha Mermaid]

Ok cool, no hard feelings :)

not at all :), i am more then happy to admit when im wrong or make a mistake, everyone does at some point and i had :)

[Ayla of Duluth]

Nerine said "Art theft is AGAINST THE LAW so it is wrong"
To which I retorted with "Well homosexual marriage is against the law, so I guess the law dictates with perfect accuracy what is right?"

wait a minute. I'm just going to point out that just because art theft is against the law and is wrong, you can't simply compare that to homosexual marriage. the two are completely unrelated. That's like saying broccoli is healthy, so chocolate must be healthy too. They're entirely unrelated, and the way one law is interpreted has no effect on a completely separate issue. You're comparing apples to oranges. We're talking about intellectual property, not gay marriage.

[Kanti]

No problemo: here it is


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XELnGJy0zFU

It was a tail from the movie, the 13th Year. It's a disney movie from maybe 10 years ago or something like that.
Basically, Mike bought the tail (that's him in the video) and he made a complete carbon copy of the tail. He didn't resculpt it himself, he just made a mold of the ACTUAL tail and resold it. I brought that up because earlier in the conversation people were upset that the Mertailor was using other people's color designs and fluke designs and I said "at least he's doing the sculpt himself, Mike didn't even do that but no one ever gets mad about him!"

Just to recap incase you didn't see that part. It was a loooong time ago.

[Tasha Mermaid]

OH Haha! It's that whenever people say "can't we just get along?" or "please stop the drama!" in a thread dedicated to drama I take a shot of alcohol xD
I am pretty drunk right now harharhar

hahhaha you know that was as far away from a response as i thought i would get, its like drama drinking games xD ......soooooo how many so far and whats the poison of choice ;)

[MermaidBrittany]

10470
:)
oh ahah oops pg didnt refresh :P

[Kanti]

wait a minute. I'm just going to point out that just because art theft is against the law and is wrong, you can't simply compare that to homosexual marriage. the two are completely unrelated. That's like saying broccoli is healthy, so chocolate must be healthy too. They're entirely unrelated, and the way one law is interpreted has no effect on a completely separate issue. You're comparing apples to oranges. We're talking about intellectual property, not gay marriage.

*facepalm*
xD No offense Ayla, I'm not making fun of you, I just find it a very simple concept but I'll re-write it again, SUPER CLEAR this time!

EDIT: the problem with your example is it's missing the IF statement.
A correct version of the if.then with brocoli and chocolate would be like,
IF brocoli comes from a tree, it is healthy
If chocolate comes from a tree, it is also healthy
or something like that.
You need SOME sort of relation between the two, in this case the relation was "laws make things right"

Ok so the statement is made:

"IF art theft is against the law, THEN it is wrong"
So this statement says IF A is against the law, then it is wrong. A can be replaced with anything.
THEREFORE, BY THAT LOGIC
"If homosexuality is against the law, THEN it is also wrong"

This is an if/then statement. You can google it if you haven't seen them before, but it basically relates one piece of logic to another via a statement.

Nerine basically made an argument that said "if something is against the law then it is WRONG"
Well isn't homosexual marriage technically against the law? So therefore it must be wrong by her logic.

[Tasha Mermaid]

oooo that is nice :D ......i would see why he would want to reproduce it

[Kanti]

hahhaha you know that was as far away from a response as i thought i would get, its like drama drinking games xD ......soooooo how many so far and whats the poison of choice ;)

Hahaha
I decided rather than to keep complaining about it I'd just try to make it fun xD
I'm just using irish cream which is AMAZING so I won't complain about it~

[Kanti]

oooo that is nice :D ......i would see why he would want to reproduce it

Yea I think so too! I mean, I don't think I'll ever get to afford that tail but still!
It's nice to see it here and there and still alive because it was a very nice tail design.

But yea, we sort of ended up there in the conversation because no one ever seems to get mad at Mike for basically doing the VERY ESSENTIAL definition of copying. He didn't sculpt it or put any work into it, at least when the Mertailor paints a colorscheme or sculpts a fluke he is the one making the thing himself.

[Tasha Mermaid]

Hahaha
I decided rather than to keep complaining about it I'd just try to make it fun xD
I'm just using irish cream which is AMAZING so I won't complain about it~


oooo i love those, currently only have red wine, chocolate red wine, sweedish cider and Mead (love my mead lol) have one for me too lol

[Kanti]

I've never actually tried chocolate wine.
I hear very mixed reviews about it.

I'm not sure exactly what Mead is xD aside from the fact it was in skyrim a whole lot

[Tasha Mermaid]

Yea I think so too! I mean, I don't think I'll ever get to afford that tail but still!
It's nice to see it here and there and still alive because it was a very nice tail design.

But yea, we sort of ended up there in the conversation because no one ever seems to get mad at Mike for basically doing the VERY ESSENTIAL definition of copying. He didn't sculpt it or put any work into it, at least when the Mertailor paints a colorscheme or sculpts a fluke he is the one making the thing himself.



You know i had no idea Mike did that, i dont really get the complaints about the Eric copying his own things, in reality they are HIS as he created them and i have only seen basic colours not colour designs copied, but i could be wrong on that, i do think that if you are asking a someone else to make it for you that there will always be the chance it could be copied again and is something you should be aware of and ok with it to some degree

[Tasha Mermaid]

I've never actually tried chocolate wine.
I hear very mixed reviews about it.

I'm not sure exactly what Mead is xD aside from the fact it was in skyrim a whole lot



ok i only tried chocolate wine this month when i came across it (or should i say last month) it is essentially like drinking a nice red wine while eating dark chocolate, they compliment so well and not at all what you might be thinking of it. :)

Mead is an old viking alcohol ad one of the first alcohols to exist, it was a way to use up left over honey and to help warm them on cold nights (it can be drank hot or cold, i drink mine at room temp) it is fermented honey and water, and then you get spiced mead which is fermented honey and water with spices such as clove and cinnamon added, both are lovely but many prefer the "honey mead" as so many call it :)....well worth a taste, :D

[Kanti]

Well you see, the argument was that Eric copied one of Raven's colorschemes in his tails and people said he "should know better" than to do that, well stuff along that nature. I don't mean for it to be lesser of an argument I just put the quotes because that's what they said xD
Sorry, I'm being paranoid.
Either way, once they said that we sort of said "well what if someone ordered the tail and they wanted those colors?" and stuff like that, but it ended up that people just said stuff like he copies so much? I sort of forgot, it was a long time ago, but we talked about "well at least you should credit people when they use their designs" and stuff and then we got to the "Mertailor stole a fluke design" where I brought in Mike's example.
Funny enough I never got a response for that which is annoying! Mike completely ripped it off but I mean, if he said he did that's okay? He didn't even do the work and is reaping the profits! Something far worse (imo) than what the Mertailor did! But again, that's my opinion, I was trying to see what everyone else thought about it.

What's worse? Copying something COMPLETELY, as if I bought a Merbella tail, copied the fluke RIGHT off the tail and sold it but said "oh it's a Merbella fluke" or if I copied a Merbella fluke that was my own sculpture but I named it something else and didn't mention that it was her design?

[Kanti]

Hmm the Mead sounds good but I'm not sure about the wine xD
I was never a fan of wine. I mean, I drink basically anything without much complaint but wine isn't pleasant to me.

I actually just found some hard cider recently and that stuff is my new favorite! It's actually refreshing which is surprising for me when it comes to alcohol. Its usually crummy tasting

[Tasha Mermaid]

Well you see, the argument was that Eric copied one of Raven's colorschemes in his tails and people said he "should know better" than to do that, well stuff along that nature. I don't mean for it to be lesser of an argument I just put the quotes because that's what they said xD
Sorry, I'm being paranoid.
Either way, once they said that we sort of said "well what if someone ordered the tail and they wanted those colors?" and stuff like that, but it ended up that people just said stuff like he copies so much? I sort of forgot, it was a long time ago, but we talked about "well at least you should credit people when they use their designs" and stuff and then we got to the "Mertailor stole a fluke design" where I brought in Mike's example.
Funny enough I never got a response for that which is annoying! Mike completely ripped it off but I mean, if he said he did that's okay? He didn't even do the work and is reaping the profits! Something far worse (imo) than what the Mertailor did! But again, that's my opinion, I was trying to see what everyone else thought about it.

What's worse? Copying something COMPLETELY, as if I bought a Merbella tail, copied the fluke RIGHT off the tail and sold it but said "oh it's a Merbella fluke" or if I copied a Merbella fluke that was my own sculpture but I named it something else and didn't mention that it was her design?



hmm that is a hard one, i mean everyone is entitled to ask for the colour scheme they think would suit them and a colour scheme on one style tail will look different on another ad unfortunately you will definitely come across your colour scheme atleast once because there really is not all that many to think up.

the last question really comes down to ethics and personal thoughts, (i hate this im libran i see both sides and it makes me indecisive lol) i think copying right off the tail would have to be worse imo purely because trying to hand sculp something to be the likes of something else will always be slightly different then the original, trying to replicate something from scratch is not easy and thus there is always a difference even if initially when you look at it that it may seem to be the same. Where as sculpting OFF the other would create and exact match and no longer be the work of the creator.

i give the example of drawing......lets say you have a lovely picture that you like so you sit it infront of you and draw it from looking at it, no matter how hard you try it will never be the exact replica of that picture making it in a way a whole new VERSION of the picture,
now take that some picture and put it under a piece of trace paper, when it comes out it will be exact as it is an exact copy drawn over the original, there will no longer be imperfections like eye shape or hair position or what not, it is initially the EXACT same picture (like a photocopy) the hard work of trying to make it look the same is no longer there.

[Tasha Mermaid]

Hmm the Mead sounds good but I'm not sure about the wine xD
I was never a fan of wine. I mean, I drink basically anything without much complaint but wine isn't pleasant to me.

I actually just found some hard cider recently and that stuff is my new favorite! It's actually refreshing which is surprising for me when it comes to alcohol. Its usually crummy tasting



hahaha im not a drinker, and not a fan of wine either, BUT i do like a few red wines (like very few) mainly i use it in my cooking so im actually fussy on how they should taste to compliment my dishes :)

[Whisper]

I don't really see much of a resemblance in the color pattern other than the fact that they are both based off a trout. One has extra fins, one does not. One has spots, one does not. The orange is at the end of one while the top of the fluke on the other. It looks like maybe he hadnt seen this tail before painting his and if he did, took great pains not to make it too similar. Also, I dont think merbellas trout tail has a dorsal fin. Im not defending anyone here, just pointing out my observations.

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/376614_415539855168767_855955031_n.jpg

http://www.themertailor.com/images/mertailor/gallery/21_Green_1.jpg

There are only so many color variations in trout coloring.... Just saying.

[Mermaid Cascada]

I really want to comment, but in a way I'm afraid to. lol

[MermaidBrittany]

You shouldn't be afraid to post anything :P

[Kanti]

xD yea you shouldn't be afraid to say what's on your mind, so long as you can explain yourself or give reasoning for why you think so.

[Kanti]

hmm that is a hard one, i mean everyone is entitled to ask for the colour scheme they think would suit them and a colour scheme on one style tail will look different on another ad unfortunately you will definitely come across your colour scheme atleast once because there really is not all that many to think up.

the last question really comes down to ethics and personal thoughts, (i hate this im libran i see both sides and it makes me indecisive lol) i think copying right off the tail would have to be worse imo purely because trying to hand sculp something to be the likes of something else will always be slightly different then the original, trying to replicate something from scratch is not easy and thus there is always a difference even if initially when you look at it that it may seem to be the same. Where as sculpting OFF the other would create and exact match and no longer be the work of the creator.

i give the example of drawing......lets say you have a lovely picture that you like so you sit it infront of you and draw it from looking at it, no matter how hard you try it will never be the exact replica of that picture making it in a way a whole new VERSION of the picture,
now take that some picture and put it under a piece of trace paper, when it comes out it will be exact as it is an exact copy drawn over the original, there will no longer be imperfections like eye shape or hair position or what not, it is initially the EXACT same picture (like a photocopy) the hard work of trying to make it look the same is no longer there.

Yea it is a bit iffy, but honestly I find that the only real thing that's considered bad about someone copying a fluke design is the fact that now they might be making money off something you designed. But I just find it completely weird because someone mentioned "if they gave credit" it would be okay. So isn't that completely selfish of the person?
I dunno maybe I just ceased to care and find it immature now. Not calling anyone immature, I just view it that way.
I just think, what's the point of caring so much about stuff that people may have already copied off me and I don't even know it yet? One day if I go across the internet and find someone who stole an idea of mine is everything suddenly ruined when they've already been copying it for 4+ years? What's the difference?

And to assume I'd never had anything stolen from me was also very wrong. I've had my hooved shoes idea recreated and when I sold horns over etsy a new hornmaker appeared and literally SEEMED to at least, copy all of the horns I had for sale, just made them a little different. But did I care? No.. Whatever, she's making horns in a slightly different way and some people may like her designs better than mine so they can buy from her! I just find it so worrysome and pointless to watch what everyone else is doing when you could just be working on your own stuff and making more things.

[Ariel-Starfish]

I never, ever (think) I replied in this tread before, I just read bits and parts of it (yes, bits and parts! becouse of some parts are WAY to long to read) and the only thing i can think of somethimes is : Where do you guys get all off the energy to KEEP going on and on? Seriously! this just gives me one big headache *sad*

Ok, lol I not may be the conversation type of girl :p But I have thoughts! lol

Now, i don't want to get anyone mad or getting offensive but this thing really cought my eye ;)

Well, see ya! *swims along*

[Mermaid Cascada]

Okay I'm gonna throw this out there... So um... correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Eric post the purple tail on Facebook saying it was for a costumer? And if it was then it was actually the costumer who "stole" Raven's paint job? I also don't see why some mers are so upset over it because it is not their paint job. And I personally think that the pictures of the tails that were posted really look different (in my opinion).

[Kanti]

I dunno who it was for, but I assume it was for a customer of some sort, especially since there's another tail right there next to it in the photo.
I can see the resemblance between the Mertailor and the Raven, but I guess I don't care much for colorscheme similarities between tailmakers because, like Nerine said, there are only so many color combinations before you basically end up repeating them. Not to mention, it could be based off a fish.

[MerEmma]

I know Raven's was. But to be honest, I didn't even think Eric's tail posted looked much like hers. I noticed it more so with these two, really.

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/562154_626392504045002_1725736018_n.jpg

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/603398_406863342703085_849656610_n.jpg

Eric's was created for a customer. Raven made one similar to hers for Doreen Virttue. It doesn't bother me really. Eric mentioned somewhere he would only make tails based off of someone else's with permission from the original tailmaker. Since Eric and Raven are friends, he probably did ask for permission, but I don't know this for a fact.

[Kanti]

Yea, in that tail it's a bit more obvious but eh, I'm not too worried when it comes to colorschemes really.
I mean, Eric and Raven both paint so differently that I think even when they're doing the same colorscheme they manage to make the tails look pretty different. Raven is very good at blending colors, so her colors are more natural looking and subtle whereas Eric's are a lot more vibrant and solid. It just depends on your style, honestly, I think they both do a great job at it.

[Mermaidmechanic]

Wow this sure ran rampant o_o ... Haha Kanti, I see that you were simply playing devils advocate in order to inspire a more intellectual debate. Perhaps you should choose opponents more in tune with your own thought process? :P Also, just wanted to mention that I thought saying that "you post primarily drama related" was a little harsh. Most of the posts I see from you are instructional in nature. I guess some people just have a hard time interpreting written word into an accurate representation of what the other person was meaning to say.

[Kanti]

Yea maybe you're right.
I was being a bit blunt at some points but really, I was just trying to be honest. I guess sometimes not everyone can deal with that gracefully.
I thought it was as well, but I think it was just an attempt to say something mean because my evaluation was interpreted as an insult, when (at least to me) it clearly wasn't.

[Mermaidmechanic]

People will be all people like and such, I suppose. So, here is an angry cat, because I think this thread needs one.

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk104/valjean_3/Catinwater.jpg

[Mermaid Kelda]

I might just add this photo here in regards to the colour scheme debate:
10510
That's a Merbellas tail, but it looks awfully like Eric's gold and turquoise one. I'm assuming it's for a client since it's tagged with a person's name.
Honestly, if a client wants to use one tail maker's colours but on another's base, I don't see an issue. Clearly it happens all the time.

[Kanti]

*gasp* !!
How could Raven degrade herself in such a way as to COPY SOMEONE'S COLORSCHEME!?
Oh ma gawwwwwd!
xD
I actually see the resemblance but it's a completely different style of coloring so it gives a unique look, just as Eric's recreation does. Customer probably asked for it and she did it. Sort of goes against the whole "don't copy someone's tail let's make your own" thing she posted before (in Iona's original post) but whatever, honestly. If the customer is paying you $1k then you should give them what they ask for.

[MerEmma]

I don't see much of a resemblance, but I suppose it is there.

[Elle]

I don't see much of a resemblance, but I suppose it is there.

It's just a similarity of colours used. But they both have different ways of applying the paint, so the look ends up being different.
There are only so many options out there things are gonna cross over eventually. and it's like Kanti said, if the customer asks for it - they're probably gonna say yes.

It's like they both do shell top, octo-tops, and the scale bras, and while there are similarities, really is it that hard to understand that more than one person thought one day "you know what, I think I'll make a mermaid top out of 2 shells" :) (But I think Raven does more accessories than Eric does)
They both have different ways of doing everything, so even if there are cross overs in ideas and colours, you end up with 2 different products in the end.

[Winged Mermaid]

Wow, I did not expect things to explode in this thread. Mother of Neptune O_O As for the green color scheme a few pages back, I honestly didn't think they looked that much alike at all. The placing of the colors was so different I didn't even realize anyone considered them the same. Also I know you posted the green and turqoise one, but she wasn't finished. Here's the finished one:

10528

Here's Eric's
10529

I don't know about you, but I don't think they look the same at all. They're not even the same color of gold or turquoise, and Raven's has many more colors (lots of earth tones) and different placing of said colors, including doing the rays in turquoise (on the fluke) to avoid filling in the negative space with it like on Eric's. Just sayin'.

[Kanti]

Hmm yea now that you post that one the turquoise color is actually a lot more of a blue than I thought.
I thought the colorscheme was very similar with some brown added for contrast but when you look further up the tail the brown actually blends into more of an "antique gold" sort of look and they actually look pretty different.
I guess you COULD still say they're similar with the whole blue/gold theme but c'mon, that's just nitpicking at that point xD

[Elle]

that's all it really is isn't it? Just nitpicking....
Unfortunately I don't think it's something that will ever die down. The whole argument goes back so far, and peoples experiences there will always be a fault.

I think they both have their merits and what you should end up choosing (if your buying your own tail) is what appeals most to your interest rather that this whole "person A copied person B, *outrage* how dare they"


In other news I'm irritating my partner by watching and rewatching Kanti's tutorial videos (I like to make notes). I enjoy them, and if he doesn't want to hear about Monster Clay, well he can go sit outside. :)

[Mermaid Kelda]

Haha I'm the same Elle. Ever since the video of the flukes was put up, I've been on there a multiple times ogling my fluke. It's going to get worse the further along she gets!

[AniaR]

And here it is... the giant wall of text from me :) I would have posted it sooner, but I drafted it a few times, got some insight from some other people, and had to do some other things first.

Dear Mernetwork fans, friends and members

I'm writing this letter after having a very enlightening talk with Iona, about privileged information. She helped me have a bit of a light bulb moment, an "a-ha" if you will. Currently, I seem to be at the centre of a lot of talk, debate, and drama. I'm known for diving head first into stuff. I have always felt like if I see something happening that I believe to be wrong or hurtful, that I need to do something about it. The problem is, when I do that on mernetwork, I don't often get to share the whole story/evidence, and I am most often speaking for someone else in addition to myself.

That causes what I post to be interpreted by some in the community as baiting. I can honestly sit here and say to you, I never thought that at the time. To me, baiting was always done obviously, and what I thought I was doing by leaving names out etc was the opposite. I didn't post things with the intention of getting a rise out of an individual, but rather alert the community to behaviour I felt they should know about as I personally felt the behaviour was detrimental to our community, while trying not to slander. However, Iona and I talked about how having that privileged inside information, (seeing emails, seeing screen shots, being told things first hand from the people involved etc) can come across as baiting and drama instigating, and I totally get that now. I think, this really comes down to people knowing I stood up when I had issues with my mertailor experience. I got stuff done about it, and it enabled other people who had issues to do something too. Ever since then a huge amount of the community has come to me when they have problems and I end up in the middle, defending mer against mer, and knowing far more than I should. If you doubt that look at comments on my FB page, my youtube page, so many people ask me to help them with an issue they have with someone else in the community. When the people who ask me are actual friends of mine, well it gets muddy. Think about what YOU'D do if a real life friends of yours came and asked for help dealing with an issue? Then add my complexes in about bullying and maybe you'll get where I'm coming from.

In reality, what should be happening, is people coming forward with their own issues and their own proof of those issues instead of relying on someone else in the community to do it. When I post something, even if I KNOW it to be true, it causes speculation, rumours, and clearly- drama. I've taught people how to screen shot, I've taught people how to see if a FB account is connected to another and being used as a sock puppet. They know how to do that, so if they want the mer-community to know what's going on with them- they can post that. IN my real life it's my JOB to advocate for people who can't advocate for themselves. When you do something 24/7 it can be hard to turn off.

I want to talk a bit about my tone and how I come across in the online world. I'm going to tell you something personal that some already know. This is not a sob sorry. It's not to excuse my behaviour. It's to give you context. Many people knew I grew up in an abusive household. My childhood and teen years were quite traumatic, and part of being raised be abusive people is a lack of understanding of boundaries. As we grow, we're supposed to learn how to firstly recognize our own boundaries and the boundaries of others, and how to respect them. I had to go to therapy as an adult to even learn how to put my own boundaries down. For many years saying no to someone, standing up to them, or letting them know I wasn't okay with something - those things were the most terrifying ideas on the planet. For many people like me once we finally get the power of putting boundaries down mastered, we go a little boundary happy. We alert everyone all the time when they're even coming close to crossing our boundaries. For me, some of the stuff I see in the community crosses a boundary, so I react instead of responding, and I get carried away. It digs deep. Even just typing this my brain is going crazy with all the things I KNOW are going on "behind the scenes" and I want to blurt out everything I know. This is a personal issue. Something I have been working on for a long time, and will obviously continue to work on. I've come very far when it comes to real life communication, but with the internet and the inability to convey tone etc, I still have a while to go. (Seriously, I've read books, I've done therapy, I've taken classes just to catch up to where a person my age should be). Not an excuse for you by any means, just a bit of context, and the validation that yes, I see what you're getting at, and yes, I'm working on it.

Something else I need to work on, that yeah, I honestly didn't recognize at first- is going directly to the drama thread with anything I have to post that others may see as "controversial". In the past I've always sort of left that decision up to the admins (based on my interpretation of past conversations with one of them), and I see how people see that as "stirring up drama" now. That's why I would always put those disclaimers at the top. I see the community prefers everything just go directly there instead. So that's what I'll do.

I'm not going to take everything negative people say about me, and "fix" it about myself. The boundary thing, yes, something I need to work on. The privileged information thing? Totally something I will work on from now on along with posting in the appropriate places. But if you're hoping for a big "you were right, I was wrong, I'm going to totally change" post, this isn't it. In my very core, the things I see happening in our very small community are NOT okay, and I know if something isn't done, or someone doesn't say something... it's going to get worse. For now, I don't know what needs to be done, or what even needs to be said, except that many people don't like the direction we're taking. It seems to be a whole lot of dancing around it and walking on eggshells.

On the topic of current drama involving me, I'm not gonna sit here and defend every point people make against me. (If you have an issue, email me) I don't say things that I don't believe or know to be true. I know what I know, I've seen what I seen, I appreciate if you don't have the same opinions or thoughts as me because you haven't seen what I've seen or experienced what I've experienced. That being said, people can always email me if they'd like to talk about something I've said that seems fishy to them. If the thing specifically involves only me, I'd be happy to provide my own proof for things (like being contacted by the Oceanirum in Hawaii [ which I called an aquarium because I thought the words were interchangeable, Like I explained in the original thread], I have all the emails still and they've been forwarded to many mernetwork members since I was accused of lying about it- Happy to forward those to you Cor if you send me your email). That being said, when stuff involves other people, I encourage you to just come right out and ask them instead. I shouldn't be answering for other people, and they shouldn't expect me to either. Too often it's misinterpreted. Or we post a thread with our suspicions instead of going directly to the people first. I am guilty of that too. (though I always have something behind the scenes that has prompted me in the first place) In addition, if people need help dealing with cyberharassment etc, instead of running to me, read the thread I posted for help on managing and reporting it here: http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?4772-How-to-Manage-Cyber-Stalking-Harassment

A few points of wisdom certain people may not know. When you put a person's email in FB search, it comes up with any and all accounts associated with that email. This works for the emails they have listed on their FB contact, or emails they have posted on their mernetwork profile, or mermaid websites. That is one very easy way to detect someone creating sock puppet accounts in order to harass someone else. In addition, copying word for word what you say on one account, and posting it using another account. Also, when someone creates a fanpage for the purposes of harassment (or anything really) two clicks show you the person who created said fanpage. This is what I saw. This is what others saw. I completely appreciate and agree with any upset customers right now with fishbutts. I think that's their right. I just disagree with this behaviour from members in the community. It's up to fishbutts if they feel like sharing their screen shots and evidence though, not me. I got myself involved not to defend their services (again, never did that anywhere- how could I, I've never bought anything from them), simply because I have dealt with the exact same issues from similar people in the community, and because of it I have learned exactly how to document these things and press charges. It's VERY sad that this is what the community has become. People nit-picking against each other, gaslighting older issues, competitors harassing each other, and a constant need to either one-up or under-mind each other. We use each other's resources and then turn around and bite the hand that feeds. This community is still so small, and yet look at all the bridges burned already?

The recent drama talk on the forum made me want to completely leave it for a while. I felt a little thrown under the bus honestly. There were certain people I was 100% prepared to hear negative things from given our history and experiences together, and then some of you really shocked and confused me. I don't ever want people to have to feel the need to pick sides and I work hard not to put people in that position- I NEVER ask that of people, I even go out of my way to PM people when we disagree to let them know. When there is community drama I don't rally people to fight on my behalf etc, but it was frustrating to see people who email me for help all the time, use my tutorials and sing my praises on other websites/account, jumping on board here. If you don't like me, that's cool. You don't have to. I find most people either love me or hate me- I seem to have one of those personalities. but don't pretend to support me on one site (like deviantART) and then bash the exact traits you were supporting here. We don't have to be friends (how many times do you all groan when someone suggests that?) or like each other. But at the end of the day, I have poured a huge amount of time and effort for free into this community, and into mernetwork. You don't have to like who I am but I hope you can at least appreciate what I've brought to the table. While I've been vocal in drama cases (I've been around for the majority of the history between just about everyone), I have almost 4000 posts on mernetwork, the majority of which are resources for the community with a lot of hard work and thought put into them. I've brought a huge amount of members to the site personally. That being said, a surprising number of you contacted me to let me know the voices of few didn't represent you, and I appreciate that. I didn't read anything off the forum since my last post until very recently and I appreciate people trying to stick up for me even at personal cost. I didn't expect it.

So no, I'm not gonna run off the forum and cry because people said things I didn't like, or I don't agree with admin choices, and then bash the forum all over facebook. I'm going to keep posting my information, sharing my resources, celebrating with other mers, and I'll work harder on those things I said I would. I'm not going to try to prove to people I'm a good person, that I have good intentions, or "win them over" to my "side." It's not a war, it doesn't have to be about sides. It doesn't really matter what anyone says to someone who has their mind made up. I am who I am. I'm going to work on my own stuff to be a better member, but at the end of the day I'm still going to address things I think are ruining the community for everyone. Someone else doesn't get to tell me who I am, what's important to me, why I do things, or my intentions. I decide those things. So take it or leave it, I'm still here! :)

:bulldozer:

[Kanti]

Alright I'm going to pick this apart in points that I will number because I honestly expect a proper explanation for each one or I believe it's fair to assume you don't have an answer to them. Not being rude, just trying to get this argument down to back and forward easier since there is so much stuff. Also I will be using quotation marks a lot, not to demean anything you say but just to quote exactly what you said.
Alright let's begin:



I'm writing this letter after having a very enlightening talk with Iona, about privileged information. She helped me have a bit of a light bulb moment, an "a-ha" if you will. Currently, I seem to be at the centre of a lot of talk, debate, and drama. I'm known for diving head first into stuff. I have always felt like if I see something happening that I believe to be wrong or hurtful, that I need to do something about it. The problem is, when I do that on mernetwork, I don't often get to share the whole story/evidence, and I am most often speaking for someone else in addition to myself.
1. You're only the center of talk because you put yourself there. A few people on the forums clearly have had less than pleasant experiences with you, hence the fact that they came out to say so. And that's fine, you should tell the entire story.



That causes what I post to be interpreted by some in the community as baiting. I can honestly sit here and say to you, I never thought that at the time. To me, baiting was always done obviously, and what I thought I was doing by leaving names out etc was the opposite. I didn't post things with the intention of getting a rise out of an individual, but rather alert the community to behaviour I felt they should know about as I personally felt the behaviour was detrimental to our community, while trying not to slander. However, Iona and I talked about how having that privileged inside information, (seeing emails, seeing screen shots, being told things first hand from the people involved etc) can come across as baiting and drama instigating, and I totally get that now.
2. It is baiting. There is absolutely no excuse or mistaking it. The thing you said about "someone's making fake accounts to make comments on Stevi's wall how immature of them! And a huge waste of time [insert smiley]" was completely uncalled for. Not only did you have no proof and fail to present any, but RIGHT when your target (Ayla I'm assuming) responded you jumped to conclusions, saying SHE herself had fake accounts and then went on a completely dramatic rant about how she "had no life" or something.

3. BUT if that is true, please address that issue right now. Show us the proof for the false accounts supposedly made by her, as you said you had video of that. If not, I will assume it was false.

4. Also, if you REALLY cared about getting information about "behavior that is detrimental to our community" then you should have gone straight to the drama post and said names CLEARLY like we did for you. Not hide around a vague post that's somewhat calling someone out but doing it in a manner that's passive agressive instead of being brave enough to just come out and say so.



I think, this really comes down to people knowing I stood up when I had issues with my mertailor experience. I got stuff done about it, and it enabled other people who had issues to do something too. Ever since then a huge amount of the community has come to me when they have problems and I end up in the middle, defending mer against mer, and knowing far more than I should. If you doubt that look at comments on my FB page, my youtube page, so many people ask me to help them with an issue they have with someone else in the community. When the people who ask me are actual friends of mine, well it gets muddy. Think about what YOU'D do if a real life friends of yours came and asked for help dealing with an issue? Then add my complexes in about bullying and maybe you'll get where I'm coming from.
5. You didn't "stand up" when you had issues with your Mertailor, you continuously harassed Eric after your problem was already fixed for free, I assume, by Raven. You posted a review which is fine, people should see what can happen with their tails, but you obsessively made a point to keep on badmouthing the Mertailor. We get it, he messed up your tail, he messes up lots of people's tails, and they're not fortunate enough to get someone to fix it for them, so you're not exactly entitled to complain about it anymore.

6. You're not in the middleground, and that's fine. The main problem is you pretend you are when you are so clearly biased. Just as you pretended to be in the whole Fishbutts fiasco. You PIT PEOPLE against each other who weren't even doing anything wrong. Melu was asking a question, regardless of whether YOU think that was uncalled for it is none of your business. Stevi runs her own business and you have no right to tell someone they can't buy a tail ouside the tailmaker they're supposedly affiliated with. You caused trouble and acted dispicably. Completely one sided and completely rude and bully tactics.



In reality, what should be happening, is people coming forward with their own issues and their own proof of those issues instead of relying on someone else in the community to do it. When I post something, even if I KNOW it to be true, it causes speculation, rumours, and clearly- drama. I've taught people how to screen shot, I've taught people how to see if a FB account is connected to another and being used as a sock puppet. They know how to do that, so if they want the mer-community to know what's going on with them- they can post that. IN my real life it's my JOB to advocate for people who can't advocate for themselves. When you do something 24/7 it can be hard to turn off.
7. Please refer to #3. If you REALLY believe this, then when you had the issue of "someone's making fake accounts to post on Stevi's wall" you should have gone to the drama thread and posted your proof. You didn't, arguably because you had none, but I'd like to see it so please show us the proof you have to have made such a claim.



I want to talk a bit about my tone and how I come across in the online world. I'm going to tell you something personal that some already know. This is not a sob sorry. It's not to excuse my behaviour. It's to give you context. Many people knew I grew up in an abusive household. My childhood and teen years were quite traumatic, and part of being raised be abusive people is a lack of understanding of boundaries. As we grow, we're supposed to learn how to firstly recognize our own boundaries and the boundaries of others, and how to respect them. I had to go to therapy as an adult to even learn how to put my own boundaries down. For many years saying no to someone, standing up to them, or letting them know I wasn't okay with something - those things were the most terrifying ideas on the planet. For many people like me once we finally get the power of putting boundaries down mastered, we go a little boundary happy. We alert everyone all the time when they're even coming close to crossing our boundaries. For me, some of the stuff I see in the community crosses a boundary, so I react instead of responding, and I get carried away. It digs deep. Even just typing this my brain is going crazy with all the things I KNOW are going on "behind the scenes" and I want to blurt out everything I know. This is a personal issue. Something I have been working on for a long time, and will obviously continue to work on. I've come very far when it comes to real life communication, but with the internet and the inability to convey tone etc, I still have a while to go. (Seriously, I've read books, I've done therapy, I've taken classes just to catch up to where a person my age should be). Not an excuse for you by any means, just a bit of context, and the validation that yes, I see what you're getting at, and yes, I'm working on it.
8. Honestly I admit I got a bit lost at this point, but I assume you're referring to the fact that you want to tell people what's going on "behind the scenes" and you should and can. That's what the drama thread is for. And if people don't want to hear it or see it they don't have to read it, and for those who are at fault they can respond freely and in an open environment to defend themself instead of being passive agressive about it.



Something else I need to work on, that yeah, I honestly didn't recognize at first- is going directly to the drama thread with anything I have to post that others may see as "controversial". In the past I've always sort of left that decision up to the admins (based on my interpretation of past conversations with one of them), and I see how people see that as "stirring up drama" now. That's why I would always put those disclaimers at the top. I see the community prefers everything just go directly there instead. So that's what I'll do.
9. Yep. A lot of the problems could be solved if instead of being passive agressive or trying to sneak something into a normal thread, you just go to the drama thread and post whatever you think. And it's not really "controversial" stuff it's anything that points criticism at someone or something. If you have ANYTHING to say that could be interpreted as negative about someone else, then post it in the drama thread. And it's not "people seeing it as stirring up drama" it is stirring up drama. Especially if you're talking about another person.




I'm not going to take everything negative people say about me, and "fix" it about myself. The boundary thing, yes, something I need to work on. The privileged information thing? Totally something I will work on from now on along with posting in the appropriate places.
10. "Im not going to take everything negative people say about me and "fix" it about myself" then do you like the negative things? If someone generally says "Kanti you're rude" and I choose not to fix it then I either A. don't believe I'm actually rude or B. don't care about being rude. If someone points out a negative aspect about you, it's not always an insult, it may be to better yourself. Just like you don't apologize for being so rude to Melu, you're saying "I know I was out of line but I don't care" that's you being too proud to apologize and admit you were wrong.



But if you're hoping for a big "you were right, I was wrong, I'm going to totally change" post, this isn't it. In my very core, the things I see happening in our very small community are NOT okay, and I know if something isn't done, or someone doesn't say something... it's going to get worse. For now, I don't know what needs to be done, or what even needs to be said, except that many people don't like the direction we're taking. It seems to be a whole lot of dancing around it and walking on eggshells.
11. If you were hoping for a "you're right and I was wrong I'm going to change post then this isn't it" okay so then I guess it's safe to assume you actually believe you haven't done anything wrong? Everything you said above was basically disproved using your own words/logic so at this point it actually seems like more of a "I'm too proud to ever admit I was wrong and I don't care that I have negative qualities" sort of thing.
I mean, you might have some legit reason for it, I guess we will find out when you respond to everything I've said.



On the topic of current drama involving me, I'm not gonna sit here and defend every point people make against me. (If you have an issue, email me) I don't say things that I don't believe or know to be true.
12. No, how about you answer them here? You're not going to address every point because you have no legitimate reason for how you acted. We are all being very honest about everything, if you really think we're wrong, you have to address it or else we will assume that we are right, and as of now I assume we are since you aren't addressing any of the problems. This is the drama thread, the whole point is to be open about everything. By trying to shift it to email you're trying to be secretive which isn't good.




I know what I know, I've seen what I seen, I appreciate if you don't have the same opinions or thoughts as me because you haven't seen what I've seen or experienced what I've experienced. That being said, people can always email me if they'd like to talk about something I've said that seems fishy to them. If the thing specifically involves only me, I'd be happy to provide my own proof for things (like being contacted by the Oceanirum in Hawaii [ which I called an aquarium because I thought the words were interchangeable, Like I explained in the original thread], I have all the emails still and they've been forwarded to many mernetwork members since I was accused of lying about it- Happy to forward those to you Cor if you send me your email). That being said, when stuff involves other people, I encourage you to just come right out and ask them instead. I shouldn't be answering for other people, and they shouldn't expect me to either. Too often it's misinterpreted. Or we post a thread with our suspicions instead of going directly to the people first. I am guilty of that too. (though I always have something behind the scenes that has prompted me in the first place) In addition, if people need help dealing with cyberharassment etc, instead of running to me, read the thread I posted for help on managing and reporting it here: http://mernetwork.com/index/showthre...ing-Harassment
13. I don't want to email you, Raina, and if we do email I will just post your responses on this forum so everyone can see it. The whole secretive thing is not cutting it. If you have to email in order to discuss things and address issues when there's an entire forum dedicated to it, you're not being honest. I don't see why you're alright with emailing and not with responding on here? It's very fishy and doesn't seem to have a reasoning to it aside from the fact people will be able to see what you said



A few points of wisdom certain people may not know. When you put a person's email in FB search, it comes up with any and all accounts associated with that email. This works for the emails they have listed on their FB contact, or emails they have posted on their mernetwork profile, or mermaid websites. That is one very easy way to detect someone creating sock puppet accounts in order to harass someone else. In addition, copying word for word what you say on one account, and posting it using another account. Also, when someone creates a fanpage for the purposes of harassment (or anything really) two clicks show you the person who created said fanpage. This is what I saw. This is what others saw. I completely appreciate and agree with any upset customers right now with fishbutts. I think that's their right. I just disagree with this behaviour from members in the community. It's up to fishbutts if they feel like sharing their screen shots and evidence though, not me. I got myself involved not to defend their services (again, never did that anywhere- how could I, I've never bought anything from them), simply because I have dealt with the exact same issues from similar people in the community, and because of it I have learned exactly how to document these things and press charges.
14. Well actually that is completely false (as FB allows you to make your emails private and unsearchable via settings, hell you can even make your name unsearchable) . But I mean, if you have proof please present it. So again respond to the "proof issue" and provide your proof.



It's VERY sad that this is what the community has become. People nit-picking against each other, gaslighting older issues, competitors harassing each other, and a constant need to either one-up or under-mind each other. We use each other's resources and then turn around and bite the hand that feeds. This community is still so small, and yet look at all the bridges burned already?
15. Sorry but I don't think you're one to talk as you've only just recently stopped criticizing the Mertailor for messing up your tail. You also nitpicked against Melu for asking a question you didn't like on a facebook page you didn't own. So I mean, this seems like a very ironic thing for you to say.



The recent drama talk on the forum made me want to completely leave it for a while. I felt a little thrown under the bus honestly. There were certain people I was 100% prepared to hear negative things from given our history and experiences together, and then some of you really shocked and confused me. I don't ever want people to have to feel the need to pick sides and I work hard not to put people in that position- I NEVER ask that of people, I even go out of my way to PM people when we disagree to let them know.
16. Again, false, you expected Melu to "pick sides" and only order a ShadowFancy tail so that sort of throws everything you just said out the window.




When there is community drama I don't rally people to fight on my behalf etc, but it was frustrating to see people who email me for help all the time, use my tutorials and sing my praises on other websites/account, jumping on board here. If you don't like me, that's cool. You don't have to. I find most people either love me or hate me- I seem to have one of those personalities. but don't pretend to support me on one site (like deviantART) and then bash the exact traits you were supporting here. We don't have to be friends (how many times do you all groan when someone suggests that?) or like each other. But at the end of the day, I have poured a huge amount of time and effort for free into this community, and into mernetwork. You don't have to like who I am but I hope you can at least appreciate what I've brought to the table. While I've been vocal in drama cases (I've been around for the majority of the history between just about everyone), I have almost 4000 posts on mernetwork, the majority of which are resources for the community with a lot of hard work and thought put into them. I've brought a huge amount of members to the site personally. That being said, a surprising number of you contacted me to let me know the voices of few didn't represent you, and I appreciate that. I didn't read anything off the forum since my last post until very recently and I appreciate people trying to stick up for me even at personal cost. I didn't expect it.
17. Same here. And I'm not even being mean, I'm just trying to get some honesty/change for the better out of you.




So no, I'm not gonna run off the forum and cry because people said things I didn't like, or I don't agree with admin choices, and then bash the forum all over facebook. I'm going to keep posting my information, sharing my resources, celebrating with other mers, and I'll work harder on those things I said I would. I'm not going to try to prove to people I'm a good person, that I have good intentions, or "win them over" to my "side." It's not a war, it doesn't have to be about sides. It doesn't really matter what anyone says to someone who has their mind made up. I am who I am. I'm going to work on my own stuff to be a better member, but at the end of the day I'm still going to address things I think are ruining the community for everyone. Someone else doesn't get to tell me who I am, what's important to me, why I do things, or my intentions. I decide those things. So take it or leave it, I'm still here!
18. "I'm not going to prove to people that I'm a good person" Then what in the world was the purpose of this post? If you honestly didn't care about whether or not people thought you were a good person you wouldn't have dedicated the time to write out this entire thing? You even said you had to draft it a few times so I assume you spent an hour or so typing it... If you didn't care to prove anything then the only other thing I can think of is that you only posted it in an attempt to defend yourself and your behavior.

If you respond to this, please address the numbers individually.

[NerineArcticMermaid]

Kanti give it a rest. No one cares about your picking things apart and "needing" it explaided. If they wanted to explain they would do it in the first plac.

[Kanti]

Nerine no one made you read it.
So if you don't want to, kindly stay out of the drama thread.

It seems the only people who are tired of my explanations are the ones who have points that need criticism.

[Kanti]

Also can you please block me if you don't like what I say?
I'm tired of being expected to be quiet just for one person who's annoyed with me for some reason.
At this point you're being rude for something you can simply block me for and essentially chasing me around to harass me and try to limit my freedom of speech. I'm going to warn you, please, leave me alone if you don't like what I say, and you should probably stay out of the drama thread.

[NerineArcticMermaid]

Didn't read it. Raina explained herself plenty. She shouldnt have to. Just because you think its criticism and needed does not make it so. If you can't act like a grwon up and use your mouth filter in your responseson the internet then maybe you are too immature to handle being on the internet.

Also. If everyone that really is fed u o with you....actually ignored you. I bet this forum would be really lonely.

[NerineArcticMermaid]

I do not have to stay out of anywhere when you attack a personal friend.

[Kanti]

Hmm so you admit that you didn't even read my points you just responded in order to defend a friend? Not only that but you assume I am "attacking" her? How very silly. If you didn't read it.. then... how do you know I'm attacking anyone?

Also you're getting emotional and now lying blatantly yet again.


Also. If everyone that really is fed u o with you....actually ignored you. I bet this forum would be really lonely.

Really? Like who? Well you don't even have to name anyone because saying EVERYONE is fed up with me is a complete lie. I can probably assume around 3-4 people are but that's simply because they get emotional about arguments rather than applying logic and reason. And honestly, I don't care what those people think, I will continue to post what I think and if you don't like it, don't read it. If you read it and get upset that's your problem.

[NerineArcticMermaid]

See .. your reputation preceeds you. I read the first paragraph. Didn't need more. Yes you are attscking her. She explained het self quite well. Hut yet you feel the need to "stir the pot" as my mother would say.

I did not say everyone. I said specifically everyone who is fed up with your drama. That doesnt mean the entire forum. That means those who are fed up. You really need to do something about your selective reading problem

[Kanti]

Haha whoops you are right I did misread that part. Still, no reason to be rude to me over that. I make mistakes too.
But even so, I'm sure the only people who are annoyed with me are the ones who get criticized and take it personally. If they actually have a legitimate reason I welcome them to address it. If I am at fault I will be more than happy to apologize.

And alright if I'm so full of it then why don't you disprove what I said?
Where am I "attacking her"? Did I call her names? Did I make fun of her?
So far the only person who's ever attacked anyone has been you over something you got emotional about!
You called me names, which is against the rules of this forum. Maybe you're the one who's attacking. Even now you're making up stuff to try and hurt my feelings. If you have a problem with what I said, list the number and respond to it. If not, I'll assume you're just angry for no legitimate reason and that I shouldn't care.

[NerineArcticMermaid]

Never called you a name. Called into question your actions. Big difference. I do not lie nor do I make up things. I'm 34 yrs old lies are the actions of a child.

I do not have explain anything to you. Nor should anyone else.

The way you nit pick everyones replies is a form of personal attsck. You do the very thing you have accused others of doing.

[Kanti]

LET ME MAKE THIS PERFECTLY CLEAR. I AM FOR EQUAL RIGHT. sCREW YOU FOR EVEN BRINGING UP MY BELEIF WHEN THAT HAD NOTHIGN TO DO WITH THE ART THEFT CONVERSATION. THAT IS UNCALLED FOR AND PRETTY DAMN RIGHT CRAP OF YOU.

I believe you forgot about this, which pretty much falls under the "don'ts" of this thread and was pretty much an attack that had zero founding.


BUT KEEP TO THE RULES. BE RESPECTFUL AND CIVIL. NO MALICIOUS AND NASTY REMARKS. NO NAME CALLING.



I do not have explain anything to you. Nor should anyone else.
If you can't explain yourself then you must not have a very good or any reasoning.
Just like a manager "Boss, why don't we do this instead of that? It's a lot smarter because of X, Y and Z"
"I don't have to explain my reasoning to you just do it"
If you can't explain yourself, you're going by the "because I said so" rule, which is childish and illogical.


The way you nit pick everyones replies is a form of personal attsck. You do the very thing you have accused others of doing.
Uhh.. How?
It's showing them that they're wrong not personally attacking them...
Again, only people who attach emotion to argument would think it was an attack.

[lasserine]

Nerine, it looks like to me, you are attacking Kanti. So nerine, you are only going to Raina's defense, because she is a personal friend, and not read how Kanti explained herself very well?

Raina does like to bait people, and then sits back, and plays the "oh poor me"

Myself personally, I do agree with most of what Kanti said.

[Thalassa]

Oh, geez. Here we go again...

[Kanti]

Thanks, Lasserine.
I thought I addressed all of Raina's topics in her post very thoroughly without being rude. I was being honest but nowhere did I make fun of her or put her down. Truth hurts, sorry, that's life. But this is far from a personal attack.

[Thalassa]

Question, because I've never gotten annoyed enough to actually block anyone, but it might be handy info...what does blocking a person actually do? Does it just block them from your profile, or does it keep you from seeing their posts...or what?

[Kanti]

*shrug*
I've never done it before.
I assume it blocks your posts, Raina said she had blocked Chris once and couldn't see his posts.

[SeaGlass Siren]

It's an option to view their posts after youve blocked them.

[Mermaid Kelda]

I'd just like to say that Kanti has ALWAYS explained herself very well. I have never seen her make an unfounded statement, or said anything to purposefully hurt anyone. I feel like some people just don't have the presence of mind to understand what she is saying. She only ever "nitpicks" when she has something constructive to say, or when she disagrees with something said. And that's fair enough! If you don't agree with the things she says, then perhaps you should calmly offer your opinion on why/what/etc. Kanti's a valuable member of the community; if for no other reason, it's because she helps people do what they love, i.e. mermaiding.

Honestly it makes me sick how much you hate on her, Nerine. It is FAIR ENOUGH to call someone out when you disagree with what they do/say, which is what Kanti is doing here. It's also what you're doing, except you aren't doing it with good reason, or with any real explanation. People have every right to speak their mind in here, but if you want to be respected as an intellectual, mature human being, please do it calmly and with the patience to explain your reasoning.
Why can't we see an intellectual discussion here? You and Kanti have different points of views on lots of issues (eg the artwork copyright thing) so it'd be awesome if you discussed the ifs and whys of issues like that, exploring each other's points of view and maybe taking something away from the discussion other than a sour taste in your mouth. For example, what kind of work can realistically be copyrighted? How different does something have to be from an original creation to not be considered "copying"? It's not actually against the law to copy an artwork, for example, if it's deemed to be different enough in that it's "inspired" by the original, but still creatively the artist's own. Heck, I'd be willing to get involved in a philosophical discussion about this stuff, and I usually don't discuss my opinions! (I'm a coward like that, haha xD)

I don't want to just say "why can't we get along" because some people just aren't compatible. But the least everyone can do is talk calmly to one another and explain their concerns or thoughts, and actually listen when the other person explains their own thoughts. Then everyone will at least be on the same page.

[Mermaid Lorelei]

12. No, how about you answer them here? You're not going to address every point because you have no legitimate reason for how you acted. We are all being very honest about everything, if you really think we're wrong, you have to address it or else we will assume that we are right, and as of now I assume we are since you aren't addressing any of the problems. This is the drama thread, the whole point is to be open about everything. By trying to shift it to email you're trying to be secretive which isn't good.

I have to admit that I disagree with you Kanti. To automatically assume that she has no legitimate information simply because she has not posted it is incorrect. There can be many more reasons for her not posting specific information, besides simply the idea that she does not actually have the information. For instance, she mentioned having personal information from people that she cannot repost. People take her into confidence, so she won't go into specifics. This doesn't mean she can't post about an issue. Perhaps she simply can't go into the background information but she wanted to alert people about an issue.

I really don't want to get into this thread and I probably won't be checking back in. This point of yours simply bothered me.

[Ayla of Duluth]

I feel like jumping in here and putting it in the record that I have no other account than my mermaid Ayla Facebook page. I have no fake accounts. My account here is Ayla of Duluth. My mermaid account on Facebook is Mermaid Ayla. And of course I have my personal account that I only use to keep track of friends from school. I figured I should clear that up since it was thrown out there in the first place. I have no issues with anyone here where I would go seeking a fight or stirring up random crap.

Also I personally feel like kanti is doing what I actually used to do when I was younger. That is, take someone's argument, pick sentences or points out of it and counter each individual one instead of addressing the argument as a whole. Things like apologies or opinions would turn into arguments that would upset many people. This is just what I personally see kanti doing. Honestly it's kind of annoying at this point, it's a bit overbearing. That's the only issue I have here. Just wanted to get that off my chest.

[Kanti]

You could be right, Lorelei
Maybe I jumped to conclusions in assuming I knew and you're right, there are definitely some reasons I didn't think about. But I'd like to see what the reasoning behind it is because we're all being pretty honest, no one is being mean or abusive or bully-ish. I don't think anyone is picking on anyone we're just being truthful and putting what we think out there. I think if someone disagrees they should have every right to say it publicly without having to worry about things getting nasty just because you don't agree.

But either way, you're right. I should have asked what the reasoning behind wanting to email it was.

[Kanti]

I feel like jumping in here and putting it in the record that I have no other account than my mermaid Ayla Facebook page. I have no fake accounts. My account here is Ayla of Duluth. My mermaid account on Facebook is Mermaid Ayla. And of course I have my personal account that I only use to keep track of friends from school. I figured I should clear that up since it was thrown out there in the first place. I have no issues with anyone here where I would go seeking a fight or stirring up random crap.

Also I personally feel like kanti is doing what I actually used to do when I was younger. That is, take someone's argument, pick sentences or points out of it and counter each individual one instead of addressing the argument as a whole. Things like apologies or opinions would turn into arguments that would upset many people. This is just what I personally see kanti doing. Honestly it's kind of annoying at this point, it's a bit overbearing. That's the only issue I have here. Just wanted to get that off my chest.

You did just that to me earlier, Ayla o_o
When I had to explain to you the reasoning behind how the gay marriage argument/example related to the art copyright laws?
You and Adella only quoted a very specific part of my explanation and said you didn't understand when if you read the entire thing there was a clear explanation! When I break things apart I include/respond to the entire argument. I only break them up to make responding easier as sometimes things are lost and forgotten throughout an argument.

[Kanti]

http://mernetwork.com/index/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Kanti http://mernetwork.com/index/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?p=64926#post64926)

Nerine said "Art theft is AGAINST THE LAW so it is wrong"
To which I retorted with "Well homosexual marriage is against the law, so I guess the law dictates with perfect accuracy what is right?"


wait a minute. I'm just going to point out that just because art theft is against the law and is wrong, you can't simply compare that to homosexual marriage. the two are completely unrelated. That's like saying broccoli is healthy, so chocolate must be healthy too. They're entirely unrelated, and the way one law is interpreted has no effect on a completely separate issue. You're comparing apples to oranges. We're talking about intellectual property, not gay marriage.

ACTUAL POST

It was relevant.

Nerine said "Art theft is AGAINST THE LAW so it is wrong"
To which I retorted with "Well homosexual marriage is against the law, so I guess the law dictates with perfect accuracy what is right?"

It was basically taking logic A that was thrown at me and saying "well according to logic A, you must also believe statment B because it follows logic A."

It's a VERY SIMPLE thing to follow.

Let me even re-write it to an If,then statement to avoid confusion:

"If art theft is against the law, then it is wrong"
BY THAT LOGIC
"If homosexual marriage is against the law, then it is wrong"


You can clearly see how if you had quoted/responded to the ENTIRE argument instead of just a section, you wouldn't have gotten far because the explanation is right there, which I ended up having to repeat for you.

[Ayla of Duluth]

I know Kanti, that was my mistake. I had been reading all through the drama thread and as I got up to that post, I was in that half zoned out phase where you're reading stuff and then you have to go back and re-read it because you were actually thinking about what to make for dinner instead of focusing on the words you're seeing.

[Kanti]

But yea, Melaina I get what you're saying.
I want people to get along but I don't want them to not be able to talk to each other frankly.
If someone says I'm rude or being rude I won't get offended I'll ask why and expect an honest evaluation of why they think I'm rude, and that's fine. Friends should be able to be honest without worrying about the other friend freaking out over nothing.

If anyone has a right to be mad it's me and I'm not. People have been accusing me of false things and just generally being rude and biased to the things I say without even reading them first! It's ridiculous! Yet I am nothing but polite and calm? If anyone deserves to call someone a jerk it's me and I'm not, so I don't see how anyone can have an excuse for it!
I understand I'm voluntarily responding to the drama thread too, so that's another reason. People coming in here and being surprised there's drama is getting old fast. It says drama on the thread, if you don't want to partake, don't. But when you post something in here, you're going to get a response if it's not agreed with. So if you can't handle that, don't post or read the things in here.

[Kanti]

I know Kanti, that was my mistake. I had been reading all through the drama thread and as I got up to that post, I was in that half zoned out phase where you're reading stuff and then you have to go back and re-read it because you were actually thinking about what to make for dinner instead of focusing on the words you're seeing.

That's understandable but then don't say something so mean as what you just did without having some legitimacy to it.
You literally just compared me to yourself as a little kid and said I was picking apart arguments when I was doing no such thing. Before you respond to something, especially in the drama thread where you can actually hurt someone's feelings, don't just SAY something without actually putting thought behind it.

I'm not mad at you but you guys are hurting my feelings. It's like you don't even put thought into what you say or you think I'm some emotionless robot or something?

[Winged Mermaid]

Warning, wall of text. But what I feel is very important wall of text for the community.


I have to admit that I disagree with you Kanti. To automatically assume that she has no legitimate information simply because she has not posted it is incorrect. There can be many more reasons for her not posting specific information, besides simply the idea that she does not actually have the information. For instance, she mentioned having personal information from people that she cannot repost. People take her into confidence, so she won't go into specifics. This doesn't mean she can't post about an issue. Perhaps she simply can't go into the background information but she wanted to alert people about an issue.

I really don't want to get into this thread and I probably won't be checking back in. This point of yours simply bothered me.

This precisely. Raina was trying to explain that the most of the time she has information that is privileged information/confidential information because a lot people come to her with their problems or community issues. She can not speak specifics because it is not her place to do so, so she speaks without names and generally. She does so because she believes it's a valid and/or concerning issue that people need to be aware of. She's also noted before that she does not want to create drama for a specific person, she just wanted people to be aware of a community issue. However speaking OF the issue without that direct specific information can seem like she's baiting or spreading rumors when that's not the case, and she didn't realize she came off that way. Then she talked about how she will be working on that now that she knows that's the issue. Then she said the heart of the issue is that people expect people like her to speak FOR them instead of posting it themselves.

She mentioned talking to me. I saw a valid side to Kanti's previous argument with Raina about baiting. I didn't see it at the time, but I kept an open mind, and in my forum clean up I came across many threads and I realized there was indeed truth to it. The answer came to me that that (above paragraph) was the issue, so I spoke to her about it. She told me she never saw it that way before, but that I was right. Therefore in a way acknowledging that Kanti was right aw well. I came to this realization of Raina because I too am privileged to a lot of information that people confide in me, that I have no right to repost myself. At the same time I now know of a lot of legitimate, sometimes serious, issues within the community that I can not tell anyone about. If I try and post a general statements without names and specifics it can come across as starting or (to some people who know nothing of the situation) even inventing drama, when the reality is that it is all real and valid.

The point is that she CAN'T post the whole story. I mean what if 5 people came to you about a situation and spilled their guts in confidence and you turned right around and aired it for a whole community to see without their permission and even against their wishes? That would not be right at all. Now imagine you were one of those 5 people- you would feel betrayed and be very angry and hurt. I've been in this situation before. The problem is that this community is so full of this, this underground information that no one is willing to speak up. Then the ones that can't take it, that think that it is morally right that people know this important information, are targeted as people who stir the drama. All becuase people do not have the guts to speak for themselves.

There are so many things that have happened and are happening in the community lately that are flat out just wrong. But without being able to post said privileged information it's drama and speculation in the eyes of the masses. That's what happens all the time. People will talk one on one with other, but the privileged information is what holds the truth of the stories, but no one ever posts that. They keep it to themselves, so people who go the way of the truth get upset (as they should) and the others get mad at those who do for (to them) being dramatic and making more out of it than it is. Then the whole story is discredited. All becuase people will talk but they don't REALLY want to put it out there for the community. So now we have all these stories floating around and they get twisted with gossip. Then people end up hating on each other and sometimes for parts of stories that aren't even true.

Everything in the community is so "underground" anymore it almost feels like dirty gossip, even though I've seen the evidence and truths for a lot of these "just gossip stories" for myself. People won't even post reviews anymore. I thought if I fought the battle so that could happen and it could be safe for people to do. It just feels like it was all wasted. And believe you me, I have sacrificed a lot. Having admin style throw down fights with people I consider friends becuase they stepped out of line on the forum- and I needed to do my job rather than be a friend and they took it personally- is the least of the sacrifices I have made for this place. I have to a degree wrecked my reputation, and by association my professional career, with whole chunks of the community and their supporters by being a good admin and doing what's right when people disagreed with me. I have shut a lot of doors in more ways than people may realize, killed a lot of future opportunities for myself, and had people burn their bridges to me for the sake of doing the right thing for the site and community. In a small career path and niche community like this those things can turn from inconveniences to career stoppers. And I feel all of it is for nothing if people won't stop hiding and instead just POST themselves instead of expecting people like Raina and myself to air it out for them.

I completely understand the mentality of, "People need to know, if you don't say something I will". But people have become so closed off that they just talk to other people instead of facing the community and putting it out there, and it's perpetuating so much hate. So much needless hate. I made MerNetwork to be a safe place to post this stuff. That was my goal. I worked at it, but people won't even do that anymore. They'd rather just keep it all behind the scenes where it turns into gossip and cheap stories and hate turns up where it shouldn't. Everything gets twisted around, when it would be better if the people just posted their truths. Heck I've seen people in this community who hated each other for YEARS from one stupid misunderstanding. In that time one person generated so much hate towards the other it absolutely floored me. Then one day they actually not only talked but listened and then they were fine. All that time, all that energy, all that hate.. over nothing. I'd rather MerNetwork be full of drama so it can be worked out than have a community that's full of needless hate.

[NerineArcticMermaid]

I do not hate. No I got pissed off because you brought up a sensitive subject that had no place being brought up. That has nothing to do with my comments today. Stop rehashing things. I will not be drawn down. I had every right to be pissed. I will not speak of that again. And yes I am going to block you. Sick and tired of how you speak to people here.

[Kanti]

I actually suggested they turn the wall off and redirect people to email so they can keep track of who is who and put stuff in folders etc. Plus FB will automatically hide some wall posts and you don't always get notifications. Also a certain person was making fake accounts to feed off the drama and make it LOOK like there were more angrier customers than there actually are. Which was really disappointing because it only took 2 clicks to see who they actually were
Then why mention it so passively agressively? And then why CLAIM to everyone that they're "not smart enough" to be untraced back to their account? Is that informative to anyone? Not only is that bringing it out to the floor but it is passively aggressively insulting someone, not "bringing up a concern to the community in a respectful manner" or whatever. That is a jab at someone, it wasn't even directed at people as a "concern". I can say that as someone who wasn't making fake accounts to post on the wall, that was certainly not an informative post towards me.



You've got a few things wrong here. #1. I have not said to anyone to be patient, and wait and their tail will come through. Never. I've done nothing but express sympathy. Also, your post here? Identical to an email they received from someone else, who is apparently not you? That's confusing. I'm also confused why you'd be upset that I point out an actual Fact about the situation (people making fake accounts to post on fishbutts wall, it's not a rumour and I know you KNOW that, but you can go on as much as you like. Just because things weren't posted here doesn't mean a huge amount of community members didn't watch it unfold on FB) since I've never purchased a tail, when you yourself and the other people who are making fake accounts and fb pages ALSO have never purchased a tail. It's a community happening, I have every right to add to the conversation the things I have observed. If you'd *like* me to take it that extra step of drama forward and perhaps post a video showing the tracking of the fake accounts and who is actually responsible for them- sure. But you seem to frown upon that sort of behaviour.
In Raina's exceptionally dramatic and confrontational post she made she literally bragged about how she had a "video showing" that Aela or someone else was responsible for making fake accounts. So it was NOT a "oh I can't share it wouldn't be nice!" it's a "don't challenge me or I'll rat you out because I HAVE proof" which I'd actually like to see now. She only apparently didn't show it off because "But you seem to frown on that behavior"
And she even goes to say "I HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO ADD TO THE CONVERSATION OF THINGS I HAVE DISCOVERED."
Oh come on people. Does that sound like she "doesn't want to divulge the info for personal reasons"? -___-

So are you guys trying to say that Raina was being self-less and kind and just trying to alert people? Because it sounds more like she wanted to pick a fight and threaten someone with a supposed "video of their fake accounts".
I mean, I'm saying what just seems to clear to me. But I have to wait for Raina's response to my original post. I'd really like to see what the reasoning is because anything logical escapes me.

[Kanti]

I do not hate. No I got pissed off because you brought up a sensitive subject that had no place being brought up. That has nothing to do with my comments today. Stop rehashing things. I will not be drawn down. I had every right to be pissed. I will not speak of that again. And yes I am going to block you. Sick and tired of how you speak to people here.

It did have a place and I explained it.
Maybe you are the one with the "selective reading problem".
Doesn't matter, just block me.

[Thalassa]

Okay...maybe I'm more of a drama person than I thought, but there's no one to vent to online and I'm gonna blow.

Kanti, please cease! I'm not saying one person's actions are right or wrong concerning the original situation. Staying out of that one because I don't have all the information and it would perpetuate the secondhand problem. But it is really bugging me how you treat it when people say, "I think you're wrong. But I'm not going to sit all day arguing about it." You keep calling them back, asking that they "defend" their opinion (By the way, they don't have to, they have the right to hold the opinion whether or not they can defend it). When they give you the reasons behind their opinion, you keep the argument going by picking apart their posts. When they get sick of it and say they're stepping away, you degrade them or their opinions. Even when people give you credit where credit is due and admit that they did something badly, you won't let it go. You then call them immature and accuse them of perpetuating drama. This bugs be because I do this. Yes, I have an opinion. It may differ from yours, but some people don't want their opinions put on trial. Some have anxiety issues where they feel horrid if they feel someone dislikes them (happens in an argument), some have spent so much time and energy defending and explaining their opinions they're just sick of it, some just know that continuing to argue about an issue when neither side will change their mind is a waste of time and leads to bad feelings. It's our choice to walk away, and I honestly view it as a sign of maturity, not immaturity.

Intentional or not, posting so negatively so often about a particular mer is contributing to the issue. If Melusinah, et al have issues with Raina, let THEM take it up with her via PMs. People need to stop white-knighting (sorry if that's a trigger word) in other peoples's issues and let them deal with it themselves. I know it's hard when you're a mother, sister, brother, or friend, to see them hurting...but this secondhand stuff isn't helping anything. So support them, encourage them, sit by their side, but don't fight the fight FOR them.

And please don't tell me people need to look at this unemotionally. Because that may be the way your mind works, but not everyone's does. Emotions get high. And then we end up in the same cycle that has been going on for seems like forever. The same people post on the same sides for forever, and it's making Mernetwork a very negative and not-safe-feeling place. If you all have issues with Raina, I feel like you've aired your grievances and you're just repeating yourself now. So take it to PMs, will ya? I'm not saying let's all get along, but does this all really need to be hashed out in public? You take it out of the drama threads (Raina being on the Fish Butts page "harharhar"and demanding an apology on the behalf of Melusinah), so please don't tell me people can just ignore the drama threads.

We had a good conversation today, and if it weren't for your constant picking I'd actually really like you. But the sad truth is I now have a negative reaction when I see your name, because so many of your posts come across as cocky, argumentative (argumentative does not mean insulting), and negative. They're well worded (that may be why they're so often long), but still have that attitude, as if you feel that if you keep going you could MAKE the other person understand enough to agree with you. Believe me, I know this feeling well! But you CAN'T, they WON'T. Many of your posts are helpful, too, and I'm trying to focus on that, but it's becoming more difficult. Yes, I know you don't care.

That being said, maybe you should block Nerine and Raina as well? It seems to be their posts that are pissing you off and making you argue over and over again? Blocking does work both ways...

Oh, now that I've vented, if you want to pick my post apart you should PM me. I may read it, may not...may respond, may not. Depends on if I feel like getting into it, or if I feel like leaving it now that I've blown off steam.

[Kanti]

No because I have a right to post, and in this case I am trying to correct bad behavior publicly.
Also this is the drama thread it is not required for anyone to post in here nor to read, you all are completely free to walk out and ignore it whenever you want.

And no I'm not going to block people I don't have problems with. I was willing to talk to Nerine and attempt to talk it out and possibly even reach an agreement but if SHE is the one with a problem with me, she is the one who needs to take the action to block me. F*ck I even went out of my walk to compliment her on that really pretty top she made. But again, she's got a grudge for NO reason but that's excuseable?
As for Raina Im not even sure. She wanted to defend herself and I gave her reasoning as to why she is wrong. How is that wrong in any way? It's not, and she came on here to defend herself I'm only giving an explanation of how wrong I believe she is. If she has a response she can give it.

Why should I be quiet? Because I'm making people who are being rude, aggressive and dramatic feel bad and evaluate themselves for their behavior? If I'm so wrong about everything why doesn't anyone address my points? You all seem to ignore 98% of them and move along to try and pick apart the ONE that you might be able to disprove. So I guess it's okay when everyone else does it, but when it's me it's wrong and I need to "stop it". When Nerine attacks me like a bully and comes in here to literally just tell me to "shut up and that no one cares" she doesn't have to stop it?
I must've missed that post can someone point it out to me? You know, where someone who was Nerine's friend defended me when I was being attacked? I guess you all overlooked that one very easily.

Well I hope you realize how completely unfair that is to ask.
I;m not mad at you, though, I can stress that enough.

[Ayla of Duluth]

Kanti, please cease! I'm not saying one person's actions are right or wrong concerning the original situation. Staying out of that one because I don't have all the information and it would perpetuate the secondhand problem. But it is really bugging me how you treat it when people say, "I think you're wrong. But I'm not going to sit all day arguing about it." You keep calling them back, asking that they "defend" their opinion (By the way, they don't have to, they have the right to hold the opinion whether or not they can defend it). When they give you the reasons behind their opinion, you keep the argument going by picking apart their posts. When they get sick of it and say they're stepping away, you degrade them or their opinions. Even when people give you credit where credit is due and admit that they did something badly, you won't let it go. You then call them immature and accuse them of perpetuating drama.

Kanti, this is essentially what I was trying to say when I said you pick apart the arguments and such.

[Kanti]

Kanti, this is essentially what I was trying to say when I said you pick apart the arguments and such.

Before I even address that can you apologize for being mean to me earlier? Like for all those times you picked apart my arguments?
I'm tired of people being rude to me and just acting like it's nothing.

[SeaGlass Siren]

Ok pardon me but I kinda see it both ways...

Ok I'll just leave it as that.

[SeaGlass Siren]

And by it"" I mean from kanti's and nerine's perspective��

[Ayla of Duluth]

Before I even address that can you apologize for being mean to me earlier? Like for all those times you picked apart my arguments?
I'm tired of people being rude to me and just acting like it's nothing.
Kanti, I was never mean to you. You randomly accused me of having a fake account. I've been nothing but civil to you and I admitted my mistake in misreading the argument about same sex marriage. So personally I don't feel like I have a reason to apologize.

[MermaidBrittany]

Ok, bottom line is no one has to post, respond, or even acknowledge anything online that they don't have to. (Or even read it!)
I personally think that Kanti has some very valid points, and yet others do too.
Its pointless to ask people to stop talking about something or supporting their side of an argument in the drama threads. ​That is their purpose!

[Kanti]

Kanti, I was never mean to you. You randomly accused me of having a fake account. I've been nothing but civil to you and I admitted my mistake in misreading the argument about same sex marriage. So personally I don't feel like I have a reason to apologize.

I accused you of having a fake account? When??
And if you admitted your mistake why can't you apologize for being rude to me? What you did WAS mean. For typing such a hurtful response without even giving me the respect of reading what I typed out.

[Thalassa]

Fine, if y'all want to post your own neverending circle of arguments and perpetuate the negativity, go ahead. Keep spinning your wheels, because those who agree with you agree with you already, those who don't won't agree just because you go another round. I'm just pointing out that that's what you're doing. I was literally trying to make someone who I see as being rude, aggressive and dramatic evaluate her own behavior. Sound familiar?

I never said it was right for Nerine to go the rounds with you either, but she seems willing to step away and let it go. You, on the other hand, seem not to be. (See? This "NO I WILL NOT BE SILENCED" attitude is part of the problem.) You refused to take it to PMs with me, refuse to let people state their opinions and go. With me, I understand it more because I was specifically referencing you. Just because I ask you to stop doesn't mean I think she's not wrong too. You can both be wrong. But I'm trying to address what I see as being a very consistent problem.

I guess people think being rude to you is nothing because you seem to do it and then defend yourself doing it? So they figure you condone it? If we take everyone to task who is rude at all, isn't that the "Let's all get along" attitude you dislike? Everyone's going to be rude now and again, it's when it becomes a pattern that it needs to be addressed.

Honestly, I would have let you and Nerine deal with this yourselves and not deal with the secondhand stuff, but I feel sort of attacked when you insult people who just walk away (like I do). I know that wasn't your intention. I'm also...just sick of hearing about all this.

I hope you know that I'm not mad at you...this may sound silly, but I sort of compare you to my little sister. She'll argue things to the death and every now and again just needs someone to tell her, "Okay, enough, we get it now let's move on and have some fun!"

Now. Before feelings get any worse, I'm stepping away from the keyboard. Say what you want about me, I'll feel bad but I've made myself a promise that I won't respond again publicly and I'm going to keep it this time.

Brittany: The problem is, it hasn't kept to the drama threads. I agree that's what they're there for, but people can't seem to keep it there.

[Kanti]

That's fine Thalassa, you're free to do that, it's the drama thread.
But may I correct you to say Nerine was far from willing to step away as she continued to post to everything I said. I was not confining her here not making her respond to me. She only continued on her own accord. I also didn't private message her to chase her around for it, I simply stated my opinion, which is COMPLETELY FINE in the drama thread and Nerine had a problem with it so she stayed.
However, even though I was quite calm and explained everything on MY side of the argument, Nerine did not equate, instead saying "she didn't have to explain herself". Well, that's fine, then leave? I'm not making anyone stay.
Also if you can't explain yourself or don't want to, fine as well. I honestly wanted an intellectual conversation, where one person can be frank with the other and they don't have to explode about anger. I literally told Nerine to please leave quite a few times, as well, so I wasn't asking for anything.

As for your response to Brittany, everyone is fine at keeping the drama in here, well at least I am. Nerine has been holding a grudge against me, though, so she brings the drama outside, even to the chatbox where it is uncalled for, so if anyone is guilty of that it's her.
I tried to be nice to her and that failed spectacularly.

[Ayla of Duluth]

Oh. Sorry, you accused me of stealing tail designs. My bad. I got all mixed up somewhere. Still hurtful though, since I've NEVER stolen any tail design. They're either original designs of my own or they're credited with the original creator's name and/or business.

[Kanti]

Hmm actually I never accused you of stealing designs, I said "if you need to credit the guy who designed the fluke, you need to credit the guy who designed the entire mermaid first"
So again you are twisting my words or not even bothering to look them up and you didn't even apologize, you sort of just made a backhanded and very rude statement at me instead. Again, very insulting and uncalled for when I am being nothing but polite : /

[Kanti]

If that's REALLY what you think Ayla, I hope that when you design your mermaid tails, you make a note on your drawings and credit the man/woman who designed mermaids in the first place. I guess you're guilty of your own crime in that sense?

To care about someone copying you is to be even more petty and sad than to not credit someone for their design.


Here is what I said. It literally took me 5 seconds to look it up.
Did I ever say you stole a design? Doesn't look like it.

[Kanti]

Also wait a minute, you said I accused you of having a fake account?
Do you even think before you type? You literally care nothing about me or what I think. You don't even care to argue correctly or look up your arguments or points, you just want to be right.

[Ayla of Duluth]

If that's REALLY what you think Ayla, I hope that when you design your mermaid tails, you make a note on your drawings and credit the man/woman who designed mermaids in the first place. I guess you're guilty of your own crime in that sense?

To care about someone copying you is to be even more petty and sad than to not credit someone for their design.


I do. Check my etsy where I sell my charms, check my deviantart where I post the charms for opinions.

[Ayla of Duluth]

Also wait a minute, you said I accused you of having a fake account?
Do you even think before you type? You literally care nothing about me or what I think. You don't even care to argue correctly or look up your arguments or points, you just want to be right.

Like I said Kanti, whenever I've mixed up something you said about me, I apologized. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed and things get mixed up in my mind and I misquote people. Again, I corrected myself and apologized. It seems like you're the one who doesn't think before she types, or else you would have caught my correction. Which apparently you didn't.

[Mermaid Kelda]

I do not hate. No I got pissed off because you brought up a sensitive subject that had no place being brought up. That has nothing to do with my comments today. Stop rehashing things. I will not be drawn down. I had every right to be pissed. I will not speak of that again. And yes I am going to block you. Sick and tired of how you speak to people here.
Nerine, the issue of gay marriage was an example. A good one, I might add. Kanti brought it up because it illustrated that just because something is "illegal", doesn't make it wrong. Gay marriage is illegal, but I'm sure we'd all agree that it should be legal. In the same way, just because copyright infringement is against the law, that doesn't necessarily mean it is a bad thing. It very well might be wrong! But just the simple fact of it being "against the law" isn't the be-all and end-all, as we can see with the gay marriage debate. Kanti's example was a good one, and she wasn't trying to offend you, but you responded in all-caps saying she had offended you. Now I'm not saying that I agree with everything Kanti says or does, but in this case I think you overreacted and let your emotions get the better of you without actually reading and understanding Kanti's comment.

Sorry for bringing this up again, I know you don't want to hear any more about it, but I just want you to realise that you can seem a bit quick to blame and assume sometimes. It's great to be strong minded and sure of yourself! And I really respect you for that! But at the same time, it's good practice to re-read things that make you angry, and figure out whether or not the person really meant what you thought they meant. Otherwise things can get messy and heated and just miserable for everyone involved :(


On another (on-topic) note, I don't agree with everything Kanti said in her reply to Raina. I thought Raina's message was a good one, and I think anyone who feels like they have been hurt or misunderstood should contact her about it privately. I also agree that it's not always possible to post "proof" of things; some people can get very upset if things they say end up in places they didn't plan on. Obviously this is going to differ with context, but on the whole there needs to be a level of trust. I think that's a big issue on this site sometimes. People need to be sure of their information before they accuse others. Speculation is fine, but don't let something you think happened taint your opinion of all the lovely, diverse, and on-the-whole amazing community of merfolk we have here. We really need to learn to discuss things civilly, and like Iona said, talk about things in the open rather than letting them fester, or gossiping with each other.

[Kanti]

Like I said Kanti, whenever I've mixed up something you said about me, I apologized. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed and things get mixed up in my mind and I misquote people. Again, I corrected myself and apologized. It seems like you're the one who doesn't think before she types, or else you would have caught my correction. Which apparently you didn't.

I did read it, it is a valid point, and I am still very upset at the fact that you typed that out without even caring about THINKING about what it was I did wrong to you before you typed up "accused me of making a fake account".
I also don't see an apology to me for being so rude. For accusing me of cutting apart conversations, which I never did, and then now for not even thinking before you accused me. You don't even respect me enough to look up something before you automatically assume I must be at fault and then point your gun at me and speak to me so rudely. And then you even make a sny apology instead to top it all off!

PLEASE apologize like a regular person. Apologize like you would to someone you were actually sorry for, if not then don't apologize at all. You were being so rude to me and supporting Nerine's behaviour for being rude as well.
I think I deserve an apology and I think that is literally nothing too hard to ask for, but I see from your responses that maybe I can't expect a legitimate one as you see have something against me and can not even bring yourself to apologize

[Ayla of Duluth]

Here's the point Kanti. You're not going to get an apology from me. And that's that.

[Mer_Adella]

Before I even address that can you apologize for being mean to me earlier? Like for all those times you picked apart my arguments?
I'm tired of people being rude to me and just acting like it's nothing.
I understand that this was addressed to someone else. But....you want her to appologize to you for "all those times you picked apart my arguments?" *Steps aside and gestures for Kanti to step forward* I have had NO PROBLEM with you expressing your opinions before. But this irritated me. You want Ayla to appologize to you for picking apart your posts that she "picked and chooses" from (along with accusing me of that as well) But I would like YOU to appologize for doing the same thing. You may have quoted the WHOLE post from another and gave detailed answers for each quotation, BUT you still picked apart their thoughts, opinions, facts, beliefs, etc etc. So please...step forward.

Alright I'm going to pick this apart in points that I will number because I honestly expect a proper explanation for each one or I believe it's fair to assume you don't have an answer to them. Not being rude, just trying to get this argument down to back and forward easier since there is so much stuff. Also I will be using quotation marks a lot, not to demean anything you say but just to quote exactly what you said.
Alright let's begin:
Right HERE!!! You tell her that you are going to pick it apart in points that you will NUMBER. Sure your giving your reasons and explanations but you are STILL picking apart her letter/explanation….did you apologize? I haven’t seen one yet, even though you want Ayla to apologize for picking apart your stuff?



Uhh.. How?
It's showing them that they're wrong not personally attacking them...
Again, only people who attach emotion to argument would think it was an attack.
This was in response to what Nerine said to you about you picking apart conversations and nit picking and personal attacking peoples posts. Possibly “attack” was a wrong word here, but still….”Its show them that they’re WRONG..????” You want to tell me that my post, opinion, belief, etc is WRONG??!! Now you need to seriously back off. This is a horrible statement to make and you might want to rethink that. A lot of people are not going to like that you basically said that you are showing them that they are wrong in what they post when you quote them.

That is all I am done…not going to read any more or post any more…

[Ayla of Duluth]

I've already apologized to you twice, and if that's not good enough for you, then that's a shame. You ASSUME I'm not sincere in my apologies and thus you DEMAND for me to what, get on my knees and beg your forgiveness and cry while I say I'm sorry for what I said? No. I apologized about the mix ups that I made. I'm not apologizing because you didn't think the apologies were good enough. That's just fucking ridiculous.

[Kanti]

On another (on-topic) note, I don't agree with everything Kanti said in her reply to Raina. I thought Raina's message was a good one, and I think anyone who feels like they have been hurt or misunderstood should contact her about it privately. I also agree that it's not always possible to post "proof" of things; some people can get very upset if things they say end up in places they didn't plan on. Obviously this is going to differ with context, but on the whole there needs to be a level of trust. I think that's a big issue on this site sometimes. People need to be sure of their information before they accuse others. Speculation is fine, but don't let something you think happened taint your opinion of all the lovely, diverse, and on-the-whole amazing community of merfolk we have here. We really need to learn to discuss things civilly, and like Iona said, talk about things in the open rather than letting them fester, or gossiping with each other.

I can agree with this but honestly I'm not even completely behind what I said either, I'm waiting for a response. I only know as much of Raina's story that she revealed to me, as Lorelei pointed out earlier, I jumped to an assumption that I shouldn't have, which should have instead been a question, but either way if Raina has good reasoning then who knows, she can be right.
As for the "proof" nonsense that was mainly because she was being aggressive towards another member, claiming she had "video proof" that they did something wrong and that she could show it to everyone. I'm sort of saying "well if you have it, present it?" because I honestly am not sure how she even figured that out, and if she did, great, but she needs to SHOW it if she's making the claim that it exists.

That's like me going to court and accusing someone of a murder and when they say "Oh do you have proof?" I say "Hell yea I have a knife with blood and their fingerprints!" and then when asked to show it I say something like "Oh but I don't NEED to show it to you". That's basically what's been going on over and over in this topic. People make extravagant claims and say they're right, when you ask for "proof" they say they "don't need to explain themselves". And that's fine but then either get out of here if you're not going to say why, or why would you even make the claim in the first place if you weren't willing to show the proof??

[Mermaid Kelda]

Fair enough. I hadn't read the thread where she stated she had proof. And I don't know enough of the story to know if that accusation was unfounded. I can see why people thought your post was a bit presumptuous (your tone is brusque, which people can misinterpret as accusing), but you were being straight-up and asking questions about a topic you wanted to understand more about. It's fair enough to ask for proof if proof was offered.

Honestly I shouldn't really be commenting on this at all xD I know so little about the back story. And it's hard to figure out "right" or "wrong" because I was never directly affected by any of it, so I can't even go by personal feelings. Which is probably even more reason for me to stay out of the whole debate... o__o

[Kanti]

I've already apologized to you twice, and if that's not good enough for you, then that's a shame. You ASSUME I'm not sincere in my apologies and thus you DEMAND for me to what, get on my knees and beg your forgiveness and cry while I say I'm sorry for what I said? No. I apologized about the mix ups that I made. I'm not apologizing because you didn't think the apologies were good enough. That's just fucking ridiculous.

Huh? I never asked you to get on your knees and beg or whatever, THATS ridiculous and nowhere did I even say that? You're turning a very simple request into something extravagant.

If you don't think you have anything left to apologize for then that's fine. I can't force you, then it wouldn't be an apology.

[Ayla of Duluth]

Huh? I never asked you to get on your knees and beg or whatever, THATS ridiculous and nowhere did I even say that? You're turning a very simple request into something extravagant.

If you don't think you have anything left to apologize for then that's fine. I can't force you, then it wouldn't be an apology.
I never said you said that. But that's basically what you're doing. I've apologized to you twice and you're essentially saying it wasn't sincere enough and to apologize again. Apologize like a regular person? the hell did I apologize like before? a psychopath?

[Kanti]

It's alright Melaina, that's understandable

If you dont want to address it further that's fine, but if you are interested THIS is the stuff we're talking about: I actually posted this earler but no one addressed it again, conveniently.
The quotes are things Raina said.


I actually suggested they turn the wall off and redirect people to email so they can keep track of who is who and put stuff in folders etc. Plus FB will automatically hide some wall posts and you don't always get notifications. Also a certain person was making fake accounts to feed off the drama and make it LOOK like there were more angrier customers than there actually are. Which was really disappointing because it only took 2 clicks to see who they actually were
Then why mention it so passively agressively? And then why CLAIM to everyone that they're "not smart enough" to be untraced back to their account? Is that informative to anyone? Not only is that bringing it out to the floor but it is passively aggressively insulting someone, not "bringing up a concern to the community in a respectful manner" or whatever. That is a jab at someone, it wasn't even directed at people as a "concern". I can say that as someone who wasn't making fake accounts to post on the wall, that was certainly not an informative post towards me.



You've got a few things wrong here. #1. I have not said to anyone to be patient, and wait and their tail will come through. Never. I've done nothing but express sympathy. Also, your post here? Identical to an email they received from someone else, who is apparently not you? That's confusing. I'm also confused why you'd be upset that I point out an actual Fact about the situation (people making fake accounts to post on fishbutts wall, it's not a rumour and I know you KNOW that, but you can go on as much as you like. Just because things weren't posted here doesn't mean a huge amount of community members didn't watch it unfold on FB) since I've never purchased a tail, when you yourself and the other people who are making fake accounts and fb pages ALSO have never purchased a tail. It's a community happening, I have every right to add to the conversation the things I have observed. If you'd *like* me to take it that extra step of drama forward and perhaps post a video showing the tracking of the fake accounts and who is actually responsible for them- sure. But you seem to frown upon that sort of behaviour.
In Raina's exceptionally dramatic and confrontational post she made she literally bragged about how she had a "video showing" that Aela or someone else was responsible for making fake accounts. So it was NOT a "oh I can't share it wouldn't be nice!" it's a "don't challenge me or I'll rat you out because I HAVE proof" which I'd actually like to see now. She only apparently didn't show it off because "But you seem to frown on that behavior"
And she even goes to say "I HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO ADD TO THE CONVERSATION OF THINGS I HAVE DISCOVERED."
Oh come on people. Does that sound like she "doesn't want to divulge the info for personal reasons"? -___-

So are you guys trying to say that Raina was being self-less and kind and just trying to alert people? Because it sounds more like she wanted to pick a fight and threaten someone with a supposed "video of their fake accounts".
I mean, I'm saying what just seems to clear to me. But I have to wait for Raina's response to my original post. I'd really like to see what the reasoning is because anything logical escapes me.

[Kanti]

I never said you said that. But that's basically what you're doing. I've apologized to you twice and you're essentially saying it wasn't sincere enough and to apologize again. Apologize like a regular person? the hell did I apologize like before? a psychopath?

It's fine, Ayla
You don't have to apologize, you already said you weren't going to.

[Mermaid Kelda]

Considering the backlash that's been created from accusing people, I think it'd probably be a good idea for Raina to post the video. It's not bullying to rat someone else out for bullying. It's just showing the bullies to everyone else so they know to take caution. If anyone has proof of someone doing something nasty that affects the community, I think everyone else in the community has the right to see it. Of course, the accused has every right to be listened to if explaining things from their own point of view, too.

[Kanti]

Yea that's what I was saying.
If you have proof, show us.

Well even so I was not approving of how Raina handled that situation. It was on a regular thread and she got passive aggressive and started a fight instead of taking it to the drama forum and simply avoiding it by posting the video.

That was basically a response to Iona, who claimed that Raina didn't actually WANT to show any proof of anything and that she would be "infringing someone's privacy" when you can see, in her post, she is very aggressive towards the person she claims has fake accounts and THEN even goes on to blatanly call them out for it. Which is FINE except you need to do it in the drama thread, you don't need to be so aggressive and rude when you say it, and you actally need to HAVE proof for it.

[Kanti]

I understand that this was addressed to someone else. But....you want her to appologize to you for "all those times you picked apart my arguments?" *Steps aside and gestures for Kanti to step forward* I have had NO PROBLEM with you expressing your opinions before. But this irritated me. You want Ayla to appologize to you for picking apart your posts that she "picked and chooses" from (along with accusing me of that as well) But I would like YOU to appologize for doing the same thing. You may have quoted the WHOLE post from another and gave detailed answers for each quotation, BUT you still picked apart their thoughts, opinions, facts, beliefs, etc etc. So please...step forward.

Right HERE!!! You tell her that you are going to pick it apart in points that you will NUMBER. Sure your giving your reasons and explanations but you are STILL picking apart her letter/explanation….did you apologize? I haven’t seen one yet, even though you want Ayla to apologize for picking apart your stuff?

This was in response to what Nerine said to you about you picking apart conversations and nit picking and personal attacking peoples posts. Possibly “attack” was a wrong word here, but still….”Its show them that they’re WRONG..????” You want to tell me that my post, opinion, belief, etc is WRONG??!! Now you need to seriously back off. This is a horrible statement to make and you might want to rethink that. A lot of people are not going to like that you basically said that you are showing them that they are wrong in what they post when you quote them.

That is all I am done…not going to read any more or post any more…

If you're not even going to read any more then I'm not going to take the time to re-explain this again. I already explained it once, very well detailed, and you either did not see it or chose to not read it.
Why would you come to the forum to pick someone's argument and then leave and say you're not even going to stay for the explanation? That'd be like me going to a math class being like "Solve this problem I don't get it!" and then just waltzing out of the room as he begins.

[ShyMer]

Forgive me if I am mistaken, but these are a few of my thoughts on the current issues. I will try to keep them short and to the point.


Ayla, if I remember correctly, it wasn't you who was suspected of making multiple accounts, but aela. I've confused your accounts before myself because the names are so close. In either case, reading your exchange with Kanti leads me to think that you're a sensitive person. That isn't a bad thing. Try not to interpret all of these things as personal attacks, as they're often misunderstandings.




Kanti, I would like to start by suggesting that the subject of legalizing gay marriage was an inappropriate choice for comparison. Logically it makes sense and fits your argument, but it seems to have struck a nerve. It's an extremely emotional issue right now; people feel too strongly about this subject, whether for or against. I can see that you are working to write in a way that is clear and understandable, plainly stating your thoughts, and confronting when you feel necessary. You may need to take a step back and consider how other personality types will receive you; most people right now seem to be intimidated rather than understanding. This may or may not be as a result of your tone, but I think it's worth consideration.


I think we're missing the point of Raina' s original post. She came to the community to address a problem she discovered with her behavior. She has not addressed all of them, whatever they may or may not be, but that's not the point. We all have flaws, and there will be an appropriate time to address them.
I am proud of Raina for coming forward with this. I think it demonstrates maturity to be able to listen to feedback from others and admit the need for change. I believe many of us can learn from her example.


On the other issues brought up by Kanti, it's hard to say what is right and what is wrong. Raina is one of those people who easily steps up when she sees a need. She has confidence in what she does and isn't afraid to stick up for what she believes in. I think that it can be easy for someone like Raina to find that the things she's been doing all along were wrong or poorly handled.
I will use Melu' s situation as an example.
I don't follow many mers' pages on facebook, but I happened upon fish butts' page as this was unfolding. I'm more of a sensitive person myself, and have been aware of the fishy goings on with the community lately, so I assumed that Melu's comment was an attack (though I didn't know who she was at first.) Raina' s response felt a bit strong to me, but it reflects some of what I thought. As it unfolded it became clear that the whole thing was handed poorly by many involved and perhaps blown out of proportion as well.


One problem is that Raina is one of the few mers that actually stand up to these things. Stevi has been silent for a while, busy with personal issues, and has been allowing others to speak for her. People like Raina see that and naturally try to defend her. Maybe she has the right to jump in and maybe she doesn't, but if she does not, then who is allowed to step in? We have our moderators, but they are limited to the network in their authority and even then we challenge them.


In conclusion, I want to say that we should hold others accountable for their behavior, but this is all a symptom of deeper issues.

[Kanti]

Eh I get where you're coming from but this is the drama thread. Honestly if people are going to get emotional and waste time fighting about things instead of discussing them like adults then maybe they shouldn't be here.
When someone gets offended they should probably leave instead of staying around and even coming back in just to say something sny or "omg stop fighting!" It's the drama thread, if people need to get things out, let them. Better they argue about it in a controlled manner than go on being private and harboring hatred for no reason. Also no one is making you read anything, you're free to leave and ignore it.

As for the things addressing Raina, I'm not sure what to say, really. I said what I thought but she still has yet to respond so she could say something that I didn't think of, sure. So I'm not going to jump to any conclusions, I only responded to what I saw.

And sorry, not being rude, but it's pretty ironic that people complain about me "white-knighting" and arguing on Melu's behalf when Raina was picking on her but then if it's turned around and Raina is doing the "white-knighting" for Stevi everyone is okay with it?

http://i.qkme.me/3oxgnu.jpg

[Usagi]

ShyMer...I will pay you to write ny English essays for the rest of the semester... ;P

[ShyMer]

Well thank you, syd, ethics aside:) To be honest, I hate writing papers. I was always writing mine literally at the last minute...


Kanti, I'm not sure if your response was mostly directed to me or not, but I'll assume it was.

Sure people can leave if they can't handle the discussion, but they don't. They'll just get more worked up.

All I'm trying to say is that if you want to get a rational discussion out of people, you may need to change your tone. I'm just observing that there's a lot of headbutting and am trying to pose a solution. People are going to respond in turn to what they perceive you're giving to them. I also feel as though some people are trying to tell you that you're doing things that upset them, but you're dismissing them without any consideration. I guess it comes down to what you really want from people.

Looking back at your first response to Raina's post, it feels aggressive. Maybe it wasn't meant to seem that way, but that's how it reads.


For the double standards, this sounds to me like you're frustrated. Not everyone is saying Raina is completely justified and you're completely wrong. If I were you, I'd take that as encouragement.



As a side note, I think there's a limit to what "getting it off your chest" can do for you. Many people do this in an unhealthy manner, making themselves more upset than not. I don't think this is something mernetwork should try to regulate, just something to watch out for. If someone's getting themselves more worked up, perhaps we should leave that person alone to cool off rather than encouraging them forward.

[Kanti]

Oh sorry, yea, Shymer, it was but I wasn't meaning to be rude or anything. Sorry it was uncertain.

And yea, but to assume that I'm having a harsh tone is also pretty unfair. I didn't call anyone names or be rude, ever. I was just being frank and cutting to the chase. I understand some people don't like that, but I honestly don't want to have conversations with people who can't just TALK to me. People who need everything sugar coated need to grow up. I know that sounds mean and harsh, but sorry if you're over 18 and you still need someone to be really nice and tell you 4 positive things about yourself before they tell you 1 negative thing then you're going to have a hard time transitioning into reality. But that point aside, I was still never being mean to anyone. I was actually being quite nice. Just because I didn't add a smileyface at the end of every post doesn't mean I was automatically being mean.
You can say the same about my response to Raina. It wasn't agressive, I didn't call her names or be sny at any point, I simply got to the chase quickly and said what needed to be said. Again, I don't like to sugarcoat.

And if someone is getting worked up that's their responsibility to leave and not answer back. I don't know everyone personally, and honestly I don't really care if you get worked up over a conversation, it's up to you to know your limits and back off if you're going to get so emotional that you stop making sense. It'd be like someone who KNOWS they will beat someone up if they get too upset, okay then isn't it that person's responsibility to NOT let themselves get that upset or to LEAVE THE AREA so they don't beat someone up? Would anyone ever think of blaming the person who pissed the guy off? No, they'd blame/arrest the guy for not being responsible enough to get away from the source of anger. You can't rely on everyone else to know everything about you.
Not to mention half the problems in this thread were people not even reading what I took the time to write out, so it does get a bit frustrating when I'm very calmly re-writing my point 5 different times by someone who ironically says they "don't have to explain themselves to me". So honestly, yea it's a bit ridiculous that all this is being excused so easily, but I only assume it's because half the people didn't read the entire convo, it's a lot, so that's understandable.

And of course, double standards are the worst yet they happen every 5 seconds in this forum. I was actually trying to poke fun at it with that picture, but it is very frustrating to deal with one sentence being "Oh stop white-knighting Kanti! No one likes your opinion" and then another being "Oh Raina is so brave for defending that person!" It's just another recurring problem on this forum just like with Fishbutts vs Mertailor. "Oh you've been waiting for your tail for 5 months? Oh Eric is so terrible what a scam artist!" "Oh you've been waiting for your tail for 5 months? Ohh Stevi is just going through hard times! Don't be so mean to her!" Everything is so clique-y and people are so quick to jump to one side of an argument without even READING what's going on as demonstrated several times, mainly by Nerine when she admitted she didn't even read my response yet essentially told me to "shut up" because she already decided she was going to side with Raina no matter what I said. Very fair?

I dunno, am I being rude now? I may be a little quick and harsh at this moment because, yea, I'm tired of this unintellectual argument where people let their emotions take run and they just want to prove me wrong because they "don't like my tone" or "think I sound arrogant". If you can't have a conversation without getting emotional then stay OUT of the drama thread. I don't know what in the world is so hard about that.

[Whisper]

Nerine, it looks like to me, you are attacking Kanti. So nerine, you are only going to Raina's defense, because she is a personal friend, and not read how Kanti explained herself very well?

Raina does like to bait people, and then sits back, and plays the "oh poor me"

Myself personally, I do agree with most of what Kanti said.

Lasserine - I agree. I have personally dealt with this same situation with Raina when I first joined Mernetwork.. And have never received an apology for her accusations and actions.

[Whisper]

[QUOTE=I don't follow many mers' pages on facebook, but I happened upon fish butts' page as this was unfolding. I'm more of a sensitive person myself, and have been aware of the fishy goings on with the community lately, so I assumed that Melu's comment was an attack (though I didn't know who she was at first.) Raina' s response felt a bit strong to me, but it reflects some of what I thought. As it unfolded it became clear that the whole thing was handed poorly by many involved and perhaps blown out of proportion as well.[/QUOTE]


As a business person, I would have been extremely upset if someone I knew, whether they thought they were defending me or not, spoke to a potential customer (even if I thought they weren't) like Raina did on my business page. From a business stand point, her actions that day were rude, un-necessary and completely uncalled for.

[ShyMer]

That point has been made- I was just trying to say that I understand why she would have done so, justified or not.

[Kanti]

I thought the response was inappropriate due to the fact that she was essentially dictating who's allowed to buy from Fishbutts and who's not based off who they work for. She essentially put Melu on a side and expected her to stay there.
I didn't see Melu's original post, but I was told it was inappropriate because she said something along the lines of "Why am I going to pay $500 for a tail I may never see?". While that does seem rude because Melu is being clearly suspicious of Fishbutts, Stevi's behavior calls for that response. She had recently offered refunds for tails that she had not completed since October. We've had a few people post on here that their refunds have not been met and they haven't even been given a timeframe for it. Not to mention Stevi continues to have sales.
I would be very suspicious of all that as well, and that comment was more than appropriate to ask, in my opinion.

EDIT: not to mention she was blocking people from posting on the Fishbutts page, people who were here CUSTOMERS and who were asking for refunds. So I mean, that behavior calls for some criticism, as I said.

[Mermaid Melusinah]

I thought the response was inappropriate due to the fact that she was essentially dictating who's allowed to buy from Fishbutts and who's not based off who they work for. She essentially put Melu on a side and expected her to stay there.
I didn't see Melu's original post, but I was told it was inappropriate because she said something along the lines of "Why am I going to pay $500 for a tail I may never see?". While that does seem rude because Melu is being clearly suspicious of Fishbutts, Stevi's behavior calls for that response. She had recently offered refunds for tails that she had not completed since October. We've had a few people post on here that their refunds have not been met and they haven't even been given a timeframe for it. Not to mention Stevi continues to have sales.
I would be very suspicious of all that as well, and that comment was more than appropriate to ask, in my opinion.

EDIT: not to mention she was blocking people from posting on the Fishbutts page, people who were here CUSTOMERS and who were asking for refunds. So I mean, that behavior calls for some criticism, as I said.

My post (of what I can actually remember of it since its been a while now and washed from my mind because its all pety drama and i really just done care...) was more along the lines of trying to gain a general feel of her current wait time on tails in general. I stated that I wanted to make sure that I was going to be able to get a tail in time (IF I ordered) to go and see my family with (again not a gig. im not a pro. this is my HOBBY) before i spent $500 (of HARD earned money) and run the risk of not receiving a refund should some thing go amiss. I wasn't trying to attack or put down any one. It was a true and honest question. I was met with hostility, told to stick to my own business and not order from other tail makers (essentially that was the vibe) and that as a "protip" to remember that tails take time and I shouldnt plan gigs if i need a tail in a timely manner. When I have made it clear SINCE I HAVE JOINED that I never have intentions of "pro" anything. over all, i was disrespected. I can see where it was seen i might have just been bashing, but rather then treat it as a true question, i was cast aside and trodden on by some one that doesnt even work with or represent Fishbutts.... It just kind of hurt really... but im done with the whole thing i really just dont even care any more. just thought i would send some light

[Kanti]

Yea, I can understand, Melu.
Even if you did get a bit rude, like I said, you were dealing with Stevi, whos behavior was a bit suspicious as of lately. I think you deserved to ask the question you did and I thought Raina's response was inappropriate and uncalled for. Not to mention I remember her being very aggressive to the point where she seemed to be making fun of you. I'm not sure, might just be me not remembering it correctly or the vibe I got from it all.

I honestly won't buy a tail from her until she fixes the mess she's in. I understand she needs money, but taking more and more orders just piles onto the mess, it doesn't help you sort it out and charging $500 for a full silicone tail seems to be underselling it by a lot, so honestly to me it raises a red flag that she may be getting desperate for money rather than actually want to fultill the orders properly.
Again, this is just my opinion.

[Whisper]

This rambles – It’s just the way I am…
Melu - Good memory. That is what I remember as well. Though your question been deleted, "Steph Anne"'s comments have remained. Which I am sure confuse many people when they read that particular stretch.


"Steph Anne (https://www.facebook.com/stphanne) genevieve im confused. arent you affiliated with shadowfancy? so why would you "consider" someone else for a tail? also, pro tip: dont buy a tail from ANYONE and then commit to something (gig, photoshoot etc) until you actually recieve a tail. honestly, I get your "grroup" wants people to stop ordering fromn fishbutts because of a multitude of reasons, so just say that. the pretending to be potential customers, the fake accounts from others... it's getting old. yup, fishbutts is having issues. not like they're lying about it. you may not agree with their decisions but thats the nice thing about decisions. you can make your own and choose someone else. im not defending fushbutts"

Yes - Melu is associated with ShadowFancy. No one has ever tried to keep it a secret. It is also no secret that Shadow Fancy does not make silicone tails. As Fishbutts has a tendency to run sales often, I can see where Melu would be interested, even with the wait time. She had every right as a potential customer to ask a question regarding the potential wait time prior to purchase.

I have never wanted anyone to not order from Fishbutts. I don't know of anyone that I know that has wanted people to not order from them. We simply have wanted them to own their mistakes, take care of it/them and go from there.

Who has been making fake accounts? Because I know who it hasn't been. And you are right Raina, it is getting old. We continue to see these accusations thrown around about people making all of these fake accounts just to harass people - It is getting VERY old.

At one point, I had considered purchasing a silicone tail from Fishbutts. I asked several questions regarding their tails and was promptly blocked from their Facebook page. That's fine. There are other silicone tail makers out there to purchase from.

"I honestly won't buy a tail from her until she fixes the mess she's in. I understand she needs money, but taking more and more orders just piles onto the mess, it doesn't help you sort it out and charging $500 for a full silicone tail seems to be underselling it by a lot, so honestly to me it raises a red flag that she may be getting desperate for money rather than actually want to fultill the orders properly."

Kanti - I have to agree with you. I know several people who have requested a refund and basically been told that they will get it when she feels like giving them. This should raise red flags for anyone considering purchasing from them. I have checked out the cost of Dragon Skin Silicone. Even at an extremely low wholesale cost (very large quantity purchases required), it does seem hard to believe that they are making any money at all with what they are selling them for. But, ultimately, that is their business decision.

My ranting is done...

[Kanti]

Wow reading that comment again made me lose braincells.
I had actually forgot just how arrogant and condescending that post actually was.
And wow for everyone else shaming me for "pretending I know what Raina's motives were". Then let's hear you all complain about Raina's massive hubris in this little piece of gold right here


honestly, I get your "grroup" wants people to stop ordering fromn fishbutts because of a multitude of reasons, so just say that. the pretending to be potential customers, the fake accounts from others... it's getting old

And Raina doesn't have to apologize for that massive BS?
COMMUNITY VALUES AT THEIR BEST
(by the way, still waiting on that "video proof" that shows of all those fake accounts)

And yea, Whisper, most people would agree that you're more than allowed to be suspicious of Stevi at this point, especially since we have forums now dedicated to people asking whether or not they should get a tail from Stevi, or if people have even received their refunds yet. I have yet to hear from someone who has received their tail OR a refund.

[Elle]

Yo Kanti!!!!! I have just one thing to say....... Oh please, can't we all just get along

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Winged Mermaid]

You guys are still at it? Things have been very intense in here lately. I think this thread needs to be closed for the weekend. Go out and get some fresh air, clear your heads, let your thoughts settle :)

[Winged Mermaid]

I have something important I need to address with the community. I know there was a fiasco with FishButts back in January in terms of them having a page with a false name (fan page) posting aggressively on their wall. I wasn't on at the time it happened, but I knew about 5 different people that were and saw the whole thing. I didn't take judgment becuase I did not see things for myself, but I watched the situation unfold and tried to moderate best I could given the situations that followed. Recently this was brought up again on the forums and the same subject was posted on at least once a day until I closed the threads myself. Even then I have received PMs about it. Honestly it has never really died down, and all of this three months later, is still going on and pitting people against each other. A couple of days ago I got a message from someone who got screenshots and wished to share them with me to put this whole situation to rest. If the current situation and history is any indicator this will not die down- it will be brought up again and again. I can't sit on these screen shots while that happens. People have posted/requested that they want proof, so I will show the proof I have been given.

I contacted this person and offered them a comprise for them to come forth first, as I felt it was the right thing to do. I was met with legal threats, which was very disappointing.

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[Morticia Mermaid]

I will be contacting my attorney to be requesting from Facebook regarding that account. I have NEVER used that picture as my profile picture. Nor did I do what I am being accused of. You, Iona, of all people should know that it's not exactly hard for people to steak a picture of yours and create an account in your name to frame you.

[Whisper]

Bad photoshop job Iona. You really should of looked at all the information sent to you. And you did not offer a compromise - you offered threats.

You really need to look up what libel is and defamation.

Anyone that believes this is an idiot. It is sad that you do, especially with the evidence presented to you. Lynn Bailey is a friend of Stevi's that is a photographer.

You really should of spent some time researching instead of accusing.

[Winged Mermaid]

Sorry guys, there are witnesses too. 2 confirmed, 3 more I'm waiting on. You said you never used that profile picture. Right then I went and took a screen shot of it. A few, actually. Oh look, now it's not there anymore! Who is the liar here?

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[Kanti]

Hmmm.. Well not saying this is true or false, but honestly I don't see why there's such a concern to bring this out to the community when Raina was on her own account bad mouthing people and she gets no public shaming? Not to mention several people had problems with Raina's actions and came out and said so yet no action was taken by you.. Not even a freaking mention of it. What's going on here that's a danger to the community? She made a fake account to tell people Stevi is a scammer for her recent actions, which was taken care of by simply blocking her which is even shown in the screenshot?

Why are you so one sided about all this? Another actual problem that was happening on the community was Nerine being completely rude and harassing towards me and you didn't so much as give her a talking to, yet defending Fishbutts is your top priority even though Stevi isn't even a member on here..

[Winged Mermaid]

Lately the only thing that Raina did here was post a letter about how she realized that you were right about her behavior, that she didn't realize it, and she was working to change it. She didn't even respond whenever you picked apart her post, which came off as aggressive to me, to avoid the drama. And you know full well I talked to both Nerine and Raina and banned Nerine for a week for her behavior. Now you're saying "you didn't so much as give her a talking to".

Kanti not a week ago you were saying again and again and again to post the proof. Now that it's posted you're ignoring it saying "I don't see why there's such a concern to bring this out to the community" and changing the subject to something else. Well, you said it 12 times- now here's your proof.



2. It is baiting. There is absolutely no excuse or mistaking it. The thing you said about "someone's making fake accounts to make comments on Stevi's wall how immature of them! And a huge waste of time [insert smiley]" was completely uncalled for. Not only did you have no proof and fail to present any, but RIGHT when your target (Ayla I'm assuming) responded you jumped to conclusions, saying SHE herself had fake accounts and then went on a completely dramatic rant about how she "had no life" or something.

3. BUT if that is true, please address that issue right now. Show us the proof for the false accounts supposedly made by her, as you said you had video of that. If not, I will assume it was false.

4. Also, if you REALLY cared about getting information about "behavior that is detrimental to our community" then you should have gone straight to the drama post and said names CLEARLY like we did for you. Not hide around a vague post that's somewhat calling someone out but doing it in a manner that's passive agressive instead of being brave enough to just come out and say so.





In Raina's exceptionally dramatic and confrontational post she made she literally bragged about how she had a "video showing" that Aela or someone else was responsible for making fake accounts. So it was NOT a "oh I can't share it wouldn't be nice!" it's a "don't challenge me or I'll rat you out because I HAVE proof" which I'd actually like to see now.





As for the "proof" nonsense that was mainly because she was being aggressive towards another member, claiming she had "video proof" that they did something wrong and that she could show it to everyone. I'm sort of saying "well if you have it, present it?" because I honestly am not sure how she even figured that out, and if she did, great, but she needs to SHOW it if she's making the claim that it exists.

That's like me going to court and accusing someone of a murder and when they say "Oh do you have proof?" I say "Hell yea I have a knife with blood and their fingerprints!" and then when asked to show it I say something like "Oh but I don't NEED to show it to you". That's basically what's been going on over and over in this topic. People make extravagant claims and say they're right, when you ask for "proof" they say they "don't need to explain themselves". And that's fine but then either get out of here if you're not going to say why, or why would you even make the claim in the first place if you weren't willing to show the proof??




Yea that's what I was saying.
If you have proof, show us.

Well even so I was not approving of how Raina handled that situation. It was on a regular thread and she got passive aggressive and started a fight instead of taking it to the drama forum and simply avoiding it by posting the video.

That was basically a response to Iona, who claimed that Raina didn't actually WANT to show any proof of anything and that she would be "infringing someone's privacy" when you can see, in her post, she is very aggressive towards the person she claims has fake accounts and THEN even goes on to blatanly call them out for it. Which is FINE except you need to do it in the drama thread, you don't need to be so aggressive and rude when you say it, and you actally need to HAVE proof for it.




(by the way, still waiting on that "video proof" that shows of all those fake accounts)

[Kanti]

That's fine, I recognize it as proof, but you didn't answer my question which is more related to the "concerns for the community"..

Why is this a priority to expose when you do nothing to correct the problems with people who are ACTUALLY in our community..

[Winged Mermaid]

Did nothing? Really? I took action on a member's account, I talked to that member and the other. I addressed your concerns. I even followed up on concerns you displayed for Morticia to make sure all was taken care of as best it could be given the circumstances. This was a concern because I stated in my post people were bringing it up every day MONTHS later, and it was pitting people against each other becuase the truth was unknown. Now the truth is known. And actually Stevi is in the community and does have accounts here. 1 for her mermaid persona, 1 for Fish Butts. She just hasn't posted since drama started getting ugly. A wise decision in my opinion.

I will not argue over this with you when I have explained myself a great many times to you.

[Kanti]

Publicly bringing this out as a community concern is giving it a LOT more attention than privately and supposedly talking to Nerine and Raina..

You'd prefer to make a large post saying that this is something that "needs to be addressed" and make it a huge deal, and again, Stevi doesn't need to be defended.. She has an account but as far as I've seen she hasn't posted in a year.. So apparently you value people who don't post for a year vs people who post everyday and are actually being abused publicly in forums?

This was an issue that was solved by Stevi by herself by blocking someone, so why is this even an issue, as I said to Raina ages ago when telling her to basically mind her own business and that there was no drama or even reason to bring it up because Stevi could solve the issue without drama by simply BLOCKING THE PEOPLE. Raina wanted to create drama by exposing instead of just doing the smart thing and saying "just keep blocking them and they will give up". It was of course something that Raina wanted to bring up to make Stevi seem like she "wasn't such a bad guy" and that she actually didn't have as many bad customers yet even months later she is still having people being blocked from her page who are customers.
I don't care I'm not repeating this AGAIN for the millionth time, obviously no one even reads what I say anyway.

I would have liked to be defended and shown this sort of priority just a week ago, but it never did happen. I'm sure a lot of people would have liked Raina to be publicly addressed and her behavior be mentioned a "serious matter that needs to be discussed" especially since it happened more than once. Hell, I had to argue and basically beg you to do something about Nerine as she clearly broke several rules.

[Winged Mermaid]

You didn't have to beg me. You just opted to send me over 15 messages in 24 hours while I told you I was waiting on Malinghi for approval for action on Nereine's account. You chose to continue to badger me about it when I told you it was going to take some time to get a hold of him, explain, and work out a punishment. And if you hold yourself to the same as you hold Raina you bait just as much if not more so than she does. At least she apologized for it and explained herself. Raina posted about this whole ordeal because this was not the first time this has happened- many people have made fake accounts or pages to harass people, and it needs to stop. Her point was that if we don't call them out it will never stop. I've said several times now that this was about the community and clearing up the fights and misconceptions. So let me make it clear- this is not about Stevi or Fishbutts. This is about settling a dispute that's gone on nearly 3 months now, pitting people against each other for a untold truth. Now the truth is out there. You are trying to discredit me to distract from what's really going on with half truths, and I don't appropriate that. I've done the best I can to see to your concerns, I even spent hours trying to fix PMs for you after you set of the anti spam software with sending a ton of PMs in a day with links. Which you said you had no problems with and someone else had to come to me to let me know what was really going on so I could fix it. So you lied to me saying you had no problems, then went on the other forum and lied about me saying I did it on purpose to make me look bad (yes, people on there send me screen shots too). You're treading thin ice, Kanti.

[Kanti]

WOW Seriously Iona?
I don't have access to the thread? I guess when someone provides too well of a counter argument the only option is to silence them?
How very sad that you have to resort to limiting free speech to push your agenda!

If you want to clear up fights address Raina, the person who people have been saying they have problems with. The only other people have had problems with are Fishbutts.

I don't appreciate you mocking me and my problem by saying I was "badgering" you about something that was actually problematic. And yes I actually did send you a lot of messaged because I saw you online and taking the time to post things while ignoring me..

And I honestly don't care what you see me say because I don't say anything I need to hide. The forum is private so we don't have nonsense like this happening and it can actually be controlled properly. I am not "treading on thin ice" either as I am only saying what I think, not being disrespectful NOR breaking any rules. So I honestly don't even know what you're talking about with that. I am saying your priorities are awful.

You publicly shame someone who made a fake account almost 3 months ago who used it to comment on Fishbutts page and was blocked immediately after is not anything that's bothering the community. It's bothering you, Raina and anyone who wants to defend Fishbutts.

I was being publicly harassed, Raina baited posts starting incredible amounts of drama and several members complained about her attitude and behavior yet you are nowhere to be found and claim to shame people in private when you take time to come out here and write a whole paragraph about something that ended the 3 months ago that it started.

[Winged Mermaid]

I explained all of these thins to you multiple times over PM and/or on the thread. You're posting he same things over and over that I have already explained you pretending I didn't. Again, trying to discredit me and my actions with half truths. I will not be walked all over.

It's in the Rules. "Any continued disagreements or harassments by a user in certian parts of the forum may have their permissions to that part of the forum suspended or revoked. Same goes for Private Message privileges and other privileges on the site. If the admins feel a user/users are causing issues in a particular thread they may be banned from that thread." You were banned from the drama threads, and will be until further notice. I need to get a hold of the other Admin to sort out what will be done. If you try and reply to a thread you're banned from one more time I will ban your account.

Also note that the drama threads are no long accessible to guests- I have had this request from several users and agreed it was a good idea to cut back on drama. With updates to the software I gained this ability today and I think it's a good decision.

[Whisper]

That's fine, I recognize it as proof, but you didn't answer my question which is more related to the "concerns for the community"..

Why is this a priority to expose when you do nothing to correct the problems with people who are ACTUALLY in our community..


I don't recognize it as proof, because a lot of the people here are nothing more then a bunch of backstabbing guppies that thrive on chaos. It is sad that Iona chose not to do the research to see that Stevi has a friend by the name that she says Anna was using. Iona has always been onesided in everything. All of this is extremely sad.

Why do so many of you view what Morti is doing as a threat? Why do you see a need to knock her down, when she has purposely stayed away from here (specific areas) and stayed away from Fishbutts page? Are you really that jealous? So very sad in deed.

[Whisper]

Well done Iona - You have now opened yourself and anyone involved with this site to a libel and defamation suit. Really should of done your research on the names involved. Lynn Bailey is a friend of Stevi's and is a photographer... Anyone can grab a photo from someones facebook page when it is public and add it to any screen shot document they want..

I really thought you were smarter then this. Crap goes on with Raina for months... Morticia stays away from certain threads for months and now that she has publicly announced that she is leaving her job to work her business full-time, you pull this out. WOW! I really am amazed at just how low some people will sink to try and ruin someone they view as a threat.

So very sad indeed.

[Ayla of Duluth]

I don't have enough popcorn for this, shits getting pretty stressful in here...

[Winged Mermaid]

I've "always" been one sided? Looking below your username, you've only been a member since January, and remembering back your account was created in the middle of this very drama involving FishButts. Ever since then when there's drama Morticia doesn't post, but you do. I sincerely mean no disrespect, but honestly how can you say that I'm "always one sided" given that knowledge? :/ I addressed Morticia's concerns when she came to me, I even came to her when others displayed concern for her to make sure everything was okay. I even came to her before posting this with a compromise becuase I thought that was the right thing to do, instead of just posting it without contacting her.

I posted screen shots of happenings on a public forum (which Facebook is) that was available for all the public to see. That is legal. As I said, there are witnesses as well. You can't charge someone for that, and even if you could, a subpoena of Facebook will show all of the actions that the screencap shows. I think it speaks volumes that Morticia will lie when presented with the truth- even leaving the page conflict out if it, like she lied about the profile picture and then deleted it to make it look true. Why would an innocent person do that? I know she's your daughter, but that doesn't give you the right to accuse someone of forgery when a ugly truth is brought to light about her. Morticia is not a threat to me. I've said it before, I'll say it again- I'm glad for the success of anyone in the community, whether I agree with them on a personal level or not. Mermaiding is bigger than -me-, it's bigger than -you-, but we all make it up together, and so I will always be glad for things that drive it forward into a positive light. And she should remember, that this too will pass if she just lets it. This wasn't the first tailmaker drama/fiasco, and it won't be the last.


I didn't do this FOR FishButts, I didn't do this AGAINST Anna/Morticia. I did this because people were constantly fighting with each other over lack-of-truths and half-truths. People burning bridges and spreading hate over something they didn't even know if it was true or not. Also becuase I'm tired of people creating alternate usernames, accounts, and pages to harass others in the community. This has been going on for years. I've been busting false profiles since MerYuku, becuase I believe it's wrong to hide behind the internet to spread lies or to bully someone. We have the drama thread here so we can expose this stuff, and work out disagreements. Keeping it all under the surface and "behind the scenes" talking to each other just spreads hatred and burns bridges on information that may not even be true, or only half true. I wanted this to be a safe place for people to do that. I covered all of this in this post (http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?1679-%28%28-The-Soapbubble-Opera-Drama-Bubble-%29%29&p=66498&viewfull=1#post66498 (http://mernetwork.com/index/showthread.php?1679-%28%28-The-Soapbubble-Opera-Drama-Bubble-%29%29&p=66498&viewfull=1#post66498)). And as I've said there, I've seen people in this community hate each other years over a misunderstanding, only to find out after years of that, that it was over nothing. I didn't want the same thing happening again. Again from that post, "I'd rather MerNetwork be full of drama so it can be worked out than have a community that's full of needless hate."

[-Annwyn-]

I think it speaks volumes that Morticia will lie when presented with the truth- even leaving the page conflict out if it, like she lied about the profile picture and then deleted it to make it look true. Why would an innocent person do that? I know she's your daughter, but that doesn't give you the right to accuse someone of forgery when a ugly truth is brought to light about her. Morticia is not a threat to me.


This reminds me of the time that Raina openly groomed Kae Leah and convinced this forum that I was harassing her with a fake profile. I wasn't. And now Morticia is being accused of things she DID NOT do, and I believe her wholeheartedly. Morticia just told you that the name you are accusing her of sockpuppeting is a real-life friend of Stevis.
We have better things to do than go around creating fake profiles for jolly times, when we are perfectly mature and capable of saying similar sentiments under our own names anyway (just saying).
I totally believe Morticia and I think we are being framed. By who though?. But it wasn't her, i didn't create fake profiles either and I find it sick that you're being played Iona. Totally played.
Now I did attach a screen capture to this post, but I write this on an iPad so if it doesn't show up I will find a way to show it.

[SeaGlass Siren]

I'm pretty sure u can find someone using multiple accounts by looking at their ip addresses. Anyone with a computer background can easily look it up

[SeaGlass Siren]

I think it's just safer to assume that they did not make any fake accounts because there isn't any definitive proof besides images that may or may not have been altered.
Iona, I know you're just doing your job (and you need a pat on the back for all the crap you deal with), but I think Kanti made a valid point that one problem is being more prioritized by another. when you mentioned community, I think she took community as having to be present and active regardless if they have an account, and therefore if theyre not technically part if the community(if theyre not active and posting on the forums about anything) why is it a big priority to keep addressing the fishbutts thing? Maybe? Kanti am I on the right track here? I don't know I could be misinterpreting it.

Kanti, as far as we know Raina hasn't been (surprisingly I thought she would've posted something here when her name was mentioned) posting about anything and baiting people out for... I dunno a few weeks now? I could be wrong. So Iona is right: perhaps Raina took your advice and she's doing something to better herself because you were right. So I think that issue was solved.

And I agree with whisper when she says morti has been staying away to avoid problems. Just like Raina and Stevie. Because It's just unnecessary ... Though its really unnecessary to file a lawsuit against something petty ._. They've got bigger problems to deal with, like locking up murderers and rapists.

hi aela, we've never talked before. Can't say for certain if you and morti are being framed but I would like to think that you are being framed. By who and for what purpose, none of us know. But that's why I suggested doing the ip address thing if it really bothers you guys . Let me know if you've decided to do some sleuthing!

Hi Ayla, let's go out for a drink and maybe sip some Tuna coladas .

[Merman Arion]

I do not like all this negativity. in my opinion, girls fighting are scary but mermaids fighting are scarier... :(

I agree with MermaidAndrea about Raina. She didn't post anything recently in this thread so i believed she changed to be a greater person. Raina is a nice girl, i don't think she "bait out people" for nothing or fun. I don't know her personally but i like to believe that she is just passionate about mermaiding and that she feels maybe threatened when her name is up. She wants the truth out as much as everybody does but drama is drama and sometimes it needs to be out for the best, whether we like it or not, whether its right or wrong. Sometimes we need to talk to sort it out and get a peace of mind. :thumbs-up:

As for the fake accounts, i can't say much because i'm a newbie and i don't know anything about all the drama related here. But i fuckin' HATE those people whose life may be so miserable to do such a pathetic thing! I'm gay and we have so many fake accounts already in our dating websites that i want to scream and shout "GET THE FUCK OUT!" :headwall:
Fake accounts there, i can deal with that. Fake accounts in MerNetwork? I can not accept that because kids and adults's passion about mermaiding is at stake.

[Morticia Mermaid]

I have contacted an attorney this morning, and after discussing the situation with them they have agreed to submit a request to facebook for the records and information on that account. I was told, that because of the fact that I have never been an admin for a page called Lynn Bailey, whoever created the account can (and will be) charged with Identity theft. Which, just so everyone knows, is a federal offence and can result in jail time. All the info they need will be the IP address linked to that account/page. They have been provided with all the IP addresses from which I have accessed facebook. Just thought I would let you all know. I have also locked down my facebook account so that people cannot use me to keep stirring crap up. And the fact that someone would sink to stealing a photo of mine and making an account and page in my name seriously makes me wish I had never found this community to begin with.

My first couple months on this site, I was told of at least half a dozen people to avoid because they "start drama", honestly, they have been the only ones who have not been rude and backstabbing. This is the last I will be posting here. Iona, please expect a letter in the next couple weeks.

[Whisper]

And I agree with whisper when she says morti has been staying away to avoid problems. Just like Raina and Stevie. Because It's just unnecessary ... Though its really unnecessary to file a lawsuit against something petty ._. They've got bigger problems to deal with, like locking up murderers and rapists.

hi aela, we've never talked before. Can't say for certain if you and morti are being framed but I would like to think that you are being framed. By who and for what purpose, none of us know. But that's why I suggested doing the ip address thing if it really bothers you guys . Let me know if you've decided to do some sleuthing!

Hi Ayla, let's go out for a drink and maybe sip some Tuna coladas .

I wish I could agree with you regarding an attorney, however - What certain people have chosen to do, is attempt to defame Morti because he business is becoming successful and they view it as a threat. They know that she has stayed away - so who is/are the people creating the drama. They are attempting to ruin her business with lies and created scandal.

[Whisper]

I posted screen shots of happenings on a public forum (which Facebook is) that was available for all the public to see. That is legal. As I said, there are witnesses as well. You can't charge someone for that, and even if you could, a subpoena of Facebook will show all of the actions that the screencap shows. I think it speaks volumes that Morticia will lie when presented with the truth- even leaving the page conflict out if it, like she lied about the profile picture and then deleted it to make it look true. Why would an innocent person do that?

She didn't delete pictures - she locked down her facebook account. Do you have any idea how easy it is to take someones picture on facebook and post it into someones account, so they can use it? If you know how to track IP Addresses then you do know how easy it is. Heck - If I wanted to, I could take a picture of you and create a fake account to harrass someone, but that would be wrong. Just so everyone knows - NO I HAVE NOT DONE WHAT I JUST SAID!

You are right that Facebook is a public forum. However, taking someones picture and using it create a fake account or even use it on an existing account to represent a picture of a page administrator or to represent someone is identity theft.


I even came to her before posting this with a compromise becuase I thought that was the right thing to do, instead of just posting it without contacting her.

And from what I read, you didn't come to her and say - hey I was shown this, I want to know what's going on - You came to her and said - you either do it my way or I will. You were not willing to listen to anything or the evidence that she gave you to show it wasn't her, that the profile actually belonged to one of Stevi's friends.. How does that not make it one sided.

Someone got you stirred up and you took the bait. Did you see the IP Address associated with this? Did you personally see this page or a 'screen shot'? Did you research or even look into the information that Morti gave to you? Let me guess - No, no & NO!

I agree with Aela - you are being played and they are doing it well.

[AniaR]

Instead or arguing about it, why not simply let the legal system do the work, and the truth come out one way or another. A subpeona of facebook should do the trick.

[SeaGlass Siren]

That works too :|

[MaskedNightingale]

Am I the only one who sees a random bulldozer next to this post? O,,o
:D *popcorn munching in background* Nope...you are not going crazy, I see it too :)

[Fifi Tigg]

How to deal with an over enthusiastic fan?
This fan is constantly messaging, commenting and generally stalking my personal page, business pages and Emily's page.
its nothing mean or nasty but just constantly wanting to talk and call.
I have made it clear we are busy and that we can maybe have another chat in a few days but this fan just talks again as soon as we are online. Help!

[SeaGlass Siren]

Maybe block?

[Miyu]

I have friends, who I know personally, who do that kind of thing Fifi...sometimes I just have to ignore them until I'm ready to talk, especially when they keep asking me questions they should be googling... -_-;

[AniaR]

you really do have to block. I had to block a few. because they get to the point they're harassing and not respecting page rules or boundaries. Honestly, it doesn't stop them they still find ways to contact you -_- but dont ever feel bad about blocking, it needs to be done sometimes. I have 3 who are blocked because they're so obsessive.

[Mermaid Danielle]

Maybe try explaining to them that you can't talk every time you are online/set a day that might be good for them to reach you (ie. 'I'm really busy most days, but the third saturday of each month usually is less hectic'), or something along those lines. Just make it clear that this doesn't mean that you can talk to them always at that time, just it might be a better time to reach you. Otherwise blocking them would probably be a good idea.

[Mer_Adella]

Ok so here is something that I am going to rant about and I'm not sure of all the details, but what not.

With MerFest rising to the top and MerPalooza falling towards the bottom, this is a great thing. But as I remember hearing, security was there at the event in NC to prevent certain people from coming and to help regulate drama. As I remember being discussed, Mertailor was on that list as he caused a lot of problems at MerPalooza. I'm not saying I know this for sure as I have never attended either event but that's what a lot of people said. And this is my rant. And as well as Matty and Eric being banned from her and other groups as well for their behavior...why is Matty allowed into the NCMerFest group on FB??? Especially when he is talking about entering the tailmaker contest? If everyone is upset about they way they act towards mermaid and mermen and other tailmakers...why are they allowed to go?

I want to go to Merfest but honestly I am worried that their attitudes won't change and will make the whole event a dramafest. I just bother's me that with everyone having problems with one or the other of them, why are they allowed to go? I'm not saying that someone said they should or shouldn't be included, I am just wondering why, if they have caused soo much drama, they would be allowed?

[Ariadne]

I actually noticed this as well and wondered the EXACT same thing...I thought it was very strange that people who were apparently purposely not invited to attend due to the reputation of their appalling behavior at prior events are now not only attending but involved in planning next year's event? What the what?

No doubt there is much about this situation that I don't know and I'm sure there must be some kind of understanding and/or agreement that was made? No idea, but I am planning to attend next year and will more than likely have my kiddos with me...MerFest was billed as being family-friendly and this past week all I see are posts about how drunk we are all going to get with the "lush." Oh fun. Not that I don't love to kick back with some grown-up kool-aid, but ya know. Do I need to be concerned about them seeing a drunk public temper tantrum? Scary.

Also, who the heck talks with smiley faces after :) every :) other :) word? :) Oookay...

So basically to those of us who are not in the know it reads like this:

MerPalooza and other events + presence of dramatic people = bad behavior = bad event = bad rep
MerFest + list of banned dramatic people = great event = lots of excitement = can't wait for next year
MerFest 2015 + invites banned people + banned people now all about helping to plan event = do what?

P.S. Apologies for any snarkiness...there has been wine.

[deepblue]

^That's a little headdesky. Or a lot. Why mess with a successful formula?

[Mer_Adella]

^That's a little headdesky. Or a lot. Why mess with a successful formula?

Im confused are you agreeing with us?

[deepblue]

Sorry- yes, I'm agreeing with you.

[Mer_Adella]

Sorry- yes, I'm agreeing with you.

Sorry it was just confusing as I read it.

But it yes I don't understand it all and I am glad that I am not the only one. I had a couple of friends call me crying from the last merpalooza event cus of the way met tailor and his fans treated them (they were vendors). Why would anyone allow someone like that to attend an event ? I don't want to come to an event and be disappointed bcus of someone causing drama. It almsit seems to me that they protest too much. Acting nice to show they have changed to gain acceptance. But that is my observation.

[Ariadne]

Whew! So glad I'm not the only one...I was beginning to think I had read everything wrong and I didn't want to sound like a total beyotch by being all "da fuq are ya'll doing???" So yay, can I sit with you? I just love my merlfriends...and wine! :D

[Mermaid Lorelei]

Hmm, interesting question. I suppose you could ask Christomer, as he is the head representative of Merfest.

[Mer_Adella]

Whew! So glad I'm not the only one...I was beginning to think I had read everything wrong and I didn't want to sound like a total beyotch by being all "da fuq are ya'll doing???" So yay, can I sit with you? I just love my merlfriends...and wine! :D

Of course I'll being the moscato

[Merman Arion]

Ok so here is something that I am going to rant about and I'm not sure of all the details, but what not.

With MerFest rising to the top and MerPalooza falling towards the bottom, this is a great thing. But as I remember hearing, security was there at the event in NC to prevent certain people from coming and to help regulate drama. As I remember being discussed, Mertailor was on that list as he caused a lot of problems at MerPalooza. I'm not saying I know this for sure as I have never attended either event but that's what a lot of people said. And this is my rant. And as well as Matty and Eric being banned from her and other groups as well for their behavior...why is Matty allowed into the NCMerFest group on FB??? Especially when he is talking about entering the tailmaker contest? If everyone is upset about they way they act towards mermaid and mermen and other tailmakers...why are they allowed to go?

I want to go to Merfest but honestly I am worried that their attitudes won't change and will make the whole event a dramafest. I just bother's me that with everyone having problems with one or the other of them, why are they allowed to go? I'm not saying that someone said they should or shouldn't be included, I am just wondering why, if they have caused soo much drama, they would be allowed?


I actually noticed this as well and wondered the EXACT same thing...I thought it was very strange that people who were apparently purposely not invited to attend due to the reputation of their appalling behavior at prior events are now not only attending but involved in planning next year's event? What the what?

No doubt there is much about this situation that I don't know and I'm sure there must be some kind of understanding and/or agreement that was made? No idea, but I am planning to attend next year and will more than likely have my kiddos with me...MerFest was billed as being family-friendly and this past week all I see are posts about how drunk we are all going to get with the "lush." Oh fun. Not that I don't love to kick back with some grown-up kool-aid, but ya know. Do I need to be concerned about them seeing a drunk public temper tantrum? Scary.

Also, who the heck talks with smiley faces after :) every :) other :) word? :) Oookay...

So basically to those of us who are not in the know it reads like this:

MerPalooza and other events + presence of dramatic people = bad behavior = bad event = bad rep
MerFest + list of banned dramatic people = great event = lots of excitement = can't wait for next year
MerFest 2015 + invites banned people + banned people now all about helping to plan event = do what?

P.S. Apologies for any snarkiness...there has been wine.

Welcome to the club. I totally agree with both of you. This makes me wonder, I'm baffled about the whole thing.
I might not come if this goes on. I understand Christomer aka Merking playing the Switzerland card but I fear that this is going to bite him in the ass. Didn't Eric screwed him over with his first mertailor tail that he ordered? Wasn't it the reason why he went to Finfolk Productions instead? Boy.. Merking sure is forgiving easily and I understand the whole "we should let this go and move on" thing but still, this is Eric we are talking about. :crazy:
Merking visited Eric and Matty during his trip in Florida and I'm not sure if the warning really worked. How phony could that picture of the three of them smiling could be?! Eric and Matty are having fun fooling everybody on Facebook, Merking included. If they are coming to Merfest, that is like a big F U to Tom Shouse after the Robert Short drama that Eric just pulled and we just can't have that, can we?
I'm really pissed everytime I see Matty commenting on the Merfest FB group. Everytime! His fucking smileys get on my nerve and his "LMFAO" are SOOO fake. Besides, what's up with his "I wanna help the community so bad, we should do this and do that" acting? On the post about Hobby Lobby shutting down, Matty said, I quote :

"Iona, Jesse, wanna see if there is anything we can do with the community to help them out? Maybe post this link on all of our pages and the forums?"

I was really dumbfounded when I read that. I was like "really Matty? Are you for real? You even asked Iona who got you on nasty behavior many times here? You wanna help a community that your boyfriend despise so much to a point of even creating HIS merforum?"
Honestly, I'm not buying it. Call me bitter but to me, it just sounds like he's trying way too hard to be sincere.

I don't understand why it would be so difficult to ban him again. This is exactly why Merfest has been a success. There was no drama AT ALL contrary to Merpalooza. Nobody missed him and this is exactly part of the reasons why he threw a tantrum again, acting on his tourettes, to get attention again. If they come, I really hope that Merking will throw them the fuck out if they dare once to start drama, gossip or anykind. I'm pretty sure that they are going to be on Merking's watch constantly in order to make people feeling at ease that nothing bad will happen. Even so, I still don't want Eric to come because Raina might not then and perhaps other mers who don't want to share the same walls and pools within his presence. This is just not gonna be like the first Merfest, it's gonna be different. Are we all willing to take the risks? I'm not sure. I wanna be the bigger person though and try but I don't know. This is like a year ahead of us and a lot of things can still happen. Drama can still happen.

*sighs*

[Elle]

yes...it's scary because of people negative experiences. But I think that we have to trust that our dear Merking knows what he's doing. Merpalooza was not well thought out or executed. Merfest had a much better response than Merpalooza did in it's first year.
Christomer has shown that he is a fantastic co-ordinator. Fins crossed this doesn't end in tears, and it all works out well

[PearlieMae]

Arion, I know I'm not your type, but I just had to give you a big, wet 17923

[Jessica]

Arion you have to come!!! I'm coming this time and I'm even going to learn a little French for you!! Don't let the possibility of someone starting drama stop you from meeting all your mermaid friends :) you're the cutest merman ever and we would all love to meet you! :hug:

[Merman Arion]

@ PearlieMae, Jessica

I'm feeling you are trying to buy me with affection ;)

Keep going, in the long run, this might work lol :lol:

[Ariadne]

Oh yes, my dear Frenchie, you must come! We must not let one or two bad apples spoil our pie! <3

But seriously, how much sucking up does it take to get off the banned list? Wonder who else was on it who may be popping up as well?

And I agree, I think Christomer is an amazing person and MerKing, but as much responsibility as he will have that weekend keeping everything running smoothly, there will be no way he can keep an eye on troublemakers at all times...it's just not possible, no matter how vigilant. I just hate to think of anyone being treated the way Adella's friends were and for MerFest's shining start to become tarnished...

[Mer_Adella]

@ Merman Arion: Bonjour! Je m'appelle Adella. Como talle vu? (i know a little french ;) My gma spoke german, my other spoke polish, one aunt french, one aunt spanish, my mother english and they all understood eachother and soon enough I could too. I am taking lessons just to brush up)

I understand all the concern and that is why I posted here. No one was saying anything about it and randomly one day I noticed Matty was posting away like CREY-CREY on the NCMerfest group on FB and I was like "WAHHHH?" Hence the first posting here. I was actually afraid t hat some people would be like "Shut up adella! Give the guy a chance! quit being so hateful!" But I took a chance and am VERY relieved that I wasn't the only one thinking about the whole thing.

Yes our MerKing is wonderful in planning and a good judge of character. But I just hope that it doesn't ruin everything. I would LOVE to meet Raina and Iona but honestly with all the problems they had with Matty and Eric, if they weren't to go that would put a damper on my time as I have grown to know them personally and want to meet them so badly. I'm not saying that I would have a horrible time if they didn't go but it would be a buzz kill.

My only other thought is that if they go, and start causing drama, how many people would surround them and basically tell them that "there are a lot more of us than you"? I don't think we would need security HA!

And yes, with all that Matty is posting on FB and stuff it makes me rub my chin and go "Me thinks he doth protest too much!" because of all his commenting his "smilies" (ugh) and his "we need to help" comments. I appreciate the trying to help and keep the community going but it seems like he is on there too much. More than the rest of us at times.

[Mer_Adella]

And I agree, I think Christomer is an amazing person and MerKing, but as much responsibility as he will have that weekend keeping everything running smoothly, there will be no way he can keep an eye on troublemakers at all times...it's just not possible, no matter how vigilant. I just hate to think of anyone being treated the way Adella's friends were and for MerFest's shining start to become tarnished...

yes the way he/she was treated was horrible. A few fans bumped into his/her table and knocked some merchandise over practically destorying it. Cracking a few things and all that. And the fans just looked at him/her and smiled as if to say "oh did I DO that?" Which is uncalled for. Seriously. I can guarentee that if that happened to the Mertailor he would have cried foul!

And I hate to say this, but I know that Mertailor is a large business (as is Jesse's, Raven's, Mike's, Mernation, etc) but who really needs a large vendor platform with rocks and a neon sign that says "mertailor"? maybe that is just me. I firmly believe that your customers/fans will know which booth is yours even if you only have a small 8.5"x11" piece of paper that says "MerTailor". (sorry that was off topic but its been bugging me since I saw MerPalooza pictures)

[AniaR]

If people have these concerns it would be great if they let christomer know. A few people on fb already have but essentially everyone is coming to me expecting me to do it
I dont think its fair for it to all land on me
It looks like I am the one with the problem and I'm making it up.

There's a lot I could say about this but I already get too many emails about and from them

It would just be really good if people could address this with christomer themselves.

I believe he's in a tough spot in the middle and I know its not so much he or anyone invited them but they invited themselves.



Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[Mer_Adella]

Thanks for the advice raina...i may just let christomer know. I didn't mean for it to sound like it was falling on you. It was just my concern about them going.

[Mermaid Adriel]

Keep calm, we still have a year as long as things will be settled! (grammatical mistakes, sorry)

[Merman Arion]

I believe he's in a tough spot in the middle and I know its not so much he or anyone invited them but they invited themselves.

I remember last year that Christomer sent on Facebook an invitation to all tail-makers around INCLUDING Eric BUT I know that this year, he certainly didn't invite them.

They did themselves :rolleyes:

[Mer_Adella]

I can understand on sending an invite to all tail makers, but maybe that was just a formality or a way of saying "yes you are a tailmaker too, we can't exclude you" which I understand. But that doesn't mean they HAVE to attend the whole thing. But whatever, if everyone feels this bad about it or is a little leary about the whole thing, just let Christomer know your feelings since he is the MerKing as well as the coordinator of Merfest

[Ariadne]

Hee! Seriously? So your name is literally on a piece of paper given to security at the door of an event and they are instructed not to allow you admittance because your behavior at similar events as well as online is bad enough for not one or two but a whole lot of people to be concerned about your presence there...and the date for next year's event is announced and you say YES! I THINK WE WILL GO! AND BRING EVERYTHING WE OWN! AND FILM STUFF! AND INVENT NEW ACTIVITIES! SURELY THEY MISSED US! Aaaaand...that works?

Wonder if White House security knows this is the way things are supposed to happen...

[Ariadne]

Oh, and I have never spoken and/or messaged with Christomer before (hoped i would meet him at MerFest...sigh. Didn't make it.) and I didn't want my first intro with him to be a negative one, you know what I mean? If i had interacted with him before and he kind of knew who I was, I would have been the first to message him my concerns. I'm sure he would be a gentleman about it, I just didn't want to be a complete stranger being all up in his face about his choices...

I just met you
And this is crazy
but here's my problem
areyoureallyallowingnastypsycholooneytunesmileyfac eweirdosintotheeventiwanttoattendthatmightkeeppeop leiwanttomeetawaynowthatisthemostridiculousthing
(gasp)ihaveeverheard...

P.S. The above description is entirely based on my own impression from reading past posts and in no way reflects any personal experience of mine.

[AniaR]

I didn't mean you were making it fall to me. ;) its just really important people talk to him I can't do anything.

There was security for the event but not with the soul purpose of excluding eric.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[Merman Arion]

So your name is literally on a piece of paper given to security at the door of an event and they are instructed not to allow you admittance because your behavior at similar events as well as online is bad enough for not one or two but a whole lot of people to be concerned about your presence there...and the date for next year's event is announced and you say YES! I THINK WE WILL GO! AND BRING EVERYTHING WE OWN! AND FILM STUFF! AND INVENT NEW ACTIVITIES! SURELY THEY MISSED US! Aaaaand...that works?

Wonder if White House security knows this is the way things are supposed to happen...


I just met you
And this is crazy
but here's my problem
areyoureallyallowingnastypsycholooneytunesmileyfac eweirdosintotheeventiwanttoattendthatmightkeeppeop leiwanttomeetawaynowthatisthemostridiculousthing
(gasp)ihaveeverheard...

You just made me laughed like crazy :lol:

Love you too Ariadne :hug:

[Merman Arion]

@ Merman Arion: Bonjour! Je m'appelle Adella. Como talle vu? (i know a little french ;) My gma spoke german, my other spoke polish, one aunt french, one aunt spanish, my mother english and they all understood eachother and soon enough I could too. I am taking lessons just to brush up)

Ooooh NICE!!! :D
Bonjour Adella, je vais très bien merci beaucoup :hug:

I think it's gonna be fun to have a little french chat at Merfest together. Everyone is invited to join, I could teach some stuff ;)

[Ariadne]

Yes, Frenchie, please teach us! I need some culture! I took basic French in college, but I'm pretty sure I sound like the "French model" from the State Farm commercial...

Bawn-jewer, y'all! :mermaid kiss:

[AniaR]

So I was typing from my phone, I wanna clear up a few things that I can.

The security were there for everyone's benefit, after the request was made with concerns about the history of certain people who were attending. Mervert style personalities. As far as I know, there were NO issues at merfest 2014. Which is great. I personally thanked the police officer and security officer I saw. They were very kind and non-judgemental and supportive. I did feel safer with them around as there was one individual who makes me concerned (not drama, I just feel very uncomfortable around this person)

As for Eric and Matty... ugh. I'm not even sure if I wanna touch this one with a ten foot poll. I've been a bit overwhelmed by those two since coming back from merfest, there was all the robert short vs thom drama, and then a few other things, and many people got upset about them being in the merfest group and talking about coming. In fact, I have 50 unread messages on the topic and honestly, I just don't have the energy to read them. I got many emails from eric and 1 from matty in the past few weeks all over the range of the usual.

There's a lot going on there. I feel like if I say "others are upset" some people will think I'm making it up, but, it's true. A lot of people feel given the recent drama that it's an insult to Thom to have him there.

Christomer is trying to be a neutral party. He wants everyone to get along, and I know he's met and spoken with Eric, and spoken with him other times. I sincerely think christomer is trying to lead Eric on a good path. I just don't believe personally for a second it'll work.

Matty sent me an apology email. It was a nice gesture. But... I have now 10 emails in a folder from the past few years, all apologies from eric and matty. The email read fairly identical to me from the last ones. I sincerely feel everytime I forgive these guys and allow them a chance to "turn a new leaf" that I get stabbed in the back. When the WORST drama happens to me, it's during times when I apparently have a truce with them. Whenever I have a "truce" period with them, I have removed my negative things from blogs and youtube as a gesture of goodwill, and I don't talk about them in any way that isn't positive. In short, I do all the work. If you look through the drama thread, you'll see many times when I've been attacked by one of them, it was during a truce period. The last time it happened, Eric approached me right before his big reveal on TLC and had a heart to heart. I agreed to give him a chance, and a few weeks later despite being silent about him, Matty teamed up with someone else (who will cause drama if I name names) and put me on a blackmail site made by the guy who was just arrested for "revenge porn" with my personal info. So for me, I do not feel like I owe them a chance or forgiveness. It has ALWAYS been a bad choice for me to do that.

So here's how I feel currently. 2015 is a long way away. If Matty and Eric are SINCERE and they really want to make things work with the community, then they should have no problem being kind to people and not attacking others in the next year. There was a lot of stuff that went down in 2014 that I know about that I'm not at liberty to say because of the involved parties. But it would blow your mind to know what I know about things that went down. So personally, I don't think they'll last a few months, LET ALONE A YEAR. If they can go the year being kind then you know what? Good for them. They can come and do their thing. Though granted, no one bought tails at NCMerfest. And there isn't space for his giant display.

I am very happy to be proven wrong. A lot of stress in my life would dissolve if Eric was kind to the community, didn't take advantage of people, didn't threaten people, didnt steal, and didn't harass. I think the whole community would be better for it. So you know what? I am more than welcome to let them try. I'll even buy em dinner if they go the whole year without any issues and win the community back over. I mean really, if you were to ask me what I want from Eric and why I call out his stuff? It's because I want him to be good to the community. there's really no other reason. I know he can do better, and I think it would change the whole community if he did.

But as it stands right now, people have valid reasons for not wanting them there. Personally, if I see them doing shit, apologizing, and keep doing shit, and still being allowed to go, I wont. I won't waste that much money and time to be around people who I feel are toxic. I dont think there is a person in this community who has forgiven them or given them more chances than I have honestly. I have folders and folders of emails.

I really urge people, if you have concerns, please go to the people with the power and save me a little stress and not me. I know it's not the people posting, but people read it. I have history with Eric but I don't like being the Eric go to girl. I can't change anything.

There's a lot of other stuff, but I can't really share without voiding the privacy of others and I'll leave it up to those parties to say what they will.

[PearlieMae]

You should change your signature to "Email me for booking only! All other email will be deleted!"

[Winged Mermaid]

I admire that ChristoMer is wanting to start with a clean slate- I really do, I think it's awesome. However.. it's a pretty big case of, "too little too late". This stuff has been going on for 8 years (10 for some), and the hurt that has been inflicted by him runs DEEP. ChristoMer is willing, the community.. not so much. I posted this in the NC Merfest group with the recent Thom and Eric drama, figure I'll post it here because it sums up my view of it pretty well.

"I do agree that this [drama with Eric, and now Matty] has been going on for YEARS, and I think the community is tired of it. We all try and move past it, turn the other cheek, not stoop to their level, take the higher road.. whatever you want to call it. But stuff like this happens over, and over, over and over! There have even been many times where he insists that he’s turning over a new leaf, starting fresh, that he’ll change or has changed, that he’s different. He never is. I seriously have lost count of how many times he’s said that (and even gone out of his way to announce it to the community), just to nearly immediately turn around and pull the same crap or worse. It’s been going on so long that people just have accepted that this is what he’s like. Well that’s fine- you probably should do that, because he’s illustrated over 8+ years in this community that he won’t change. But it’s NOT okay to ignore his horrendous behavior. People don’t want to say anything, but that just is reaffirming that he can continue what he’s doing and get away with it. When other people pull the same kind of stuff people will call them out and rip them to shreds, but when it comes to him they feel like they have to stay quiet, or people will actually tell others to shut up or stay quiet. Some of them even say that by implying that by a person calling him out on it that it is that person that is displaying the bad behavior. You know, rather than the actual bad behavior that Eric is displaying/has displayed. That’s not okay. I try and move on as much as the rest of you, but it’s become clear that this is a problem that is never going away- he’s not going to change. Maybe we should think about things involving the community with that in mind from now on. I’m not saying to hate and harass, but don’t dismiss it just because “That’s just what Eric does”. Ignoring the problem does not make it go away."

I agree with Raina. I'm happy to be proven wrong, especially in cases like these. I like to believe in the best in people (sometimes to a fault). Every time they say they're turning over a new leaf I sit down and hash out the crap in my brain so I can set it aside. But I never forget it, becuase I am always careful- and that's becuase of how many times I wasn't careful after giving new chances by one or both of them, and have it come back and bite me in the ass.

As it is right now, I agree that the things said in the NC Merfest by Matty seem really forced and fake. But I retain an open mind, just a careful one. Maybe he's gotta fake it to make it, and if he DOES make it then I'll be glad I kept that openness. If not.. then I'll be glad I went forward with caution.

I agree that if things really do turn over this time then I will be one of the happiest ones to see it happen! God knows I've had my fair of stress with dealing with all of it, especially in seeing how much people in the community have been hurt. But if things continue with the previous pattern, I agree that going where there are toxic people who have seemingly hated my guts for 8 years.. the fest doesn't seem so great anymore.

But yes, if you don't feel comfortable having them there, SAY something to someone who can do something about it. ChristoMer would be the best one to speak to about it. I think there are a few other organizers- maybe someone can list who they are so they can be options to contact about this as well?

[Anahita]

Basically what I gather is we need to put on our big girl/boy tails and, if we have a problem with the idea of Eric and Matty being there, tell Christomer ourselves. Which makes sense to me, because, I mean, we're (mostly, I know we have a few merlings but they're all pretty darn mature) adults here, and in being adults, we really should be responsible to make our own voices heard - as that's OUR responsibility to ourselves.

The other thing about the apologizing, then the doing it all over again... Pardon if my translation is crappy, but this is something my mother always said when my sister and I were little and we would do something repeatedly that would upset her "I don't really give a damn if you say sorry. Saying sorry is easy; they're just words. If you really are sorry for what you've done, show me by realizing what you've done is wrong. Show me you're sorry by not doing it again."

So yeah, I mean, after 8+ years of the same problems, I'd be reluctant to trust this, too.

I think if I figure out whether or not I'm going this year to Merfest will result in whether or not I contact Christomer about my concerns. If I can arrange to go there, then I'll definitely let him know. But I also don't want to be one of those people who makes someone accommodate for them, then ends up not showing up.

[kudzu80]

I just, as a very angry husband and friend, just posted this to Eric. I have cleaned it up for posting here. Please come over to my page to take a peak at the original if you wish.

Oh Eric, where to begin with you. How about listening skills and reading comprehension. I know you read my comment on my wife’s page saying that any further conversation on this matter will be had through me. I meant that, FYI. Now that that’s out of the way, let us get through some of your questions and to the root of why we are here.
Per your post on my wife’s page you wonder how we got to where we are. Well, let’s start from the beginning. Merpalooza….we could go further, but this is where we come in.
Merpalooza , for my wife at least, was a nightmare. Why? You. You and your band of associates. You were exclusionary, rude, violent, and pushy. You cliqued up and treated those that weren’t with you like second class. You harassed and picked on one poor individual referring to the person as “Puff the Magic Dragon” because they were in a homemade walking tail, that the person was proud of. You did this behind their back, and just within enough ear shot that the person could hear you. Just like a true school yard bully. How dare you tear someone down to make yourself feel better, when that person is probably already low as it is. My wife did make a friend of one of your gang for a moment, until they were seen together. He was pulled away like the other cheerleaders saw one of their own making friends with the fat chick in school. I understand that you and your crew went so far as to knock over displays and trample others tails while in attendance. This is admittedly hearsay, but it’s come to the point where I’m more likely to believe the more heinous stories about you, rather than question them. You and your people made my wife’s first introduction to the mermaid world so uncomfortable that she came home and cried in my arms wondering if she really wanted to get into all this. Your behavior was so bad that it was inspiring! It inspired her to look up and get more involved with other Mermen and give them a voice. Yes, that’s right, your crappy behavior inspired my wife to give other Mermen as much of a voice as she could! Including the one you made fun of, just so people could see a good side of mermen. With all this it’s danged amazing that it’s taken me this long to confront you.
Let’s move on down the road to the latest and more pertinent issue. Using the Merpalooza experience as the base, let’s build this wall.
We went to the latest big mermaid convention with Thom in attendance and, despite our trepidation, had a freaking phenomenal time. The organizer put on a show for the ages and his hospitality went further than I would imagine any persons could. I say this because my wife was TERRIFIED that you, or people like you, would be all we found. We could not have been more wrong. The people, the company, the conversation, the drinks, the venue, the events, the hotel, amazing! There were also several conversations had about how much better, looser, drama free, and just happy the event was. One reason was noted for this,,,,,,,you weren’t there. We discovered that we weren’t the only ones concerned that things might go the way of Merpalooza and we weren’t the only ones surprised at how well things turned out.
At Merpalooza, according to what I am told, you were the “Belle of the Ball”. At the latest festival, Thom was the “Belle of the Ball”. That got all over you didn’t it? Thom got recognition. People were happy to meet him, talk with him, listen to him (that man can talk). It must have gotten all over you because a few days after we get home, this happens:
The Mertailor Eric Ducharme (https://www.facebook.com/mertailor) shared a link (http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.robertshort.com%2Fsplashc inemag.html&h=NAQHXWaYtAQGkl413_i9ileoCOFTdqGUlW-uoTXzeFBTjDQ&enc=AZOdvBIhS0Z0evHBf-CNRc40zkc0HQSfvH__dVL6FinDSiEoTwwWD8jbtnNWY3SXmJoj Poap4M1QewVKtNqsF9MR&s=1).
January 13 (https://www.facebook.com/mertailor/posts/557988514292790?stream_ref=10)
Hey facebook! So I normally don't promote other "tail makers" for obvious reasons, but I wanted to shout out to Robert Short. A truly amazing artist whom I respect and look up to. This man, Robert Short, was the man who created the original mermaid tail(s) used in the Disney, Touchstone, world famous movie, "Splash", featuring Daryl Hannah.

http://www.robertshort.com/splashcinemag.html (http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.robertshort.com%2Fsplashc inemag.html&h=pAQGzSaUO&s=1)

Robert Short (http://www.robertshort.com/splashcinemag.html)
www.robertshort.com (http://www.robertshort.com/splashcinemag.html)

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4 (https://www.facebook.com/shares/view?id=557988514292790)Like (https://www.facebook.com/mertailor) · · Share (https://www.facebook.com/ajax/sharer/?s=99&appid=2309869772&p%5B0%5D=130816216935969&p%5B1%5D=557988514292790&profile_id=130816216935969&share_source_type=unknown)

Now this went up after we had been home for about 5 days. We were all still high on the experience and Thom was still aglow. After this went up you were hit pretty hard with people defending Thom even though you said, “I was in no discrediting Thom Shouse”. Test results show that to be a lie, because we know better. After this, people began to put things like this in the comment string, “Everything I have ever read always said Thom Shouse was the "tailman' that created her tail. If Robert Short was the real genius behind it, I am very disappointed in that he has not been getting the credit 100% all of these years!”. You make no effort to defend Thom against those that now think he has stolen credit and what not over the years, you only defend yourself against those that see what you’re really doing. You said, “I normally don’t promote other “tail makers”. Well, you still don’t as far as I can tell. Mr. Short was the head, or whatever, of the team that created the tail but he doesn’t have a business doing so and, from what I can tell, he hasn’t.
It COULD have stopped with that comment string, we could have had our little tift on our end, complained amongst ourselves, and moved on, but then you did this:

The Mertailor Eric Ducharme (https://www.facebook.com/mertailor)
Public Figure · 47,266 Likes
This is EXACTLY what I woke up to this morning and nothing more. Nothing but one horrible sentence and my long response. Because I speak the truth and give credit where it is deserved, I get threatened. I absolutely refuse to receive a response like this from someone I respected for years. This may not be my battle to fight, but for crying out loud man, seriously. This is absolutely ridiculous.
I ...
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Was this necessary? This only made everyone so much angrier. This only poked the bear further. It’s been questioned as to whether Thom actually sent that message, but that’s beside the point. He is known to be a VERY emotional man, and he was upset, so I wouldn’t have blamed him for sending it. You should have left it private, but you didn’t and now there are 194 “likes” on the thread and 110 comments. Many of the Comments attack Thom directly and question his character as a person. They call him a crack head and a hater, question his abilities as an artist, call him a crotchety old man, and more. You just let the bile spill. Some people even now think that he doesn’t want ANYONE making tails. Nothing could be further from the truth. He encouraged, and continues to do so, many tail makers at the latest event. Made friends with them, gave advice, and was ecstatic that the industry was in good hands for the future.
All this started out in the guise of giving Robert Short “the credit he deserves”. Well, that’s nice and all, but he already has it, HAD had it. It’s on the credits on the film. It’s on IMDB, not Thoms name, Roberts name! Anyone at any time who ever questioned Thoms legitimacy could look up Robert Short, the history of the film, and get the information. You’ve made it sound as though Thom goes around saying it is ONLY he that created the tail, and that’s not the case. One person on your page went so far as to say “The Lie of Thom is over”. What lie? You made no effort to clarify the truth, again you just let the bile spill, only defending yourself. If over the years people have begun to assume that he created the tail, it’s not Thoms fault. He worked on the team! He’s the one that made tail making a career and made it possible for mermaid dreams to come true. Not Robert. Michelangelo didn’t paint the Sistine Chapel alone. He had assistants and helpers. You think 30 years later, there weren’t people walking around saying they painted it too? You think there weren’t other artists in that church that use that as the basis for further work?
If Robert Short wants recognition from the Mer community, Heck, it’s his. However, he hasn’t been here for the community for the past 30 years, certainly not the way Thom has. Robert did “Splash” and, by what I can see, walked away. Thom did other things too, of course, but he made himself the “Tail Man”. If this guy wants to be a part of things, he’s going about it the wrong way. For instance, that darn picture of Robert in the water that Thom put as himself. You two made that the cornerstone of your little argument for a minute. You even went so far as to create a fake account to post about it on MerNetwork. A fake account because your normal ones are banned due to your behavior. I wouldn’t be surprised if you have several actually. You make it sound so innocent, as though you’re just speaking for Robert for a little mistake to be fixed, but you can practically taste the condescension coming off that message. Yes, you make it sound innocent but then there is this little gem that was tagged on the bottom of one of your e-mails:

Delusional? He made a mistake, that’s it. “Believers?” What the heck does that even mean? Makes me wonder what you and Roberts’s conversations have contained. If you’re his only information source, makes me wonder what he’s been told.
You have over 47,000 “fans” and you used that base to passive aggressively attack one of the sweetest men I have ever met, who only recently is able to walk under his own power, and FINALLY getting some confidence back. You quite literally kicked an old man as he’s just getting back up on his feet! He peacefully lives a modest existence, in a modest home with his wife, doing what he loves to do and he wants to be left alone in peace and harmony doing it. When my wife first went to his house and she tried on one of his tails, they sat and cried tears of joy together. After all these years, every tail counts, every mermaid is special. Your emotional connection stops when the check clears. Bet.
That concludes the basic information of how we got here portion. Now onto the not so kind part.
All this crap and you’re coming next year’s festival? Why? You don’t want to be part of the community, you said it yourself. Here in an e-mail: “I will never be apart of your community by choice”, and here just last night, “I am so happy that I am not part of a much larger circle of individuals!”. Those individuals are the very ones at the festival! Are you not exposed enough? Do you need more places to go make a donkey of yourself? You seem to be making every effort to not avoid the community, but to BE the community. You’re not interested in a “Mermaid Community” you’re only after a “Mertailor Community”. Heck, you get banned from Mernetwork so you just go and create your own? How narcissistic can one person be? How about being a decent human being and turning around the behavior that got you banned to begin with? Mernetwork has been around for over 4 years and you’re out there posting your forum crap like you’re the first one to think of it. What is the purpose? For people to have another place to talk about……you? For all your fans and yes-wo/men may tell you, you are not the “be all end all”. Your boyfriend is over on the festival page, kissing butt and buttering up people the likes of which I’ve never seen. It’s fricking sad man. I’ve never seen so many smiley faces. I start to read it, but then I have to change screens. That much cholesterol is likely to give my computer processor problems. Does he lay the groundwork for your arrival on scene? Is he the Antichrist laying the ground work for the arrival of the Devil? Making sure everything is smooth and attitudes have calmed.
The organizer of the festival is stuck in absolutely horrible position. He’s got to do everything he can to play the middle or not at all. Meanwhile many people aren’t just concerned, there freaking terrified that you’re going to show up. Your reputation precedes you even further than I knew before all this Robert Short business. No one’s going to say anything because they don’t want to be the bad guy. So many people are scared of you, scared enough that they won’t stand up for themselves for fear of the retribution you have wreaked on others in the past. Everyone wants to avoid it; want’s it all to go away, but doing that always ends you back in the same place. Enter me. I don’t mind being the bad guy. Not one bit.
So in the line of me being the bad guy, I have said all that above, to say this: Go away dude. Leave my wife alone. Leave Thom alone. Do not write, e-mail, text, call, or send a dang smoke signal to either. There is nothing you can say to either of them, so don’t bother. And stop just randomly e-mailing people that you’ve had issue with in the past. People that didn’t message you to begin with, nor have responded to you, yet you keep contacting. It’s fracking strange. How do you even find time to make tails? You are a cancer to this community, and I mean Mer’s period. And just like cancers, it cannot be avoided; it must be confronted and cut out. So take your tail, be happy with your 47,000 “fans”, the pod that you have, the business that you’ve built, your little snippet on the T.V., and go home.
Now, since I know that you’re probably going to post this or make some kind of public cry of “see how I’m treated?” or “look at this horrible e-mail, I was only…..”. Let me say this to the trolls out there. I could not give the slightest crap about your opinion of me. This message is on me. It has nothing to do with my wife, Thom, or anyone else. I am a ticked off husband and friend who has had enough of a little boys crap, and it’s time for him to man up and take some medicine. So, with that being said…….Bring it.

[kudzu80]

https://www.facebook.com/torleif.karlson

[Elle]

I took me a very long time to read all of that....and I kept losing my spot.

[Mermaid Dottie]

*standing ovation*(Well, as standing as you can get while treading water)

[Mermaid Lilium]

*high five to the battlestar galactica reference and overall post* here, here! =)

I think it's always been fairly telling that when I first discovered mermaiding, after only watching a couple of videos, I ended up on a video of a news report about a woman who had paid eric for a tail and never got the tail or her money back. I think my opinion was formed that day lol. I do agree with what others have said - words are great an' all. But they're nothing but air - actions speak louder than words. So I hope, rather than expect, to be pleasently suprised one day and see eric's behaviour change for good. I would happily talk to him and take him on face value if he was to come BUT if he starts acting like a bully, or like he's better than me etc etc. BOY would he hear about it right there and then, infront of EVERYONE (and probably rather loudly :'D Don't mess with an outspoken redhead heh). I won't put up with bullies or bigots or stand by and watch them hurt others. I tend to stay on the fence with the online drama mostly, just because there tends to be lots of back-and-forth, with people giving as good as they get. But at something like merpalooza or merfest, there are people who form prime targets for bullying who don't have the kinda voice or confidence to stand up for themselves, people who online would dissapear off the edges of a bully's radar.

[Merman Arion]

@ Kudzu80

Can I have your autograph? :D

Best post I read this morning (French time zone) since I woke up!

Just wow! I really hope that this encourage people to come forward and tell/share their opinion about Eric and his real attitude to the community. This crap last long enough, I believe it's friggin' time to stand up and confront this cancer.

I look forward to see Eric's reaction after this. How he's gonna act will tell us a lot about his so-called "I'm a better man, I deserve to come" acting. Although to be honest, Matty did all the talking on the NCMerfest page so not much can really be said against him. Yet. Curious question though : does this guy ever work?? He sure has a lot of free time to play fake in our Facebook group. Methinks Eric's business isn't doing that well after all.


Envoyé de mon iPhone à l'aide de Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[AniaR]

I met Kudzo80 at Merfest, here's the public post he's referring to: https://www.facebook.com/torleif.karlson/posts/1440915016141373?stream_ref=10 if you wanted to see the whole unedited for mernetwork thing. I encouraged him to do his best to edit it up for mernetwork rules ;)

Also, some of the things hes quoting are directly from emails I received within the last few weeks, which I can post in full or screencap or whatever if people think it's made up.

I think Kudzo pretty much nails it spot on *why* people were upset about the Thom VS Robert thing... Robert also came on his wife's facebook and made a few posts clarifying, and it certainly seemed like some of the "issues" went over his head and he didn't realize how much was actually being said/going on. I really wanted to post my perspective of that drama and the emails and screenshots I have etc... but I'm just so exhausted from real life to want to waste so much of it and effort on that right now -_-

There was a fake account back during the merpalooza threads that made fun of Merman Angel calling him "Puff the magic dragon" and everyone got upset. So I guess we know who that fake account really was now. (I recently hunted down the threads to provide the new person who is taking over merpalooza with some insight into complaints from past years)

Anyway there's a lot more I'd like to say on this matter but I have a busy day. I am sure when I come home there will be lots of drama and posts lol.

[PearlieMae]

Kudzo80: :hail:

[deepblue]

Thanks for linking, Raina- I'd just read the post and wondered where the original was. Kudzu, right on. Also, your FB cover photo is <3. I love that so many of us have partners who not only get what we do and what we love but support it so vehemently.

[Merman Arion]

Kudzo80: :hail:

No, no, no. More like this, Pearlie ;)

http://i.imgur.com/kjlpa.gif

[PearlieMae]

Exactly!!!!!

[Mer_Adella]

@ Kudzu80

you sir....are amazing. I turned off my music stopped doing my work just to read what you wrote. And I applaud you sir. And you are correct that there are a lot that are scared, frightened, worried, etc about going to MerFest and running into Eric and Matty and what will happen. I hope he takes a good hard read with that email and realizes that "oh crap, they know EVERYTHING!"

I am curious what he will post on FB or his forum about that. I'm sure that we will know by the end of the day. And if he really (REALLY) is trying to change his attitude around for the better....then he should ignore it and not post a thing. Only time will tell

Again, I applaud you sir.

[kudzu80]

Thanks everybody, seriously! I hope more people will begin to get more vocal. If not, come tell me what he did and get behind me. I'll take it from there. I really don't care what he or his supporters have to say. If he messages me I probably won't even read it. No point in giving him any more time than I already have. If he really wants to prove change, he stop talking about it, and do it. Open apologies and admittance to his behavior and deeds would be a dang good start....
Never know how much I cuss until I have to cull it..... :-)

[Ariadne]

Excellent use of words! You hit the nail on the head, especially in regards to people thinking twice about attending next year...my thoughts weren't so much worrying about being offended by him or his people (or their smiley faces) as much as mers I personally would like to meet and get to know refusing to attend because he is there. THAT will really burn my biscuits! To spend that much money to attend an event and find out that most of the folks that I would love to see won't show up? Because of idiotic behavior from someone who really shouldn't have been allowed in the first place? Grrr...

And Kudzu, your wife is one lucky woman! My husband would feel the exact same way...but he doesn't use his words. He was an Army Ranger for 22 years. If we do decide to attend next year, and idiots start being idiots, he will take care of the problem. And there will be no discussion, no warnings and no deals. And I just don't have that much bail money...

[Mer_Adella]

Excellent use of words! You hit the nail on the head, especially in regards to people thinking twice about attending next year...my thoughts weren't so much worrying about being offended by him or his people (or their smiley faces) as much as mers I personally would like to meet and get to know refusing to attend because he is there. THAT will really burn my biscuits! To spend that much money to attend an event and find out that most of the folks that I would love to see won't show up? Because of idiotic behavior from someone who really shouldn't have been allowed in the first place? Grrr...

And Kudzu, your wife is one lucky woman! My husband would feel the exact same way...but he doesn't use his words. He was an Army Ranger for 22 years. If we do decide to attend next year, and idiots start being idiots, he will take care of the problem. And there will be no discussion, no warnings and no deals. And I just don't have that much bail money...

LOL if I can get the $ to go, and that happens, I will donate :)

at least your honey stands up for you. I'm having issues with my BF's friend right now. In Michigan we are having one HE*L of a snow season. He showed me how to use the tractor to plow our driveway. His friend who used to do it for us always bitches at me for not doing it right. This morning, the friend asked me how the driveway looked. I told him that we had 5 inches covering the whole thing. He said he would be over to plow (using our tractor since our plow truck [that is at his house] hasn't ran all season). I texted a pic of our convo to my boyfriend and my boyfriend told me to tell his friend that I would do it. I got some nasty comments back from the friend about how I don't clean up the lines, and I push it in the wrong spots, and all that. I told my BF about what he said and my bf told me to let it go. Deal with it. Ignore it. I'm getting fed up with having to "let it go". His friend is basically treating me like I do everything wrong. I want my BF to get in his face and tell him off as this has been an ongoing problem for a long time now. Either he should or I will and trust me it won't be pretty if I will. I have had to "deal with it" for almost 6 months now. Soon the locks will be changed and I will tell him that if he doesn't start treating me with respect and understand that he is SUPPOSED to help me out while my Bf works on the road that the cops will be called every time that he comes onto the property without prior warning. sorry for the rant.

[Ariadne]

Oh no, dollface. Sounds like it's past time for what I like to call a come-to-Jesus meeting with your honey. He needs to be reminded who butters his bread for him, and if he prefers to "let things go" with his buddy rather than acknowledge your feelings and deal with the situation, then you should suggest he take his bread over to his buddy's house the next time he wants it buttered. You do not have time for such nonsense.

[PearlieMae]

Oh no, dollface. Sounds like it's past time for what I like to call a come-to-Jesus meeting with your honey. He needs to be reminded who butters his bread for him, and if he prefers to "let things go" with his buddy rather than acknowledge your feelings and deal with the situation, then you should suggest he take his bread over to his buddy's house the next time he wants it buttered. You do not have time for such nonsense.

^ THIS! :clap:

[Mer_Adella]

Oh no, dollface. Sounds like it's past time for what I like to call a come-to-Jesus meeting with your honey. He needs to be reminded who butters his bread for him, and if he prefers to "let things go" with his buddy rather than acknowledge your feelings and deal with the situation, then you should suggest he take his bread over to his buddy's house the next time he wants it buttered. You do not have time for such nonsense.

I seriously thought I was the only one that used "come to jesus" reference. lol. this made me laugh as far as the "butter his bread" lol. a lot of people have told me that but i can say that no matter how many times I talk to him bout it, he just tells me that he has witnessed me get into fights and come out with a bloody nose but as the victor and why should he stand up for me.

Like i siad it was just a hard day today, and Iam tired of dealing with his shit, and if i have to stand toe to toe with this guy that's fine. And if my bf gets mad ya know what...you weren't going to stand up for me...so my other personality did.! ha! that was a joke cus us gemini's are supposedly two people trapt in one body.

[kudzu80]

LOL, Ariadne, My thoughts exactly. I'm a word smith when I'm ticked, but I don't take anyones crap especially in person. I wasn't a Ranger, didn't go anywhere, did nothing special, but I was in the Infantry for a hot second. That coupled with my upbringing leaves me with little patience for bullies. I've gotten myself in some pretty interesting situations standing up for others, and I just. do. not. back. down. I am very reticent about going to Merfest. Why use my vacation time and money just to fly to another coast knowing the situation I'm walking into? No thank you. I'm really not a violent person and prefer to stay away from any situation that doesn't directly and immediately need my physical attention.
Thank you very much for your kind words!

[kudzu80]

Well, I heard back from Matt today. Sorry, but I refuse to call a grown man "Matty" or "Mattie" or whatever. Anyone care to see the discussion?

[AniaR]

Go for it. I mean I can always post the emails I got I just didnt want a big drama mob coming after me. But people seem to be taking it all in stride...

[kudzu80]

Conversation started today
1:00pm
Matthew Ryan Christopher Quijano
I just wanted to let you know that there is no hard feelings for anything said or done, and I can understand you protecting your wife!
Stand by her! She is lucky to have someone that will stand by her!
And I know I use a lot of smiley faces lol I'm actually a really happy person, and it's a BAAAAAD habit!
But Eric and I don't have any ill feelings toward you or your wife.
We hope to see and meet you guys at MerFest!
-Matty

1:32pm
Torleif Karlson
You've actually met my wife. And Im not concerned with your feelings towards me or her. I don't think you fully understand or grasp just how little I care about your opinion. I have no reason to be concerned with such. It is known that you two have a habit of playing nice, apologizing, kissing ass, when you finally cross a line, only to pick up your former behavior later. I have nothing to be ashamed of or to apologize for. I surmised the situation and told the truth. I have recieved a surprising outpouring of support for doing so. I hope others begin to speak up in light of my example. You will most likely not be meeting us at Merfest, not if you two are in attendance. I will not spend the money or time to walk into such a situation. If Thom wants to still attend, then we will go with him as I will not leave him to such a situation on his own. We will be there for his emotional as well as physical security.
Can Eric not speak for himself? I see no honor in a man who must hide behind others when he is called out on the carpet. If there is anything to be done to assuage my feelings, he can start by getting all those horrible comments about Thom off of his page that his fans have made, and make a public apology for things going as they have. I.E. insinuating that Thom had nothing to do with Splash, when he did. Making it seem like Thom was just some old asshole stealing credit, when he's not. And letting the horrible statements about Thom and his character continue to flow, only defending his own actions. The only time Eric stepped in is one person offered physical violence as a solution.
I'm not won over so easily with nicey nice. You want me to change my opinion? Earn it.

1:41pm
Matthew Ryan Christopher Quijano
I am the same as you, I do not care about your opinion of me. I am simply trying to state that, in your efforts, there has been nothing taken personally. You have every right to feel as you do, and as do I.

1:44pm
Matthew Ryan Christopher Quijano
We are trying to put negativity behind us and look forward as we have many things to look forward to, so I am just reaching out and putting positive energy forward. I expect nothing in return but one can only hope.
And I do not try to win people over, that is in no way my intention, I have no reason to win anyone in the mermaid community over, as I would not benefit from it. I'm not a mermaid, I am not a merman. I am simply spending the rest of my life with one.
And Eric can stand and speak up for himself, he just has chosen to not involve himself with any negativity.
In what way would it benefit him to converse with you and other like you? It wouldn't. It would only distract him from what's important. His work. And our lives.

1:47pm
Matthew Ryan Christopher Quijano
And I believe I met you wife but only for a split moment, I don't consider that meeting, a meeting to me is definable by have an actual conversation and knowing what is inside someones head. And I do hope we will all have that opportunity, as you and your wife may be able to see that common conception of Eric and I are actually false. But that will all come in time.
And if you do not go to MerFest, because of our presence that is regrettable, and as for Thom, we have no problem with Thom Shouse. We have no reason to dislike or have ill will towards him. Everything between Eric and Thom is in the past, which is where it should stay. But if you feel the need to be his "security" then more power to you.
I do hope you both the best, and I wish you well!

1:53pm
Matthew Ryan Christopher Quijano
And a point I do try to make to everyone is, if there are any questions I am more than happy to answer them, I am not the kind of person t alter information, I will answer it truthfully and factually. Eric has learned to do the same. So if you have any questions about previous actions, situations, heresay, or behavior on our part or any other persons behalf, please inquire and we will give you an honest answer. We have nothing to hide.
So if there is anything you'd like to know, I am all ears.

4:03pm
Torleif Karlson
Those are some very pretty words, but that's really all they are isn't it. If Eric isn't willing to face his actions head on, even against "someone like" me, that is not avoiding negativity, that is called cowardice. Not the actions of a man, but the behavior of a petulant child. Don't even bother now because no boy grows a set over night.
It's very easy for the perpetrator to put the past behind them, people find Jesus in prison every day. The victim still lives with the actions.
If you do see us at Merfest, just keep your distance, we have no desire for any further interaction. There are many people wondering if they will go or not, I'm just the only one willing to say it right now.
You seem to be the kind of fella that likes to have the last word, so just so you know, I'm done after this. Do not contact my wife or Thom, for any reason, neither of you have any business speaking their name. Right the negative comments left by others on Eric's page, and go away. There is nothing more to say to each other here. Goodbye and may the Fates visit upon both of you, that which you deserve.

[lynsea]

You keep a level head and are well written; admittedly not something I would be very good at in this sort of situation.

[AniaR]

Never any accountability and its always "leave it in the past" right after drama....

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[Echidna]

In what way would it benefit him to converse with you and other like you? It wouldn't. It would only distract him from what's important.




Lovely xD
But never too busy to troll with fake accounts, or post on FB :p

For once I'm grateful I'm not in the US and will never be able to attend Merfest...

[Merman Arion]

Matty : now I use a lot of smiley faces lol I'm actually a really happy person, and it's a BAAAAAD habit!

No kidding. And by the look at it, it sounds very fake.

(FYI, all comments can be found in the NCMerfest group. Context has been hidden to protect people's private FB accounts.)

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The last one is actually interesting. I know from A VERY RELIABLE source that Eric didn't speak two words to Christomer during his visite, Matt did all the talking. I do not care what has been exchanged there, I'm already glad that the moray eels didn't bite our Merking and that he came back home alive.

This could actually make another good drinking game.
Everytime Matty write "LMFAO" or "LOL", go get yourself a drink and you will be able to put up with shitty things for the day.


Matty : I do not try to win people over, that is in no way my intention, I have no reason to win anyone in the mermaid community over, as I would not benefit from it.

Suuuuuure you do ;)

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Matty : Eric can stand and speak up for himself, he just has chosen to not involve himself with any negativity. In what way would it benefit him to converse with you and other like you? It wouldn't. It would only distract him from what's important. His work. And our lives.

Actually, you meant his fame and wealth, right? I do wonder why he has chosen to not involve himself... Perhaaaaps because it all come from HIS negative BS actions??
Good dog, Eric. You know how to bark at people when you feel it's necessary to make you feel better but when consequences face you, you sure likes to run away with the tail between your legs. Matty is doing a good job making (fake) excuses for you.


Matty : And a point I do try to make to everyone is, if there are any questions I am more than happy to answer them, I am not the kind of person that alter information.

Riiiiight. You are the kind of of person that alter internet accounts from here and there. Bravo! :clap:
How is Abyssalmer by the way? Had a nice tea chat with him recently?

[AniaR]

How is Abyssalmer by the way? Had a nice tea chat with him recently?

LOL


Well, a year is a long time. I'll be seriously surprised if they keep up the "good" act for a whole year. To me, it's more the principle. Drama and arguing is one thing, but I have so much evidence of these guys actually terrorizing people specifically Thom. There is so much more Thom drama than just the recent. Thom was sharing with some of us his long long history with Eric which started when he tried to mentor him as a kid. I just think, it's insulting to Thom right after all of this to have them going on and on about merfest where he will be the main speaker. I also feel, it's like they say sorry to a handful of people insincerely and suddenly it wipes away years and years of insane behaviour. Why does the community keep putting these guys and their millionth chances above other people's safety and peace of mind? :( but if one of us did anything like what they did, it would be a huge fallout. Could you imagine what would happen if I made a bunch of fake accounts on here to argue with someone and was caught and proven, and I expected the community to leave it in the past? Could you imagine what would happen if Jesse or Raven publicly argued with a tail client and posted all their personal info? Could you imagine what would happen of Arion punched a photographer? Or if Iona made a sincere threat against a mer's safety who lives by her publicly? I just don't think we'd ever in a million years accept ANY of these behaviours in the slightest from anyone else.

Like I said, I'm more than happy to be proven wrong because at the end of the day that means less drama and stress for the community. But I also wonder what it says about us that collectively we continue to allow this over and over and over.... and why are we bending over backwards to be fair to people who never accept accountability or make any effort to actually physically make amends. It's really sad I think. Just my opinion. I feel like there's so much more I can say.

So we'll see what happens in the course of 2014...

[Merman Arion]

So we'll see what happens in the course of 2014...

Yeah... Let's see.

http://media3.onsugar.com/files/2013/08/12/817/n/1922398/b8da4d983b2b1a68_tumblr_mqjp7zZtaR1rha2euo1_500.xx xlarge.gif

[AniaR]

I found this quote and I find it applicable to a lot of mer-drama

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1/7737_302481976567248_1343189441_n.jpg

[Ariadne]

Ugh...those emails and postings...did anyone else get a massive headache from reading all that? I can't imagine having to see it in person...

[Mermaid Isabel(:]

Wait did I just read that right? Did Raina say punch a photographer?! I don't know anything about the Eric Matt drama that has happened but I have gathered enough to see that they are people that cause drama and conflict wherever they go. I'm very disappointed. I didn't have a tail so I couldn't go to merpalooza or merfest and nobody knows if merpalooza will happen this summer and merfest was my only shot to really meet a variety of other mers and not feel like a weirdo for being the only one in a tail. I hope that this problem is resolved whether it be everyone telling Eric and Matt they're not welcome or perhaps enough "Eric fans" will come that they can entertain him and vice versa and the rest of the mers that aren't fans can keep their distance. I think we're all adults here and we can handle playing nice. But it is added stress that people don't want and money they don't want to waste. It's a shame two people can ruin a whole event. :(

[PearlieMae]

Wow! A lot happens when you're down with a cold and are making monofin modifications...

I did find a photo of Eric and Matty, though...
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[Mermaid Dottie]

EDIT:^ROFLROFL^:lol ^:

Well, I thoroughly intend to be at NCMerfest 2015, and I also don't intend to allow anyone to ruin my first ever event. and if I see any bullying or cruelty of any kind, you can bet I won't just tread water and let it happen.

[Elle]

Wow! A lot happens when you're down with a cold and are making monofin modifications...

I did find a photo of Eric and Matty, though...
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Which one is which?

[PearlieMae]

I realize now that you might have to be of a certain age to get the joke, but initially, Eric on the left, Matt on the right.

"Of a certain age" is a gentler way of saying "older than dirt". ;)

[Mermaid Dottie]

When I see those two, I always think of Daffy's Fantastic Island, With Speedy Gonzales, and that cheeky wishing well. <3 I loved that show.

[SeaGlass Siren]

i must be pretty damn old then. i just got the reference lol

[Elle]

I realize now that you might have to be of a certain age to get the joke, but initially, Eric on the left, Matt on the right.

"Of a certain age" is a gentler way of saying "older than dirt". ;)

I know who they are. I just wanted to be sure. :)

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

[Mermaid Adriel]

Wow! A lot happens when you're down with a cold and are making monofin modifications...

I did find a photo of Eric and Matty, though...
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XD :lol::rotfl:

[lynsea]

With the recent posts about "buying" fans on fb, I looked up the stats for the page of our #1 creator of drama... most popular city for likes: Bangkok, Thailand... hmm.

[AniaR]

Oh yeah we've already been discussing this in detail. Totally fake

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[Ariadne]

Dang, why can't a bunch of Bangkokians like my page? Waaaah...

[Winged Mermaid]

Speaking of.. I saw something on Tumblr and I just had to post it here XP

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[Merman Arion]

Speaking of.. I saw something on Tumblr and I just had to post it here XP

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http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Y_ODcECzxGQ/T4sMKffGa8I/AAAAAAAAA88/LnQ8Dvynqbg/s1600/michael-scott-no.gif

[Mermaid Adriel]

OMG O.O@Arion well said xD

[deepblue]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Y_ODcECzxGQ/T4sMKffGa8I/AAAAAAAAA88/LnQ8Dvynqbg/s1600/michael-scott-no.gif


:rotfl:

[PearlieMae]

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